Fiendbinder base class, Demon and Devil early level binds

[G.Cube]

Maybe I should have explained that I'm attempting to create a base class version of the Tome of Magic Prestige Class, the Fiendbinder (P.223), ha!

I'm looking for Demons and Devils. I need either one or the other for each level, going from one to ten. I'd like to keep them cool, but not over-powered. They will be used for summoning purposes, and will be bound to a PC until either dismissed or it gets killed. I began looking through the Summon Monster monsters, but was unsure as to whether them being perma bound would tip the balance.
I have a list made out, but I wish to see what more experienced players and brewers think, as this is my very first homebrew project.

[G.Cube]

Alright, let me try it this way then; I've compiled a list of what I think is an at least somewhat balanced list of bindable friends, you guys PEACH and tell me if any of these are out of balanced power guidelines.

Class Level: Demon/Devil

1 Abyssal Maw

2 Abyssal Skulker

3 Lemure

4 Dretch

5 Quasit

6 Imp

7 Nightmare

8 Bearded devil

9 Chain Devil

10 Erinyes


Notes:

By Fiend I mean anything with the Outsider (Evil) Types

For ease of use and availablilty, I would only like to use creatures from MM1, SRD, and the WotC Website.

I haven't included a gold price yet for binding, I didn't want to start working on it until I had a well balanced set list of fiends.

The binds for the last ten levels will be as they are in the original prestige class.



UPDATE: The list has been reworked, but it's still shaky. The problem seems to be that from the Imp down, the list of option for Fiends is too weak, then when it hits Nightmare on up, they're way too powerful, I might have to unfortunately change my original plan and go splat book diving for more balanced fiends.

[G.Cube]

100 views and no responses yet. Would anyone be interested in a review for a review? PM me a link to your homebrew, I'll review it, and in return, you review this prject! Any takers?

[BornValyrian]

I can't see much wrong with the Lemure and the Dretch, except that it will be pretty hard to overcome their DR at first level, making them exceptionally durable. Other than that I don't know. I am excited to see this expanded class though. Fiendbinder is the only thing truenaming works for in ToM

[Mehangel]

I noticed that for level 1 you have an Abyssal Maw as a proposed Binding. Upon reading the stats of Abyssal Maw and comparing them to lets say a Celestial Giant Fire Beetle, it is obvious that the Abyssal Maw might be more suited for a level 2 binding. Having a creature summoned that can ignore up to 20 damage from 4 of the 5 main elements is just disturbing. Hit Point, wise it is fine, attack is fine. The Abyssal Skulker is alright to me as a level 2, but its also practically a copy of the Abyssal Maw except that it has 2 attacks instead of 1. I know you said you were trying to stick to only the MM1, SRD, and WotC site, but the Book of Vile Darkness has a 1 HD Evil Outsider called the Mane, it has a bunch of different abilities, which may be exploited. Also take a look at the Kaorti from the Fiend Folio. If you dont want to waste time looking at indexes for fiends, you can also use The Monster Finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de) just put in the details you want such as Creature Type: Outsider, Subtype: Evil and search... It might save time. I will take a look at the rest of the monsters on the list later on today..

[BornValyrian]

I would say use either the mane or the lemure for level 1. (I second the use of the mane, which also exists in Fiendish Codex 1)

[G.Cube]

I noticed that for level 1 you have an Abyssal Maw as a proposed Binding. Upon reading the stats of Abyssal Maw and comparing them to lets say a Celestial Giant Fire Beetle, it is obvious that the Abyssal Maw might be more suited for a level 2 binding. Having a creature summoned that can ignore up to 20 damage from 4 of the 5 main elements is just disturbing. Hit Point, wise it is fine, attack is fine. The Abyssal Skulker is alright to me as a level 2, but its also practically a copy of the Abyssal Maw except that it has 2 attacks instead of 1. I know you said you were trying to stick to only the MM1, SRD, and WotC site, but the Book of Vile Darkness has a 1 HD Evil Outsider called the Mane, it has a bunch of different abilities, which may be exploited. Also take a look at the Kaorti from the Fiend Folio. If you dont want to waste time looking at indexes for fiends, you can also use The Monster Finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de) just put in the details you want such as Creature Type: Outsider, Subtype: Evil and search... It might save time. I will take a look at the rest of the monsters on the list later on today..

I think you may be right, it's unfortunate though, do you think maybe it's possible to stick to OGL books and sources and still make it work? That way I could take on the monster stat block at the end of the class, so everyone wanting to play it could, regardless of the books they have available. I will definitely look over those creatures when I get a chance, I know this list is horrible right now, I mean just the plain Nightmare has Astral Projection as an SLA. It's going to take a lot of work and splatbook diving to make a solid, balanced, and fun list, so I really appreciate all input given.


I would say use either the mane or the lemure for level 1. (I second the use of the mane, which also exists in Fiendish Codex 1)

Same goes for you, thanks for the input! :)

[BornValyrian]

Have you considered giving the character a few options at each level? The Hell Hound and the Yeth Hound would both be pretty cool binds, both at CR 3.

As for the Nightmare, it would probably be best to limit the astral projection ability in some way, maybe even banning it completely.

[G.Cube]

Have you considered giving the character a few options at each level? The Hell Hound and the Yeth Hound would both be pretty cool binds, both at CR 3.



I have, I've even thought about taking it a step further, and offering the FB's choice of either a Demon OR A Devil (Or other Evil Outsider), but I plan on giving a small spell list to the class as well, and 20 different Fiends is plenty of options, I can't imagine needing or wanting to bind every outsider you can get, if nothing more because you'll use up all of your WBL, and eventually certain fiends will become obsolete as you level.



As for the Nightmare, it would probably be best to limit the astral projection ability in some way, maybe even banning it completely.

I fear I'm going to end up needing to this this with more then a few Fiends, which I'm not entirely fond of, to me having to do this takes away from the most attractive (And entire) point of the class, to play (both RP and Fight as) Demons and Devils.

[Mehangel]

Have you considered giving the character a few options at each level? The Hell Hound and the Yeth Hound would both be pretty cool binds, both at CR 3.

As for the Nightmare, it would probably be best to limit the astral projection ability in some way, maybe even banning it completely.

You know I was thinking the same thing. What if you had 2 or possibly 3 choices, 1 Demon (CE), 1 Devil (LE), and 1 Fiendish Creature (NE).

Maybe Something like this:
Please note that I have put in italics all monsters found in SRD for your convenience...

1) LE: Lemure NE: Kaorti (Fiend Folio) CE: Mane (Book of Vile Darkness)

2) LE: Devil: Imp NE: Vargouille CE: Abyssal Maw (Monster Manual 2)

3) LE: Hell Hound NE: Yeth Hound CE: Rutterkin (tanar'ri) (Book of Vile Darkness)

4) LE: Barghest NE: Yugoloth: Voor (Monster Manual 4) CE: Skulvyn (Fiend Folio)

5) LE: Bearded Devil (barbazu) NE: Nightmare CE: Demon: Bar-lgura (tanar'ri) (Book of Vile Darkness)

6) LE: Hellcat (bezekira) NE: Demonhive Queen (Monster Manual 4) CE: Babau

7) LE: Erinyes NE: Orc Plague Speaker (Monster Manual 4) CE: Succubus

8) LE: Bone Devil (osyluth) NE: Night Hag CE: Vrock

9) LE: Barbed Devil (hamatula) NE: Nightmare, Cauchemar CE: Hezrou

10) LE: Ice Devil (gelugon) NE: Demodand: Kelubar (Fiend Folio) CE: Glabrezu

[G.Cube]

You know I was thinking the same thing. What if you had 2 or possibly 3 choices, 1 Demon (CE), 1 Devil (LE), and 1 Fiendish Creature (NE).

Maybe Something like this:
Please note that I have put in italics all monsters found in SRD for your convenience...

1) LE: Lemure NE: Kaorti (Fiend Folio) CE: Mane (Book of Vile Darkness)

2) LE: Devil: Imp NE: Vargouille CE: Abyssal Maw (Monster Manual 2)

3) LE: Hell Hound NE: Yeth Hound CE: Rutterkin (tanar'ri) (Book of Vile Darkness)

4) LE: Barghest NE: Yugoloth: Voor (Monster Manual 4) CE: Skulvyn (Fiend Folio)

5) LE: Bearded Devil (barbazu) NE: Nightmare CE: Demon: Bar-lgura (tanar'ri) (Book of Vile Darkness)

6) LE: Hellcat (bezekira) NE: Demonhive Queen (Monster Manual 4) CE: Babau

7) LE: Erinyes NE: Orc Plague Speaker (Monster Manual 4) CE: Succubus

8) LE: Bone Devil (osyluth) NE: Night Hag CE: Vrock

9) LE: Barbed Devil (hamatula) NE: Nightmare, Cauchemar CE: Hezrou

10) LE: Ice Devil (gelugon) NE: Demodand: Kelubar (Fiend Folio) CE: Glabrezu

Wow! I really appreciate all the work you did here, but as above, I think cherry picking the 20 best fitting fiends is plenty. What you've proposed here, cause I'm assuming you'll want to do this for all twenty levels, is give sixty different options over a twenty level span, each needing to be critique, reviewed, and balanced on the Brewer's side of things. On the player's side of things, that's quite a lot of book keeping, between stat blocks, keeping track of SLAs, and altering the fiends you're currently binding!

To sum up, I feel like 20 fiends, and small spell list, and a few class features are going to be more then enough. Feel free to take your idea and run with it if you've been inspired though, nothing wrong with more Brewers giving more versions out there!

It's getting late here, but be assured I'll be spending a good portion of my weekend reviewing, balancing, cursing, erasing, rebalancing, and rechecking these fiends, and hopefully I'll be able to give something presentable before the weekend's end. Thanks again for the help guys, keep it coming!

[Mehangel]

Oh... I must've misread your earlier post... I thought the 10 demons were to mimic summon monster spells.. In that case what I posted should be multiplied by 2.

For example:

Level 2) LE: Lemure NE: Kaorti (Fiend Folio) CE: Mane (Book of Vile Darkness)
Level 4) LE: Devil: Imp NE: Vargouille CE: Abyssal Maw (Monster Manual 2)
Level 6) LE: Hell Hound NE: Yeth Hound CE: Rutterkin (tanar'ri) (Book of Vile Darkness)
Level 8) LE: Barghest NE: Yugoloth: Voor (Monster Manual 4) CE: Skulvyn (Fiend Folio)
Level 10) LE: Bearded Devil (barbazu) NE: Nightmare CE: Demon: Bar-lgura (tanar'ri) (Book of Vile Darkness)
Level 12) LE: Hellcat (bezekira) NE: Demonhive Queen (Monster Manual 4) CE: Babau
Level 14) LE: Erinyes NE: Orc Plague Speaker (Monster Manual 4) CE: Succubus
Level 16) LE: Bone Devil (osyluth) NE: Night Hag CE: Vrock
Level 18) LE: Barbed Devil (hamatula) NE: Nightmare, Cauchemar CE: Hezrou
Level 20) LE: Ice Devil (gelugon) NE: Demodand: Kelubar (Fiend Folio) CE: Glabrezu

The odd level monsters would probably be something like:

Level 1) choose a CR 1/2 animal or vermin give it fiendish template.
Level 3) choose a CR 1 animal or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 5) choose a CR 3 animal or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 7) choose a CR 5 animal or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 9) choose a CR 6 magical beast or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 11) choose a CR 8 magical beast or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 13) choose a CR 9 magical beast or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 15) choose a CR 10 aberration or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 17) choose a CR 11 aberration or humanoid, give it fiendish template
Level 19) choose a CR 12 aberration or humanoid, give it fiendish template

[G.Cube]

Just an update in case anyone is looking forward to this, I am still working on this, I simply started a new job a little over a month ago and work nearly sixty hours a week, and have only had two days off so far, plus I have two little ones to daddy. It will be finished, albeit if a bit slowly, I am working on this when I am able!