Core-only challenge: dragonslaying!

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, this is mostly just a thought experiment. A long time ago, back on the old 339 boards, I remember a challenge to invade a mature adult black dragon's lair with a single ECL 10 character using nothing but core. This was in the early days of 3.5, and while there were some interesting responses, I'm curious as to how people would handle it with a decade of experience.

So, the challenge!

SLAY THE DRAGON

Your mission is to enter the lair of a mature adult black dragon and slay her in solo combat!

THE LAIR: The black dragon resides in a hidden cavern deep below a marsh. You do not know the exact location of the black dragon's lair, but you know the entrance to her lair is 30' underwater beneath a large marsh.

Once inside her lair, you must traverse a series of rooms with a scattering of CR 3-7 traps, rolled randomly from the SRD.

The dragon sleeps with her hoard in a cavern hidden somewhere in the lair. The actual cavern where the dragon's hoard lies is a 100'x100'x100' cavern with various places for a flying dragon to perch.

THE DRAGON: The enemy is a mature adult black dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon). She is aware that adventurers will be attempting to invade her lair and kill her, though she does not know anything specific about you or your build. She can equip herself as necessary, but faces the same restrictions as you do in terms of gear (no candles of invocation, no non-core items, etc).

RESTRICTIONS: Your proposed build must be a core-only ECL 10 character. This means you may only build from the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide.

The following feats are not allowed:

Leadership


The following items are not allowed:

Candle of invocation
Dust of Sneezing and Choking (thanks, Juntao112)


The following spells are not allowed (even when accessed via item):

Wish
Shapechange
Polymorph Any Object
Gate
Greater planar binding
Simulacrum
Miracle


The following classes are not allowed:

Red Wizard (thanks, Gotterdamerung)


Standard WBL for an ECL 10 character. No wealth-generating shenanigans to break WBL (selling walls of iron, etc). You have XP equal to the minimum required to be ECL 10 +1, to keep in mind when crafting.

1

So, there's the challenge! Can you build a core-only character ECL 10 character that you feel could reliably invade a black dragon's lair and slay her in solo combat?

1

SUCCESSFUL DRAGONSLAYERS:

Juntao112 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16912497&postcount=29), using a wizard with a planar bound nightmare, Dust of Sneezing and Choking, barrels of poison and explosive runes. Succeeded in getting Dust of Sneezing and Choking added to the ban list :smalltongue:
Ivanhoe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16913812&postcount=36), using a ghost's draining ethereal movement to bypass most of the dungeon and draining touch to deal Dex damage to the dragon (plus rejuvenation to keep coming back if the dragon wins initiative).
Jack_Simth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16914807&postcount=41), with an arbitrarily large army of wraiths to take the dragon down.
Ivanhoe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16926030&postcount=65), whose half-dragon barbarian needs some help from a friendly wizard to scry and teleport to the dragon, but once he gets there, stands a pretty good chance of taking her out in a one on one fight.
Gotterdamerung (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16927695&postcount=67), with a tenth level druid and a lot of spiders.
Gotterdamerung (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16929079&postcount=71) again, this time with a Red Wizard who can use a Magic Jar heightened to 20th level, and who got Red Wizard added to the ban list :smalltongue:
Techwarrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16939916&postcount=90), with a 10th-level rogue named Sneaky McGee that can get past all of the dragon's traps and take it out with a barrage of alchemist's fire.


POTENTIAL DRAGONSLAYERS:

Irk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16912378&postcount=13), who is attempting to trap the dragon in her lair with a commanded allip with Spell Immunity to help protect it, or possibly a golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16916086&postcount=54).
Phelix-Mu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16912556&postcount=30), with a druid that is attempting to flood the dragon's lair with awakened green slime and trap her in there.
dysprosium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16926756&postcount=66), working on a cleric/thaumaturgist with Commune with Nature to get into the lair safely.
rmnimoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16931473&postcount=77), working on a halfling commoner who raises dinosaurs and bees to do his dirty work for him.

[Phelix-Mu]

Posting a reservation for a Druid 9/something x using awakened green slime. Have to iron out the details, but I'm fairly certain that a large amount of green slime can solve this problem. Getting inside will be the biggest task, I think. I need a level in something that can block sunlight...maybe there is an item for that.

EDIT: Is the dragon also limited to Core? Can my character tell that the dragon is limited to Core? Small amount of metagame, admittedly, but I need to know if the dragon could be using Draconomicon stuff.

[Juntao112]

Does a Cleric with the Water domain who Rebukes the dragon and successfully Commands it count as winning the challenge?

[Phelix-Mu]

The challenge seemed to use the term "slay in single-combat" more than once.

Otherwise, HOLE IN ONE.

[Piggy Knowles]

Honestly, if you can manage to command a 22 HD dragon using a core-only ECL 10 cleric, I'd be happy to call that a victory.

[Juntao112]

Honestly, if you can manage to command a 22 HD dragon using a core-only ECL 10 cleric, I'd be happy to call that a victory.

How does the Sun domain's granted power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain) interact with the Water domain's granted power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#waterDomain)?

[Irk]

Can we assume that creatures from the MM are in the world? Like, all of them?

[Piggy Knowles]

How does the Sun domain's granted power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain) interact with the Water domain's granted power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#waterDomain)?

Sun domain's power explicitly only works on undead.


Can we assume that creatures from the MM are in the world? Like, all of them?

Yes, that's a fair assumption.

[Phelix-Mu]

Can we assume that creatures from the MM are in the world? Like, all of them?

I smell allips/shadows.

EDIT: It does sound like it, but the dragon is core-only, too?

[Trinoya]

Cleric. Scroll of Miracle. Win.

Conversely, a wizard of 10th level should be able to roflstomp the dragon as it has the unfortunate problem of having stats and hit points.

/wizard op, plz nrf. :smallbiggrin:

[Gemini476]

Honestly, if you can manage to command a 22 HD dragon using a core-only ECL 10 cleric, I'd be happy to call that a victory.
Yeah, a Cleric 10 can only Turn a creature with up to 14 HD. And to Command a 22 HD creature, you'll need a level 44 Cleric!

So yeah, that method is kind of out. I guess you could Command 2d6+10+Cha HD of Wyrmling Black Dragons, though? That's not very helpful, however.

I will note, however, that Lesser Planar Binding was not banned. Do you think Hound Archons would object to being employed to fight a CE Dragon?

I doubt that Core melee classes could do much, though. Core is kind of horrible for such classes.

[Juntao112]

Forgive me for asking, but I have to test out the waters here: If I have a book full of Explosive Runes, and one of the runes goes off, does this trigger the other runes?

[Irk]

Alright, I'll go with an elf wizard 10. Part one of this plan will concern scouring the entire world for an allip, so I needed a race that'll last a long time. We use detect undead to find the allip. If we stumble across something we don't want, invisibility and get out. I suppose Elf ought to take improved initiative, just to make SURE that they get out.Alternatively, Elf tortures someone to death to acquire a new allip-friend. Thanks Juntao!

Once Elf has located that allip, command undead, and bring it ALL the way back. Command undead will have to be frequently refreshed on the journey back, but it lasts a whoel 10 days per cast, so it isn't too worrying. once Elf has arrived at the dragon's layer, they cast Greater Invisibility and Silence (to shut up the babbling) on their allip friend. Next, they UMD a CL 8 scroll of spell immunity keyed to see invisibility and dispel magic, the only spells Elf has to worry about, considering the dragon has only CL 5. Elf sends the allip in and then casts wall of stone over the entrance to the cave. For extra precautions, a lyre of building can make the wall indestructible for 30 minutes.

When the dragon is dead, Elf brings their allip friend back to where they found it, returns, and sets up base in the cave that was completely pillaged as soon as they left to return the allip. Screw it, just kill the little undead bastard and chill on your new horde.

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT: It does sound like it, but the dragon is core-only, too?

Yes, the dragon has the same core-only restrictions as the PC.


Cleric. Scroll of Miracle. Win.

Conversely, a wizard of 10th level should be able to roflstomp the dragon as it has the unfortunate problem of having stats and hit points.

/wizard op, plz nrf. :smallbiggrin:

Hrm, since I banned wish, I should probably ban miracle as well. (Frankly, I don't much care about the spell duplication aspect of it - but the semi-arbitrary "powerful request" options take any sort of challenge out of this sort of thing.)

[Juntao112]

Part one of this plan will concern scouring the entire world for an allip, so I needed a race that'll last a long time. We use detect undead to find the allip.
Why scour when you can make?

[Alaris]

Forgive me for asking, but I have to test out the waters here: If I have a book full of Explosive Runes, and one of the runes goes off, does this trigger the other runes?

Rules as Written? No. Destroying the runes does not set them off (at least, I'm pretty sure it doesn't).

EDIT: Reading the spell, if you are 'attempting' to erase the runes, and fail to do so, then yes, it sets it off. But I do not believe that more "Explosive Runes" going off around it counts as 'attempting to erase them.'

[Piggy Knowles]

Forgive me for asking, but I have to test out the waters here: If I have a book full of Explosive Runes, and one of the runes goes off, does this trigger the other runes?

No, Explosive Runes only go off if they are read or if someone tries and fails to dispel or erase them. An area dispel should hit the whole book of runes, however.

[Juntao112]

Rules as Written? No. Destroying the runes does not set them off (at least, I'm pretty sure it doesn't).

EDIT: Reading the spell, if you are 'attempting' to erase the runes, and fail to do so, then yes, it sets it off. But I do not believe that more "Explosive Runes" going off around it counts as 'attempting to erase them.'

Interestingly, then, the best way to disable an Explosive Runes trap is to damage it rather than using Disable Device, Dispel Magic, or Erase.

[Piggy Knowles]

I doubt that Core melee classes could do much, though. Core is kind of horrible for such classes.

I suspect the same, but I'd be mighty excited to see someone manage to succeed with a more or less mundane build.

[Irk]

Why scour when you can make?

Two reasons: it's more comical, and I don't how to make one.
Also, @ Piggy, is my solution acceptable?

[Juntao112]

Two reasons: it's more comical, and I don't how to make one.

Oh, you just torture someone into insanity before killing them.

[Irk]

Oh, you just torture someone into insanity before killing them.

But I'm playing a GOOD Elf!

EDIT: I don't know what's worse, your suggestion, or that my response is in blue.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, you just torture someone into insanity before killing them.

If that worked, that might be a somewhat plausible way to work the mundane angle. March enough people into the lair, torture and kill them, see if allip results while hiding, see if allip wanders into dragon. Rinse, repeat. That could take a mighty long time, though, and the dragon is likely to notice at some point.

Still, with a portable hole and maybe HiPS or some other decent form of stealth.

[Irk]

If that worked, that might be a somewhat plausible way to work the mundane angle. March enough people into the lair, torture and kill them, see if allip results while hiding, see if allip wanders into dragon. Rinse, repeat. That could take a mighty long time, though, and the dragon is likely to notice at some point.

Still, with a portable hole and maybe HiPS or some other decent form of stealth.

See my solution.

[Juntao112]

Piggy, what is your verdict on using Major Creation to make a lot of Black Lotus extract?

[Phelix-Mu]

See my solution.

I meant for a non-spellcaster to use. An elven rogue might have the time to pull march/torture/slay mambo in the dragon's lair, but it all sounds pretty iffy.

Obviously, caster can get allip, and dragon can be slain by allip, as can a goodly chunk of the MM. Oh, WotC, you tease! Making the stupidly strong undead seem so small and harmless!

EDIT: Alright, I think I can do it with one awakened green slime, a bunch of tree tokens, and more green slime.

[Irk]

I meant for a non-spellcaster to use. An elven rogue might have the time to pull march/torture/slay mambo in the dragon's lair, but it all sounds pretty iffy.


Oh, I see. I like your solution better, just set it up like a factory. UMD some animate objects scrolls to get some helpers and just make an allip assembly line.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, I see. I like your solution better, just set it up like a factory. UMD some animate objects scrolls to get some helpers and just make an allip assembly line.

Well, my theory was that not every tortured/murdered person results in an allip. Assuming some kind of low probability, the experiment would need to be replicated.

EDIT: Upon checking, the person seems to have had committed suicide to become an allip. Not impossible to arrange, but well outside the scope of RAW without some help from spells, I think. Manufacturing allips seems to be DM fiat territory, and thus unsuitable for TO thought experiment.

[Juntao112]

1. Use a Bead of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) and cast many Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) into a book. Lt's say a few hundred. Cost: 20,000 gold, a book.
2. Buy Dust of Sneezing and Choking and a scroll of Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm). Cost: 2,400 gold + 375 gold.
3. Affix the book of Explosive Runes to the Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm).
4. Use Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm) to generate lots of Black Lotus Extract (http://www.realmshelps.net/stores/poison.shtml). I mean a lot.
5. Store it in fragile barrels, then hit the barrels with Shrink Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm). Cost: some barrels.
6. Planar Bind a Nightmare, get it to take you into the Dragon's lair using its Astral Projection and Etherealness SLAs.
7. Decloak and drop the Dust of Sneezing and Choking on the Dragon while it is sleeping. Use the scroll of Dispel Magic on the Explosive Runes; it has a caster level of 5 and must make a DC 25 check to successfully dispel an Explosive Rune. And there are pages of those. The damage should be enough to open the bag of Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The Explosive Runes may deal some incidental damage to the Dragon.
8. While the Dragon is stunned by the Dust of Sneezing and Choking, toss shrunken barrels of Black Lotus Extract down on him from above and unshrink them to force a lot of fortitude saves vs Constitution Damage.
9. ???
10: Profit.

[Phelix-Mu]

1.) Use druid to find green slime. Cross-class ranks in Knowledge(dungeoneering) should suffice.

2.) Awaken green slime.

3.) Procure plant matter. The methods are legion, but an obvious one is a number of tree token. Alternatively, plant growth ad infinitum.

4.) Move some plants into the lair.

5.) Flood the water with plant life via tree tokens or...gravity. Could require some brute labor/strength, achieved via summoning and wild shape.

6.) Otherwise hem the dragon in with plant material.

7.) Green slime moves around via awakened green slime and, if necessary, control water, control wind, etc.

8.) The dragon must leave the cave or be beset by green slime. Enough green slime will kill it. I don't think the dragon can kill all of the slime. With the final stages done at night, the dragon is likely just screwed.

[Irk]

Cost: some barrels.

For whatever reason, this really made me laugh.

[Zweisteine]

Find Tarrasque via scrying.
Find way to confine dragon to ground in an AMF (a collar?).
Ground the dragon in an AMF.
Awaken Tarraque.
Dominate Tarrasque.
Bring Tarrasque to dragon.
Dragon dies.

[3WhiteFox3]

How is the dragon's cavern, structurally speaking? I need to know the height of the cavern and the size of the entrance. Is there multiple entrances/exits or just one? How structurally stable is it?

[Techwarrior]

I'm convinced I can do it with a straight class human rogue. I'm still crunching the WBL, but I'll get back to you when I'm done.

[Norin]

I'm convinced I can do it with a straight class human rogue. I'm still crunching the WBL, but I'll get back to you when I'm done.

This sounds fun. In for results. :smallsmile:

[Ivanhoe]

What about this one for "mundane" :smallwink:


5th level ghost halfling monk
Feats: TWF, improved initative
max out DEX
one of the items retained as ghost: boots of speed
Float to dragons lair
manifest in surprise round next to sleeping dragon
Win initiative, 4 touch unarmed attacks in full attack with haste
4d4 DEX damage, plus possible 1d4 from horrific appearance
Dragon likely at 0 DEX or repeat.
If destroyed by dragon counterattack, rejuvenate and try again later until winning


:smallbiggrin:

[Piggy Knowles]

Alright, I'll go with an elf wizard 10. Part one of this plan will concern scouring the entire world for an allip, so I needed a race that'll last a long time. We use detect undead to find the allip. If we stumble across something we don't want, invisibility and get out. I suppose Elf ought to take improved initiative, just to make SURE that they get out.Alternatively, Elf tortures someone to death to acquire a new allip-friend. Thanks Juntao!

Once Elf has located that allip, command undead, and bring it ALL the way back. Command undead will have to be frequently refreshed on the journey back, but it lasts a whoel 10 days per cast, so it isn't too worrying. once Elf has arrived at the dragon's layer, they cast Greater Invisibility and Silence (to shut up the babbling) on their allip friend. Next, they UMD a CL 8 scroll of spell immunity keyed to see invisibility and dispel magic, the only spells Elf has to worry about, considering the dragon has only CL 5. Elf sends the allip in and then casts wall of stone over the entrance to the cave. For extra precautions, a lyre of building can make the wall indestructible for 30 minutes.

When the dragon is dead, Elf brings their allip friend back to where they found it, returns, and sets up base in the cave that was completely pillaged as soon as they left to return the allip. Screw it, just kill the little undead bastard and chill on your new horde.

Hmm. Allips are dangerous and way under-CR'd, but I'm not convinced a mature adult dragon couldn't take one out pretty easily. It's incorporeal, not ethereal, so supernatural attacks like the dragon's breath weapon should still be able to hit it (albeit at a 50% miss chance), and if the dragon used any of its hoard to pick up, for example, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, it can just attack the thing.


1. Use a Bead of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) and cast many Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) into a book. Lt's say a few hundred. Cost: 20,000 gold, a book.
2. Buy Dust of Sneezing and Choking and a scroll of Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm). Cost: 2,400 gold + 375 gold.
3. Affix the book of Explosive Runes to the Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm).
4. Use Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm) to generate lots of Black Lotus Extract (http://www.realmshelps.net/stores/poison.shtml). I mean a lot.
5. Store it in fragile barrels, then hit the barrels with Shrink Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm). Cost: some barrels.
6. Planar Bind a Nightmare, get it to take you into the Dragon's lair using its Astral Projection and Etherealness SLAs.
7. Decloak and drop the Dust of Sneezing and Choking on the Dragon while it is sleeping. Use the scroll of Dispel Magic on the Explosive Runes; it has a caster level of 5 and must make a DC 25 check to successfully dispel an Explosive Rune. And there are pages of those. The damage should be enough to open the bag of Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The Explosive Runes may deal some incidental damage to the Dragon.
8. While the Dragon is stunned by the Dust of Sneezing and Choking, toss shrunken barrels of Black Lotus Extract down on him from above and unshrink them to force a lot of fortitude saves vs Constitution Damage.
9. ???
10: Profit.

This will probably work. (I should almost certainly have banned Dust of Sneezing and Choking, though - I'd forgotten about that one :smalltongue:). Just need to make sure you're not also hit by the Dust of Sneezing and Choking and the Explosive Runes when you activate them.


1.) Use druid to find green slime. Cross-class ranks in Knowledge(dungeoneering) should suffice.

2.) Awaken green slime.

3.) Procure plant matter. The methods are legion, but an obvious one is a number of tree token. Alternatively, plant growth ad infinitum.

4.) Move some plants into the lair.

5.) Flood the water with plant life via tree tokens or...gravity. Could require some brute labor/strength, achieved via summoning and wild shape.

6.) Otherwise hem the dragon in with plant material.

7.) Green slime moves around via awakened green slime and, if necessary, control water, control wind, etc.

8.) The dragon must leave the cave or be beset by green slime. Enough green slime will kill it. I don't think the dragon can kill all of the slime. With the final stages done at night, the dragon is likely just screwed.

Perhaps I'm daft and missing something, but how are you awakening the green slime? I thought awaken only worked on an animal or tree.


Find Tarrasque via scrying.
Find way to confine dragon to ground in an AMF (a collar?).
Ground the dragon in an AMF.
Awaken Tarraque.
Dominate Tarrasque.
Bring Tarrasque to dragon.
Dragon dies.

I'd like to see a few more details than this :smalltongue:


How is the dragon's cavern, structurally speaking? I need to know the height of the cavern and the size of the entrance. Is there multiple entrances/exits or just one? How structurally stable is it?

Only one that you know about. The dragon might have other exits that have been kept secret. The actual lair where the dragon resides is 100'x100'x100', and the rooms leading up to it will have their size randomly determined, with a lower boundary being "large enough for a huge dragon to get through if need be." As far as structural integrity, it's a rock cavern that has been around for a while, so it's probably fairly sound.


What about this one for "mundane" :smallwink:


5th level ghost halfling monk
Feats: TWF, improved initative
max out DEX
one of the items retained as ghost: boots of speed
Float to dragons lair
manifest in surprise round next to sleeping dragon
Win initiative, 4 touch unarmed attacks in full attack with haste
4d4 DEX damage, plus possible 1d4 from horrific appearance
Dragon likely at 0 DEX or repeat.
If destroyed by dragon counterattack, rejuvenate and try again later until winning


:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, ghost could probably pull this off thanks to draining touch. The dragon would stand a pretty good chance of killing you before you drained its Dex to 0, but rejuvenation is the nail in the coffin here. Assuming he doesn't just abandon his hoard and hide somewhere else, this would probably do the trick.

EDIT: Updated OP with some details on the dragonslayers.

[Phelix-Mu]

Alas, I suppose you can only awaken trees. Much sadness; live and learn. Now I'm back to ye olde permanent animate object->awaken construct->ice assassin trick. And that is so much less RAW-obvious and clear-cut.... But undying, easily sunburnt, sentient green slime shall be mine! *cough cough*

That said, the plan can probably work anyway. I realized that, since green slime is effectively an object, it's pretty hard to damage, but since it's a plant, it's pretty easy to grow. Using spells like control water and control winds can just move it into the dragon lair, albeit rather randomly. Since the stuff is free and is vaguely implied to spread like crazy whenever it dissolves organic matter, making more should be a piece of cake as a druid. They probably also eat through most of the traps on the way to the dragon (only traps made entirely of stone would matter).

Also, it was pointed out to me that you can create green slime with the creation line, as it counts as plant matter for effects that deal with such. Still working on a core concept for exploiting that.

[3WhiteFox3]

Yeah, ghost could probably pull this off thanks to draining touch. The dragon would stand a pretty good chance of killing you before you drained its Dex to 0, but rejuvenation is the nail in the coffin here. Assuming he doesn't just abandon his hoard and hide somewhere else, this would probably do the trick.


Even if he does leave, that's a win for the ghost. After all you are making a dragon hide like a pansy. If that's not enough for a win, I don't know what is. You even get the hoard as a consolation prize.

[Callin]

Rogue 5/Wizard 3/Ranger 2

Need 2 bags of holding a tindertwig a hand crossbow and as many barrels of blackpowder as you can purchase/squeeze into the bags of holding.

Alter self into a sea elf to swim down into lair after tracking it down with either mundane or magical means. Rogue to bypass traps and what little stealth you can manage. Once in lair turn bags inside out. Light hand crossbow bolt with tindertwig and watch dragon go boom. Knowledge Engineering will help with placement.

Not very detailed but its a rough outline.

[Jack_Simth]

Evil Cleric-10.

Two Caster level 16 scrolls of Create Greater Undead.
Orange Prism Ioun Stone.
Bead of Karma off of a Strand of Prayer Beads.

Caster level 15 (briefly), makes the activation on the scroll on a roll of 2 (95% chance - a 1 is always a failure if you don't have sufficient caster level).

Command the Wraiths as they form.

Have your Wraith minions slip underground, and murderize a small town. Each commoner-1 slain by a wraith's Con drain becomes a Wraith under your wraiths' control. Make sure to give orders very carefully.

Have your arbitrarily-large Wraith army slip in under the rocks and stones, and murderize the dragon. Sure, it'll usually make the save. That's why we need an arbitrarily large army of wraiths.

[Irk]

Hmm. Allips are dangerous and way under-CR'd, but I'm not convinced a mature adult dragon couldn't take one out pretty easily. It's incorporeal, not ethereal, so supernatural attacks like the dragon's breath weapon should still be able to hit it (albeit at a 50% miss chance), and if the dragon used any of its hoard to pick up, for example, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, it can just attack the thing.

How will it even locate it? It's greater invisible'd and has immunity to the only two spells the dragon could use to find it.

[Piggy Knowles]

How will it even locate it? It's greater invisible'd and has immunity to the only two spells the dragon could use to find it.

Greater invisibility lasts one round per level, and that includes the time it takes the allip to even get to the dragon - not to mention the fact that the dragon's speed is considerably greater, if it finds itself attacked by a source it can't see.

[3WhiteFox3]

Method: Durkon Was Right

Diviner 10 (ban Evocation) of any race for ease of use. You'll be wanting a Pseudo-Dragon Improved Familiar. Also max out Knowledge (Engineering).

1) Buy lots of Feather Tree Tokens, the WBL of a 10th level character is sufficient for over 100 tokens. You won't need that many, but 30-40 probably isn't a bad number.
2) Use a combination of searching/scrying/divinations to find out where exactly the dragon is and where his entrances are.
3) Use the hireling rules to buy a bunch of unskilled workers, tell them to drop the tokens where you indicate and run. Alternatively: use Unseen Servants
4) Use Knowledge (Engineering) to know where to put the tokens to collapse all of the entrances but one.
5) Wait until the dragon comes out, use Arcane Eye if you want to make sure that the dragon isn't trying anything funny.
6) Have you, your familiar and a couple of other hirelings be flying above the cave and when the dragon comes out hit him with a tree-valanche. Dropping as many tree tokens as possible and kill the dragon with blunt force trauma.

[Eldariel]

How will it even locate it? It's greater invisible'd and has immunity to the only two spells the dragon could use to find it.

Well, breath is a fairly large AOE (though in this case it's a mere Line) so not being able to locate the enemy doesn't necessarily mean you can't attack it. Be attacked - move away from the location and Breath at the location. It has a decent chance of hitting.

Warding the Allip against acid is probably prudent. Mature Adult does 14d4 so average 35 per breath; as such, CL 12 Resist Energy (for Acid Resistance 30) would probably desirable. It might further help to use Magic Aura to hide your spell auras, in case it has purchased Permanencied Arcane Sight.


Also, you have access to Teleport so logistics with a friendly Allip are hardly a problem.

EDIT: To make this more interesting, I would categorically ban spells above 5th level even accessed through items. After all, if you use 8th level spells or whatever you aren't really beating it with the powers of a 10th level character but rather the borrowed powers of a much higher level character. Call it an E10 world or whatever where those things are simply inaccessible.

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT: To make this more interesting, I would categorically ban spells above 5th level even accessed through items. After all, if you use 8th level spells or whatever you aren't really beating it with the powers of a 10th level character but rather the borrowed powers of a much higher level character. Call it an E10 world or whatever where those things are simply inaccessible.

That's not a terrible idea. What about spells accessed via planar binding? LPB for a nightmare to nab etherealness and astral projection is still pretty powerful, for instance, but I'm not sure I'd want to ban that tactic completely.

[Eldariel]

That's not a terrible idea. What about spells accessed via planar binding? LPB for a nightmare to nab etherealness and astral projection is still pretty powerful, for instance, but I'm not sure I'd want to ban that tactic completely.

Well, Lesser Planar Binding presents the peak power of 5th level spells. Either it's all a-go or not, I think. If that's the only real problem you could either ban Binding Nightmare specifically (there are of course other strong options), Lesser Planar Binding in general or just roll with it and reward extra points to those who don't use it; it is, after all, not like there's only one alternative.

[Irk]

Greater invisibility lasts one round per level, and that includes the time it takes the allip to even get to the dragon - not to mention the fact that the dragon's speed is considerably greater, if it finds itself attacked by a source it can't see.

Use a CL 20 scroll, and I mentioned how to prevent the dragon from escaping: wall of stone and a lyre of building make it impossible to get out fro 30 minutes, though I concede that it is likely that the dragon has an alternate escape route. Considering that, I'll try to find another solution.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's sensible to assume the dragon can acid-breath it's way out of it's lair if given time. I believe that is fairly effective on rock, and the dragon may have an escape route setup (even one blocked by several inches of stone that it thinks it can just brute force through). Setting up a cordon would be prudent. The lyre of building itself is a good method, but I think it only works on structures toward which you have line of effect.

There was a bit of a discussion on another thread on whether dragons have Magic Strike capabilities due to their DR/magic. I'm unclear on this still, as later monsters made it clear that the two went together (seeming to be a pattern...but mine jaundiced eye doth see some sloppy coordination among designers).

[SoraWolf7]

Evil Rogue2/Assassin8

I go and get myself some bags of holding for my poisons, and then slide into its lair using a combination of Pass without Trace, Invisibility, as well as my shadow jumping if need be. If the water of the marsh gets in my way, I use Freedom of Movement.

Once I arrive at the Dragon's lair, I used my Hide in Plain Sight ability while sticking to the shadows if allowed if Invisibility and Pass without Trace happen to wear off before then.

Then I use Terinav Root instead to reduce the Black Dragon's low DEX using the total 3d6 DEX damage, which on average should reduce it to 1 or 0. At that point, it's a coup de grace on the dragon to kill it.

My other option is dropping bags of Ungol Dust into it's nose to reduce its Charisma to 0 and make it unwilling to move at all. Works even better if the dragon is sleeping.

I can also use Black Lotus Extract for CON damage but even if CON is reduced to 0, he still has 22 HP, 1 HP for each hit die. With that DR10/magic, I probably can't get past that without a magic weapon which I may or may not have on me, which even so, I probably will.

I then shovel as much loot as I can carry into the bags of holding I brought and come back for more later, since the dragon is undoubtedly dead.

[Eldariel]

There was a bit of a discussion on another thread on whether dragons have Magic Strike capabilities due to their DR/magic. I'm unclear on this still, as later monsters made it clear that the two went together (seeming to be a pattern...but mine jaundiced eye doth see some sloppy coordination among designers).

According to Rules Compendium, yes. I quote:
"If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR 5/magic, it also has the magic strike ability (see page 101)."

Same with DR /Epic:
"If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR 5/epic, it also has the epic strike ability (see page 100)."


Worth noting that alignment/material DR lacks this clause. They fall under striking as aligned/material weapons only if the weapons specify it (though they usually do for outsiders, granted).

[Piggy Knowles]

Evil Rogue2/Assassin8

I go and get myself some bags of holding for my poisons, and then slide into its lair using a combination of Pass without Trace, Invisibility, as well as my shadow jumping if need be. If the water of the marsh gets in my way, I use Freedom of Movement.

Once I arrive at the Dragon's lair, I used my Hide in Plain Sight ability while sticking to the shadows if allowed if Invisibility and Pass without Trace happen to wear off before then.

Then I use Terinav Root instead to reduce the Black Dragon's low DEX using the total 3d6 DEX damage, which on average should reduce it to 1 or 0. At that point, it's a coup de grace on the dragon to kill it.

My other option is dropping bags of Ungol Dust into it's nose to reduce its Charisma to 0 and make it unwilling to move at all. Works even better if the dragon is sleeping.

I can also use Black Lotus Extract for CON damage but even if CON is reduced to 0, he still has 22 HP, 1 HP for each hit die. With that DR10/magic, I probably can't get past that without a magic weapon which I may or may not have on me, which even so, I probably will.

I then shovel as much loot as I can carry into the bags of holding I brought and come back for more later, since the dragon is undoubtedly dead.

1. Not sure how you're qualifying for assassin with only two levels of rogue, since it requires 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently.

2. Blindsense makes sneaking up on the dragon rather difficult - hiding won't get you past blindsense.

[SoraWolf7]

1. Not sure how you're qualifying for assassin with only two levels of rogue, since it requires 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently.

2. Blindsense makes sneaking up on the dragon rather difficult - hiding won't get you past blindsense.

1. Ah, you're right. I miscalculated.

2. Yes, but if he can't see me, I still have total concealment between invisibility and being able to cover my tracks with Pass without Trace, allowing me to move without scent or footprints.

Thanks for that, I'll get back to work.

[Irk]

Alright, I think I have a solution. Same Elf wizard 10. Acquire a greater stone golem manual, and an allip through command undead. Acquire a scroll of greater teleport, CL 15. Get one scroll of CL 11 resist energy. Acquire two scrolls of spell immunity, each keyed to dispel magic, the only truly harmful spell the dragon will be able to cast at our two intrepid helpers. Cast the two spell immunity scrolls on the allip and the golem. Cast the CL 11 acid resist energy on the golem, and cast resist energy on yourself and the allip. Cast bull's strength on golem, increasing its grapple to +54. Greater teleport into the lair, (you can bring an additional huge creature and another medium creature). The golem uses its +54 grapple to take out the dragon, which has a +38, so it is a pretty safe bet the dragon'll be grappled. Then, the allip calmly wis drains it until death while Elf watches.

I hope that works.

EDIT: since someone else attacked her while she was sleeping, I assume I can do the same (probably through scrying)

[Maginomicon]

8.) The dragon must leave the cave or be beset by green slime. Enough green slime will kill it. I don't think the dragon can kill all of the slime. With the final stages done at night, the dragon is likely just screwed.
That reminds me of these bastards.
http://www.spriters-resource.com/resources/sheets/52/54954.png

[Arutha]

I think I will build something for this. Something.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think it's telling that the Frightful Presence of dragons is rarely relevant to the most innovative ways to kill them. What I take from that is that dragons aren't that scary.

[kirerellim]

Hmm. What is the point buy for characters?

[SoraWolf7]

Re-doing my original idea:

Evil Human Martial ACF Rogue 5/Assassin 3/Shadowdancer 2
Feats:
Human) Able Learner
L1) Stealthy
ACF1) Dodge
ACF2) Quick Draw
L3) Weapon Finesse
ACF3) Mobility
L5) Skill Focus (Hide)
L8) Skill Focus (Move Silently)

Able Learner: Important to keep my skills needed to bypass this dungeon (Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim, and UMD) high and useful, as well as get the power of dance for Shadowdancer.

Martial ACF Rogue: Trapfinding allows me to bypass any traps along the way. Evasion keeps me alive from the breath attacks. Uncanny Dodge helps keep me alive and keep my DEX bonus to AC. The ACF removes my Sneak Attack, but I'm not looking to use Bonus damage on a dragon. That DR is annoying anyway.

Assassin: Poison Use lets me use those fancy poisons to help keep said dragon down for the coup de grace. Uncanny Dodge from Assassin merges with Rogue's Uncanny Dodge to form Improved Uncanny Dodge, only useful if the Dragon decides to summon minions.

Shadowdancer: Hide in Plain Sight comes early for Christmas, and with a Wand of Deeper Darkness on me, I can slide around in the shadows with it, even if he can see me due to Darkvision, which I also get at my second level of Shadowdancer.

Plan:

1) Get the Assassin's Guild to fund me/let me borrow a few Wands for this expedition. Because if the underworld knows you can kill an Adult Black Dragon, you must be good. I get a Wand of Poison created in help with a higher level Assassin, a Wand of Greater Invisibility, a Wand of Deeper Darkness, and a Ring of Dimension Door. I also borrow two bags of holding to store things such as Terinav Root, bags of Ungol Dust, and Black Lotus Extract. If I'm using poison tactics, I'm gonna be thorough and quick.

2) As I make my way through the dungeon, my skill monkeying allows me to pass by the traps and disable them to stay alive. Before I enter the Dragon's lair, I UMD the Wand of Greater Invisibility to make myself near undetectable, sneaking along and hoping Lady Luck doesn't hate me tonight.

3) Dimension Door up to one of the high pedestals and then start dropping bags of Ungol Dust to drop that CHA down. If this works and he goes into a coma, proceed to step 5. If not, Proceed to step 4.

4) Once he notices the Ungol Dust, prepare an action to Dimension Door onto his back, right above his wing joints should he charge in my direction. On my turn, slather the Tarinav Root on his skin and watch his DEX go down. If this works, proceed to step 6. If not, Proceed to step 5.

5) If he's still not down, use the Black Lotus Extract to deal some hefty CON damage to him before Dimension Dooring to a place where I can safely use the Wand of Poison on him. If this works, proceed to step 6. If not, Return to Step 3.

5) Walk up to the Comatose Black Dragon and start stabbing it until he dies.

6) Fill Bags of Holding with loot and dragon skin shards, return to assassin's guild in success and send a party to go gather body parts for gear crafting to sell.

7) ???

8) Profit.

[kirerellim]

Hmm... still a work in progress but I'm thinking Ranger specialized towards dragons(obviously), bane weapon, and sending in a unseen servant to set up a bunch of tree tokens first as cover lol.

Edit: Oh, mounted archery almost certainly, if I can get something with 5 HD lol.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was thinking that there is probably some debuff plus arrow of slaying that could work. I'm not sure about reliability, though.

Honestly, who was the designer that gave dragons DR/magic? The joke of all types of DR. It should really just be DR/-. I mean, Dungeons & "DRAGONS."

[kirerellim]

I was wondering about that myself >< At least a +something of magic you know?

Edit: I had forgotten about the slaying arrows lol I was just gonna move around in the trees sniping with the unseen servent putting up more for when the dragon took them down lol. They'd disrupt his flight a bit and he'd have to fly low to sense me with blindsense. Bane arrows +6 from favored enemy would hurt lol

[Piggy Knowles]

Alright, I think I have a solution. Same Elf wizard 10. Acquire a greater stone golem manual, and an allip through command undead. Acquire a scroll of greater teleport, CL 15. Get one scroll of CL 11 resist energy. Acquire two scrolls of spell immunity, each keyed to dispel magic, the only truly harmful spell the dragon will be able to cast at our two intrepid helpers. Cast the two spell immunity scrolls on the allip and the golem. Cast the CL 11 acid resist energy on the golem, and cast resist energy on yourself and the allip. Cast bull's strength on golem, increasing its grapple to +54. Greater teleport into the lair, (you can bring an additional huge creature and another medium creature). The golem uses its +54 grapple to take out the dragon, which has a +38, so it is a pretty safe bet the dragon'll be grappled. Then, the allip calmly wis drains it until death while Elf watches.

I hope that works.

EDIT: since someone else attacked her while she was sleeping, I assume I can do the same (probably through scrying)

Resist energy, bull's strength and teleport are all SR: Yes, so it brings us to that weird rules area where there's a question of whether or not a golem can suppress its own magic immunity. Also, I haven't worked out the figures, but I believe that might put you over WBL. Other than that, solid plan. Watch out for flight (although scrying the dragon to target him when he sleeps should help with that).


Re-doing my original idea:

Evil Human Martial ACF Rogue 5/Assassin 3/Shadowdancer 2
Feats:
Human) Able Learner
L1) Stealthy
ACF1) Dodge
ACF2) Quick Draw
L3) Weapon Finesse
ACF3) Mobility
L5) Skill Focus (Hide)
L8) Skill Focus (Move Silently)

Able Learner: Important to keep my skills needed to bypass this dungeon (Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim, and UMD) high and useful, as well as get the power of dance for Shadowdancer.

Martial ACF Rogue: Trapfinding allows me to bypass any traps along the way. Evasion keeps me alive from the breath attacks. Uncanny Dodge helps keep me alive and keep my DEX bonus to AC. The ACF removes my Sneak Attack, but I'm not looking to use Bonus damage on a dragon. That DR is annoying anyway.

Assassin: Poison Use lets me use those fancy poisons to help keep said dragon down for the coup de grace. Uncanny Dodge from Assassin merges with Rogue's Uncanny Dodge to form Improved Uncanny Dodge, only useful if the Dragon decides to summon minions.

Shadowdancer: Hide in Plain Sight comes early for Christmas, and with a Wand of Deeper Darkness on me, I can slide around in the shadows with it, even if he can see me due to Darkvision, which I also get at my second level of Shadowdancer.

Plan:

1) Get the Assassin's Guild to fund me/let me borrow a few Wands for this expedition. Because if the underworld knows you can kill an Adult Black Dragon, you must be good. I get a Wand of Poison created in help with a higher level Assassin, a Wand of Greater Invisibility, a Wand of Deeper Darkness, and a Ring of Dimension Door. I also borrow two bags of holding to store things such as Terinav Root, bags of Ungol Dust, and Black Lotus Extract. If I'm using poison tactics, I'm gonna be thorough and quick.

2) As I make my way through the dungeon, my skill monkeying allows me to pass by the traps and disable them to stay alive. Before I enter the Dragon's lair, I UMD the Wand of Greater Invisibility to make myself near undetectable, sneaking along and hoping Lady Luck doesn't hate me tonight.

3) Dimension Door up to one of the high pedestals and then start dropping bags of Ungol Dust to drop that CHA down. If this works and he goes into a coma, proceed to step 5. If not, Proceed to step 4.

4) Once he notices the Ungol Dust, prepare an action to Dimension Door onto his back, right above his wing joints should he charge in my direction. On my turn, slather the Tarinav Root on his skin and watch his DEX go down. If this works, proceed to step 6. If not, Proceed to step 5.

5) If he's still not down, use the Black Lotus Extract to deal some hefty CON damage to him before Dimension Dooring to a place where I can safely use the Wand of Poison on him. If this works, proceed to step 6. If not, Return to Step 3.

5) Walk up to the Comatose Black Dragon and start stabbing it until he dies.

6) Fill Bags of Holding with loot and dragon skin shards, return to assassin's guild in success and send a party to go gather body parts for gear crafting to sell.

7) ???

8) Profit.

Neither the martial rogue ACF nor the Able Learner feat are core. Also, even with a maxed out stealth, HiPS and greater invisibility, you still run into the issue of the dragon's blindsense.

[kirerellim]

Blindsense doesnt let it identify what it is though, just that its there, right? Its not blindsight. So could you let in a bunch of bats over a couple weeks to keep setting off its blindsense and let it get used to it lol. Then when you attack too, make sure you've got plenty of animals with you so it doesnt know which one is you?

[Ivanhoe]

And another mundane challenger appears...!

He was born for this. He knew. Whenever rumours had it that the dark dragon would never be defeated, he smiled to himself. It takes a dragon to slay a dragon, they say. So be it! He would show his sire what he was worth...

6th level fighter/1st level barbarian orc half-dragon (elite array)
STR: 15 start, 1 level, 4 orc, 8 half-dragon, 4 enhance (potion), 2 enlarge (potion), 4 rage = 38
Feats: combat expertise, improved trip, weapon focus/spc for halberd, power attack, improved initiative, combat reflexes
Items of note: +1 dragon bane halberd, boosts of speed, aforementioned potions plus potion of good hope and potion of greater magic fang (+5)

Steps:

Find wizard level 12. Promise him half the dragon's hoard (or pay the spellcasting services from your remaining wbl). Have him scry/find the cave location.
Then, drink greater magic fang, bull's strength, good hope and enlarge potions, activates boots, rages while wizard casts greater magic weapon on halberd.
Wizard finally teleports half-dragon next to dragon (which likely has AC 33 with mage armour cast).
Surprise round: charge-trip-full-PA the dragon with +25 trip mod vs dragon's +20 trip mod (likely hits touch AC and trips... the visual result being that the sleeping dragon is kicked high with the halberd and lands on its back...:smallamused:)
Then free attack at + 14 (STR) -1 (size) +2 (charge) +5 (enhance) + 1 (Weapon focus) +2 (morale) + 1 (haste) +4 trip for +28. 80% hit chance for average damage of 0.8*(2d6 base + 2d6+2 bane + 21 Two-handed STR +14 PA + 2 morale +2 weapon specialisation +3 enhance) = 0.8*58= 46 damage
Then, likely winning initiative (+4 feat +DEX bonus + 2 morale vs dragon's +4 feat)
Full power attacking at +26/+26/+21 with halberd and +24 bite. Which yields 0.7*58+0.7*58+0.45*58+0.6*32 (bite 1d8+5 enhance+7 PA+14 STR +2 morale) =40+40+27+19=126.
Dragon now has one round worth of actions. Option one: It can get up (receiving AoO) and fly away (another AoO), but it is unlikely it will get out of the reach of the half-dragon's hasted 120ft charge distance in the next round (which, funnily enough, even may be interpreted to have received wings with 120 ft fly speed with the enlarge potion). So, in total the dragon would be attacked three times, enough for the dragon's remaining 81 hit points. Option two: the dragon, enraged, full attacks back (from prone, at -4, for +24 bonus, +22 secondary with multiattack). Even if all attacks hit, it will only do 3d8+4d6+36=63. Which is less than the 12+6d10+21(CON)=66 hp of the half-dragon. In case the half-dragon wears a full plate +2 and has DEX of 14, and cheap AC enhancers (+1 deflection, +1 natural), it would have an AC of 8+2+2+1+1+4(half-dragon natural)=28
On half-dragon's turn, profit (charge or full attack, depends on above options).


:smallbiggrin:
(sorry about the massive numbercrunching though ... )

[dysprosium]

My idea so far is human Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 3 with Animal and Water domains. Maxed out Diplomacy. Commune with nautre (Animal 5 spell) to get general layout of dragon's natural terrain.

Idea being to summon creatures improved with Augment Summoning (bonus feat for Thaumaturgist 2) to shatter action economy versus the dragon itself. Water breathing for himself and planar ally (not sure which would be best yet). Lower level summoning spells for setting/bypassing traps.

Thaumaturgist 3 grants extended summons so these allies should hopefully be around long enough to find said dragon's traps and main lair.

[Gotterdammerung]

10th lvl druid.

Step 1: information gathering

Commune with Nature to find out where the dragon is and the layout of his cavern. Speak with local animals and plants using speak with animals and speak with plants, respectively, in order to confirm data. Use Scrying to gather even more information.

Step 2: Excavate

Using burrowing allies and wild shape possibly even wild shape forms, plus spell support in the form of Stone Shape and Soften Earth and stone excavate a tunnel all the way up to the dragons main cavern. Use Ring of X-Ray Vision to know when you are about to break through and to position your tunnel to break through outside of 60 feet of the dragon.

Step 3. Prepare

Defensive buffs like Energy resistance acid and energy protection acid and stoneskin will severely reduce the dragons offensive capabilities. Prebuff them and share with your Animal companion. Any more long duration buffs you feel would help should be cast. Airwalk, longstrider, Freedom of movement, Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, Bulls strength, bears endurance, Animal Growth AND your best combat form for wildshape.

Before you prep spells for the day of the attack light Incense of Meditation. Go ahead and prepare the Summon Nature's Ally spells you think you will use, so they will gain the benefit of the Incense of Mediation.

Slowly and Carefully Poke a tiny sight hole through the remaining portion of the wall.

Feed tiny spiders through the hole until you can see a couple of them crawling around on the other side.

Step 4: ATTACK!

Cast Giant Vermin on the Spiders using a normal metamagic rod of silence and command them to attack the Dragon for your surprise round. Make sure and use your knowledge nature to use the web shooting type of spiders. They should follow their natural attack patterns and attempt to entangle the dragon. With an 8 touch AC landing a web is not a problem.

It doesn't matter what the dragon does at this point as it should be very hard for him to locate you, and the spiders have either done their job or failed at this point.

On your turn start casting a Summon Nature's Ally 5 with the Metamagic Silent rod and attack with the spiders if they are still around. When it finishes choose Thoqua's. 5 Thoqua's will show up because of the maximize effect of the incense of meditation. Put them as close to the dragon as you can (as his current location is impossible to predict without a GM). The thoqua's can easily hit the dragons touch AC for 2d6 fire damage per touch. They are +4 to hit and the dragons touch ac is 8 (or 6 if successfully entangled).

Use your last 4th level slot to soften up the dragon with a maximized flamestrike.

This should clue the dragon in on where you are but there is still a wall between you and it.



From here on out, your left over spell slots with automaximized heals sharespelled with your familiar. And the combat prowess of a wildshaped full buffed druid and animal companion should easily win the fight. It will take several breaths to get thru the energy protection, especially with energy resistance. Stoneskin essentially gives another 100 hp, Animal growth and bear's endurance give 40 more HP. Between you and your Animal companion you should be able to do the roughly 180hp left on the dragon before it can kill you. For instance, A giant crocodile Animal companion with improved natural attack for his 9th hd feat with the aforementioned buffs is +20 to hit and does 4d8+24 damage and you can ride it while in giant octopus form doing 1d4+12 each tentacle with 8 tentacles a round +16 to hit (20 foot reach with a gargantuan space). There are many other druid/animal companion battle combos to choose from. Shillelaughed clubs and weapon profiecency feat + power atk on your animal companion for some interesting full attacks. A huge Great CLub with shillealagh cast on it does dmg as a collosal great club (6d8). Your ape familiar can wield it by taking weapon proficiency greatclub and with power attack it can dish out some real nice dmg. +18/+13 to hit 6d8+20 for dmg (before powerattack, +6/+1 Bab) and + 13 bite 1d8+8.

Point is, given your defensive and offensive buffs, you should be able to destroy the dragon before it can destroy you.

[SinsI]

1st level commoner.
Block/barricade all the exits to his lair; Dragon dies of suffocation. Done.

[Norin]

1st level commoner.
Block/barricade all the exits to his lair; Dragon dies of suffocation. Done.

Not sure if serious or not...

How do you plan to do all that manual labour without the dragon noticing and eating you for lunch?

[Eldariel]

1st level commoner.
Block/barricade all the exits to his lair; Dragon dies of suffocation. Done.

A Dragon with Acid Breath doesn't have serious issues getting out of there if roused by lack of air, even assuming the whole lair is airtight aside from the entrance. Most sleeping creatures usually have reflexes that rouse them from their sleep very quickly if they sense danger; I'm not certain the Dragon would just breathe itself to death without blowing some holes in the barricade..

[Gotterdammerung]

Human(thay) lvl 5 wizard (necromancer)/5 Red Wizard

Feats Spell focus(Nec), Greater Spell Focus( Nec), Tattoo Magic, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Craft Wondrous Item(b), Heighten Spell(B), Craft Rod (B)

Create an army of 40 hit dice worth of assorted undead. Use circle magic to load a 20th level Magic Jar with 5 spell levels left over. Pay for the spellcasting if you have to.


Use Divination to scout the dragons lair.

March through the Dragons cave with your undead army in the lead, soaking up all the traps.

Use the undead army to buy you some time in combat. When it is your turn, Cast the 20th level magic jar and use the remaining 5 circle magic levels to increase its caster level. It is now a CL 17 spell (CL 21 for Spell Resistance).
Use share spell to apply the effect of the spell on your familiar.
use a lesser metamagic rod of quicken to cast dispel magic as a swift action. Use Arcane Sight to determine if it has any abjuration effects left protecting it. If there are abjuration buffs still up wait til next turn for another round of dispel magics. When all abjuration spells are stripped from the dragon, have your familiar attempt to posses the dragon as its full round action. This can happen as soon as round 1 if you aren't unlucky.



The DC should be around 41 which means the dragon would need to roll a natural 20 to prevent the effect.

If your familiar is successful, have it commit suicide in the dragons body.
If it isn't successful you are unlucky =/ retreat and try again later.

[Gotterdammerung]

1st level commoner.
Block/barricade all the exits to his lair; Dragon dies of suffocation. Done.

They live in swamps, the dragon just has to stick its head in a puddle of water and it can breath indefinitely.

Water Breathing (Ex): A Black Dragon can breathe under water indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

[SinsI]

Not sure if serious or not...

How do you plan to do all that manual labour without the dragon noticing and eating you for lunch?

Dragon's lair is quite far from the entrance (since one has to overcome numerous rooms with traps to reach it), so if it is done while the dragon is asleep, it shouldn't be a problem.

And probability that all you need is a couple barrels of gunpowder is not zero, so "manual labor" is minimal.


They live in swamps, the dragon just has to stick its head in a puddle of water and it can breath indefinitely.

Water Breathing (Ex): A Black Dragon can breathe under water indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Only if that puddle of water is connected to the outside.
And even if he lives through it (i.e. missed some small air passage), death by starvation is also a possibility.

[Phelix-Mu]

The ability to breathe underwater has nothing to do with the amount of water, ironically.

Also, dragons can metabolize even inorganic material, according to the general entry for true dragons. Thus, causing one to starve to death would be very difficult (though not impossible...trap it in the Astral Plane, for instance).

[ShurikVch]

Someone who can control large number of small critters (such as bats/cats/rats) or make undead from them, may attempt to kill the dragon by attacking with dynamite (DMG p146) via kamikaze assault.
10d6 bludgeoning damage in 20' radius...

[Irk]

Resist energy, bull's strength and teleport are all SR: Yes
Oh crap, you're right! I guess I'll have to rely on the scry then.

Also, I haven't worked out the figures, but I believe that might put you over WBL.
Surprisingly, it is JUST below WBL with maybe 75 GP to spare. The golem manual if 44k, which leaves 5k for scrolls and such, which should easily be enough, since now I don't need the resist energy scroll due to the SR. However, I realized that if I got the dragon while sleeping, it would incur a signficant penalty to grapple.

Other than that, solid plan. Watch out for flight (although scrying the dragon to target him when he sleeps should help with that).
Thanks!

[rmnimoc]

Since I believe any problem in D&D can be solved with proper application of a lvl 10 venerable commoner, handle animal, and bees, let's give it a shot. Sadly, with core only bees are way too tough to rear, so we'll have to see if we can do without. So let's try it.

You are a venerable human commoner who has been working your whole life to rear an army to take down this evil dragon, because you totally ignored everyone who told you this was impossible.
You are a charismatic (21 (16 base +3 for age, +2 from levels) bonus of +5) old man (venerable, level 10) who has raised animals his whole life (13 skill ranks in handle animal), with animal affinity (+2), skill focus:handle animal (+2), and a masterwork....whatever you use to train animals (+2). With your great skill (24 ranks) you can successfully rear any animal with 9 hd or less nearly effortlessly (you literally cannot fail), and you can rear an 19 hd animal about 50% of the time. You have spent the last 60 years doing this, since you were fifteen (adulthood), and you've managed to amass a not insignificant group of pets. It takes about a year to rear an animal, and you can rear 3 at a time. Let's go with Deinonychus at first, since they are easy with 4 hd and only needing a DC 19 check. Easily doable with a level 1 human commoner. That is 60 Deinonychus by middle age (a encounter level 16). Once you hit middle age (and level 4) you decide to amp it up to megaraptors (8hd)! You'll hit a 23 easily enough, so that is another 54 dinos for an encounter level of 20. Now we are getting a bit old and wise (lets say level 8), we decide we can do better. Triceratops time! This one takes a full check of 31, but we can still hit it without too much issue. 51 Triceratops in our not so little army (at this point I figure most nearby kingdoms are starting to get scared, so you probably will lose a few Deinonychus (lets say 40, mostly because I'm using http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/ and I'm running out of slots to calculate encounter level). That's encounter level 28, so that dragon might be in trouble. Now we hit the meat and potatos of this build, venerable and level ten, with the T-REX (15 of them in fact, be very afraid)!!! We lose 20 megaraptors to terrified knights, because once again I'm running out of slots. That amps us up only a single encounter level, but the dragon is still in trouble.
So, legit question, how well do you think a dragon will do against 20 Deinonychus, 34 Megaraptors, 51 Triceratops, and 15 of the dinosaur king, the Tyranasaurus Rex. Now you just walk up to the cave and say three simple words: "Kill the Dragon". I doubt you will get any real experience for the dragon at this point, and I'm not too sure what you can get with the money that you can't just TAKE with your encounter level 29 army of dynos, but at least you can brag about killing a dragon.

[Gotterdammerung]

So, legit question, how well do you think a dragon will do against 20 Deinonychus, 34 Megaraptors, 51 Triceratops, and 15 of the dinosaur king, the Tyranasaurus Rex.

Legit Answer, not very well. None of them can fly or jump high enough to reach the dragon if it flies in its aforementioned 100x100x100 foot cavern.

You are better off offering free trained Tyrannosaurus Rex mounts to the first party to subdue the dragon for you, and then coup de grace it after a high level party does the dirty work for you.

[Kraklen88]

I was going to have a similar answer as the handle animal solution above. However, I probably would have filled up the cavern with water and use dire sharks. No flying there.

Edit: OR web spinning spiders, dire bats, and dinosaurs. OR web spinning spiders and dire bears.

I would fill up the cavern with a few decanters of endless water.

[Red Rubber Band]

So you're 75. That's all well and good, but all these animals that you're raising, are they also all alive?
Very cool idea, but I'm just curious as to the lifespans of these dinosaurs.

[Phelix-Mu]

Can Handle Animal reliably overcome the dragon's Frightful Presence?

And if it can, what the hell use is Frightful Presence anyway?

[Tvtyrant]

Druid:

I wonder if there is a trick you could pull off with Baleful Polymorph and building an animal army. Baleful Polymorph changes the type to animal, and you can make them into Eagles. We grab a Black Pudding and cut it into the most number of critters we can. Now we turn them into Eagles, which maintain their hit dice and lack of a mind if they make a will save. We keep on cutting and waiting (pit and a glaive) until we have a lot of very high HP, very stupid eagles.

Animal Growth and Charm Animal should work on them, just not sure how well they would do in actual combat (lots of health, Animal Growth grants DR, but they are still unable to hit anything.)

[Phelix-Mu]

Druid:

I wonder if there is a trick you could pull off with Baleful Polymorph and building an animal army. Baleful Polymorph changes the type to animal, and you can make them into Eagles. We grab a Black Pudding and cut it into the most number of critters we can. Now we turn them into Eagles, which maintain their hit dice and lack of a mind if they make a will save. We keep on cutting and waiting (pit and a glaive) until we have a lot of very high HP, very stupid eagles.

Animal Growth and Charm Animal should work on them, just not sure how well they would do in actual combat (lots of health, Animal Growth grants DR, but they are still unable to hit anything.)

I was recently made aware that baleful polymorph was errata'd, which caused me much sadness. Wanted to let you know, in case you were using the old version.

[rmnimoc]

So you're 75. That's all well and good, but all these animals that you're raising, are they also all alive?
Very cool idea, but I'm just curious as to the lifespans of these dinosaurs.
If you can find anything RAW that suggests my dinosaurs die of old age, please let me know. I kind of just figured dinosaurs are like turtles and lived an insane length of time.


Legit Answer, not very well. None of them can fly or jump high enough to reach the dragon if it flies in its aforementioned 100x100x100 foot cavern.

You are better off offering free trained Tyrannosaurus Rex mounts to the first party to subdue the dragon for you, and then coup de grace it after a high level party does the dirty work for you.
:(
I totally forgot it could fly. Swap the T-rexes for Rocs then.
I totally wanted to do it with just dinosaurs. T^T


Can Handle Animal reliably overcome the dragon's Frightful Presence?

And if it can, what the hell use is Frightful Presence anyway?
I kinda figured that went under the "push" part of handle animal, a mere dc 25 check I believe. If not let me know so I can revise my gameplan. I might have to end up finding a 19hd animal, just so it is immune to the frightful presence.

[Kraklen88]

Also, be a Cleric or Druid and Stone Shape a ceiling so it is a little lower but with a necking point. Scrolls of Stone Shape should do it. I can calculate the exact numbers but lets just say I can afford: 130 scrolls at that WBL. I can cast it 130 times. Each casting does 15 cu ft of stone for a grand total of 1950 cu ft.

For some reason, I cannot find the weight of stone. However that, plus a few summon spells to make some noise would get him in the room. Then just one more stone shape (prepared) on the necking point have to whole roof on him. The damage would be double of 5d6 (first 400 lbs) + 1d6*(every 200 lbs after of stone) since there would be stalagmites which are considered sharp. That should do it. Since stone is like 100 lb/cu ft, he should be dead. Even with a reflex save for half.

[Red Rubber Band]

If you can find anything RAW that suggests my dinosaurs die of old age, please let me know. I kind of just figured dinosaurs are like turtles and lived an insane length of time.

I don't have anything in front of me but if dinosaurs don't have a RAW life span, then I'm assuming most of the rest of the MM doesn't, either. Or wherever they're from.

[3WhiteFox3]

I kinda figured that went under the "push" part of handle animal, a mere dc 25 check I believe. If not let me know so I can revise my gameplan. I might have to end up finding a 19hd animal, just so it is immune to the frightful presence.

There's nothing in Handle Animal that prevents you from using handle animal on an advanced monster. Giant Squids, Dire Sharks, Rocs and T-Rexes can all be advanced to 19hd.

The 19hd Giant Squid in particular is pretty awesome.

[rmnimoc]

Actually, looking at it again, if I hit DC 42 I can rear the most terrifying creatures of all, the Hellwasp Swarm.

Normally I'm stuck at 24 ranks, hitting it 10% of the time, but if I use some of the bunches of money I'm still sitting on to buy a cloak of charisma +6 that is 30, so I'll be hitting it about 40% of the time. I'll have to wait a few more years for my revenge, but I've already waited 60, so that isn't a big deal. If I'm rearing 4 at once I've got pretty good odds of getting one, and between the hivemind int of 6 and charisma of 9 they will make the aid another to help me about 45% of the time. So first year I managed one, second batch I still got two, two more in year three, etc. That is assuming I can't pull any clever tricks like mixing the swarms together to have over 50% of the swarms be wasps I already control for added bonus (we'll say I can't because RAW doesn't say I can and that would be cheating). I'll want at least 20 wasps before going in for the attack. Since the very idea of a swarm dying of old age makes no sense (plus they rules don't say they die from age and with their weird magical semi-extraplanar stuff it makes even less sense) the only factor on time is that I'll keel over in 2d20 years. I figure I'm in pretty good shape at this point, so I'll hope it is closer to 20 than 2.

Now for the reason these are my favorite core monsters:
1. While a swarm they have int 6, so they can speak.
2. They have DR/10 magic, which means their stings count as magic for bypassing DR.
3. The stings and bites also count as evil aligned for bypassing DR.
4. They have decent saves. 10 fort, 14 reflex, 7 will. They will pass the save against frightful presence on a 13 or better I believe.
5. They are immune to all weapon attacks, and I believe natural attacks count as that.
6. They can infest living creatures and dead creatures, letting them close in while hiding in the body of another creature. For fun let's make it 20 young dragons, because they can reliably sneak up (and in) sleeping young dragons. They can then make them their puppets to close in on the older dragon. The dragon-zombie-puppets are immune to acid, so they can close in without worrying about the breath weapon.
7. If the older dragon is asleep they can easily infest and kill it.
8. They have a good hide check (+19) so they can sneak up of the dragon rather easily.
9. Their sting is 3d6 + Dex poison. Initial and secondary 1d6 dex damage, fort save of 18. It'll only work on him 15% of the time, but that is part of the reason I reared so many of them. He's only got 10 dex, so there is a rather good chance that first sting will put him down.
10. I mentioned infest right? Once the dragon hits 0 dex he is helpless, and my swarm can crawl into him and consume him from the inside out. Also puppet him around because why not.
11. If it ends a turn mid-swarm he has a 15% chance of getting chopped down to a single move action a round.
12. Hivemind Int 6 means they can understand and execute less complex plans. After all their text mentions being smart enough to make the people they infest put on cloaks and bulky clothes to make the swarm more difficult to spot.
13. Planar knowledge not being a class skill will mean the poor dragon has no clue what is going on when the terror of hellwasps (a group of 5+ swarms is legitimately called a terror) decends on him and parasites their way into him. That means he won't realize how much trouble he is in until it is too late.
14. An adult black dragon doesn't have the int or wis to use a heal or remove disease scroll to force the bugs out of him, even if he does manage to get over the dex poisoning after infesting him. Not like that matters because as long as he is infested he is under the effects of dominate monster.
15. Their very name is Hellwasp Swarms. A group of 2-4 is a "fright" and a group of 5-8 is a "terror". I'm pretty sure going by that logic means I should call a group of 20 swarms a "phantasmal killer" or something equally horrifying.
I think this can manage it, provided I don't drop dead of old age first. Actually while I'm at it I'll go with an elf instead of a human, I had enough feats I didn't know what to do with already, and that makes old age far less of a threat.

I'll admit I'm totally in love with hellwasp swarms. Greatest monster ever.

[chaos_redefined]

Oh crap, you're right! I guess I'll have to rely on the scry then.

Surprisingly, it is JUST below WBL with maybe 75 GP to spare. The golem manual if 44k, which leaves 5k for scrolls and such, which should easily be enough, since now I don't need the resist energy scroll due to the SR. However, I realized that if I got the dragon while sleeping, it would incur a signficant penalty to grapple.

Thanks!

Allow me to save you some more money. You listed Dispel Magic as one of the spells that the dragon could cast that could ruin your day, except it casts spells as a 5th level sorcerer. One level short of the requirement to cast dispel magic. It is possible that it could cast it off scrolls, and I don't know if you need to take that into account, but it can't cast it from it's sorcerer casting.

[Techwarrior]

I have two other entries that should be able to complete the challenge. A pixie and a Ranger. I'm working on a Paladin one as well.

Sneaky McGee
Human Rogue 10
Stats Strength 8, Dexterity 22 (18 base, +2 level, +2 item), Constitution 14, Wisdom 12, Intelligence 14, Charisma 14 (32 point buy: 16 to Dex, 6 to Con, 4 to Wis, 6 to Int, 6 to Cha)
Feats Point Blank Shot (1st), Rapid Shot (Human), Quick Draw (3rd), Skill Focus (Disable Device) (6th), Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
Rogue Special Crippling Strike
Relevant Skills
Disable Device +31 (13 ranks, +3 feat, +2 tool, +3 Int),
Search +31 (13 ranks, +5 item, +3 Int),
Spellcraft +11 (6 ranks [cost 10], +3 Int, +2 tool),
Decipher Script +8 (5 ranks, +3 Int),
Use Magic Device +20 [+24 scrolls] (13 ranks, +2 Cha, +2 tool, +4 synergy [scrolls only], +3 feat)
Listen +14 (13 ranks, +1 Wisdom)
Spot +14 (13 ranks, +1 Wisdom)
Move Silently +19 (13 ranks, +6 Dex)
Hide +39/59 (13 ranks, +6 Dex, +20 Invisible (40 stationary))
Swim +12 (13 ranks, -1 Str)
Escape Artist +19 (13 ranks, 6 Dex)


Other Statistics:
HP: 6+(7*4.5: 31.5)+(10x2: 20) = 57
AC: 10 +6 dex +1 haste = 23 (flat footed 23, touch 16)
Fortitude: 3 base +2 Con +1 resistance = +6
Reflex: 7 base +6 Dex +1 resistance = +14
Will: 3 +1 Wis +1 resistance = +5
Initiative: +6 (6 dex)
BAB +7
Items
Ring of Invisibility 20,000 gp (29k left)
Boots of Speed 12,000 gp (17k left)
Haste for 10 non-consecutive rounds
Gloves of Dexterity +2 4,000 gp (13k left)
Heward's Handy Haversack 2,000 gp (11k left)
Attack of Opportunity free move action retrieve item
Headband of Intelligence +2 4,000 gp (9k left)
Wand of Dispel Magic (Caster level 10) 5 charges 450 gp each; 2,250 gp total (6,750 left)
Scroll of Hero's Feast 825 gp (5,925 left)
Immunity to Fear
Scroll of Heal 825 gp (5,100)
2 Scrolls of Greater Invisibilty 375 gp each; 750 total (4,350 left)
Goggles of Minute Seeing 2,500 gp (1,850 left)
Scroll of Daylight 187.5 gp (1,662 gp)
Scroll of Magic Weapon 12.5 gp (1,650 gp)
20 flasks of alchemist's fire 400 gp (1,250 gp)
Club -
Masterwork Thieve's Tools 55 gp (1,195 gp)
Masterwork Tool (Use Magic Device) 50 gp (1,145 gp)
Masterwork Tool (Spellcraft) 50 gp (1,095 gp)
Spiked Gauntlet 5 gp (1,190 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +1 1,000 gp (190 gp)
Scroll of Fly 187.5 gp (2.5 gp)



Tactics:
Prep
Sneaky will activate, or have someone else activate a Scroll of Hero's Feast, granting our hero Immunity to Fear while they go dragon slaying. This means that Sneaky doesn't give one whit about the dragon's frightful presence.

Sneaky can find and disable any trap in the CR 3-7 range by taking 10 on Search and Disable Device, so can bypass the trap portion of the challenge without trouble.

Upon entering the dragon's cavern, Sneaky will reactivate their Ring of Invisibility, cast Fly, and then check their bag and belt of alchemist's fire. Before entering, Sneaky puts one scroll of Greater Invisibility in hand.

Sneaky begins examining the area one 60 ft fly move action, and one active Spot check at a time. Sneaky's Hide skill, along with being invisible, should allow them to sneak to within 60 ft of the black dragon before anything happens. There should now be opposed checks to determine if Sneaky can find him. With 2 Spot checks and a Listen check, Sneaky should be able to detect the dragon with an accuracy of ~70% (The opposed Spot checks have a 41.25% chance of success, while the Listen has a 14.25% chance.) and should win Initiative 77.25% of the time.

Should Sneaky win initiative, he casts Greater Invisibility off of his scroll. If he failed to act in the surprise round, he moves 30 ft toward the dragon.

Sneaky only cares about 1 spell the dragon could possibly know: Hypnotic Pattern. If the dragon knows Hypnotic Pattern, it has a low success rate, but it's possible Sneaky will succumb. (DC 14 Will vs +5 save bonus, after requiring a roll of 5 on 2d4.) Any reflex based spell will fail 95% of the time, he can't be targeted with most spells as the dragon can't see him, and should the dragon go for an item of some kind or cast Blur Sneaky can draw his wand of Dispel Magic and fire it off to remove the offense. The dragon's darkness SLA should be completely avoidable, and if not Sneaky carries a Scroll of Daylight. The dragon's full attack winds up being a bit of a pain, although a 50% miss chance after finding Sneaky's square will help to mitigate that. Attacking Sneaky's health is probably the dragon's best shot, with the breath weapon and full attack routine, Sneaky could go down quick if the dragon is lucky.

Sneaky's first full round action after going Greater Invis and moving into range, he two weapon, hasted, rapid shoots 5 thrown flasks of alchemist's fire, dealing 6d6+1 fire damage and 2 Str damage per vial. Round 1 of this full attack action should leave the dragon with a Str of 17. Round 2 of this 7, and Round 3 the dragon drops, whether via Str damage or HP damage is irrelevant. Sneaky has 5 spare alchemist fire for natural 1's, which is the only roll he misses the dragon on.

Once the dragon is incapacitated, Sneaky casts Magic Weapon off of the scroll, targeting their Spiked Gauntlet and delivers Coup de Grace until the dragon is dead.

[Piggy Knowles]

I have two other entries that should be able to complete the challenge. A pixie and a Ranger. I'm working on a Paladin one as well.

Sneaky McGee
Human Rogue 10

*snip*

Well done. Not a 100% kill, since you are still vulnerable to counterattack, and if the dragon has anything up that grants concealment (darkness, obscuring mist, etc.), you'll have to at minimum spend a round eliminating it or else you won't be able to deal sneak attack damage, which gives the dragon one more round to kill you. That said, for a solo ECL 10 rogue to take on a dragon in his lair, it's still a mighty impressive feat.

I'll take a look at some of the other suggested methods when I get some time this afternoon.

[Vintrastorm]

Since I believe any problem in D&D can be solved with proper application of a lvl 10 venerable commoner, handle animal, and bees, let's give it a shot.

Dr. Bees!!!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtXuBN1Hvc)

--- ---

BTW, can Sneaky McGee really sneak attack with bottles of alchemist fire?

[SoraWolf7]

BTW, can Sneaky McGee really sneak attack with bottles of alchemist fire?

As long as he's in a range of 30 ft or less while throwing them, then yes.

[TuggyNE]

BTW, can Sneaky McGee really sneak attack with bottles of alchemist fire?

They have attack rolls and do damage, so that's a yes.

[Gemini476]

Dr. Bees!!!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtXuBN1Hvc)

--- ---

BTW, can Sneaky McGee really sneak attack with bottles of alchemist fire?

As long as he isn't in Pathfinder, yes.

Since this is (presumably) for 3.5, sneak attacking with Alchemist's Fire is fine.

[Gotterdammerung]

BTW, can Sneaky McGee really sneak attack with bottles of alchemist fire?

Yep. Fun little optimization along this train of thought is to use the Vile Lance spell from the book of vile darkness in conjunction with an unseen seer sneak attack build to dump a massive amount of vile damage from sneak attack (vile damage ignores DR and ER resistances respectively and is very hard to heal).

But that is enough derailing from me.:smallcool:

[Meth In a Mine]

My plan is relatively simple. I'm a 10th level wizard. Use a scroll of greater planar binding to summon a pit fiend. Use scrolls to immunize it to things that would prematurely banish it. Have it rip the dragon to ribbons.

If you need more detail, ask.

Cheers.

[Techwarrior]

Well done. Not a 100% kill, since you are still vulnerable to counterattack, and if the dragon has anything up that grants concealment (darkness, obscuring mist, etc.), you'll have to at minimum spend a round eliminating it or else you won't be able to deal sneak attack damage, which gives the dragon one more round to kill you. That said, for a solo ECL 10 rogue to take on a dragon in his lair, it's still a mighty impressive feat.

I'll take a look at some of the other suggested methods when I get some time this afternoon.

Trading rounds while the dragon summons concealment and Sneaky dispels it is neutral to both parties, simply counting down the clock on how long Sneaky can maintain Greater Invisibility. Sneaky also doesn't care about Obscuring Mist in particular since Sneaky should be able to Tumble into the dragon's square. The specific wording of Fog Cloud might be problematic, but that's a 2nd level spell, and Sneaky has the Spellcraft to determine which is which, and the Dispel Magic to remove it.

Does this mean that Sneaky counts as having beat the challenge?



BTW, can Sneaky McGee really sneak attack with bottles of alchemist fire?

As stated by others, yes Sneaky can. Not only that, but as a splash weapon, Alchemist's Fire does not add (or subtract) a Strength bonus (or penalty) and targets touch AC, allowing you to completely dump Strength in this specific case.

I miss the game where I had gloves of endless Alchemist's Fire so...

[Vintrastorm]

My plan is relatively simple. I'm a 10th level wizard. Use a scroll of greater planar binding to summon a pit fiend. Use scrolls to immunize it to things that would prematurely banish it. Have it rip the dragon to ribbons.

If you need more detail, ask.

Cheers.


Greater Planar Binding isn't allowed. It's in the OP.

[Umbranar]

How will it even locate it? It's greater invisible'd and has immunity to the only two spells the dragon could use to find it.

I dont want to ruin your idea but spell immunity is impossible for dispel magic and see invisibility:

From SRD key words Marked:

Spell Immunity
Abjuration
Level: Clr 4, Protection 4, Strength 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn’t protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn’t apply. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.

Only a particular spell can be protected against, not a certain domain or school of spells or a group of spells that are similar in effect.

A creature can have only one spell immunity or greater spell immunity spell in effect on it at a time.

Dispel magic is SR: No, See invisibility is personal and doesnt affect others.

[Jack_Simth]

My plan is relatively simple. I'm a 10th level wizard. Use a scroll of greater planar binding to summon a pit fiend. Use scrolls to immunize it to things that would prematurely banish it. Have it rip the dragon to ribbons.

If you need more detail, ask.

Cheers.
Well, ignoring the little issue that GPB isn't allowed, how were you planning on beating the Charisma check as a Wizard? Pit Fiends have a Charisma of 26. Your chances of success are rather low without lots of other stuff.

[Meth In a Mine]

Well, ignoring the little issue that GPB isn't allowed, how were you planning on beating the Charisma check as a Wizard? Pit Fiends have a Charisma of 26. Your chances of success are rather low without lots of other stuff.
Good point. A sorcerer would have a better chance, but still a poor one.

Well I have another plan. Use a scroll of mass charm monster. On a bunch of trolls, and hit each of them with resist acid and protection from acid, as well as magic fang to bust DR and bear's endurance. Then tell them to go kill a dragon.
Oh, and send in a bunch of lemures (Summoned with any leftover resources) to die for my amusement.

[chaos_redefined]

I dont want to ruin your idea but spell immunity is impossible for dispel magic and see invisibility:

From SRD key words Marked:


Dispel magic is SR: No, See invisibility is personal and doesnt affect others.

I already reminded people earlier that the dragon has casting as a 5th level sorcerer, meaning it won't be casting Dispel Magic. (First and Second level spells only. It is possible that it can buy a scroll or the like though)

See invisibility is still a problem, however... With spell immunity no longer an option, I think you could use mind blank instead, assuming that the protection from divinations works here. Money might be a problem there.

One problem, however, is that Glitterdust can still work, which Irk forgot about, and also happens to be a problem for Spell Immunity, since it's SR:No.

So, Irk... instead of the spell protection you currently have... May I suggest a Minor Globe of Invulnerability, and a Mind Blank? I dunno if your funds allow that, but those two spells stop everything the dragon can do to stop you, I believe. With those in place, the only thing that works is Greater Dispel Magic. Piggy will have to confirm if Mind Blank protects against See Invisibility though.

[Piggy Knowles]

Evil Cleric-10.

*snipped instructions for creating wraiths via Create Greater Undead, getting them to murder everything in sight, and commanding the new wraiths as they spawn*

As with all things, there is very little that an arbitrarily large army of powerful undead can't handle. NI army of wraiths should of course have no trouble taking out a dragon's lair.


And another mundane challenger appears...!

He was born for this. He knew. Whenever rumours had it that the dark dragon would never be defeated, he smiled to himself. It takes a dragon to slay a dragon, they say. So be it! He would show his sire what he was worth...

6th level fighter/1st level barbarian orc half-dragon (elite array)
STR: 15 start, 1 level, 4 orc, 8 half-dragon, 4 enhance (potion), 2 enlarge (potion), 4 rage = 38
Feats: combat expertise, improved trip, weapon focus/spc for halberd, power attack, improved initiative, combat reflexes
Items of note: +1 dragon bane halberd, boosts of speed, aforementioned potions plus potion of good hope and potion of greater magic fang (+5)

Well crunched, although like Sneaky, it's not a guaranteed kill, and if the dragon buffs himself with items your numbers can change somewhat dramatically. The biggest downside I see is that if your initial trip attempt fails, the rest of the attacking sequence's assumptions don't necessarily hold, and it becomes a far more difficult fight. Still, not bad at all.


My idea so far is human Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 3 with Animal and Water domains. Maxed out Diplomacy. Commune with nautre (Animal 5 spell) to get general layout of dragon's natural terrain.

Idea being to summon creatures improved with Augment Summoning (bonus feat for Thaumaturgist 2) to shatter action economy versus the dragon itself. Water breathing for himself and planar ally (not sure which would be best yet). Lower level summoning spells for setting/bypassing traps.

Thaumaturgist 3 grants extended summons so these allies should hopefully be around long enough to find said dragon's traps and main lair.

Commune with Nature will almost certainly get you into the lair, and overwhelming the dragon with summoned/controlled creatures seems to be a popular tactic. I'd expect something like this could pull it off, although in some ways I think that core-only a druid might do this better.


10th lvl druid.

Step 1: information gathering

Commune with Nature to find out where the dragon is and the layout of his cavern. Speak with local animals and plants using speak with animals and speak with plants, respectively, in order to confirm data. Use Scrying to gather even more information.

Step 2: Excavate

Using burrowing allies and wild shape possibly even wild shape forms, plus spell support in the form of Stone Shape and Soften Earth and stone excavate a tunnel all the way up to the dragons main cavern. Use Ring of X-Ray Vision to know when you are about to break through and to position your tunnel to break through outside of 60 feet of the dragon.

Step 3. Prepare

Defensive buffs like Energy resistance acid and energy protection acid and stoneskin will severely reduce the dragons offensive capabilities. Prebuff them and share with your Animal companion. Any more long duration buffs you feel would help should be cast. Airwalk, longstrider, Freedom of movement, Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, Bulls strength, bears endurance, Animal Growth AND your best combat form for wildshape.

Before you prep spells for the day of the attack light Incense of Meditation. Go ahead and prepare the Summon Nature's Ally spells you think you will use, so they will gain the benefit of the Incense of Mediation.

Slowly and Carefully Poke a tiny sight hole through the remaining portion of the wall.

Feed tiny spiders through the hole until you can see a couple of them crawling around on the other side.

Step 4: ATTACK!

Cast Giant Vermin on the Spiders using a normal metamagic rod of silence and command them to attack the Dragon for your surprise round. Make sure and use your knowledge nature to use the web shooting type of spiders. They should follow their natural attack patterns and attempt to entangle the dragon. With an 8 touch AC landing a web is not a problem.

It doesn't matter what the dragon does at this point as it should be very hard for him to locate you, and the spiders have either done their job or failed at this point.

On your turn start casting a Summon Nature's Ally 5 with the Metamagic Silent rod and attack with the spiders if they are still around. When it finishes choose Thoqua's. 5 Thoqua's will show up because of the maximize effect of the incense of meditation. Put them as close to the dragon as you can (as his current location is impossible to predict without a GM). The thoqua's can easily hit the dragons touch AC for 2d6 fire damage per touch. They are +4 to hit and the dragons touch ac is 8 (or 6 if successfully entangled).

Use your last 4th level slot to soften up the dragon with a maximized flamestrike.

This should clue the dragon in on where you are but there is still a wall between you and it.



From here on out, your left over spell slots with automaximized heals sharespelled with your familiar. And the combat prowess of a wildshaped full buffed druid and animal companion should easily win the fight. It will take several breaths to get thru the energy protection, especially with energy resistance. Stoneskin essentially gives another 100 hp, Animal growth and bear's endurance give 40 more HP. Between you and your Animal companion you should be able to do the roughly 180hp left on the dragon before it can kill you. For instance, A giant crocodile Animal companion with improved natural attack for his 9th hd feat with the aforementioned buffs is +20 to hit and does 4d8+24 damage and you can ride it while in giant octopus form doing 1d4+12 each tentacle with 8 tentacles a round +16 to hit (20 foot reach with a gargantuan space). There are many other druid/animal companion battle combos to choose from. Shillelaughed clubs and weapon profiecency feat + power atk on your animal companion for some interesting full attacks. A huge Great CLub with shillealagh cast on it does dmg as a collosal great club (6d8). Your ape familiar can wield it by taking weapon proficiency greatclub and with power attack it can dish out some real nice dmg. +18/+13 to hit 6d8+20 for dmg (before powerattack, +6/+1 Bab) and + 13 bite 1d8+8.

Point is, given your defensive and offensive buffs, you should be able to destroy the dragon before it can destroy you.

Ah, the druid, making core attempts at balance look silly since 2003. I haven't crunched the numbers at the end, but this looks like it will work.


Human(thay) lvl 5 wizard (necromancer)/5 Red Wizard

Feats Spell focus(Nec), Greater Spell Focus( Nec), Tattoo Magic, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Craft Wondrous Item(b), Heighten Spell(B), Craft Rod (B)

Create an army of 40 hit dice worth of assorted undead. Use circle magic to load a 20th level Magic Jar with 5 spell levels left over. Pay for the spellcasting if you have to.

Heh, I forgot all about the fact that the Red Wizard is core. I probably should ban that one, since it's up there with Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper as one of the most ridiculous prestige classes around. I'll add it to the ban list now, but still put you in as a success.


Trading rounds while the dragon summons concealment and Sneaky dispels it is neutral to both parties, simply counting down the clock on how long Sneaky can maintain Greater Invisibility. Sneaky also doesn't care about Obscuring Mist in particular since Sneaky should be able to Tumble into the dragon's square. The specific wording of Fog Cloud might be problematic, but that's a 2nd level spell, and Sneaky has the Spellcraft to determine which is which, and the Dispel Magic to remove it.

Does this mean that Sneaky counts as having beat the challenge?


Yeah, I'm just bringing it up as a potential impediment. Tumbling adjacent of course leaves you vulnerable to AoOs and counterattacks, although your total concealment helps in regard to both. Your biggest concern is probably the dragon's darkness ability - it has a long enough duration that there's a good chance the dragon stays in it long term, and while you can cancel it with daylight, that gives the dragon an extra round to escape, set up, or eat you.

Still, this is mostly just nitpicking. (Alas, if you could only find a way to pick up Improved Precise Shot to ignore any concealment less than total, it would be a non-issue.) As I said before, well done. I'll add Sneaky to the OP.

[Meowmasterish]

Out of curiosity, what all has to be from the core? I know classes and items do, but what else? Also, if you create an item that is not in the core with a spell that is, can you use the item to kill the dragon? Also, what all counts as in the core? I mean rocks aren't mentioned in the core books, but you could still kill the dragon with a rock.

[Meth In a Mine]

Out of curiosity, what all has to be from the core? I know classes and items do, but what else? Also, if you create an item that is not in the core with a spell that is, can you use the item to kill the dragon? Also, what all counts as in the core? I mean rocks aren't mentioned in the core books, but you could still kill the dragon with a rock.
I think there are rules for that sort of thing in the DMG.
BTW, I think I know where you're going with this, and I like it.:smallbiggrin:

[Ivanhoe]

Well crunched, although like Sneaky, it's not a guaranteed kill, and if the dragon buffs himself with items your numbers can change somewhat dramatically. The biggest downside I see is that if your initial trip attempt fails, the rest of the attacking sequence's assumptions don't necessarily hold, and it becomes a far more difficult fight. Still, not bad at all.

Thanks! Yep, that trip better should not fail :smallbiggrin:
However, I guess at +24 vs +20 it is a pretty good chance (in particular since the half-dragon fighter/barbarian would also get more attempts in the first round of attack).



Ah, the druid, making core attempts at balance look silly since 2003. I haven't crunched the numbers at the end, but this looks like it will work.

True, but something makes me doubt that this massive army of vermin and animals approaching will allow a surprise round vs the dragon. It will buff up way before the army arrives, and thus not allow the druid to kill it without a big battle. Quite uncertain whether the druid and his army wins it, in particular since the dragon can withdraw for some time and then come back.
Also, with mage armour, the dragon's AC is 33. With an additional shield buff (given enough time to buff) and AC 37, the druid octopus and his AC are quite unlikely to hit the dragon, much less the rest of his army.:smallwink:

[Doorhandle]

Here's my 20 cents:

Bard shenanigans

Step one: Use bardic knowledge to find the lair of the dragon. With 5 ranks in Knowledge: history, int. 20 from old age, (base 16) and 10 level’s, were’s looking at a 17+ bonus. Gather information, also maxed to a formidable 14 ranks and a bonus of 22 would fill in the gaps nicely.(+6 for old age/18 charisma, 2+ for synergy with…Diplomacy? Pretty sure that synegizes.)

Step two: Find something even bigger, and angrier than the dragon that can still be reasoned with. Ideally, a metallic dragon one category better. Repeat two as much as necessary.

Step 3: Wheedle and deal with the targets. You have a mod of 24+ with all social skills once you add eagle’s grance, and of 29 with diplomacy once you add skill focus and negotiator. Apply glibness and bluff as necessary, mentioning how the black dragon has been insulting their good name, and bellowing challenges at the top of it’s lungs.

Step 4: Once your allies have been conceived to fight the dragon, stand back with popcorn and wait for the vicious demise.

This method assumes you are willing to just stand back and watch the fireworks, and are using the dragon’s loot as a bargaining tool, rather than for you own needs.

Total cost:
Glibness, eagles’ splendour: two spells you can easily get.
10 level in bard, old age
2 feats.
63 skill ranks. We get 6 a level before int for 60 of them (not including the 4x bonus at the start), so no big deal.
Popcorn.

Season with venerable, masterwork tool of diplomacy or a cloak of charisma to taste.

Bonus points: perhaps this is how all these other challenges got convinced to attack the dragon…

[Phelix-Mu]

True, but something makes me doubt that this massive army of vermin and animals approaching will allow a surprise round vs the dragon. It will buff up way before the army arrives, and thus not allow the druid to kill it without a big battle. Quite uncertain whether the druid and his army wins it, in particular since the dragon can withdraw for some time and then come back.
Also, with mage armour, the dragon's AC is 33. With an additional shield buff (given enough time to buff) and AC 37, the druid octopus and his AC are quite unlikely to hit the dragon, much less the rest of his army.:smallwink:

That's why the druid floods the dragon's cave with green slime!!:smallwink:

[Meowmasterish]

I'll bite. I chose a human sorcerer.
First, cast Protection From Energy (Acid) (Just in case). Then cast Scry and Teleport to find the dragon. After that, there are 2 ways I thought of doing this.
1. I would probably cast Prestidigitation and create a small ball of cesium in the dragon's brain. The cesium would react violently with the water in the dragon's blood, and go off with about the force of a hand grenade. I don't think that most creatures (Well, except a Tarrasque.) could recover from a gaping hole in their brain.
2. The second way would be to prepare a book, filled with 202 sheets of paper (easy for a hardcover), and on each sheet of paper, cast Explosive Runes (this should take 33.66666... days). Then, when you get to the dragon, cast Rainbow Pattern to mesmerize it. Place the book next to the dragon, walk, say, 15 feet away, and cast Dispel Magic and fail the check. The runes will explode, each dealing 6D6 points of damage. That's a total of 1212D6 points of damage, which will insta-kill this dragon.
If the dragon beats a will save though, teleport out of there immediately.

I win.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Make it an area dispel, otherwise it won't work.

[Meth In a Mine]

I'll bite. I chose a human sorcerer.
First, cast Protection From Energy (Acid) (Just in case). Then cast Scry and Teleport to find the dragon. After that, there are 2 ways I thought of doing this.
1. I would probably cast Prestidigitation and create a small ball of cesium in the dragon's brain. The cesium would react violently with the water in the dragon's blood, and go off with about the force of a hand grenade. I don't think that most creatures (Well, except a Tarrasque.) could recover from a gaping hole in their brain.
2. The second way would be to prepare a book, filled with 202 sheets of paper (easy for a hardcover), and on each sheet of paper, cast Explosive Runes (this should take 33.66666... days). Then, when you get to the dragon, cast Rainbow Pattern to mesmerize it. Place the book next to the dragon, walk, say, 15 feet away, and cast Dispel Magic and fail the check. The runes will explode, each dealing 6D6 points of damage. That's a total of 1212D6 points of damage, which will insta-kill this dragon.
If the dragon beats a will save though, teleport out of there immediately.

I win.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Prestidigitation cannot cause harm to creatures. I doubt you could create cesium with it. Also, can you voluntarily choose to fail a dispel magic check?
That said, I like your idea. It makes a big boom. :smallbiggrin:

Cheers

[krackenjack]

As with so many things, this might be easiest to do as a Bard.

1. Get a herd of yummy-looking prey animals.
2. Buy or make sets of 50 +1 Bane shuriken (or other ammo)
3. Embed the blades deep in the prey animals (note: they won't like this)
4. Allow the prey to heal.
5. Cast Magic Aura to make the shuriken appear nonmagical.
6. Fed the prey animals to the dragon. You may wish to play upon its vanity by offering them as tribute (Glibness?)
7. Collect treasure.

Figure each one will hit at least a couple times before being destroyed/excreted. Shuriken won't do much damage (although sharp metal inside your gut...) but each cut will have that fun added 2d6 bane damage. Essentially, you're getting it to eat magical ground glass. Technically the same thing might be possible with enchanted rocks (sling bullets) but I wasn't sure. Only flaw is if it notices the weapons in its meal during the first bite. Consider some Dispel Magic/Hypnotism shenanigans to get around that.

For added fun, you can similarly implant capsules of your favorite dragon-killing poison.

Also playing with ideas involving Shrink Person wearing off on something it ate, and horrible things done internally with a Portable Hole.

[TuggyNE]

Prestidigitation cannot cause harm to creatures. I doubt you could create cesium with it. Also, can you voluntarily choose to fail a dispel magic check?

You can't fail a dispel check on your own spells, since you already automatically succeed on that check.

[Zweisteine]

Class: Wizard 10, or Cleric 9/Wizard 1 if you need Plane Shift.

To get to the Dragon, Scry every day until you've guided the end of the lair for an hour, then teleport in.
Alternatively, use Locate Creature and Dimension Door.

Teleport in when the dragon is sleeping (you've been scrying it to know when it sleeps, or you teleport in when the scrying says it's asleep).
Use a scroll of Time Stop immediately upon arrival. If it fails, use a other. Then use another one or two so you have enough time to prepare (a minute or more, probably).

Now you have many options. These are some of my favorites:
Shove a portable hole over the dragon's head, then drop a bag f holding over it. The dragon's head is destroyed, and you are on the Astral Plane. Use plane shift to get back. This requires many levels of cleric, which will make it harder to use a scroll of time stop, though.
Use sovereign glue to suffocate the dragon my gluing its mouth and nose shut. Also glue it to the floor so it can't attack you. Its eyes make good targets as well.
Use sovereign glue to glue the dragon down. Put a Dcanter of Endless water out of the dragon's reach, set to geyser. Seal thw entrances (lots of spells can do that quite well), teleport out.

Of course, doing anything to a sleeping dragon might count as an attack, and that could keep the time stop from working, but sovereign glue isn't really an attack. It's more of an instant trap.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I was thinking that there is probably some debuff plus arrow of slaying that could work. I'm not sure about reliability, though.

Honestly, who was the designer that gave dragons DR/magic? The joke of all types of DR. It should really just be DR/-. I mean, Dungeons & "DRAGONS."

The literal only purpose of giving dragons the DR they have was to keep enough Commoners with slingshots from realistically being able to drive a dragon away on their own, and dragons of appropriate level shouldn't unequivocally gimp certain mundane classes if their weapons aren't strong enough. Especially monks, it's a lot harder to get +1 fists than just generally magical fists.

@OP: This isn't too much of a stretch for a 10th-level character even in a normal game as it should only come out to costing 20,000-ish gp for scrolls and mundane necessities, so here goes. First comes finding the dragon.

I would normally assume that you know the location of the marsh at least, but to maintain challenge integrity I'll avoid even that much. If I'm trying to kill it then I've clearly heard of it, and if it knows in general that people be coming to kill it I've got nothing to lose by letting it know I'm searching for it. As such, spamming Locate Creature (marsh water isn't [i]running[/] by definition of being a marsh, after all) and then using Misdirection on myself while I carefully locate the marsh in which I can find the dragon. After that, Summon Monster IV or V to summon some Dretches, give them Water Breathing if your DM insists extraplanar creatures would die without our air, have them swim around until they find the entrance to the lair and then have them telepathically report the information to me. Then they can, oh, run in and trigger some traps while I note the location and leave to refresh my spells. Location found.

A mature adult Black Dragon only has a caster level of 5, so a simple scroll-cast Contingency to set off Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser triggered when the dragon casts a spell that will directly affect you ought to do the trick, though that SR 21 will be moderately difficult to bypass since we're working with a 10th-level caster; spells that allow SR will succeed on an 11 or higher, so the route of straight casterfight is rather infeasible. A great thing to start on the path to fighting a dragon, however, is a way to get past most of the dragon's offense and a way to counter magical darkness. As it is, I'd start with a wizard. A 10th-level wizard has access to a minimum of four 5th-level spells, which we should make good use of in this fight. First, to bring many options online, you probably need a secure way to get straight to the dragon. As it is, the most cruel but efficient method is to start out by Summoning monsters to progressively run through and set off traps for you, preferably with some Detect Magic going on to reveal any Alarms you could potentially Dispel; it would be nice to have some Silence going on here, but you'll just have to have a scroll-cast Contingency on yourself to Dimension Door or Teleport somewhere if the dragon enters the same room as you. Rinse and repeat attrition tactics until the dragon stops trying or its resources are too expended for it to keep replenishing more than you're able to handle with 3rd-and-lower level spells. Step One complete.

Step 2, now. The best option is probably to cast Arcane Eye, then apply Invisibility and a scroll-cast True Seeing on the eye, then give it a guard of Lesser Planar Bound Bearded Devils who ought to be enhanced with Haste and some Fly-type spell. Since you can add some summons of your own and they can attempt their summons, you'll likely end with a reasonably large distraction force if you word your conditions properly while binding them. This way, your eye will be extremely hard to detect, as well as having time to check out the entirety of the dragon's room even if the dragon has its Darkness up at the time (this also makes up all your magical assistance, since you'll want a scroll of True Seeing for yourself too). With this, you can get a great idea of the dragon's lair, which allows... Perhaps you guessed it... Teleport. After all, if I'm now familiar with the location and everything within it, well, it's a great way to get the jump on the dragon. Step 2 complete, but... Maybe you can put those summons to use if they're still alive by the time you can -port in.

See, if you already got the Planar Binding part done before today, you've still got all your high-level slots. So now it's time for the real battle. Definitely start out with the buffs; Displacement or Blink, Haste I guess, aforementioned scroll-cast True Seeing, a means of flight, so on. Hopefully you have the aforementioned Contingent Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser already set up, so -port in now. From here, you have a few effective choices to take on the dragon, who unfortunately can't be ganked reliably with magic. First thing's first, while the Devils are still distracting it, let's limit that pesky flying. Depending on where you -ported in, a Solid Fog in the upper portion of the dragon's lair will pretty effectively keep it lowered. This has the unfortunate side effect of immediately getting the dragon's attention, but you've got your defensive buffs prepared for that very reason; you're hardly a wizard if you're going to get grappled or killed in a single round (well, barring severe bad luck anyway). After that, you have a number of ways to try to kill it; if you're confident in your ability to overcome that SR, maybe hit it with Enervate, but just to be secure I'd lean more towards the Dimensional Prison-scroll Forcecage combo. Heck, you could do that without the Solid Fog; this method might call for adding an additional buff to increase your lokelihood of hitting, though, so it might be unreliable too even if it leads to spamming Mind Fog till it works then using Save-or-Sucks till it's at your mercy. What else can we do in the limited time before the dragon eats me?

Err... Not much. Stupid Core. I'll come back when it's not 1AM to complete my plans. They will probably involve more disproportionately leveled scrolls. Yay WBL. If only there were an in-Core way to get Allips with a wizard, but I haven't thought of any.

So this post was kind of a giant waste of time unless somebody was having trouble getting to the dragon. Oh well, hopefully I can contribute more when I wake up. Cheers!

[Meowmasterish]

Prestidigitation cannot cause harm to creatures. I doubt you could create cesium with it. Also, can you voluntarily choose to fail a dispel magic check?
That said, I like your idea. It makes a big boom. :smallbiggrin:

Cheers

Actually, what Prestidigitation says is that the items you make cannot be used as weapons. The cesium is just displaying one of its chemical properties. If you create a small ball of wood with Prestidigitation, it could still catch on fire.
Also, it says create small items. It doesn't specify out of what.

[Meowmasterish]

You can't fail a dispel check on your own spells, since you already automatically succeed on that check.

If that doesn't work, have another Spellcaster make the book for you.

EDIT: You could also do an area dispel, which allows you to choose whether or not to succeed.

EDIT#2: Actually, you would have to do an area dispel, otherwise, it would only dispel one.

[Techwarrior]

Alternatively, have your familiar dispel it.

[Meth In a Mine]

If that doesn't work, have another Spellcaster make the book for you.

EDIT: You could also do an area dispel, which allows you to choose whether or not to succeed.

EDIT#2: Actually, you would have to do an area dispel, otherwise, it would only dispel one.
Fair enough, sir. Your solution looks good. I hope mine works... (And your's too, of course :smallbiggrin:)

@zweisteine: your idea of glueing the dragon down wouldn't work, seeing as black dragons can breathe underwater.

(EDIT: reread the DMG, noticed that earthquake is cleric only, so I'll have to be a cleric) I have another idea. Use earthquake to collapse her layer, and then use as many scrolls of summon monster IX to summon vrocks and have them spam at-will telekinesis to slam her trapped body with huge rocks. When/if she escapes, the vrocks attack her, and I support them with buffs.

EDIT #2: Just realized that the dragon's cavern is 100' tall. That is more than enough room for her to hide from trolls. I would like to retract my troll+acid resistance idea and submit my Cleric+Earthquake+Vrock idea. I think that should kill the dragon handily.

Cheers

[Meth In a Mine]

If there's no evidence to the contrary, does that mean I count as completing the challenge? :smallbiggrin:

[Gemini476]

Actually, what Prestidigitation says is that the items you make cannot be used as weapons. The cesium is just displaying one of its chemical properties. If you create a small ball of wood with Prestidigitation, it could still catch on fire.
Also, it says create small items. It doesn't specify out of what.

It also doesn't let you create it inside something, since you do not have Line of Effect to it. And you need to get within ten feet.

[Vrock_Summoner]

... Binding and subjugating ALL the Vrocks tends to solve most of my problems, but in Core that doesn't really come online until level 13, so drat.

If you count class features as being allowed to come along even if they're separate creatures, I think I could make a Paladin charger build that could handle this. A bit less spellzy than the other options that have been presented, at least. Give me a while to flesh this out.

[Meth In a Mine]

... Binding and subjugating ALL the Vrocks tends to solve most of my problems, but in Core that doesn't really come online until level 13, so drat.

If you count class features as being allowed to come along even if they're separate creatures, I think I could make a Paladin charger build that could handle this. A bit less spellzy than the other options that have been presented, at least. Give me a while to flesh this out.

I meant I would use a scroll, not actually learn the spell. :smallbiggrin:

[SPoilaaja]

Is planeshifting the dragon into a plane where it can't come back counted as filling the requirements?

If yes:

Assuming I get ECL 10 WBL eventhough I'd be a NPC class, I do this as expert. If not, I do it as a lame rogue.


1) Buy portable hole and a bag of holding, a wand of silence and a few bag of tricks

2) Hide outside of the lair and study the dragons patterns, so you know when to enter and have enough time to work.

3) Enter the lair and seek out traps with bag of tricks, or with search/disable device if you are a rogue

3) Craft a trap that drops the portable hole into the bag of holding when the dragon triggers it. The dragon is sucked into Astral plane and cannot come back. If the dragon is not leaving its lair often enough and for long enough times, just build the trap under silence from the wand

4) Loot the lair

[Meowmasterish]

(I'm assuming that the player's guide to Eberron counts as core.)

Choose a Warforged Cleric. Use the Detect alignment spells in the swamp. (Eventually) When you find the dragon, go home and rest for the day. Go back and find the entrance. Fall through the water, as a Warforged you don't have to breathe. Climb through the entrance and cast wall of stone sealing the entrance. Then equip your ethereal armor (this is the only magic item you can afford). Activate it and walk through the traps. When you get to the dragon's main chamber, cast wall of stone again to seal off a corner. Then light a bunch of weed (yes I mean Marijuana) on fire. Break open the wall of stone. You won't get high because you don't breathe. Once the dragon is high out of his/her mind, go up to the dragon and poison him/her. Then walk out the way you came in, go back in about a day and see if he/she is dead. If he/she is, collect your reward.:smallbiggrin:

[Meowmasterish]

Is planeshifting the dragon into a plane where it can't come back counted as filling the requirements?


In that plain, the dragon would die of starvation, so I think it does count.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I meant I would use a scroll, not actually learn the spell. :smallbiggrin:

I actually didn't see your post until after I posted my own. Commanding a small army of Vrocks is just my go-to solution to problems in games; hence my name.

But yeah, I guess scrolls work. I don't usually feel like taking chances emulating caster levels though.

[Socksy]

Grig wizard... 7? What are the rules for LA and fractional hit dice?

Max out his INT.

We can use WBL to get a competent diviner to find the thing. Scrolls are also of use. All our ranks and feats which aren't being used elsewhere go into boosting concentration.

Feats: Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (Concentration).

The plan
- Scroll of Greater Teleportation to outside the dragon's lair.
-Cast Energy Resistance. Acid, of course. (Would still be acid for any other type of Dragon.)
-Locate Object, to locate the nearest trap at any given time.
-Gaseous Form
-Silent, Still Invisibility

-Enter the lair, careful about traps, and make your way into the dragon's stomach. Resist acid 20 , DR10/magic, and DR5/cold iron will serve you well.
-Dismiss Gaseous Form.
-Place some nasty substance or other down carefully...

-Four Scrolls of Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball, followed by a Dimension Door the heck out of there before the first one detonates. Even assuming minimum CL, 17, three of those four huge blasts should beat its SR, for (51d6 x 1.5) damage. No reflex from a spell cast from inside you, I don't think. The fire should also set off whatever alkaline and nasty substance you should have carefully placed in there... :D


EDIT: Is there a fear-resist potion out there in 3.5e core? If not, some sort of Heroes' Feast or the like should get eaten first.

[Squark]

(I'm assuming that the player's guide to Eberron counts as core.)

Choose a Warforged Cleric. Use the Detect alignment spells in the swamp. (Eventually) When you find the dragon, go home and rest for the day. Go back and find the entrance. Fall through the water, as a Warforged you don't have to breathe. Climb through the entrance and cast wall of stone sealing the entrance. Then equip your ethereal armor (this is the only magic item you can afford). Activate it and walk through the traps. When you get to the dragon's main chamber, cast wall of stone again to seal off a corner. Then light a bunch of weed (yes I mean Marijuana) on fire. Break open the wall of stone. You won't get high because you don't breathe. Once the dragon is high out of his/her mind, go up to the dragon and poison him/her. Then walk out the way you came in, go back in about a day and see if he/she is dead. If he/she is, collect your reward.:smallbiggrin:


No, Core ONLY includes the DMG, PHB, and Monster manual. It doesn't include anything else, including material from other sources found in the SRD (Most of the epic rules, rules from deities and demigods, Psionics, etc).

[Meth In a Mine]

I actually didn't see your post until after I posted my own. Commanding a small army of Vrocks is just my go-to solution to problems in games; hence my name.

But yeah, I guess scrolls work. I don't usually feel like taking chances emulating caster levels though.

Oh, sorry, my bad. I see that we have something in common, though.

[Meth In a Mine]

Grig wizard... 7? What are the rules for LA and fractional hit dice?

Max out his INT.

We can use WBL to get a competent diviner to find the thing. Scrolls are also of use. All our ranks and feats which aren't being used elsewhere go into boosting concentration.

Feats: Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (Concentration).

The plan
- Scroll of Greater Teleportation to outside the dragon's lair.
-Cast Energy Resistance. Acid, of course. (Would still be acid for any other type of Dragon.)
-Locate Object, to locate the nearest trap at any given time.
-Gaseous Form
-Silent, Still Invisibility

-Enter the lair, careful about traps, and make your way into the dragon's stomach. Resist acid 20 , DR10/magic, and DR5/cold iron will serve you well.
-Dismiss Gaseous Form.
-Place some nasty substance or other down carefully...

-Four Scrolls of Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball, followed by a Dimension Door the heck out of there before the first one detonates. Even assuming minimum CL, 17, three of those four huge blasts should beat its SR, for (51d6 x 1.5) damage. No reflex from a spell cast from inside you, I don't think. The fire should also set off whatever alkaline and nasty substance you should have carefully placed in there... :D


EDIT: Is there a fear-resist potion out there in 3.5e core? If not, some sort of Heroes' Feast or the like should get eaten first.

For lack of evidence to the contrary, should we assume that Socksy and I win the challenge? :smallbiggrin:

[Vrock_Summoner]

Oh, sorry, my bad. I see that we have something in common, though.

I approve of your style whole-heartedly.

Now, to think about that Paladin... Build and plan shall be posted within the next two hours.

[Kennisiou]

I'm pretty sure you can level 10 core-only a diplomancer that would just walk up to the dragon, say hi, and have it become fanatically devoted to him.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I'm pretty sure you can level 10 core-only a diplomancer that would just walk up to the dragon, say hi, and have it become fanatically devoted to him.

Congratulations, you just became part of the treasure hoard in one piece. Now how do you actually kill it? I'm not expecting a dragon to keep items proficient for killing itself as part of the hoard.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm pretty sure you can level 10 core-only a diplomancer that would just walk up to the dragon, say hi, and have it become fanatically devoted to him.

As I recall, the term in the OP was "slay."

[123456789blaaa]

Congratulations, you just became part of the treasure hoard in one piece. Now how do you actually kill it? I'm not expecting a dragon to keep items proficient for killing itself as part of the hoard.


As I recall, the term in the OP was "slay."

People who have their attitudes moved to "Fanatic" will give their lives to serve you (linky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)). They will remain Fanatic for one day plus one day per point of the character’s Charisma bonus. This hypothetical diplomancer could just tell the dragon to stop breathing or whatever. The possibilities are endless.

[Phelix-Mu]

People who have their attitudes moved to "Fanatic" will give their lives to serve you (linky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)). They will remain Fanatic for one day plus one day per point of the character’s Charisma bonus. This hypothetical diplomancer could just tell the dragon to stop breathing or whatever. The possibilities are endless.

Linky (and the fanatic thing itself) comes from the Epic Level Handbook. "Core Only," as defined in the OP, doesn't include that book (PHB, DMG, MM only).

[123456789blaaa]

Linky (and the fanatic thing itself) comes from the Epic Level Handbook. "Core Only," as defined in the OP, doesn't include that book (PHB, DMG, MM only).

Ah right. My bad then.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah right. My bad then.

No big deal. I'm glad to have to have worked out the reason that approach isn't workable anyway, as I believe it was dismissed several pages ago, but the fanatic issue hadn't been addressed directly.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

So, you can't even use rules from non-core? Erratas count? What about rules compendium?

[TuggyNE]

So, you can't even use rules from non-core? Erratas count? What about rules compendium?

Core Errata is part of Core, since it is specifically corrections that must be made to the Core materials. Other books are not.