How do I convince my DM that he's making the encounters too difficult?

[AnonymousPepper]

In tonight's session, as we moved into our new house, he had a bunch of rogues kidnap us for the purpose of executing two of our party members with dragon blood. The party is third-level, by the way.

The rogues, by the DM's explanation, spammed Guidance of the Avatar to break through a DC40 lock on the front door and Dispel Magic to get through the Arcane Locks on our individual doors, completely brute-forcing their way into the house and forcing us to make DC25 fort saves and listen checks to avoid being kidnapped. One party member managed to make the fort save with a spectacular roll but didn't wake up.

Then, he was having the two party members with dragon blood executed publicly. There were seven enemies of equal or greater level, including two spellcasters. The two people to be executed were disarmed completely, the other two were bound up, and the paladin had to ride in to join the encounter.

We had three options - to try and reason them out of killing our bard and ranger (the DC of which was impossible for us), to fight them, or to let our guys die.

We tried to fight but it was just hopeless and we were getting our asses handed to us.

The one level 3 wizard we were fighting popped a Sudden Maximize lesser orb of acid on me, dropping me. The leader of the enemy just so happened to have a magic torch on him to burn through my Web spell.

In the end, thanks to some perfect Web placement from me, a crit from our rogue on an enemy, a spectacularly lucky stabilization roll from myself, and an incredibly lucky connection on a Smite Evil from the Pally - who was on 7 health at the time! - with max rolls on several of her damage dice and with aid from the bard's Dragonfire Inspiration, we barely - BARELY - managed to escape with our lives.

Basically, the only reason the party survived was by an unusual amount of stupidly good luck.

And this is nothing new. The DM has been throwing overwhelming amounts of high-op characters at us the whole time. My first character, an Artificer, died to being singled out by a perfectly-optimized Orc barbarian with Diehard. In our last session, we had to clear a house of almost 20 - 20!! - Rogue/Monk multiclassers, every single one of whom had Snatch Arrow and could magically snatch an arrow even when entangled in a Web. Again, we only survived that thanks to some very, very lucky dice rolls.

Today's session, though, with the Guidance of the Avatar-spamming Rogues dropping DC25 Fort saves on us and putting us up against seven high-op foes with several disarmed party members, was extremely egregious.

We're not a high-op party, at all. We have a Human 2HF Ranger with a Dragon level (forget what exactly it is, but he's got currently-nonfunctional dragon wings), we have a Human Paladin, we have a Rogue Kender, we have a Human Bard, and we have me, an Aleithian Dwarf Wizard. The first two are completely new to D&D, the third is semi-experienced (one campaign), the fourth is experienced (another campaign's DM), and then there's me (played a couple campaigns). Of those, the only optimized build is me, and I'm just a transmuter. I banned Evoc and I'm only there to buff the party; I am explicitly playing an optimized build as a thought exercise for myself and to make the game fun for everyone else; I make a point of not casting blasts and making certain that the others get to do the killing and get the fun of it, particularly the new guys.

In NO way is the party at the level of the encounters he's throwing at us. We're escaping by dumb luck, pure and simple.

So with all of that vented out...

How can I convince the DM that he's being too hard on us?

He's a first time DM and he's trying - and mind you, he's created a good and intricate story. But he's thus far refused to agree that he's overdoing the difficulty. When I approached him tonight, all he said was "Not all encounters are meant to be won by fighting, and not all encounters are winnable." Which is fine and good, but, again, negotiating our way out of it turned out to be that impossible, and from that point *not* fighting would have meant the guaranteed death by hanging of two fifths of the party.

His inexperience with DMing is really showing, and that's a shame because I really like the world he's built.

[RegalKain]

Ok, before I rant or rave about anything, I'd like some more information, you gave race/class, what level are all of you? 3 around the board? I can't say the challenges are impossible (As you're all living with no deaths right now.) but hard sure, when you say talking was impossible, how do you mean? Did he straight up tell you that the DC wasn't within reach? If so send him to GITP and many here will happily explain why you shouldn't railroad (Which is what an impossible DC is, in many cases.) your PCs. Talk to your other party members as well, see if they feel the same as you do, if you all feel the same way, try talking to your DM, asking him if he'll tone it down a bit until you guys are of a higher level and know your characters better.

On a complete side-topic, does he even WANT to DM? I've sometimes questioned our DM as being bored with DMing as simply trying to TPK us. (We switch DMs whenever there is a TPK) I dunno how the dynamic works in your group.

[AnonymousPepper]

Well, our Pally pulled a combined total of 21 on the diplo on it (roll of 17). He didn't come out and say it was impossible, but there was very little chance of beating it if that was the case. If we weren't being forced to fight, it was very close to it - as in, not fighting was an afterthought at best. The Pally had the highest diplo in the party besides the Bard, who, well, seeing how he was the subject of the execution, probably would have had a lower effective diplo check in any case. And also in any case, the guys doing the executing were religious fanatics, so, also not likely to be easily swayed.

And yes, party is level 3 all around and for the most part poorly optimized.

And also yes, he really does want to DM.

I just think - and no offense to him because he does post here - that he's bloody terrible at figuring out what an appropriate challenge level is for the party.

Again, we didn't get out of these encounters because of skill, we got out of them because we rolled exceedingly luckily.

[RegalKain]

Well, our Pally pulled a combined total of 21 on the diplo on it (roll of 17). He didn't come out and say it was impossible, but there was very little chance of beating it if that was the case. If we weren't being forced to fight, it was very close to it - as in, not fighting was an afterthought at best.

And yes, party is level 3 all around and for the most part poorly optimized.

And also yes, he really does want to DM.

I just think - and no offense to him because he does post here - that he's bloody terrible at figuring out what an appropriate challenge level is for the party.

Again, we didn't get out of these encounters because of skill, we got out of them because we rolled exceedingly luckily.

I don't think it's any offense at all, when I first started DMing I was blessed with a very, very patient group as my first two encounters killed a party member each. (They were CR appropriate as well.) I did some DM Fiat to bring them back to life, and our first five-six sessions went as such until I learned my players abilities, and the things their characters could do. (I think it was on the sixth session that I killed someone in a CR appropriate battle and left him dead, everyone was fine with it as he's the one who made the mistake.) He may just need time to adjust, however if he's deaf to the idea he could be WRONG then you have an issue, as a DM who refuses to listen to the complaints and issues of their players aren't destined to DM for long.

As for the diplo check, to be fair, at level 3, that's not all that high actually and your Paladin has a REALLY bad diplo check. Even without optimizing a 14 Cha is a +2 alone. (Paladins are pretty MAD though) The Paladin only had a +4 to their check, which says he had no, or almost no ranks in Diplomacy, or has a 10 Charisma, either way you guys have no real party face right now, something someone may want to slowly build into being, especially if you have a lot/any OOCombat situations. Again, how do the other players feel? If they all feel he is being a bit to tough on you guys, then you should all simply ask him to step it down a notch, or at least put in a very cheap way to bring people back from the dead until he learns how to not obliterate you guys.

Edit: Another thing to note, actually, is instead of using Diplo, maybe you could have used Bluff/Intimidate? I don't know your DM, or expect to know his plans, but if he knows your character sheets well, he may have been expecting something completely different to happen, if he doesn't know your character sheets, suggest to him to get an index card or three, right down (Or have players right it down neatly) your To-Attack bonuses, HP Totals, Fort/Ref/Will saves, and a few choice skills, like Listen/Spot/Search etc. This can also help in other situations, as I've DMed over the years I don't ask my players for a Spot check, I ask them for a D20 roll, it is their job to keep me up to date on any and all changes to those checks, this is to keep the party in suspense without ruining what's coming in a Meta way.

Edit2: Oh geez, ok yeah a 27 diplo check that's not good enough at those levels, feels really rail-roadey to me. :(

[AnonymousPepper]

Actually, I rechecked her sheet. What I remember is the roll, which was a 17. Her diplo is +10. My bad.

Edit again: I rechecked the roll20 log. Roll was 12, not 17. 22 total. Goddammit, my memory isn't the best.

Still, kinda high considering what we went up against if that one roll didn't go very, very well. Especially because that was just a single roll, there weren't any other chances. That roll failed, we were done.

[Gemini476]

Just checking, since this is kind of the "is your computer plugged in" of roleplaying solutions, but have you tried talking to your DM? Just tell 'em that you believe that the encounters are too difficult for your party, and maybe see if you can get your fellow players to back you up.

[AnonymousPepper]

Just checking, since this is kind of the "is your computer plugged in" of roleplaying solutions, but have you tried talking to your DM? Just tell 'em that you believe that the encounters are too difficult for your party, and maybe see if you can get your fellow players to back you up.

I did try talking to him today, and I posted his response. His exact words were "Not every fight can be won by stabbing. And not every fight can be won. Period." Which, again, is true, except that he forced us to fight those fights or else we'd guaranteed lose two party members... and we were in that situation entirely because he used literally the cheesiest methods possible to get us into it (seriously? of all things, Guidance of the Avatar spam?).

I don't know if I can get the newbies in the party behind me to back me up on this, as they have no frame of reference, either.

[rmnimoc]

I've always found that frequent and excessive TPKs are a pretty good way to convince the DM that he might be going a bit overboard. Just die. Around the third time or so your DM will probably get the hint.

[Alent]

Depending on how optimized the Dragonfire Inspiration is, I can kind of see this as an in game retaliation for breaking his game.

DFI can be brutal on an inexperienced DM. Ask him if the DFI is too much for him to balance encounters around. I can't believe the Ranger is too much for him, but it might have been guilt by association, and he just really wanted to get rid of the bard so he could actually use the CR system as written again.

[AnonymousPepper]

I've always found that frequent and excessive TPKs are a pretty good way to convince the DM that he might be going a bit overboard. Just die. Around the third time or so your DM will probably get the hint.

I think that would completely drive the newbies away, though. It was frustrating enough for me to have to throw away my carefully-crafted Artificer. I can't imagine what it'd be like for two new players to experience multiple TPKs in their first game.


Depending on how optimized the Dragonfire Inspiration is, I can kind of see this as an in game retaliation for breaking his game.

DFI can be brutal on an inexperienced DM. Ask him if the DFI is too much for him to balance encounters around. I can't believe the Ranger is too much for him, but it might have been guilt by association, and he just really wanted to get rid of the bard so he could actually use the CR system as written again.

It's somewhat optimized (+3d6 Sonic right now), but not much else about him is. And in any case, the whole death-to-dragonbloods thing is also going in the campaign story and was even before the guy made his character. Racism and prejudice has been a common theme in the campaign, especially against orcs, dwarves, and dragonbloods. As an example, my dwarf entered the party when they saved him from a lynching.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

If you can't roll high enough diplomacy, then present your case to the NPC in a way that he can't say no. Even if he isn't persuaded at first, keep pressing till he agrees. We have a party with 3 ppl who have +20 on diplomacy, and when the DM pulls the "its eeeevil by nature, you can't persuade it" or something like that we waste 1-2 hours talking. :smallcool:

And I agree the only way for the DM to see he is making too hard encounters is to TPK all the time. Or whine about it like all the time.

[some guy]

The rogues, by the DM's explanation, spammed Guidance of the Avatar to break through a DC40 lock on the front door and Dispel Magic to get through the Arcane Locks on our individual doors, completely brute-forcing their way into the house
Iffy and quite expensive, but alright, they might have gathered information about the group and might have a patron to fund this operation.


and forcing us to make DC25 fort saves and listen checks to avoid being kidnapped. One party member managed to make the fort save with a spectacular roll but didn't wake up.

But, this? What's this all about? Anyone wakes up if they're being handled. Maybe poison sleeping gas? But even then, if a player succeeds a roll, he/she succeeds a roll. Straight up rail roading. Try to address this without being accusatory, he might have a reasonable explanation.

[Hytheter]

perfectly-optimized Orc barbarian with Diehard.

:smallconfused:

Die Hard isn't exactly hitting the ceiling optimisation-wise

It does seem like the DM is being a little... intense though, especially with new players in the group.

[Zweisteine]

Remind your DM that railroading is bad, and that forcing you I to
any encounters, and especially impossible ones, is serious railroading.

Talk to the new players. Tell them that the fights are absurdly hard (unless they know), and that you think TPKs will help solve the problem. If they agree, do it.

If you can't get a TPK, change tactics. Get your character killed. When you make a new one, optimize it to the Nine Hells. Then stand back in vey fight until the party is clearly about to lose, then win in one strike. After a few fights like that, ask the DM where the party would be without you.

[Rubik]

Edit2: Oh geez, ok yeah a 27 diplo check that's not good enough at those levels, feels really rail-roadey to me. :(Why would you do this? Since you edit in responses to posts earlier than what you're responding to, I can only assume you're trying to hide your responses from the person you're talking to and don't want that person actually seeing what you're saying.

Why are you even posting if you don't want people to see your responses?

[Bacchus]

Seems your party is lucky more often than not. So it seems either you have exceeding luck or he encounters are on the hard end of the appropriate scale

[roguemetal]

It seems to me the DM is looking for a mid-high optimization game. An NPC of level 3 using Sudden Maximize requires a party that can generally do the same. Hopefully those differences in power get straightened out by level 6 or so, which has been my experience in high optimization games.

Roll with it for a while, and if the other players die, assist them in building optimized characters.

[deathwolf669]

Talk to the newbies and plan your joint suicides, help them pick characters they want to be in the long run, and then aim for everyone to die at least twice (as mentioned before), but then again I am used to playing with DMs (Plymouth Uni game soc I am looking at you here!) who might see how much of a group you can wipe out in one go, but my current team are a bit like you, would be unhappy if they died.

I normally have 2 spare characters written up as death isn't a new concept to me but so far I have only ever lost 1 character in my 14 years of gaming. Trust me sometimes I find a new character and then have great rolls so don't die :(

[The Trickster]

Talk to him again, but be firm. Let him know that this type of game is not fun for the party. D&D is a group game, and if most of the group is miserable, then it won't work. There are ways to make the game challenging without resulting to cheese. If he still disagrees, then just say that you will sit this game out. Some people just need a small kick in the pants to get to them.

[Eldonauran]

Hmm, sounds like that DM has a play style similar to my DM. Every battle we have is at least +2 to the normal CR. Of course, we don't have 3 - 4 battles every day and none of use are what you would call optimized. I have a halfling barbarian, you see.

I was unprepared for that kind of play style and it rubbed me a bit wrong at first. Eventually, I got to enjoying it. When every bugbear you run across has powerful build, and makes full use of it (an example my DM uses, a lot) you find ways to succeed, or die.

Now, if your DM is giving you 3 - 4 encounters a day like that, I would subtly bring up that the game was designed around have so much resources available and CR+2 battles are supposed to be hard and rare, in an adventuring day. Boss battles are fun, they just can't be every battle.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It seems to me the DM is looking for a mid-high optimization game. An NPC of level 3 using Sudden Maximize requires a party that can generally do the same. Hopefully those differences in power get straightened out by level 6 or so, which has been my experience in high optimization games.
Yeah, this one. Ask if he can either bring the optimization level down a bit, or allow you guys to rebuild your characters to bring your optimization up.

[KorbeltheReader]

Putting in a vote for more communication and trust rather than sabotaging your own game by intentionally dying or some other nonsense. That kind of "I'll show him!" passive aggression more often than not leads to each side escalating and ultimately a broken game group.

Your game sounds hard, it's true, but are you sure the other players feel the same way about it being too difficult? If it's just you, maybe you should give it time. It may be that everyone ups their game to adapt. It may be that your luck runs out and people start dying, and the GM gets the hint. It may be that that everyone else likes the hardcore style!

If it isn't just you and the rest of the table wants the game taken down a notch, since you've already talked to the GM privately, now maybe the 5 of you should have an intervention with the GM together to ask that he not make every combat a face-melting nightmare. Maybe he just doesn't realize that he's a better optimizer than most of the party, and that's cool for boss fights, but it's a little much for every orc mook you come across.

[Spore]

This does not sound like a challenge but an excuse to kill PCs.

[Crake]

How many of the "Lucky" rolls are behind the DM screen? I have a DM who does a similar thing, many of the encounters we get thrown at us are pretty difficult, and I've resigned to a TPK many times, but somehow we always manage to get away, even if several people die, so if the DM doesn't want a TPK, you aren't gonna get one.

[RPGaddict28]

DM here, first off, I want to say the railroading was bad on my part, I acknowledge it, and we can get of it.

Secondly, the encounter wasn't made to be won by fighting, all the bard and ranger had to was make a DC 15 strength check to break free, then run. You also forte that part of the reason why it was so hard was one enemy got a triple crit on the paladin. Also, you decided to fight to the death, and while it wasn't easy, you got way more loot. A +1 great sword, +1 longsword, full plate, 2000 GP, and 2000 GP gauntlets that double throw range.

[HaikenEdge]

DM here, first off, I want to say the railroading was bad on my part, I acknowledge it, and we can get of it.

Secondly, the encounter wasn't made to be won by fighting, all the bard and ranger had to was make a DC 15 strength check to break free, then run. You also forte that part of the reason why it was so hard was one enemy got a triple crit on the paladin. Also, you decided to fight to the death, and while it wasn't easy, you got way more loot. A +1 great sword, +1 longsword, full plate, 2000 GP, and 2000 GP gauntlets that double throw range.

How were the bard and ranger restrained? Rope? Manacles? Multiple goons holding them down?

Also, what kind of execution was it to be? Hanging? Beheading? Even if they had broke free of the restraints, would they have survived the AoOs they'd have provoked?

Also, what were the strength attributes on the Bard and Ranger? In most groups, a human Bard won't have a Str over 10, so there was a 75% chance failure rate for the character; the ranger, it seems, was probably the only one who could have broken the ropes, but I assume repeated attempts would be noticed and would have expedited their executions.

Honestly, it just seems like a badly executed encounter; bursting rope is a DC 23 strength check, so if you told them they were bound by rope, they probably wouldn't have tried, because it would pretty much have been impossible for the Bard, and nigh impossible for the ranger even if the ranger had 18 STR (a roll of 19 would have been required).

I think where the encounter went wrong was that you expected the PCs to do one thing, and when they didn't because it seemed like something they were incapable of it (not knowing the DC unless you told them) because it seemed viscerally impossible, and their diplomacy attempt failed, the only option they perceived themselves to have was combat, and they found that incredibly difficult.

Ultimately, I think future scenarios would probably better benefit the group in question if there were multiple possible win conditions (and yes, I consider bursting the restraints and escaping to be a win condition in this case); it seems the group seems to be chaffing against the, "It's the single way I've thought up, or it's fight for your life," scenarios they perceive themselves to be in. That's to say, I'm not condoning the fact the group seems to be resorting to combat as a second option, but at level 3, their options are kind of limited, so it wasn't as if they could just shatter or time hop their restraints.

[Fitz10019]

It does sound railroady, but can you explain the public executions? It sounds like he's trying to teach you the culture of the setting. Perhaps your dragon-blooded PCs should be keeping a lower profile. Are you flying around Salem with cauldrons and broomsticks?

Are you taking his plot hooks, or are you beating the bushes? Perhaps you're picking fights above your level, and ignoring the clues he expects you to pursue.

Also, how did you get a house? Did you spend your WBL on real estate? Or did the DM just 'give' it to you? There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[nevermind: ninja'd by the OP's DM himself]

[Maginomicon]

DM here, first off, I want to say the railroading was bad on my part, I acknowledge it, and we can get of it.

Secondly, the encounter wasn't made to be won by fighting, all the bard and ranger had to was make a DC 15 strength check to break free, then run. You also forte that part of the reason why it was so hard was one enemy got a triple crit on the paladin. Also, you decided to fight to the death, and while it wasn't easy, you got way more loot. A +1 great sword, +1 longsword, full plate, 2000 GP, and 2000 GP gauntlets that double throw range.
So...

"All you had to do was ____."

...

Really?

Feel lucky that your players didn't walk out on you. You clearly didn't present the situation as one with reasonably plausible outs or solutions.

Here are the options as your players thought plausible:

We had three options - to try and reason them out of killing our bard and ranger (the DC of which was impossible for us), to fight them, or to let our guys die.

"Break free and run" wasn't on that list. That should tell you bookoos about the real problem here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoonLogicPuzzle). They probably didn't think that running was an option. You might want to make that more clear to them from now on with a passive intelligence or passive wisdom score (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310882).

[Fitz10019]

DM here...

Good on you for learing to DM. The OP has complimented the world you've build, and that's a great start.

Encounter balancing is something you'll catch on to as you go.

The next time you feel a public execution is appropriate, schedule it for three days hence. That way the PCs have time to address the situation and choose an approach. Try to avoid deciding in advance what their options are. Diplomacy? Bluff? Tunnelling? Politics? Bribery? Bargaining? Keep an open mind.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

DM here, first off, I want to say the railroading was bad on my part, I acknowledge it, and we can get of it.

Secondly, the encounter wasn't made to be won by fighting, all the bard and ranger had to was make a DC 15 strength check to break free, then run. You also forte that part of the reason why it was so hard was one enemy got a triple crit on the paladin. Also, you decided to fight to the death, and while it wasn't easy, you got way more loot. A +1 great sword, +1 longsword, full plate, 2000 GP, and 2000 GP gauntlets that double throw range.

As an advice, never put "non combat encounters". If the players meet something, expect them to fight it or befriend it and use . It shouldn't be something too strong. If the players declare that they want to see the captain of the guard, if there is any possibility that they will fight him, either the guard captain is low enough level or he is out of town/not-available and they can speak with a random officer in their CR. If a player meets a beholder in a cave and it is a non combat encounter, it is very possible to persuade it to attack the nearby village possibly ruining your (the DMs) plans. If a lvl 20 paladin is in a village with corrupt guards, expect the PCs to befriend him and have all the villagers pass from circle of truth etc (true story) (we ruined a main quest that way I think)

If you want the players to avoid combat in favor of RP, tell them that when they bypass an encounter without battle (talking their way out of it, or hiding etc) they will get full exp as if they had fought it, and loot. Give them the loot in the form of awards for completing a quest, or just add it to the next battle (The exp is logical, the loot is to help you as DM with keeping the wealth by level). That way the players will not consider fighting as the best option.

Keep in mind that a fight that looks easy for the DM is hard for the players. You just have to make them feel threatened, not to actually put them in so much danger that TPK is a good possibility.

Also maybe thats not the case, but try not to get the PCs kidnapped too often, maybe once. It gets old fast, everyone hates it

[ericgrau]

A good challenge can be fun. But it sounds more like railroading than a difficulty thing. The enemy has the precise tactics to counter what you guys have, as if they're psychic. Or really they're just using DM knowledge of the party. Then good luck may happen once, but not repeatedly. Your repeated good luck at escaping is probably DM fudging rolls and/or enemy actions so that you don't TPK. In the end he's controlling the whole game and that's boring and dumb.

Anyone the general solution to conflict resolution is sit down and talk to him. Say that you guys want to play a fair game and don't want monsters to use special knowledge of the characters. Say that you also want to die if the party fails, and would rather have lower difficulty but with no way out than to be saved by fudging all the time. Because otherwise your characters aren't really in control of anything. If talking to him fails you can either put up with it and keep playing if it's not too terrible, or threaten to change DMs if it is too terrible. Then if he still won't change what he does, you do change DMs. But passable DMs are hard to find, so you do need to see if it's bad enough to be worth it before you make idle threats against something that isn't totally intolerable.

Lock and key encounters where there is one solution that the PCs are "supposed" to do is only another form of railroading. There's still no player choice. The difference is the PCs don't know the only railroad way out, and so will inevitably pick something different because the PCs aren't psychic. Then they either fail completely or the game grinds to a halt until they finally select the forced choice. A good challenge can and will be beaten by creative things the DM never even thought of.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think we can all agree that railroading is pretty horrible. It's the last resort of a desperate DM.

However, you guys have a kender in your party. He should probably be killed. Maybe your DM is just trying to do the right thing.

[Deophaun]

Secondly, the encounter wasn't made to be won by fighting, all the bard and ranger had to was make a DC 15 strength check to break free, then run.
The problem, in addition to the "you must do "X" to win, or fail" nature of the encounter, is this seems to run against how you've characterized the enemies so far. Enemies are apparently hyper-competent and yet the PCs are somehow going to slip their bonds and run away while tied up and surrounded by hostiles actively watching them? Does not compute, that.

By the way party wizard: get hold of benign transposition.

[AnonymousPepper]

In retrospect it does feel a little bit heavyhanded to bring this here (my intent was not to start an RPG hatefest or anything, not that you guys have, but I would imagine it may feel that way), but yeah.

Also, I'll mention that because this was done over roll20, any "lucky" rolls were definitely not fudged on our part, they were all on our end anyway.

And to the DM's credit, because I confess I completely forgot to mention it, we are higher-power characters - very high point buy, and we've all got an extra feat because of a mishap in properly reading the PHB during character creation. But again, most of us are low-op with it (again, the only high-op is me). The only optimization on the other classes that they might have at all comes from help that myself, the DM, and the bard gave them during creation (new characters and all). The high point buys were because basically by freak luck I rolled stupidly high during creation doing 4d6drop - the main reason I decided to go for a high-op build, actually, just to see what I could make of it - and we decided to buff the rest of the party to match.

Sheets, for reference:
Durf wizard (me) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=756053)
Kender rogue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=685781)
Human ranger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=685775)
Human bard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=742284)
Human pally (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=685873)


And by way of explanation the whole public execution thing ended up coming about because one of the PCs - the ranger himself, in fact - ended up putting in something in his backstory about some hero that killed a very, very powerful dragon and he's been questing after this hero's sword. So the DM took that hero and built a cult after him that's been going full Knights Templar with his legacy and killing everything remotely draconic, with official sanction.


The problem, in addition to the "you must do "X" to win, or fail" nature of the encounter, is this seems to run against how you've characterized the enemies so far. Enemies are apparently hyper-competent and yet the PCs are somehow going to slip their bonds and run away while tied up and surrounded by hostiles actively watching them? Does not compute, that.

By the way party wizard: get hold of benign transposition.

Oh, yeah, I do have it, I can cast it spontaneously actually.

Don't see how it would have helped last night though >_>

[ericgrau]

The problem, in addition to the "you must do "X" to win, or fail" nature of the encounter, is this seems to run against how you've characterized the enemies so far. Enemies are apparently hyper-competent and yet the PCs are somehow going to slip their bonds and run away while tied up and surrounded by hostiles actively watching them? Does not compute, that.

By the way party wizard: get hold of benign transposition.

Not to mention it's normally a DC 24 strength check to break ropes. Somehow the players are supposed to know, by psychic prowess I suppose, the DM went against the rules in many ways and that they must defeat the encounter by exploiting that.

It's a common mistake though resulting from the DM having some kind of story planned out in his head. Don't make encounters with a preset solution made of taffy and everything else made of adamantine. Make encounters where foes of limited power and knowledge in all ways attempt to do something and so the PCs might figure out multiple ways to beat it on their own. Not "there are multiple ways to beat a fight... depending on which unknown one I've currently forced you to guess at". There may be times when one way is naturally better than another, without being DM forced. Picking a less good way still works but results in high cost like a harder fight so then maybe a player dies or nearly dies. Not a TPK.

[WhamBamSam]

My go-to strategy for low level wizardly rescue is Summon Monster+Benign Transposition. I'm assuming you had your standard hour to prepare spells, so Summon Monster II, Web, Alter Self, Benign Transposition x2, Summon Monster I, Expeditious Retreat, is a perfectly reasonable spell loadout for a Transmuter 3 who knows he's going on a rescue mission to pick, assuming you have all the relevant spells in your spellbook.

Step 1: Find a suitable hiding place a little under 100ft away from your captured friends. Be a decent distance back from that hiding place. Have Alter Self (something with a good movement speed) and Expeditious Retreat up and move closer. Have your other party members wait 100ft back from the aforementioned hiding place.
Step 2: Cast Web somewhere which will impede the progress of anyone attempting to reach your hiding space, but also somewhere where it won't be seen immediately. Move to within your movement speed of your hiding place.
Step 3: Cast Summon Monster II for 1d3 Celestial Dogs. Unless you roll badly you'll get at least 2. Direct them to go over to where your party members and wait for your spell to be cast on them. Direct the one that you mean to port in first to defend the second party member to the best of its ability once it's been teleported. The dogs will be present for 3 rounds at this level, more than enough time.
Step 3b: If you only got one dog, use Summon Monster I to get another one. Have it do the same as the first.
Step 4: Move to your hiding place. Cast Benign Transposition to switch your first summoned dog with your first ally. Another party member cuts him free.
Step 5: The guards will probably realize something is up, but they should have a hard time doing anything about it in one round. Use Benign Transposition to switch the second dog with the second captured party member. Your other ally cuts him free, and you all run like hell.

That seems like it should get everyone out of the situation you were describing alive. It does reduce the lower tier characters to Wizard watching though, at least until the rescue burns through all your spells for the day and they have to protect your squishy backside through any other encounters that might come up as the city guard comes looking for you.

Using up all of a perfectly prepared 3rd level Wizard's resources for the day is certainly a very difficult CR3 encounter, and it was probably more than should've been thrown at a low op group, but it seems that should have been doable with relatively little risk.

EDIT: Ninja'd on Benign Transposition be Depohaun.

EDIT 2: It appears you don't have the summons. Ah well, if you dip into the deep end of the alignment pool, an unconscious creature is always willing, so have your rogue friend sap a few commoners to swap out with your buddies.

EDIT 3: Or Alter Self or Expeditious Retreat, though those aren't really necessary. Maybe use Silent Image to cover your retreat.

The rogues capturing you in the first place at what should have been a safe location seems like the bigger problem, especially when there's really nothing stopping the DM from doing the same thing again once you escape and try to hole up somewhere.

So yeah, RPGaddict might need to cool it with some of his encounters, but maybe try meeting him halfway by trying to come up with some of the non-combat solutions he's looking for.

[HaikenEdge]

My go-to strategy for low level wizardly rescue is Summon Monster+Benign Transposition. I'm assuming you had your standard hour to prepare spells, so Summon Monster II, Web, Alter Self, Benign Transposition x2, Summon Monster I, Expeditious Retreat, is a perfectly reasonable spell loadout for a Transmuter 3 who knows he's going on a rescue mission to pick, assuming you have all the relevant spells in your spellbook.

Step 1: Find a suitable hiding place a little under 100ft away from your captured friends. Be a decent distance back from that hiding place. Have Alter Self (something with a good movement speed) and Expeditious Retreat up and move closer. Have your other party members wait 100ft back from the aforementioned hiding place.
Step 2: Cast Web somewhere which will impede the progress of anyone attempting to reach your hiding space, but also somewhere where it won't be seen immediately. Move to within your movement speed of your hiding place.
Step 3: Cast Summon Monster II for 1d3 Celestial Dogs. Unless you roll badly you'll get at least 2. Direct them to go over to where your party members and wait for your spell to be cast on them. Direct the one that you mean to port in first to defend the second party member to the best of its ability once it's been teleported. The dogs will be present for 3 rounds at this level, more than enough time.
Step 3b: If you only got one dog, use Summon Monster I to get another one. Have it do the same as the first.
Step 4: Move to your hiding place. Cast Benign Transposition to switch your first summoned dog with your first ally. Another party member cuts him free.
Step 5: The guards will probably realize something is up, but they should have a hard time doing anything about it in one round. Use Benign Transposition to switch the second dog with the second captured party member. Your other ally cuts him free, and you all run like hell.

That seems like it should get everyone out of the situation you were describing alive. It does reduce the lower tier characters to Wizard watching though, at least until the rescue burns through all your spells for the day and they have to protect your squishy backside through any other encounters that might come up as the city guard comes looking for you.

Using up all of a perfectly prepared 3rd level Wizard's resources for the day is certainly a very difficult CR3 encounter, and it was probably more than should've been thrown at a low op group, but it seems that should have been doable with relatively little risk.

EDIT: Ninja'd on Benign Transposition be Depohaun.

EDIT 2: It appears you don't have the summons. Ah well, if you dip into the deep end of the alignment pool, and unconscious creature is always willing, so have your rogue friend sap a few commoners.

The rogues capturing you in the first place at what should have been a safe location seems like the bigger problem, especially when there's really nothing stopping the DM from doing the same thing again once you escape and try to hole up somewhere.

So yeah, RPGaddict might need to cool it with some of his encounters, but maybe try meeting him halfway by trying to come up with some of the non-combat solutions he's looking for.

That works in theory, but in practice, the Wizard was kidnapped, and it was the Paladin who rolled up on the execution.

[AnonymousPepper]

In that case, I would have prepared better but I got knocked out and kidnapped with everybody else as having been complicit in sheltering the dragonbloods. No time to prepare spells, unfortunately; I was stuck with my loadout from the other day. The only one spared was the Pally - I presume the sneaky-sneaky-stabby-stabby types decided not to risk moving somebody who didn't get KO'd for good from whatever poison they used.

But absolutely that would be the way to go about it.

Instead I was stuck with messing around with my whole spell slot shuffling shenanigans and didn't have much in the way of things to cast of that nature. :vaarsuvius:

In any case, yeah, the the getting captured at a *very* secure location did irk me. Basically all of our money from the last two encounters went into building that place, and it just got run right through like a knife through butter. There were arcane locks on all the personal doors, two guard dogs, and a DC40 lock on the front door. The only thing we didn't have set up yet were some arrow traps that came with the place, but I don't think they would have made a difference.

[WhamBamSam]

That works in theory, but in practice, the Wizard was kidnapped, and it was the Paladin who rolled up on the execution.Ah. I should probably have read more carefully. I thought the people not slated for execution were all free to go about the rescue how they liked. I think it was the fact that the Wizard had spells at all that gave me that impression.

[ericgrau]

Also missing speak with animals, which isn't on the wizard list btw. Or all the summoned monster can do is attack your apparent foes, if any. Probably needs silent spell too. Plus who ever gets summon monster II if he's not a summoner? The solution to DM railroading is not theoretical op railroading. I do like to carry a couple scrolls of summon monster I on my gnome casters though, just in case I get a utility usage, because gnomes get speak with animals 1/day for burrowing mammals and badger fits both lists. I still won't actually learn summon monster I.

[AnonymousPepper]

Ah. I should probably have read more carefully. I thought the people not slated for execution were all free to go about the rescue how they liked. I think it was the fact that the Wizard had spells at all that gave me that impression.

Previous day's spells, which I never used up.


Also missing speak with animals, which isn't on the wizard list btw. Or all the summoned monster can do is attack your apparent foes, if any. Probably needs silent spell too. Plus who ever gets summon monster II if he's not a summoner? The solution to DM railroading is not theoretical op railroading. I do like to carry a couple scrolls of summon monster I on my gnome casters though, just in case I get a utility usage, because gnomes get speak with animals 1/day. I still won't learn the actual spell.

Solution to that would be to just learn to speak Celestial, wouldn't it? Don't celestial summons speak Celestial normally?

[ericgrau]

I couldn't find it in the SRD.

[WhamBamSam]

Also missing speak with animals, which isn't on the wizard list btw. Or all the summoned monster can do is attack your apparent foes, if any. Probably needs silent spell too. Plus who ever gets summon monster II if he's not a summoner? The solution to DM railroading is not theoretical op railroading. I do like to carry a couple scrolls of summon monster I on my gnome casters though, just in case I get a utility usage, because gnomes get speak with animals 1/day. I still won't learn the actual spell.I should do more caster playing in real life. I thought celestial animals spoke some wizard bonus language or other.

I don't know that Silent Spell would be necessary though. Being 100 ft away with a crowded, noisy public execution going on should be enough, shouldn't it?

But yeah, my bad for not reading carefully, assuming things that weren't true, etc.

[AnonymousPepper]

I should do more caster playing in real life. I thought celestial animals spoke some wizard bonus language or other.

I don't know that Silent Spell would be necessary though. Being 100 ft away with a crowded, noisy public execution going on should be enough, shouldn't it?

But yeah, my bad for not reading carefully, assuming things that weren't true, etc.

It probably should be, especially when you combine it with the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick (SoH5 Conc1 SpCr1).

[ericgrau]

It's not so much knowing the rules perfectly as assuming everything will go perfectly to plan. Which only works if you're the railroading DM. As a player it only works in a forum post; in a game it just fails because you don't have everything perfect in your build for X unknown situation. It helps to be the DM, where you make both the situation and a new build from scratch that fits it perfectly. Even if you do get lucky enough to get a match to your overly specific build for one situation, if the DM is railroading you he may make it fail anyway because it's not his preplanned way to win. The true solution is to either sort it out with the DM in real life or put up with it.

[WhamBamSam]

It's not so much knowing the rules perfectly as assuming everything will go perfectly to plan. Which only works if you're the railroading DM. As a player it only works in a forum post; in a game it just fails because you don't have everything perfect in your build for X unknown situation. It helps to be the DM, where you make both the situation and a new build from scratch that fits it perfectly. Even if you do get lucky enough to get a match to your overly specific build for one situation, if the DM is railroading you he may make it fail anyway because it's not his preplanned way to win. The true solution is to either sort it out with the DM in real life or put up with it.I basically agree, but that's really not what I was suggesting at all. I was selecting a 1 day spell loadout for a 3rd level Wizard who knew he was going on a rescue mission. Some of it had issues (honestly, what was I thinking burning two spell slots on summons when I could just use two knocked out commoners), but if the wizard hadn't been kidnapped along with his friends, then some Benign Transposition based plan would probably have worked, even if a few things went awry.

I didn't read the OP carefully enough, and as a result came out thinking that the assertion that fighting was the only option was worth challenging. It seems that wasn't true, and there was some other weirdness concerning the way the DM intended them to solve it, so it is indeed a railroading issue.

The DM said he was going to work on not railroading, but it's also the job of the versatile T1s and high T3s in the party to come up with alternate solutions some of the time.

[Deophaun]

Don't see how it would have helped last night though >_>
Even though you were tied up, do remember that it only has a verbal component, which is true for most teleportation spells.

Also missing speak with animals, which isn't on the wizard list btw. Or all the summoned monster can do is attack your apparent foes, if any.
That would be true if we were talking about summon nature's ally, but Wizards don't get that. Wizards get summon monster, where nothing is a dumb beast because all the dumb beasts got templates that raised their Int to 3, meaning just about everything on the list understands Common.

[ericgrau]

IIRC you need at least int 3 to have human-like intelligence which I suppose you need to speak a language, but getting int 3 doesn't give you a language. Besides the rules never saying that they get one and therefore there's no reason to believe they should, the summon monster text strongly implies that you often cannot communicate with the monster. That would make no sense if they knew common.

If the wizard was tied up he might have some of the right spells prepared. If not, whether a 3rd level wizard has all spells even in his spell book and can pull off the mission without getting caught is still highly unlikely. At level 3 I wouldn't even take summon monster I because for most things except this specific case it's a poor choice that only lasts 3 rounds. Web and benign transposition I can believe. Or better yet ask him what's in his spellbook. Or if you mean for future spell choices... future situations will be different. But benign transposition is a decent suggestion unlike summon monster II. Still doesn't help with the DM.

[AnonymousPepper]

IIRC you need at least int 3 to have human-like intelligence which I suppose you need to speak a language, but getting int 3 doesn't give you a language. Besides the rules never saying that they get one and therefore there's no reason to believe they should, the summon monster text strongly implies that you often cannot communicate with the monster. That would make no sense if they knew common.

If the wizard was tied up he might have some of the right spells prepared. If not, whether a 3rd level wizard has all spells even in his spell book and can pull off the mission without getting caught is still highly unlikely. At level 3 I wouldn't even take summon monster I because for most things except this specific case it's a poor choice that only lasts 3 rounds. Web and benign transposition I can believe. Or better yet ask him what's in his spellbook. Or if you mean for future spell choices... future situations will be different. But benign transposition is a decent suggestion unlike summon monster II. Still doesn't help with the DM.

My entire spell list is on my sheet, actually.


All level zeroes, of course.


Identify
True Strike*
Grease
Benign Transposition*
Mage Armor*
Ray of Enfeeblement*
Shield*
Protection from Evil
Silent Image
Color Spray*
Enlarge Person
Nerveskitter
Cause Fear


Stuff with a * after it means I can sort of spontaneously cast it with Uncanny Forethought.


Chain of Eyes
Web
Scare
Heroics
Arcane Lock

[WhamBamSam]

As I said, I hadn't read properly and didn't realize the position he was in for the attempted escape/rescue. After reading more carefully I agree that there were problems from the DMs end. It was a railroad encounter, and the rails weren't even immediately apparent. The DM said he's going to work on such things in the future, and hopefully that'll end with things being better for everyone.

I even agreed that Summons were wasted spell slots for what I incorrectly assumed to be the job at hand. You're right, they're not particularly worthwhile spells to seek out. If I were to make a recommendation for a good spell to pick up, I'd go with Alter Self because Transmuter, and also because Alter Self. He appears to already have Benign Transpositon, he just didn't have time to prep it like I thought he did, because, again, I didn't read carefully enough.

I'm not sure what we're arguing about at this point.

[AnonymousPepper]

I think it's turned into an advice thread.

Anyway, I actually did have a single casting of BT if I so chose thanks to the wonders of Uncanny Forethought. I could presumably have put a peasant up there in place of the bard and let the Ranger break himself out, since he is STR based. In the event, though, I ended up getting dropped by the Sudden Maximize Lesser Orb of Acid before I got off more than my castings of Web (immobilizing the baddies) and Scare (saving the Kender's ass by scaring away one of the guys trying to take him out).

[Thanatosia]

IIRC you need at least int 3 to have human-like intelligence which I suppose you need to speak a language, but getting int 3 doesn't give you a language. Besides the rules never saying that they get one and therefore there's no reason to believe they should, the summon monster text strongly implies that you often cannot communicate with the monster. That would make no sense if they knew common.

Celestial/Infernal Creatures have Int 3 from the template.

From Page 7 of the MMI

Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned
in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence
bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or
higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted
otherwise).

Because the Celestial/Infernal Template descriptions do not mention anything about languages, the 'common unless noted otherwise' takes effect, so any Celstial/Infernal summoned creatures should be able to understand common.

[RegalKain]

Why would you do this? Since you edit in responses to posts earlier than what you're responding to, I can only assume you're trying to hide your responses from the person you're talking to and don't want that person actually seeing what you're saying.

Why are you even posting if you don't want people to see your responses?

I have 0 idea of what you're talking about? The Edit in question was in response to a reply he gave as I was editing the post the first time, as such instead of just posting again (I don't generally like 1 or 2 line posts.) I edited in a new reply? I don't do the linethrough my words edit like most of GITP does, and unless a Mod does it, I will almost never edit out anything I've said. At best I may put it into a spoiler, I believe in letting people read what I've typed, very sorry but I have no idea what you're accusing me of exactly?

[Rubik]

I have 0 idea of what you're talking about? The Edit in question was in response to a reply he gave as I was editing the post the first time, as such instead of just posting again (I don't generally like 1 or 2 line posts.) I edited in a new reply? I don't do the linethrough my words edit like most of GITP does, and unless a Mod does it, I will almost never edit out anything I've said. At best I may put it into a spoiler, I believe in letting people read what I've typed, very sorry but I have no idea what you're accusing me of exactly?The post responding the the post you added the [edit2] to was AFTER the post you edited in the reply to -- the one which said the paladin's Diplomacy bonus was +10. The fact that you edit in responses to people before the post you're responding to is REALLY irritating, especially to the person to whom you're responding, who never gets to see that edit because they've already read your post and have no reason to go back and check for edited responses.

[Poster 1] Your paladin's check was REALLY low. Only a +4 at level 3? [edit to post 1] Oh! I didn't know he had a +10. Sorry.

[Poster 2] The paladin had a +10 to his check.

Why would Poster 2 go back and check the post he responded to (Poster 1) for the edited-in response to his post?

[ericgrau]

I'm not sure what we're arguing about at this point.
We don't have to be. It can be sunshine and roses too. It does seem like the DM is trying. Hopefully he'll get a lot of ideas. That is a nice spell list already.

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm sorry guys, I didn't mean to start a fight with my editiquitte :smallfrown:

[RegalKain]

The post responding the the post you added the [edit2] to was AFTER the post you edited in the reply to -- the one which said the paladin's Diplomacy bonus was +10. The fact that you edit in responses to people before the post you're responding to is REALLY irritating, especially to the person to whom you're responding, who never gets to see that edit because they've already read your post and have no reason to go back and check for edited responses.

[Poster 1] Your paladin's check was REALLY low. Only a +4 at level 3? [edit to post 1] Oh! I didn't know he had a +10. Sorry.

[Poster 2] The paladin had a +10 to his check.

Why would Poster 2 go back and check the post he responded to (Poster 1) for the edited-in response to his post?

Oh...legit I didn't know it was taboo of any kind here, my apologies. My forums I frequent it's badform to give one or two line responses, so I was trying to avoid it here, I'll make sure to simply respond next time? Uhhh...sorry that I broke some unwritten rule of GITP? I've been a member for a long time, but until recently I haven't posted much to be honest. As a note, I almost always double-read posts, it's why I don't respond to 99% of topics, because I spend a lot of time reading to see what was edited in/out. :(

[Another_Poet]

You didn't, Pepper, you're fine.


The fact that you edit in responses to people before the post you're responding to is REALLY irritating

To you, apparently. But it's a natural enough way to edit, amending the post that contains the error instead of leaving it looking wrong for all of eternity.

Honestly, your original post criticizing Pepper seemed harsh to me, to the point of trolling. Let's not go to war over an edit modus.

[Rubik]

So as not to clutter the thread, I'll just leave this in a spoiler and move on:
You didn't, Pepper, you're fine. Right. Pepper didn't do anything wrong at all. My response was to RegalKain.


To you, apparently. But it's a natural enough way to edit, amending the post that contains the error instead of leaving it looking wrong for all of eternity. The post IS wrong, and it shall remain wrong. Posting after the post you respond to is just common courtesy so the person you're responding to can actually see it, along with everyone else who's already read through the posts to that point.


Honestly, your original post criticizing Pepper seemed harsh to me, to the point of trolling. Let's not go to war over an edit modus.How am I trolling Pepper? My response wasn't even to Pepper. My response was to RegalKain, who was responding to Pepper by responding to Pepper's quote before Pepper's post.

In doing so, he's hiding his posts from the person he's talking to, which is both rude and extremely counterproductive.

[RegalKain]

The post IS wrong, and it shall remain wrong. Posting after the post you respond to is just common courtesy so the person you're responding to can actually see it, along with everyone else who's already read through the posts to that point.

Errr...actually the post is only "wrong" if you don't read the entire post, in which case you're making half-ass assumptions and not attempting to garner all the information you can with each post, that someone posted, the only one who could possibly have it wrong was Pepper, seeing as it was just him and I having the conversation last night, I saw nothing wrong with how I edited my post in the slightest, within a 15 minute timeframe no one else had responded, and both he and I responded to one another's edits. As such I see nothing wrong with how I handled the post, I'm very sorry that this has caused you so much grief and frustration, that was not my intent.


In doing so, he's hiding his posts from the person he's talking to, which is both rude and extremely counterproductive.

I'm not hiding my post in the least, I have nothing to hide, it's quite obvious, especially seeing as the original hadn't been changed, Pepper can attest to that if you really feel he must. You may consider it rude, I consider it rude to bump a post when I only have but a single line to contribute and fix, the reason it's an edit is to ensure people aren't confused as to why the original paragraph was there, again so long as no one reads half the post there is no misleading information, as the Edit fixes the "incorrect" information, the only way someone is confused or misled, is if they don't read all of the posts in a topic before posting, in which case, they are bringing it upon themselves and I really can't help the fact they choose to be ignorant of the facts present before them. However seeing as you are so adamant about this, I'll do what I can in the future to alter how I type and edit my posts, and worry less about bumping and conserving forum/page space.

[TuggyNE]

This would have been better handled through PMs, he said hypocritically.

[maniacalmojo]

So if you have ever played the game stanley parable, you can walk out of the office and choose between taking the door on the left or the right.. or you can just close the door to the office and that leads to a different scenario.

..

Point is there are options that do not seem entirely present. Like the kender could have untied the rope. You could have lulled the guards to sleep. You could have offered a trade, go on a quest instead of having a character slain.

There are like 40+ skills in 3.5 and they all can be used in strange and interesting ways.

Aside from that your DM is inexperienced so they may not have had a "plan" of how you would get out of a situation and just expected you to find a way. Or he could have wanted one of the characters to die for some story reason.

[HaikenEdge]

So if you have ever played the game stanley parable, you can walk out of the office and choose between taking the door on the left or the right.. or you can just close the door to the office and that leads to a different scenario.

..

Point is there are options that do not seem entirely present. Like the kender could have untied the rope. You could have lulled the guards to sleep. You could have offered a trade, go on a quest instead of having a character slain.

There are like 40+ skills in 3.5 and they all can be used in strange and interesting ways.

Aside from that your DM is inexperienced so they may not have had a "plan" of how you would get out of a situation and just expected you to find a way. Or he could have wanted one of the characters to die for some story reason.

The rogue escaping the ropes would have required a opposed Use Rope check, with the opponent getting a +10 bonus, not to mention, it wasn't even said straight up they were bound by rope, so they could have been bound by manacles, in which case you're looking at -2 penalty for trying to do it without proper tools, and likely more penalties for being manacled in the first place, and against people who will Guidance of the Avatar to break through amazing locks, they're likely secured by secure locks themselves, so DC 40, meaning they'd likely not even succeed off a perfect 20 (since skills don't autosucceed on 20s)

Sleep, the spell, requires VSM components, and mundane forms of lulling somebody to sleep is unlikely against guards who are vigilant, seeing as they're at a public execution.

And offering to perform a quest wouldn't have helped, seeing as one of the character's backstories has them set up as the enemy of the cult trying to execute them, so that would have been a no-go anyways. Plus, they tried diplomacy and failed.

I mean, those are good suggestions, but not really helpful to the situation described.

[Yawgmoth]

I did try talking to him today, and I posted his response. His exact words were "Not every fight can be won by stabbing. And not every fight can be won. Period." These are the words of a bad DM. Every fight can and should be solvable through combat. It's how D&D is built. That is the foundation, that is the expectation of both the writers and the content they produce. That's why 99% of the content of the game is NdX damage, save or die/suck at fighting, grant a bonus to combat rolls and/or reduce your opponent's combat efficacy, etc. Even bluff/sense motive/intimidate have combat applications! This is a system born and bred for fighting things. It doesn't need to be the first method chosen, or the only method of success, but it does need to be considered.

But moreover, every encounter should be "winnable". PERIOD. Success and failure should both be options, and both options need to be compelling and enjoyable. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be a DM. Go write the book you obviously want to, and stop inflicting it upon people who want to play characters with agency.

[Rubik]

But moreover, every encounter should be "winnable". PERIOD.Well, except for sandbox games, where the party is clearly warned that they're heading for something out of their league.

Though that clearly didn't happen here.

[Akolbi]

I would like to offer a dissenting opinion, OCCASIONALLY a fight can be unwinnable. the issue only come into play when the fight is unwinnable, and not obviously escapable, for example, i introduced the BBEG who was 5 levels over the party, but i offered a clear escape route before he killed them with his horrendously multiclassed flames.

some peasents were not so lucky. nor was the PC's backstory circus.

[137beth]

I would like to offer a dissenting opinion, OCCASIONALLY a fight can be unwinnable. the issue only come into play when the fight is unwinnable, and not obviously escapable, for example, i introduced the BBEG who was 5 levels over the party, but i offered a clear escape route before he killed them with his horrendously multiclassed flames.

some peasents were not so lucky. nor was the PC's backstory circus.

In a situation like that, though, escaping is a sort of winning:smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

for the purpose of executing two of our party members with dragon blood.

I was getting ready to apologize to you on behalf of the Playground, but upon double-checking it turns out the thread in question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16838237) never really went anywhere. In fact, the only suggestions in it are from me.
<.<
>.>

(Do slap him for me if he takes either of those suggestions, though, they're both way out of encounter level for you. In fact, you can't potion Hide from Dragons in the first place, for some reason I thought its level was 3rd rather than 7th.:smallredface:)