Cleric Planning

[Rev666]

Hey all I just joined but I hope you can forgive me for jumping straight in with the questions.

First of all ive been playing d&d since 2nd ed ad&d but about 6 years ago had to resign myself to life and work. Recently the place I used to play started a 3.5 campaign based on the shattered gates of slaughtergarde and I actually managed to get the time to commit to this game.

Now the thing is we're currently 3 sessions in and are all scraping short of 3rd level when the main combatant (an orc barbarian) and my bard (whos a jester that is a support character) were captured by the drow in the second dungeon. The DM has asked us to create new characters until our original characters are rescued but he has said these characters are going to be our backups should our originals die in a few sessions time with a matched exp system (ie if our character died with 9, 465 exp then thats how much our character would have).

Heres the situation: The group contains 7 of us (3 experienced players and 4 relative newcomers) yet there is only 1 main combatant (the orc barbarians player has decided to go with a human fighter). So ive decided to make a combat cleric and after looking through the forums have opted to go for a dwarf cleric of hanseath (real original I know) but seeing as I like to plan my characters out long term (about upto 9th level) im here for advice to make sure that I dont regret treating this cleric as simply a placeholder when hes going to be my next character.

My base plan is taking levels in cleric until I can go into solar channeler for a few levels and my question is your advice for feats to be taken. Id originally planned on:

Level 1: improved initiative (initiative is set once rolled. You roll initiative 8, you go on 8's each round til combat is over; so my tank dwarf gets a boost in going first).

Level 3: power attack (a must for any 2 handed attack builds).

Level 6: extend spell (waiting til I have a few spare higher level spell slots before devoting them to extended buffs.

9: unknown (but I had considered endurance as a lead into diehard. I know diehard is sometimes viewed as useless at later levels but this DM is letting us go to -CON HP before we die so its a bit more viable).

So im here asking for advice on whether this seems like a practical tank melee cleric feat selection or if you can suggest some other feat combos to me.

The basic limit is core 3.5 feats and classes only (with the 4 prestige from shattered gates allowed).

Thanks for any help and if you need more info then please dont hesitate to ask.

[Firechanter]

Oh, Core Only...? Too bad, no DMM then.
How about you specialize in Summoning? Augment Summon or what the feat is called; I think it's phb.
Every battle, you summon a Monster or two, and have it flank with you and tank the enemy.

Also, if your Dex qualifies, consider Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.

[Rev666]

Oh, Core Only...? Too bad, no DMM then.
How about you specialize in Summoning? Augment Summon or what the feat is called; I think it's phb.
Every battle, you summon a Monster or two, and have it flank with you and tank the enemy.

Also, if your Dex qualifies, consider Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.

Yep only core. He wants us to not get silly with optimizing.
The idea of bolstering summons and having them surround your opponent whilst you act as a back rank prodder (I cant help but envision Warhammers Night Goblin and Squigs) is feasible but eats at my feats (at least 3 before even adding the tank boosting feats) and I dont really want to dip into fighter (though if I can work round it in my planning stages I'd consider it).

Also to add another question to everyone: what domains seem the best to take out of Hanseath list? I lean towards travel and war in keeping with my characters concept of being on a holy quest to find the holy stein of hanseath that fills with whatever alcohol you can think of (and to all those non believers that say no actual relic exists he kindly tells you to stop questioning his piety lest he kick ass for his lord).

[Bigbeefie]

When I played in 3.5 I really liked the war priest PrC. The requirements where rather steep. But I really Liked how it bumped up the melee part of the class.

Base Attack: +5
Diplomacy ranks: 5
Sense Motive ranks: 5
Feats: Combat Casting, Leadership

Domains: To become a warpriest, the character must already have access to the domains of Destruction, Protection, Strength, or War. A paladin or ranger must be able to cast spells from one of those domains to count as having access to it.

Most DMs Wont allow Leadership feat. Perhaps Goad your DM into allowing a different feat pre-req. Either way the class was sweet when I played it though I didn't get to benefit from Leadership.

[Gavinfoxx]

For a PHB/DMG/MM1 cleric, I prefer Travel and Trickery, be a cleric of an ideal -- become a trickster god!

[Rev666]

When I played in 3.5 I really liked the war priest PrC. The requirements where rather steep. But I really Liked how it bumped up the melee part of the class.

Base Attack: +5
Diplomacy ranks: 5
Sense Motive ranks: 5
Feats: Combat Casting, Leadership

Domains: To become a warpriest, the character must already have access to the domains of Destruction, Protection, Strength, or War. A paladin or ranger must be able to cast spells from one of those domains to count as having access to it.

Most DMs Wont allow Leadership feat. Perhaps Goad your DM into allowing a different feat pre-req. Either way the class was sweet when I played it though I didn't get to benefit from Leadership.

Its main 3 core books only im afraid PHB, DMG and MM.

[Pex]

Do you want to play warrior cleric, spellcaster cleric, or party buffer cleric? It matters for suitable Feats, Domains, spell selection, and ability score arrangement.

[Rev666]

Do you want to play warrior cleric, spellcaster cleric, or party buffer cleric? It matters for suitable Feats, Domains, spell selection, and ability score arrangement.

Warrior mostly but with a hint of buffer (mostly self buffs).

[Pex]

As a warrior cleric you will be in threatened areas a lot. You will want to be able to cast spells defensively reliably. To do so you'll need Combat Casting and Skill Focus Concentration. Many people say the former is a waste, but I disagree. You need to be able to cast your highest level spells without provoking as early possible. With both feats, 14 Con, maxing Concentration, you can do so starting at level 4 - meaning you succeed on a roll of Natural 1. If you play a human you can take both feats at level 1 to get them out of the way. The rest of your feats are then free for whatever else you want to do. Your human bonus skill points pay for Concentration.

As a self-buffing warrior cleric you aren't casting attack spells. That means you don't need an 18 Wisdom at first level. If you can get it, if you use dice rolling, great. If not, or using Point Buy, then try for 16 ST, 14 CO, 16 WI. Buff spells improve to hit and damage, 16 ST is decent before buffing. 14 ST minimum if you must and rely heavily on self-buffing. Increase wisdom for ability score level ups. If you can manage a 14 CH as well for Turn Undead that would help, but a 12 would have to do. Still use Hold Person as an attack spell despite only 16 Wisdom. Target opponents with low will saves. When it works it's golden. At 8th level when your wisdom is 18 that's when you can prepare a few more attack spells. You'll have the spell slots to do it anyway. Do prepare Dispel Magic from 5th level on. It doesn't care about your wisdom and will be necessary and useful often.

Divine Favor and Bull's Strength are staple buffs, but don't forget your defense. Protection From Evil and Shield of Faith are great. Bless is also a good warrior cleric buff helping the party as well. You will lose count how often a party member hits an opponent during the campaign just because you had cast Bless for the +1 to hit.

As for healing in combat, many people also say that's a waste. I disagree. I value it important to prevent another party member from dropping so he can do something. It's not necessary for you to get the kill every time. Your healing doesn't need to be greater than the damage an opponent is doing. What needs to be greater than the damage is your healing *and* the party member's current hit points. However, as a warrior cleric healing isn't your priority. Because of your buffing it will be a more efficient use of your turn to attack an opponent. Let other characters have more of the healing potions. Get a wand for Cure Wounds for healing after battle. If a party member is about to go to Death's Door or be killed in combat, heal if you don't think your attack (weapon or spell) will stop the opponent. Your party member might be more equipped to kill the opponent. He could be a warrior who will do more damage with a weapon or a spellcaster with a stronger attack spell.

One more thing: It still wouldn't hurt to buff the party warrior occasionally as well.

[Rev666]

These ideas are good; this is what im looking for.

Also to add some more info the party consists of:

Human monk 2 (secondary combatant)
Human cleric 2 (who focuses solely on healing with buffs being secondary)
Gnome bard 2 (who is a support with ranged attacks and inspiring)
Elf wizard 2 (currently finding his niche as hes a new player)
Dwarf wizard 2 (our offensive spellcaster who also happens to be one of the best in combat due to rolling ridiculously high stats)
Human fighter 2 (main combatant)

...and then theres going to be me: hence wanting to try and be a front line combatant.
Also the gnome is looking to multi class into rogue so there's no need to bring up locks and stealth (add in I'm not a fan of playing rogues so no suggestions of me playing a rogue instead please).

[PaucaTerrorem]

Domains I would pick are Strength and Travel unless you want proficiency and WF with a certain weapon, in which case take Travel and War. I like Strength over War for both the domain power and Enlarge Person, which you can't cast otherwise.

When it comes to feats take whatever combat ones you want then a metamagic or two. Firechanter has a good idea about summoning. Not a lot of PrC in Core so you could focus on summoning and take Thaumaturgist. Your BAB and HD go down but it is easy entry and you'll be summoning things that can take that place. Also with Divine Power you won't have to worry about the BAB as much.

But you did say front line fighter. I would stick to combat feats. Combat Casting, Imp Initiative, Power Attack. Cast an area buff, then buff yourself, then get yer whompin on.

[Rev666]

Domains I would pick are Strength and Travel unless you want proficiency and WF with a certain weapon, in which case take Travel and War. I like Strength over War for both the domain power and Enlarge Person, which you can't cast otherwise.

When it comes to feats take whatever combat ones you want then a metamagic or two. Firechanter has a good idea about summoning. Not a lot of PrC in Core so you could focus on summoning and take Thaumaturgist. Your BAB and HD go down but it is easy entry and you'll be summoning things that can take that place. Also with Divine Power you won't have to worry about the BAB as much.

But you did say front line fighter. I would stick to combat feats. Combat Casting, Imp Initiative, Power Attack. Cast an area buff, then buff yourself, then get yer whompin on.

The strength and travel domain could combine with the summon route. If I grab a longspear (simple 2 handed) for reach, toss in enlarge person and summon a bunch of monsters ill have a private army keeping foes busy whole I can hit from 20 feet away. Add in the buffs and thats quite a nasty prospect.

[Rev666]

Again an update. I finally got to roll my stats. I got: 17, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12.

Im thinking of:

Str 17
Dex ?
Con 16 (14+2)
Int ?
Wis 16
Cha ?

Any suggestions for the last 3 using 14, 12 & 12?

[PaucaTerrorem]

Put the 12s in DEX and INT, 14 in CHA(for turning). I would even swap your STR for WIS. Spells are a clerics best weapon and you get so many good ones at every lvl that you'll want to cast them all.
I started a battle cleric a few months back and quickly found that I want more spells. I am the second best melee without buffs and after a one or two I trump everyone.
And you have the basic idea; Summon, Enlarge, Whomp. And don't forget Divine Power once you get 4th lvl spells, and Righteous Might at 5th. And Flame Strike. Daddy likes Flame Strike. In fact, Daddy loves the Cleric spell list. It's all sooooo good.

[Bigbeefie]

I'd put the 14 in Dex for better reflex saves, AC, and Initiative.... 12's go in Int and Cha. If your Focusing on dealing that spear damage you should sink your Int like a fighter and your Cha not worrying about turning but 12's aren't really sinking a stat.... You can just kill the hordes of Zombies with your hoard of critters and your Melee prowess.

[PaucaTerrorem]

The 14 in DEX would only give a +1 to Init and Reflex over a 12. As a cleric he should be wearing Full Plate(max DEX to AC is +1). Unless you're thinking about taking Combat Reflexes then you'd want at least a +2 to DEX.

[Bigbeefie]

The 14 in DEX would only give a +1 to Init and Reflex over a 12. As a cleric he should be wearing Full Plate(max DEX to AC is +1). Unless you're thinking about taking Combat Reflexes then you'd want at least a +2 to DEX.

Does no one believe in Mithral full plate as a cleric? I sure do. But +1 to AC, Reflex, Initiative, combat reflexes (if taken) seems better for a combat cleric then having an extra +1 on Turning against Undead. I feel the Dex goes further in combat then Cha any day.

[PaucaTerrorem]

How did I forget about Mithral? Good point.

[Firechanter]

Those are some lovely stats. I'd distribute them maybe as follows:

Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 12

But the only important thing really is to put the highest score in Wis.

You won't need high Cha in a Core Only game because you can't use your Turn Undead for anything worthwhile. So I'd put the lowest score there.

Int isn't really that important for you either; those 3 or 4 points per level should suffice.
OTOH, Dex 14 also gives you access to Combat Reflexes, which works lovely with a Reach weapon.

[Rev666]

Those are some lovely stats. I'd distribute them maybe as follows:

Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 12

But the only important thing really is to put the highest score in Wis.

You won't need high Cha in a Core Only game because you can't use your Turn Undead for anything worthwhile. So I'd put the lowest score there.

Int isn't really that important for you either; those 3 or 4 points per level should suffice.
OTOH, Dex 14 also gives you access to Combat Reflexes, which works lovely with a Reach weapon.

This seems like the stat line up I'll take and I'll put the attribute point in wis levels 4, 8 & 12 (so a 20 wis at 12th level). Also I'll go the summoning route but I'll need to change my race to human for the extra feat. Also taking the travel and strength domains .

So far the feats I think I should take are combat reflexes, spell focus conjuration, augment summoning, power attack, improved initiative and extend spell.

All I need your help with is what order to take them ( at levels1, 1, 3 , 6, 9 & 12).

[Pex]

Don't take Power Attack until after you can cast Divine Power.

[Firechanter]

Well, you get Divine Power at level 7, and the next feat slot would only come at level 9, so I'd rather put Power Attack at level 6 and wait a level before using it.

Combat Reflexes at level 1 -- if you actually start at level 1, you'll probably get piles of rats or goblins to fight, against which Reach Weapons work like a charm.

Okay let me try to get everything in order:

R: Combat Reflexes
1: Improved Ini
3: Extend Spell
6: Power Attack
9: Spell Focus Conj.
12: Augment Summoning

That way, your summoning comes online rather late -- but at least your summons stay with you for a decent amount of time.

[Rev666]

Well, you get Divine Power at level 7, and the next feat slot would only come at level 9, so I'd rather put Power Attack at level 6 and wait a level before using it.

Combat Reflexes at level 1 -- if you actually start at level 1, you'll probably get piles of rats or goblins to fight, against which Reach Weapons work like a charm.

Okay let me try to get everything in order:

R: Combat Reflexes
1: Improved Ini
3: Extend Spell
6: Power Attack
9: Spell Focus Conj.
12: Augment Summoning

That way, your summoning comes online rather late -- but at least your summons stay with you for a decent amount of time.

Im starting this character at level 2. As said at the start (no sarcasm or spite, just mentioning as a reminder) this is a character that im using only til my original bard is rescued but if and when my bard dies I can play this cleric as my next character with matching exp (so if I rescue my bard and then get the bard to level 5 before he dies then my cleric can come back into the game at level 5).

And nay I say a big thank you to everyone for helping me with this build.