My non-melee PCs feel ineffective. Help?

[Kazyan]

I'm running 3.5, the players are ECL 3 or 4, and last session, two of them got upset over the dominance of the melee characters. They take issue with the fact that they are A) ineffective in combat, and that B) hitting things hard seems to be solving a lot of encounters.

Here's the roster. The first two at the ones with the complaint.


Dark Whisper Gnome Swordsage 2, based on Iaijutsu Focus and with a limited version of Attack on Titan 3-d gear.
Warforged Rogue 1/Artificer 2 with an Item Familiar and a small stock of scrolls
Goliath Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrash Fighter 2 with a homebrew exotic weapon that improves bull rushing
Wild Half Orc....I don't even know the classes, but he has +lots to Strength and carries a Huge greatsword. (Died last session to a group of Tucker-esque kobolds; replaced by Synad Erudite 3.)


I personally disagree with the idea that all of my encounters have been solved by hitting things hard--according to one player, they've been highly variable--but that doesn't matter if the non-melee players are feeling ineffective anyway.

Any ideas on how to mix things up so that encounters cannot be solved by simply walking up the enemy and hitting them with a big weapon? Randomly picking monsters for random encounters seems to be resulting in a lot of "walk up and attack" enemies, which is probably contributing the problem.

[Kesnit]

Social encounters.

Monsters too powerful to "just walk up and attack."

Multiple enemy encounters (spaced out so one PC cannot stand there and whack them all).

[hicegetraenk]

There's plenty of possibilities to prevent that. Some ideas:

- Use terrain to the enemies advantage. Standing on higher ground makes melee more difficult or even completely impossible (if standing on a balcony and raining arrows from above for example)
- Make melee difficult, trip / grapple players that are near your monsters
- Prevent direct charges by placing enemies behind obstacles
[...]

[Tiki Snakes]

...So, wait. Isn't Dark Whisper Gnome one of those races usually used in high-op builds? And Iaijutsu one of those things you can in theory twink out with a careful bit of optimising in order to get huge bonuses to something?

Sounds like a case of envy at not being the most optimised beat-stick, really. Which is hilarious given he's playing a swordsage who is a good couple of tiers above the two who are supposedly a problem.

And the other one is playing, what? A Rogue/Artificer? That's...eh. I'm no expert, but that sounds pretty strongly low-op.

Is it possible that the two players who are moaning are simply not very good? I mean, they're complaining about being outshone by a fighter with decent damage numbers and an Orc who died in battle. I really doubt the problem lies with the other two players or the encounters themselves.

If this is even remotely true, the last thing you want to do is ramp up the challenge of the encounters so the fighter doesn't shine anymore.

[Flickerdart]

If your encounters start and end at "you see [quantity] of [monster]" then there's not much you can do about avoiding boot to the head as the victory condition. In the best encounters, there's a goal that you must reach, and the monsters are in your way. The monsters are not, themselves, the goal. Some random ideas off the top of my head:

Stealth is the name of the game: the enemy is simply too numerous to face head-on. Consider letting the brutes draw enemy attention while the other two slip around and do a number on the true target of the mission.
Your opponents aren't your enemies. If bureaucratic red tape is what's preventing you from getting what you want, smashing heads just gets you jail time.
Enemies that are flying, attacking from across difficult terrain, or otherwise difficult to keep pinned down harass the party, striking and retreating. A lot of fey are quite good for this. Laying a trap or simply outrunning them are both good ways of handling this sort of thing.

[JungleChicken]

...So, wait. Isn't Dark Whisper Gnome one of those races usually used in high-op builds? And Iaijutsu one of those things you can in theory twink out with a careful bit of optimising in order to get huge bonuses to something?

Sounds like a case of envy at not being the most optimised beat-stick, really. Which is hilarious given he's playing a swordsage who is a good couple of tiers above the two who are supposedly a problem.

And the other one is playing, what? A Rogue/Artificer? That's...eh. I'm no expert, but that sounds pretty strongly low-op.

Is it possible that the two players who are moaning are simply not very good? I mean, they're complaining about being outshone by a fighter with decent damage numbers and an Orc who died in battle. I really doubt the problem lies with the other two players or the encounters themselves.

If this is even remotely true, the last thing you want to do is ramp up the challenge of the encounters so the fighter doesn't shine anymore.

I'm wondering why a dark whisper gnome with +16 to hide, +10 on move silently, Hide in plain sight, and a 40 foot base land speed is doing... Just on those alone he should be able to establish some battlefield dominance or at least relevance.

[Kazyan]

So:
- Social encounters. Either red tape or monsters too powerful to just sword to death. I already have an idea.
- Multiple enemies, probably ranged and spread out
- Terrain difficulties
- Trips, grapples, disarms, etc..
- Stealth missions
- Hit-and-run monsters, probably with traps

Regarding "you see X quantity of Y and they attack you", I usually only do that when the PCs are fast-traveling and I need a random encounter to pull out of a Manual for padding, or of one of them is just looking for a random fight or job. Most of the time, they've been after a certain goal.

Regarding the Dark Whisper Gnome, he's able to autowin at hiding and everything, but not much else. It's no fun not getting hit if you can't actually use that for anything--his to-hit is, like, +2.

[Flickerdart]

Regarding the Dark Whisper Gnome, he's able to autowin at hiding and everything, but not much else. It's no fun not getting hit if you can't actually use that for anything--his to-hit is, like, +2.
A to-hit of +2 isn't too bad when you can craft alchemist's fire and throw it at dudes' touch AC for sneak attack damage.

[Kazyan]

A to-hit of +2 isn't too bad when you can craft alchemist's fire and throw it at dudes' touch AC for sneak attack damage.

He doesn't do that. His strategy is as follows:

- Hide
- Draw shortsword, attack with Iaijutsu Focus and (insert maneuver here, usually the one that gives him two attack rolls). Do an amount of damage in the high single-digits.
- Keep either doing, like, 4 damage each turn with attacks, assuming he hits, which he usually doesn't.

[The Oni]

Sounds to me like the PCs are mad because they're not being very creative.

[Kazyan]

Sounds to me like the PCs are mad because they're not being very creative.

"I try to open the door."
"Something's resisting you." (It's a single kobold holding the door closed with an opposed strength check)
"God forbid a non-strength character do anything, sheesh."

Still, it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. It's a game, the game is supposed to be fun, and if it's not fun because someone's dominating, I have to change something regardless of if they're playing the game "right". It's my job as the DM. This thread is here to give me ideas.

[HammeredWharf]

It's pretty hard to "change something" when you've got badly-optimized characters in your group. It's a commendable attitude to have, but honestly, I'd tell the player it's his own fault his build is terrible and explain why it's terrible. If his only decent source of damage is Iajutsu Focus and he only uses it once per combat... yeah, not much the DM can do about it. Based on what you've described, his character would be outdone in combat by a lvl 1 fighter. Doesn't he have Shadow Blade? Something to make his damage higher?

[Sir Chuckles]

"I try to open the door."
"Something's resisting you." (It's a single kobold holding the door closed with an opposed strength check)
"God forbid a non-strength character do anything, sheesh."

Still, it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. It's a game, the game is supposed to be fun, and if it's not fun because someone's dominating, I have to change something regardless of if they're playing the game "right". It's my job as the DM. This thread is here to give me ideas.

This might be one of those situations where that's gonna be difficult. You can't force a player to be creative, and he built a character that's meant to be played creatively.

Nothing short of designing an entire encounter where melee is subpar and whoever is complaining is the only one to solve it, be it through skill checks, stealth, or some form of macguffin, is going to give them any satisfaction.
You're right about there being no "right" way to play, but tread careful, because there are wrong ways.

Definitely include a mental, non-dice rolling, encounter. Season it with a few stealth/disable device/bluff/whatever purely mechanical checks. Make them talk out of character.

Then decide if you should allow the complaining player to switch characters. I ahve a player who has tried three times to play a dedicated caster. B*tched and moaned about being useless every time. Now he only plays Monks and Barbarians. Has the time of his life.

[Kazyan]

Wharf: He does not have Shadow Blade. He took Extra Silence as his feat, and is planning on Quick Draw at 3rd level (so he can use his IJF and 3d gear more effectively), followed by Weapon Finesse at 6th. I've got an idea on how to help him out, though, in the next batch of treasure.

Chuckles: I'm definitely going to include an encounter with a CR "Too high" creature that just wants to talk and screw them out of something they earned, and they would have to talk their way out. Could include stealth and social checks and such to get though.

[Cyrion]

Start by asking them what they want to do in order to feel effective. I'm sure they had visions of the coolness of the build- if you know what those are you can start to tailor encounters so that they're feeling more included.

My favorite solutions to this have often been encounters or situations that have multiple objectives in play at once. The beaters get to pound on something while the sneaky types work on liberating something, reshaping the battlefield, etc. Everybody's participating and having fun and they have to rely on each other as a team.

[HammeredWharf]

Wharf: He does not have Shadow Blade. He took Extra Silence as his feat, and is planning on Quick Draw at 3rd level (so he can use his IJF and 3d gear more effectively), followed by Weapon Finesse at 6th. I've got an idea on how to help him out, though, in the next batch of treasure.

Yes, some magical Weapon of Dex to Damage might help. Additionally, Feycraft weapons give Weapon Finesse as a bonus. Extra Silence is a pretty bad feat, especially since it looks like he's going to focus on Iajutsu instead of Sneak Attack. I would talk to the player and try to get him to make a working build, but convenient loot is a pretty good way of handling the situation.

[ChaoticDitz]

Having a "badly" built character who can't hold his own mechanically: NOT a bad thing, in fact I love characters who are restricted this way.

Having said character in a party of "well" built characters: Bad. A party of characters who sacrifice mechanical "viability" (note how I'm putting all terms that are entirely subjective in quotes) for what they perceive as awesomeness is great, but a mixed party of mechanically stronger and mechanically weaker characters is a VERY bad thing, because it results in inevitable problems, be they either overshining, or if that character is the only one doing the job he does, then complaints about him not pulling his weight by other party members. Either way, there will be a dynamic issue.

And there is definitely one here. However, your mention of death at the hands of Tucker-esque Kobolds intrigues me, as he seems perfectly equipped to try to fight something like that. So, have encounters with mixed together big melee monsters, for the better-optimized guys to go after, while they're getting screwed from some other direction(s) by characters who either use technology, fast movement speed, or some other factor (you may need to get creative with that as time goes on) who has incredibly low health but is a huge player in terms of damage or debuffing in the fight, and can only be approached by somebody who can do so undetected due to previously mentioned fast movement speed, technology advantage, etc.. That should give him a chance to shine and be useful.

[Kazyan]

And there is definitely one here. However, your mention of death at the hands of Tucker-esque Kobolds intrigues me, as he seems perfectly equipped to try to fight something like that. So, have encounters with mixed together big melee monsters, for the better-optimized guys to go after, while they're getting screwed from some other direction(s) by characters who either use technology, fast movement speed, or some other factor (you may need to get creative with that as time goes on) who has incredibly low health but is a huge player in terms of damage or debuffing in the fight, and can only be approached by somebody who can do so undetected due to previously mentioned fast movement speed, technology advantage, etc.. That should give him a chance to shine and be useful.

Stratified encounters. That's a good idea, too.

Sidneote: I haven't read Tucker's Kobolds; I just threw together some traps and a bunch of intelligent 4th-level Kobold Warriors together, who are protecting a white dragon's lair in icy terrain.

Trap 1: Two kobolds with longspears at the front entrance. Getting close means you step on the ice and snow in front of them, which covers a pit. Kobolds are light enough to walk on the ice; bigger creatures aren't. The fighter fell into the pit the first time, which caused the encounter to be fairly difficult as no one would really deal with the kobolds.

Trap 2: Hard-packed snow and a narrow ice ramp to get to the next section. When someone started climbing, a kobold would use a Wand of Blockade to slide a big block of wood down. The kicker is that, when the block disappeared at the end of the 3-round duration, the block would disappear and the four kobolds' readied actions to shoot heavy crossbows would go off. This killed the half-orc and the party had to go back, take about 10 days of downtime for crafting and such, then come back.

Trap 3: After getting to the top of the ramp, there would be a door with slits in it. Getting close would mean kobolds would shove longspears through. If you get through the door anyway (a kobold was holding it closed), one would pull a lever that dumped 5d6 bludgeoning damage worth of snow in front of the door, then continue stabbing your exposed bits. The snow brought the fighter into negative HP, but everyone lived.

They haven't made it farther than that, but there's only like one trap after that, and then they can get to the dragon.

[Endarire]

I agree with the notion of talking with them out of character. If they have specific suggestions, let them be incorporated. Also, not everyone wants to fight.

What about things that are flying or far away or invisible or...?

Furthermore, you're also about level 3. Melee is pretty strong right now. Casters haven't gotten to the part where invisible, flying, teleporting death is standard, and if a melee guy can destroy a fight by just doing his standard job, that's him fulfilling his purpose. As Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) taught me, you can do one-shot or one-round damage to anything starting at ECL1, and still be versatile and effective enough to keep doing this throughout your entire D&D character's career.

When you say that melee feels effective and non-melee feels ineffective, what do you feel? What sort of tale and mechanics do you want to use?

[HunterOfJello]

Melee is stronger than spellcasting at low levels. The characters are all ECL 2-3. If a person was playing a wizard, they'd definitely feel insubstantial at those levels. Tell them to wait until they have a few more levels under their belt and they'll see the real benefit of begin something other than a beatstick.

[Red Fel]

Still, it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. It's a game, the game is supposed to be fun, and if it's not fun because someone's dominating, I have to change something regardless of if they're playing the game "right". It's my job as the DM. This thread is here to give me ideas.

I strongly disagree with this.

Your "job" as a DM is to create a universe. Constantly. To keep it evolving and engaging. That's no mean feat, but that's just the baseline.

Your "job" is to give the players an opportunity to do as they please, and an opportunity to be successful. That's only fair; throwing up walls and telling players they can't even try things robs them of agency, and hurts immersion.

Your "job" is not to coddle the ones who don't learn how to play their characters. And admittedly, I hate the phrase I just used. I really hate it. "Learn to play" smacks of the worst kinds of elitism and intellectual intolerance.

But you have a player, for example, who is playing what is arguably one of the most diverse, elegant, and multifaceted melee classes in all of 3.5 - the Swordsage - and he is using it to hit things repeatedly with his inferior attack, and then complaining that other people do it better.

If I have a character who took the flaw "I ain't got no arms" and then demanded to learn to use a rapier in my mouth with a -20 penalty, I would have no right to complain that the Fighter - with two arms, Power Attack, and a Greatsword - deals more damage than I do.

At a certain point, a good player realizes that he has a problem. He takes steps to address it - either change the character, roll a new character, or otherwise take the DM aside and ask what he can do to fix things. That is what your Gnome should be doing - figuring out why his character can't break 10 damage a round. A good player does not sit and complain that the other melees are better at their jobs; he figures out what they're doing, and what he can do to improve.
Sorry, done ranting.

What you need to be doing now is offering the players the chance to discuss what they feel isn't going right with their characters. Sit down and talk with them. Ask what they want to be doing, and brainstorm what they can do to get there.

If the players can tell you specifically what they want to do, then your "job," if that's how you see it, is to help them reach that goal. Offer them rebuilds. Suggest class combinations, feats or skills. Find a way to sneak them a magic item, as suggested above.

If, on the other hand, they simply say they want to be doing "more cool stuff than those other guys," they're being unrealistic and unproductive. I really, really get cheesed off when a player's natural reaction isn't "What can I do to improve," but "It's not fair that the people who actually studied and worked on their characters can do better than I can!"

... And it looks like I was ranting again. Ahem.

Regarding alternative encounters, such as social encounters, stealth, or puzzles, I agree that these are a good example of ways to give these characters an opportunity to shine. I'm not convinced, however, that you'll get any traction there; it sounds like the issue is a lack of creativity, at least on the Gnome's part. (Not to mention that Whisper Gnomes, if I recall, get a Cha penalty. That's going to hurt social rolls and Iaijutsu Focus.) Social encounters, puzzles, and stealth scenes require quick and lateral thinking, and a liberal dose of creativity.

I'd throw them a bone with these scenes, but if they underperform, it's really a problem about which you, as DM, can do nothing.

[Alent]

He doesn't do that. His strategy is as follows:

- Hide
- Draw shortsword, attack with Iaijutsu Focus and (insert maneuver here, usually the one that gives him two attack rolls). Do an amount of damage in the high single-digits.
- Keep either doing, like, 4 damage each turn with attacks, assuming he hits, which he usually doesn't.

How does his 3D maneuver device work? If it's anything like Shingeki no Kyojin, this guy is the only person in the party with what is for all intents and purposes either average or good flight (80 ft, special: max distance from adjacent surface of 80 ft.) why isn't he using flyby attack with his iai?

What's his weapon of choice?

What are his Maneuvers, and is he using each individual maneuver more than once per encounter without properly resetting? Is he using more than one maneuver period?

Is he aware that he's a level behind the party, and will catch up abruptly and become exponentially more powerful when he hits level 3 and he can buy off his LA to hit level 4? Maybe give him a special snowflake moment with strafing dire bat riders throwing alchemist's fire or something to help gratify his urge for relevance until he has assassin's stance to go with Sapphire Nightmare Blade and enough skill ranks to get his damage train going?

[Petrocorus]

I strongly ....... can do nothing.

I utterly agree with this post.

The two complaining players have classes that, after a few level will be way more versatile and powerful than the two others. Better talk to them about their build and their tactics. Maybe let them rebuilt their characters.

The artificer should be able to use Personal Weapon Augmentation (Bane) to improve his damage. Not to mention he already should have the best equipment.

They should all get master-work weapons thanks to him, and enough alchemical items to quite easily grenade their way through the traps you described. At least the 2 firsts. And for the third, did thy thought about shooting through the slits of the door, or burning the door, or trying to smoke the kobolds?

Actually, do they use ranged weapons?

And why does the artificer has taken a level of Rogue? For the Sneak Attack?

BTW, what book the 3D gear is from? And are Dark Whisper Gnomes different from Whisper Gnomes?

[Firechanter]

Ugh, please dont appease them. If they are already taking the most ridiculously op races (whisper gnome) or T1 classes and still suck compared to a Fighter, ~they~ are doing it wrong, not you.

[Alent]

BTW, what book the 3D gear is from? And are Dark Whisper Gnomes different from Whisper Gnomes?

I don't know how he's homebrewed it, but the 3D maneuvering device is from Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan), a manga series that got a popular two cour anime last year.

The basic idea of it is they fight 11~15 meter tall giants, and so they use what amounts to twin hookshots that hang from their hips to grapple walls, gain speed, and pull themselves past the giants at high speed, attacking the creature's necks with high speed attacks. (The best warriors use Iaido, but the draw doesn't do anything for the swing at all, it's just culture gratification.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK392VchgKo For a general idea of the way the thing works.

[Kazyan]

Norren: It's not in any book, but the player bugged me about getting a homebrew for it, based on something else from GitP. It involves Balance checks, using the grappling hook as an improvised harpoon against stuff, and some other undefined things that we'll get to when he picks up Quick Draw and can shoot hooks around as a move action instead of two move actions (one to draw, one to throw).

Weapon of choice is Non-masterwork shortsword.

He's using maneuvers as per the rules. Here they are: Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Blade Technique, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Clinging Shadow Strike, Burning Blade. He only uses the ones that involve a sword slash.

---

Petrocorus: Artificer mostly crafts scrolls, and hasn't been able to use the Bane thing much. They have no alchemical items. They solved Trap 1 by triggering it, killing the kobolds, and crossing. They solved Trap 2 by putting a Silent Image at the top of the ramp, climbing up, and then killing the kobolds at the top. They solved Trap 3 when the Erudite put his psicrystal through the slit, the kobold bent down to pick it up, then they burst through hand killed the kobolds (and triggered the snow trap, knocking the fighter down to negatives).

Only the Artificer uses ranged weapons. Specifically, a crossbow.

The artificer wanted to do a "rogue-ificer".

---

Red Fel: I will say that you've hit on a sore spot for that player; he does indeed think it's not fair that an optimized character does better. I will throw some new encounters at them, but I'm wondering if it will work...in the same session in which the complaint came up, the Whisper Gnome had participated in a prison break, where his stealth was so powerful that the guards could stare directly at him--manacles rattling and everything--and be completely confused at the nothing that was there. He broke out with no violence. He showed some creativity in creating diversions and such while basically invisible, though.

[Ziegander]

Okay, the whispergnome, if focused on Iaijutsu should be dealing way more than single digit damage. On a result as low as 10, when using a maneuver and attacking, even if he has no strength bonus, is still 3d6 damage, an average of 10.5 damage. At 3rd level, we're looking at 6 ranks, maybe a +1 Cha bonus, and hopefully skill focus (otherwise, I would not say he's focused), so he's hitting 10 automatically, and easily hits 15 and often hits 20. So he's dealing between 2d6 and 5d6 damage with his Iaijutsu focus before using maneuvers (avg 7 to 17.5). When he maneuvers up he's between 10.5 and 24.5 (or an average w/IF w/maneuvers of 17.5). How he is consistently dealing 4 damage or so is beyond me and seems to be you are misrepresenting his damage output, or he is really, really, really bad at D&D.

As for the Roguificier, I don't know how he's not a dominant force, even with the Rogue level in there skewing things toward the "not-optimal" side. He can craft items at +2 caster level! That's amazingly, world-shatteringly powerful! He has Bane for whatever he wants, often enough to be nearly at-will! He should be a powerhouse at all levels of play.

[Red Fel]

Red Fel: I will say that you've hit on a sore spot for that player; he does indeed think it's not fair that an optimized character does better. I will throw some new encounters at them, but I'm wondering if it will work...in the same session in which the complaint came up, the Whisper Gnome had participated in a prison break, where his stealth was so powerful that the guards could stare directly at him--manacles rattling and everything--and be completely confused at the nothing that was there. He broke out with no violence. He showed some creativity in creating diversions and such while basically invisible, though.

Then it sounds to me like his character is doing exactly what it was designed to do - stealthing like a boss.

I will revise my earlier "I got no arms" metaphor, as follows: If a player is playing a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, with sky-high mental stats due to age progression (and let's not debate the cheese in this thread), and he complains that he doesn't do as much damage with his quarterstaff as the Fighter deals with his greatsword, I will throw a book at him. Your Whisper Gnome is extremely well-optimized for stealthing. He pushed all the buttons, lined up all the dials, he can go invis without invis. Good for him.

If he wanted to melee as well as other melee, he should multiclass into a melee class. (Or a spellcasting class that basically does everything melee does and more, a la CoDzilla.)

An Iaijutsu Focus check that's 10+ will do a minimum of +1d6 damage, for an average of 3.5 bonus damage. At Swordsage 2, with cross-class IF, he has a max of 2 ranks in it, giving a +2 to his checks. On a d20, that's an average of 10.5+2=12.5, meaning he's more likely than not to make that baseline IF check.

Tack that on top of any bonus damage he gets from his maneuvers (e.g. +1d6 if he takes the low die on Shadow Blade Tech, +1d6 from Clinging Shadow, +1d6+2 from Burning Blade, etc.). This is on top of the base shortsword damage, which for a Small-sized shortsword is 1d4, average 2.5. So even without maneuvers, he should be dealing an average of 6 damage; with, an average of roughly 8.5. Note that if he's planning on focusing on IF, that number will increase by roughly 3.5 average for every +5 to that check, so like Ziegander says, he'd better expect to grind cross-class skill points into it.

At level 2, that's not terrible. And it will get better. But unlike a build that's optimized from the start for improvised facial reconstructive surgery, a Swordsage - particularly one with Strength and Size penalties - is going to take some time getting up to speed. If he wants to be dealing more damage right now, he needs to have another race/class combination; otherwise, he needs to have some patience and grow into his power.

As for your Artificer, it's a class I don't know; but there are handbooks out there, and I guarantee that if he reads one or two, he'll pick up a few things that can make him as powerful as people are suggesting, with very little effort. From my understanding, a lot of what an Artificer does is out-of-combat stuff, so instead of developing combat skills, your Artificer can be prioritizing his "stuff I want to build so I can own at everything" list, checking off boxes and occasionally throwing freebies to the party. It's something that is probably somewhat less challenging to learn from a guide than combat building.

[3WhiteFox3]

Okay, the whispergnome, if focused on Iaijutsu should be dealing way more than single digit damage. On a result as low as 10, when using a maneuver and attacking, even if he has no strength bonus, is still 3d6 damage, an average of 10.5 damage. At 3rd level, we're looking at 6 ranks, maybe a +1 Cha bonus, and hopefully skill focus (otherwise, I would not say he's focused), so he's hitting 10 automatically, and easily hits 15 and often hits 20. So he's dealing between 2d6 and 5d6 damage with his Iaijutsu focus before using maneuvers (avg 7 to 17.5). When he maneuvers up he's between 10.5 and 24.5 (or an average w/IF w/maneuvers of 17.5). How he is consistently dealing 4 damage or so is beyond me and seems to be you are misrepresenting his damage output, or he is really, really, really bad at D&D.

As for the Roguificier, I don't know how he's not a dominant force, even with the Rogue level in there skewing things toward the "not-optimal" side. He can craft items at +2 caster level! That's amazingly, world-shatteringly powerful! He has Bane for whatever he wants, often enough to be nearly at-will! He should be a powerhouse at all levels of play.

To be fair, the Artificer is probably the most complicated of the tier 1 classes. It may be that the player does not understand the sheer power that the Artificer has access to. After all, how many times do people post in these forums about Wizards being weak? But yeah, the ability to easily make just about any item that they might need, bane and the other useful infusions means that the artificer could easily overpower the rest of the party, so it being weak suggests more about the player than the class.

[Kazyan]

Regarding Iaijutsu: It's a class skill. He bugged me to customize the Apprentice feat for him so that he could have it. He does not have Skill Focus. I know it seems like he should be doing more damage, but really...he's not. It's consistently well below 10, because sometimes he already has his shortsword drawn.

Regarding the artificer, he's mostly crafting scrolls--either direct damage or healing. Only last session did the group get a Healing Belt instead of scrolls of Lesser Vigor. He's complained that he doesn't want to have to be a zeroficer to be effective.

I think we're sliding away from the original complaint, here. The problem they had was not "We can't contribute to damage as well as the melee characters", it's "All of your encounters are solved by the melee characters".

[HunterOfJello]

The artificer should be using Bane on his weapon by using up an action point as necessary. Did you remove action points from the game? If so, you should give the artificer a pool of 'artificer points' so that he can be able to do his infusions in single rounds a few times per level.

Honestly, if a person isn't exceedingly well versed in the game, they have no business playing an artificer at any level. I'm not even confident in my own abilities enough to seriously consider playing a level 10 artificer.

[Kazyan]

I didn't allow action points because they were an Eberron exclusive thing and I was already allowing an Artificer, but if it seems like I should allow "artificer points", then sure.

Again, it's not exactly a problem of not contributing in combat. It's the fact that, when the party encounters something like a locked door, they hit the door until it dies, and then complain that I used another encounter that was solved with the melee characters.

[Baitdoll]

Regarding the Dark Whisper Gnome, he's able to autowin at hiding and everything, but not much else. It's no fun not getting hit if you can't actually use that for anything--his to-hit is, like, +2.

So he has no str at all? He gets a natural +1, and swordsage at 2 gets +1. Masterwork weapons get another +1. At ecl 4 he could maybe get a +1 sword too. As a fighter style character, one would assume he would dump a high score into str.


He doesn't do that. His strategy is as follows:

- Hide
- Draw shortsword, attack with Iaijutsu Focus and (insert maneuver here, usually the one that gives him two attack rolls). Do an amount of damage in the high single-digits.
- Keep either doing, like, 4 damage each turn with attacks, assuming he hits, which he usually doesn't.

1d6 sword, 1d6+ for focus, and x damage for manuvers, or rerolling low damage rolls.

If he only gets low damage rolls hes not doing iajutsu focus right, using the right manuvers, and again, has no str.


Still, it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong. It's a game, the game is supposed to be fun, and if it's not fun because someone's dominating, I have to change something regardless of if they're playing the game "right". It's my job as the DM. This thread is here to give me ideas.

I feel a better way to approach it is to let these less optimized players know that;
A) Low level games go like this, and their high racial level penalties make their characters not as strong, and its more noticeable at low levels
B) Let them know the way they are playing their characters is not a way to optimize, and that poor choices reflect poor usage and power in game. They do not have to metagame, but what damage dealer with weapons chooses to take a small race, with no str, and use str as a dump stat AND ignore stealth based combat.


If you stop one guy from dominating, you create a catch 22. 2 guys complain because one guy is good. You nerf the one guy. That guy then complains because he is no longer of use. You still have someone complaining, and will have to infinitely change something.

There is a right, and there is a wrong. As dm, you are always right. Suggest changes, and let them know why damaging the value of the other character doesn't fix the issue, since he would then be complaining.

Let them know their choices cripple them. If they still complain, this doesn't sound like their game. They made their choices, not you. Suggest single player Call of Duty for the xbox 360.

[RegalKain]

Again, it's not exactly a problem of not contributing in combat. It's the fact that, when the party encounters something like a locked door, they hit the door until it dies, and then complain that I used another encounter that was solved with the melee characters.

Sorry this mental image is hilarious to me. It's funny because our group last we ran, did something much the same as this, our party Rogue (Who has a Dex of 5 mind you, and is played as a crazy.) critically failed his open lock check, twice to open a door. Finally he stepped back pointed to my character and said your turn. (My character believes if it can't be solved with a big hammer, then it's a problem well above his pay-grade.) So hitting a door isn't always a bad thing, that said...a good way to dissuade this. Is let them hit the door, put a trap on it that hits them with a Ray of Enfeeblement, this will quickly make your melee characters re-think the hulk smash approach to trap-finding and trap-disarming, letting you ARtificer/Rogue shine a little more in actually, doing rogue things.

As for making the Super-Sneak feel usefull, in combat he won't as others have said until he learns to optimize, unless you purposefully make enemies super weak to his sneaking and not somehow weak to hulk smash greatsword. This is where I'd suggest using the rule of "He's going to kill you if you attack him" put a BBEG infront of the party, someone they know can obviously whomp them, then put an item near said BBEG that has to be stolen, your Super-Sneak now has a job. This goes along with planning encounters and dungeons to suit all players of your party, for that matter another way to do this, is put a caster (Level 1 is fine) in the next encounter, give ihm Ray of Enfeeblement, have him burn one of the melee guys, or for that matter, give it to him in wand form (If you think your party is slow) let him "miss" and hit some mook with it, the mook drops his weapon etc (This telegraphs the ability of the wand in a painfully obvious way.) your Super Sneak now has a job, stab the dude who drains str etc.

How does your group deal with out of combat situations? Obviously Super-Sneak is going to be better OOCombat then ICombat at these levels if he's unoptimized.

[Ziegander]

Again, it's not exactly a problem of not contributing in combat. It's the fact that, when the party encounters something like a locked door, they hit the door until it dies, and then complain that I used another encounter that was solved with the melee characters.

That's annoying if they consider every locked door to be "an encounter," but if you're in a dungeon and you encounter a locked door, it's 100% of the time because something that lives in that dungeon locked it. So if a melee guy goes hammering on it until it breaks (which usually takes more than one swing, even a wooden door has Hardness 5 and like 20 hit points or so), that makes a lot of noise. The denizens that originally locked the door can hear it from a while away and have at least one round, probably two or more to make preparations against the party and/or gather reinforcements. Bashing locked doors open has almost always been a last resort in games I've played in or DM'd, because it's just not often a great idea.

Tell the Roguificer to stop scribing the worst scrolls in the game. Blasting and healing are literally the two worst types of spells that exist, and if that's all he's doing, then of course he's not going to feel useful. He needs to be scribing scrolls of utility spells and battlefield control spells, of which he has all of them. Remind him that he can scribe scrolls of 2nd level spells because of his Item Creation ability and that he can scribe scrolls from literally any class spell list. He has tons of options for power and versatility there.

[Petrocorus]

Regarding Iaijutsu: It's a class skill. He bugged me to customize the Apprentice feat for him so that he could have it. He does not have Skill Focus. I know it seems like he should be doing more damage, but really...he's not. It's consistently well below 10, because sometimes he already has his shortsword drawn.

I guess it was Apprentice: Martial Artist?
You could have customise Aerani Focus too. Allow him to take it even if he's not an elf, that would have give him a +3 on IF instead of a second skill he might already have as class skill.


Regarding the artificer, he's mostly crafting scrolls--either direct damage or healing. Only last session did the group get a Healing Belt instead of scrolls of Lesser Vigor. He's complained that he doesn't want to have to be a zeroficer to be effective.

Zeroficer?


I think we're sliding away from the original complaint, here. The problem they had was not "We can't contribute to damage as well as the melee characters", it's "All of your encounters are solved by the melee characters".
So, he's has complained the same day he singled a situation thanks to his super-stealth? The very day you gave him the opportunity to shine.


Again, it's not exactly a problem of not contributing in combat. It's the fact that, when the party encounters something like a locked door, they hit the door until it dies, and then complain that I used another encounter that was solved with the melee characters.
So, the rogueficer is optimized to open door, and when they encounter ones, he let the melee-er break it?


Weapon of choice is Non-masterwork shortsword.

Non-masterwork at 3rd level, with a WBL of 2700 and an artificer in the party?!?


They have no alchemical items.

Again, why? Alchemical items can be useful at every level, and specially at low level. And with one single point in Crat: Alchemy, the Arty should be able to craft acid on a take ten easily. Acid can solve a lot of situations, a lock, for example. With 3 point or some other bonus, the achemical fire and smokestick could be easy too. And there are also all the items from CAdv.


They solved Trap 2 by putting a Silent Image at the top of the ramp, climbing up, and then killing the kobolds at the top.

That's a fine solution, but i guess the Silent Image have not been cast by the melee characters. So, the artificer has actually solved the encounter.
The swordsage could also have climbed unnoticed, thanks to his super-stealth and killed the kobolds on his own, they have only 4 hp on average.



Only the Artificer uses ranged weapons. Specifically, a crossbow.

Again, they are penalizing themselves. Why don't they use ranged weapons? They all are proficient with crossbow, the rogueficer is proficient with shortbow too, the fighter is proficient with all bow. Ranged weapons could have solved the first trap without triggering it.


The artificer wanted to do a "rogue-ificer".

He doesn't forcibly need to dip into rogue for it. Open Lock and Disable Device are class skills for him, and Hide and Move Silently are moot after a few levels. He already can craft scrolls of Invisibility. And next level he can craft scroll of Fly. He could have dip into Ranger / Urban Ranger instead, a few skill points less, but BAB +1 and proficiency with all martial weapons. Track / Urban Tracking can be really useful and the Arcane Hunter ACF is very cool. Not to mention there is already a stealthy character in the party.
He could have done the same with straight Artificer, relying on spells and infusion for stealth. As a lvl 3 artificer, he could already do it with the right scrolls and right infusion, and he could already craft wondrous items.

The Spell Storing Item infusion allows him to effectively cast any 4th level spell or lower. The Skill Enhancement also has many application. He could infuse it on the Swordsage's sword for example, for a +3 bonus on IF.

He should also remember that Armorsmithing is one of the skill that allows to repair a Warforged, and is useful to create some of the Homonculi. He should have at least 4 in it, and with masterwork tools and 18 in Int, that means he can create masterwork armor on a take 10.

[Red Fel]

Again, it's not exactly a problem of not contributing in combat. It's the fact that, when the party encounters something like a locked door, they hit the door until it dies, and then complain that I used another encounter that was solved with the melee characters.

As others (and I) have pointed out, when you either don't know your class' capabilities, or you build a character designed to be exceptionally good at one thing to the exclusion of all of the other things, you're not really in the best position to claim it's the DM's fault that other people can resolve more encounters than you can.

An Artificer is a craftsman. That means he can be making the tools for every encounter. As others have indicated, he could be making scrolls of utility spells, such as Invisibility and Fly. He can be making "solve this encounter" scrolls like Charm Person, Knock, or Glibness. He can even make a Skill Enhancement-infused item if he wants to share his utility with the rest of the party. His UMD will also allow him to use his scrolls and the like, so not only can he provide the indirect benefit of crafting the tools to resolve encounters, he can provide the direct benefit of using them. He can handle any type of encounter, with the right preparation. Teach him how to be prepared.

As for your Whisper Gnome, I have no sympathy. He has a Strength penalty and a Charisma penalty; he's demonstrably bad at combat and he probably won't be very successful in social encounters. He is exceptionally good at hide-and-go-sneak, and you showed us earlier that he really had the chance to shine doing that. But not every encounter can be solved by sneaking. His problem is that he focused on developing precisely one tool rather than the whole toolbox. His is the opposite problem of the Artificer's; the Artificer can do just about anything, if he's willing to prepare; the Swordsage can only do the one thing. My advice with regard to the Swordsage, then, is to take him aside and explain to him that, as it is, his build simply isn't suited to anything other than hiding and sneaking. If he wants to be able to contribute in other scenes - diplomacy, puzzles, and so forth - he's going to have to develop the tools to do so.

[KorbeltheReader]

Oh man, I know exactly what's going on here. Power attacking big weapon swingers own levels 1-7 or so. Happens every time. It takes spellcasters a while to ramp up, but once your swordsage picks up 3rd level maneuvers and your artificer is rocking stronger spells, they'll feel better.

[3WhiteFox3]

Zeroficer?

Zeroficer comes from a the title of a handbook. Basically the author's claim was that he could make the Zeroficer tier 0. He didn't, so it's a bit of a misnomer. He only really just pointed out how to make the Artificer a kickass tier 1 character.

[Petrocorus]

The Arty can also hire a trained craftsman (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#hirelingTrained) for 3 sp/day to get a +2 bonus to Craft check with the Aid Another rule.

So, with 2 points in Weaponsmithing +4 (int) +2 (Tools) +2 (hireling) that's a result of 20 on a Take 10.
With 2 point in Weaponsmithing and 4 point in Armorsmithing (because he can repair himself with it) he can make masterwork weapons (and crossbow) and armors quite easily during the down time.
So they should ALL have masterwork weapons and armors. Plus 1 point (maybe 2 too) in blacksmithing and sculpting for creating mundane items and later, homonculi, that's 8 (or 10) skill points of investment, not so bad for a int-focus character.

You should point him the several (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0) artificer (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artificer_Player%27s_Guide_%283.5e_Optimized_Chara cter_Build%29) handbook (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3295316) on the net.

Plus some others on the Handbook Index (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=skifnivd54dv5g3ll4j1n3rqb4&topic=399.0) where there are also Swordsage Handbooks and surely , the "beginner's" handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9479.msg153181#msg153181) too.

[Kazyan]

How does your group deal with out of combat situations? Obviously Super-Sneak is going to be better OOCombat then ICombat at these levels if he's unoptimized.

They ask around until information falls out, going so far as to fly their pegasus halfway across the campaign setting chasing a false lead. Super-sneak is the closest thing the party has to a party leader, by the way. And yes, they have a pegasus; they acquired it from a random encounter.

Regarding the Ray of Enfeeblement idea, I love it.


That's annoying if they consider every locked door to be "an encounter," but if you're in a dungeon and you encounter a locked door, it's 100% of the time because something that lives in that dungeon locked it. So if a melee guy goes hammering on it until it breaks (which usually takes more than one swing, even a wooden door has Hardness 5 and like 20 hit points or so), that makes a lot of noise. The denizens that originally locked the door can hear it from a while away and have at least one round, probably two or more to make preparations against the party and/or gather reinforcements. Bashing locked doors open has almost always been a last resort in games I've played in or DM'd, because it's just not often a great idea.

Tell the Roguificer to stop scribing the worst scrolls in the game. Blasting and healing are literally the two worst types of spells that exist, and if that's all he's doing, then of course he's not going to feel useful. He needs to be scribing scrolls of utility spells and battlefield control spells, of which he has all of them. Remind him that he can scribe scrolls of 2nd level spells because of his Item Creation ability and that he can scribe scrolls from literally any class spell list. He has tons of options for power and versatility there.

When I next put the party in a big dungeon, then I'll deal with "kill the door" rather like you said.

I'll compose an email to the frustrated party members with some of the advice from this thread.


So, he's has complained the same day he singled a situation thanks to his super-stealth? The very day you gave him the opportunity to shine.

So, the rogueficer is optimized to open door, and when they encounter ones, he let the melee-er break it?

Non-masterwork at 3rd level, with a WBL of 2700 and an artificer in the party?!?

Yes, kind of (the door analogy hasn't happened yet because the campaign is early, but it was his example of how the party thinks), and yes. The party has noted that they are a bit behind WBL, but I don't think they're counting their pet pegasus or the fact that they forget to loot sometimes.

I actually gave the kobolds 4 levels of Warrior, so they had 18 HP, which I now know is too much for the sneak to get through. My bad.

They don't use ranged weapons because...I don't know. The second time they went back to the first trap and deal with replacement kobolds, the artificer crossbowed them and the battle went a lot easier.


As others (and I) have pointed out, when you either don't know your class' capabilities, or you build a character designed to be exceptionally good at one thing to the exclusion of all of the other things, you're not really in the best position to claim it's the DM's fault that other people can resolve more encounters than you can.

[etc.]

Understood. The reason melee is the only thing that's working is because the artificer is A) just healing, blasting, and stabbing, and B) the gnome can't do anything but sneak. So they have three tools that they're using: blast with a scroll, sneak, and hit with a large pointy object.

It's not like they don't know that you can do other things besides blasting and melee. During one encounter on a ship, dealing with pirates on tiny little boats, I allowed the gnome to control a nereid who was accompanying the group (they had retrieved her shawl; she owed them 46 days of service). The gnome himself had been left behind because of the RP restrictions of the Apprentice feat. The nereid basically soloed the encounter by creating a hemisphere of ice in front of one of the pirate ships, blocking it from following, then applying a water elemental's whirlpool to the other. The player was so happy. So...they know there are other ways to deal with problems.

[Tiki Snakes]

Note - The following contains inaccurate and unfair sweeping generalisations levelled at people the poster is entirely unfamiliar with. It may not match the actual situation at all.

But it seems to me that the problem here is 100% not the "melee" players outshining the "non-melee" players.

It is about two toxically passive aggressive players who probably have some other grievance throwing a tantrum because they are not over-shadowing the two "beat-sticks".

It's entirely possible that nothing you do short of directly and arbitrarily screwing over the other two players will make a blind bit of difference. At least in the case of the Whisper-Gnome's player, it's harder to say about the Artificer.

It's also entirely possible that even directly screwing over the two "happy" players won't make Whisper-Gnome happy, if he is in fact actually just being passive aggressive due to another issue altogether, it'll just make your two Happy, productive and half-way competent players less happy.

Seriously, I can't imagine the kind of player who turns up with an attempted high-op whisper-gnome Tome-Of-Battle build being happy about a Fighter in any way competing for spotlight time or combat prowess. It's very much a build that makes a statement, you know?

[Petrocorus]

I'll compose an email to the frustrated party members with some of the advice from this thread.

Indeed a good thing.



Yes, kind of (the door analogy hasn't happened yet because the campaign is early, but it was his example of how the party thinks), and yes. The party has noted that they are a bit behind WBL, but I don't think they're counting their pet pegasus or the fact that they forget to loot sometimes.

Yes, a Pegasus at ECL 3 is quite a big deal.


I actually gave the kobolds 4 levels of Warrior, so they had 18 HP, which I now know is too much for the sneak to get through. My bad.
A bit tough, indeed.


They don't use ranged weapons because...I don't know. The second time they went back to the first trap and deal with replacement kobolds, the artificer crossbowed them and the battle went a lot easier.

My point exactly.



Understood. The reason melee is the only thing that's working is because the artificer is A) just healing, blasting, and stabbing, and B) the gnome can't do anything but sneak. So they have three tools that they're using: blast with a scroll, sneak, and hit with a large pointy object.

It's not like they don't know that you can do other things besides blasting and melee. During .......they know there are other ways to deal with problems.

So to sum it up, they know their character are not optimized for melee, they know they are optimized for using other solutions, they know there are many other solutions to the situations they face and they can pull them out, they have used this solutions already some times and have seen they work, and yet they consistently refuse to use this other solutions and consistently rely on the melee and blast solutions while they are not optimized for it and they know they are not the best solutions, and then complain because it's not working out for them and the PC who are optimized to use this solutions use it better.

Then, yes, the best thing to do is to talk to them about their behaviour, i mean their tactical behaviour. If they want to use a certain tactics, then they should optimize their character for that tactics. The Swordsage, for instance, want to play an Attack on Titan character, and is not optimized for melee but over-optimized for stealth (almost de facto invisible at ECL 3!) and he's even using a sub-par weapon. The Arty has one of the most versatile class of the game and is willingly limiting himself to subpar blast and heal. The problem clearly comes from them and that's what they must understand.

[Kazyan]

[vitriol]

Seriously, I can't imagine the kind of player who turns up with an attempted high-op whisper-gnome Tome-Of-Battle build being happy about a Fighter in any way competing for spotlight time or combat prowess. It's very much a build that makes a statement, you know?

Attempted high-OP? The player swears up, down, and sideways that he's not min-maxing.


So to sum it up, they know their character are not optimized for melee, they know they are optimized for using other solutions, they know there are many other solutions to the situations they face and they can pull them out, they have used this solutions already some times and have seen they work, and yet they consistently refuse to use this other solutions and consistently rely on the melee and blast solutions while they are not optimized for it and they know they are not the best solutions, and then complain because it's not working out for them and the PC who are optimized to use this solutions use it better.

Then, yes, the best thing to do is to talk to them about their behaviour, i mean their tactical behaviour. If they want to use a certain tactics, then they should optimize their character for that tactics. The Swordsage, for instance, want to play an Attack on Titan character, and is not optimized for melee but over-optimized for stealth (almost de facto invisible at ECL 3!) and he's even using a sub-par weapon. The Arty has one of the most versatile class of the game and is willingly limiting himself to subpar blast and heal. The problem clearly comes from them and that's what they must understand.

Thanks. I know what to tell them now.

[Tiki Snakes]

Attempted high-OP? The player swears up, down, and sideways that he's not min-maxing.

I may be a million miles off base here, mind you. I'm hardly an expert. I'm practically the opposite of an expert on this, in fact. But it is my understanding that basically, to a certain degree, no one plays Whisper Gnomes because of their fluff. They're one of those races, like Grey Elves, which you pick purely for the mechanical impact and their reputation.

If you can basically go auto-invisible with no meaningful chance of failure at level 2? You're min-maxing. I mean that as a value neutral statement, mind. That's a highly optimised build, in theory.

When you consider that alongside the fact that Tome of Battle classes have a possibly in-accurate but definitely prevalent reputation as being straight-up-better than core melee and generally a replacement for them, you don't get a picture that it's easy to be charitable about.

From my position of near total ignorance, he certainly sounds like he's tried to optimise his character pretty ferociously, just that he's done it lop-sided and came out less powerful than he really hoped.

[Kazyan]

no one plays Whisper Gnomes because of their fluff.

No one plays anything because of their fluff anymore (reading these forums, you'd think Dragonborn of Bahamut had two lines of weak fluff instead of a dozen pages of strong fluff), but I totally understand what you're saying. The player says he's building for a concept--Attack on Titan re-enactment--and implies that the other guys are more min-maxed because they're not doing such. Stormwind?

[Red Fel]

If you can basically go auto-invisible with no meaningful chance of failure at level 2? You're min-maxing.

...

When you consider that alongside the fact that Tome of Battle classes have a possibly in-accurate but definitely prevalent reputation as being straight-up-better than core melee and generally a replacement for them, you don't get a picture that it's easy to be charitable about.

While I wouldn't call it min-maxing, I would definitely call it optimizing. This is a player who took a race and template that basically grant him stealth on the level of near-invisibility at level 2. That's incredible optimization. And while I wouldn't call merely selecting a class optimizing, Swordsage, along with ToB in general, is Melee As It Was Meant To Be. Swordsage specifically is arguably the most diverse melee class in 3.5. I'm not making any value judgments on those points - I can respect the decisions.

But this is the key thing. They were decisions. One doesn't simply have the bright idea to play a Whisper Gnome with the Dark template - one reads about one, or both, one looks at handbooks or peruses the various splatbooks. This was an informed choice on the player's part, and frankly, it was a good one. He chose to set up a stealthy character and did a good job of it. Without question, however, it was optimization.

So we know he's capable of it. At the very least, he's capable of reading the guides, reading the books, and putting concept into practice. That's a good thing. Either he read about these concepts and put them together on his own - which is solid build-making analysis - or he read a guide and reproduced it - which is evidence of an ability to research and synthesize. Again, good thing.

Because he can do this, either on his own or via a guide or handbook, he can be led to understand the limitations of his optimization. He can understand that the flaw of the ToB classes, like many melee classes, is their out-of-combat functionality, or lack thereof. He has one thing most melee classes don't - outrageously good stealth. But if he wants more than that, it has to come from outside of Swordsage.

You mentioned that his complaint, as that of the Artificer, was that the "melee classes" were dominating non-melee encounters as well as melee ones. As a Dark Whisper Gnome, he's got the stealth encounters under control, hands-down. But he's going to struggle with social encounters. Tools for other encounters may require abilities beyond his build. For example, a Swordsage doesn't get Open Lock or Disable Device. (Frankly, that feels like it should be the Artificer's bailiwick anyway.) As a Whisper Gnome, he lacks the Strength that the "melee classes" have to force these things; if he wants to be able to handle the other aspect of stealth, that being infiltration, he may need a way to pick up skills like these. Similarly, if he wants to handle social encounters, he'll want skills that allow it - and apart from Intimidate, Swordsage won't give him that.

Right now, his build helps him with stealth. Soon, it will help him with combat. But as it is now, that's the extent of his optimization, and of his contribution. Unless he can think of lateral ways to contribute to other encounters (e.g. "I sneak into the castle the night before, listen in on conversations, and use that information to frighten the noble we're negotiating with today. I want a bonus to the Diplomacy roll.") this is the limit on his present build.

The "melee classes" are basically good for combat and raw strength. That's the extent of their abilities, and they seem reasonably satisfied with it. With lateral thinking, you can do a lot with strength. Pick a lock, roll an intimidate check, disarm a trap, all sorts of things. But that's all they can do. Swordsage, like them, is a melee class - its utility is finite, and limited primarily to combat. If he wants to be able to contribute to non-combat encounters the way that they do, he needs to either think more laterally, using his current abilities in new ways, or pick up some levels of a class that expands his toolbox.

Artificer should be fine. Those guys, am I right?

[Petrocorus]

He's using maneuvers as per the rules. Here they are: Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Blade Technique, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Clinging Shadow Strike, Burning Blade. He only uses the ones that involve a sword slash.


Sapphire Nightmare Blade would be better for him than Clinging Shadow Strike, it synergyze well with IF.

[Kazyan]

Update after another session:

The artificer has retracted his complaint, citing that he was probably just upset because of rolling poorly that session.

During this session, the PCs solved a fairly complex icicle trap by using the looted Wand of Blockade to slam a block into them, which caused the alchemist fire vials frozen within to blow up the kobolds on the other side. Then they fought a Young White Dragon with a level of Warlock. It was in the heart of the cave with thin ice over water, and plinked away with EB until the erudite used Sound Control to shatter the ice as well as the icicles on the ceiling, causing 10d6 falling icicle damage and ruining the dragon's one tactic; it was then dealt with conventionally.

Then they dealt with someone accosting them on the way back, nonviolently but firmly demanding the dragon hoard and the hostage they had retrieved. They escalated to violence, she took off her Ring of Alter Self, and they continued attacking until they figured out that they were in over their heads and sucessfully ran away. (Surprise, the DM can and totally will bust out a CR 19 Concordant Killer just to see what you do about it.)

They had fun, were creative, and overall? Problem solved.

[Sir Chuckles]

Update after another session:

The artificer has retracted his complaint, citing that he was probably just upset because of rolling poorly that session.

During this session, the PCs solved a fairly complex icicle trap by using the looted Wand of Blockade to slam a block into them, which caused the alchemist fire vials frozen within to blow up the kobolds on the other side. Then they fought a Young White Dragon with a level of Warlock. It was in the heart of the cave with thin ice over water, and plinked away with EB until the erudite used Sound Control to shatter the ice as well as the icicles on the ceiling, causing 10d6 falling icicle damage and ruining the dragon's one tactic; it was then dealt with conventionally.

Then they dealt with someone accosting them on the way back, nonviolently but firmly demanding the dragon hoard and the hostage they had retrieved. They escalated to violence, she took off her Ring of Alter Self, and they continued attacking until they figured out that they were in over their heads and sucessfully ran away. (Surprise, the DM can and totally will bust out a CR 19 Concordant Killer just to see what you do about it.)

They had fun, were creative, and overall? Problem solved.

Internet High-Five!

[Petrocorus]

I was actually willing to have an update. So, they understood the things better. Good.
Have they asked to rebuild / retrain their character?

Congrats!