DM troubles

[RingofThorns]

I have been having some problems, I have started trying to step into the role of DM for my small gaming group mostly me and two friends. The problem I have been having though is that they as players just never seem to care about anything, I offer them some chance to get motivated and kind of get going but mostly I wind up having to force them into everything otherwise they would just wind up sitting around in a tavern and never do anything. My question is that is there anyway to get them more excited about going out and doing things in the game instead of just kind of shrugging there shoulders and going along with whatever I have told them they must do.

[RegalKain]

The fastest and easiest solution to this, is sit down with them, ask what their character's motivations are, why they are travelling the world/adventuring in the first place (It has the highest death-rate of any and every profession in the D&D world.) what their characters would like to achieve in their lifetimes/career. If they give no real answer, or just "meh whatever" I dunno what to tell you, because it sounds like they don't want to be invested in their characters at all, in which case run a hack n slash campaign for them and see how they like it?

[Red Fel]

The fastest and easiest solution to this, is sit down with them, ask what their character's motivations are, why they are travelling the world/adventuring in the first place (It has the highest death-rate of any and every profession in the D&D world.) what their characters would like to achieve in their lifetimes/career. If they give no real answer, or just "meh whatever" I dunno what to tell you, because it sounds like they don't want to be invested in their characters at all, in which case run a hack n slash campaign for them and see how they like it?

This. Talk to your players.

It's possible they don't feel engaged by the setting or characters.

It's possible they don't feel their goals as players, or their characters' goals as PCs, are being addressed.

It's possible you've already done something, knowingly or unknowingly, to turn them off of making decisions, such as a certain degree of railroading.

You won't know unless you talk to them.

[RingofThorns]

I have tried talking to them I try asking them after about every game session weather they enjoyed it or not or weather they wanted to give me any kinds of notes about the way I was running it. Normally I get told they enjoyed it and that they dont have much anything to add the only time I railroad is because no one wanted to play the lets sit in the tavern and do nothing game.

[KorbeltheReader]

Would they rather just sit around a table and joke around or maybe play Call of Duty or WoW? Serious question. Maybe it's that they aren't really into tabletop rpgs.

[RingofThorns]

one is a long time pen and paper player he is the guy that used to dm for our sadly small group of players, and the other really likes pen and paper games and when I throw them into some event or another they do seem to enjoy it, but I enjoy the moments between battles as well those times when your suppose to talk to some one or maybe go look for something not just waiting around for me the dm to toss you a new batch of people to fight.

[HaikenEdge]

Why don't you ask them what they want to do? I mean, I've had players who spent time in-game planning a surprise party for one of their NPC friends, because, that was the kind of players (and characters) they were.

[RingofThorns]

Thats a fair enough point but it seems like in a somewhat hurtful way they try to make characters without any real drive or anything so that there not bound to do anything and honestly seem annoyed when we have some one else dm and my character has some plot hook from his back story

[Red Fel]

Thats a fair enough point but it seems like in a somewhat hurtful way they try to make characters without any real drive or anything so that there not bound to do anything and honestly seem annoyed when we have some one else dm and my character has some plot hook from his back story

Basically, talking to your players here doesn't mean "Did you enjoy the game?"

It means you take each one aside, one at a time, outside of the game, and ask several questions. These are the primary two:

1. Tell me about your character. Tell me about his life, his home, his history, his wants and needs.

2. Tell me about your gameplay. I know you like my game, and I appreciate that; but tell me what you want more of, or less of. Combat? Social scenes? Puzzles? Skill checks? I want my game to provide more of what you enjoy.

Any information you get, see if you can push further. For instance, if they say they really enjoy combat, ask them what kind - tactical combat? Mass army vs. army battles? Siege warfare? One-on-one fights with BBEGs? If the character has a lost love somewhere, ask about this person. How did they meet? How did they separate?

Many players may start disengaged from their characters, but when asked to elaborate on a backstory, they may develop a certain level of emotional investment. Similarly, when you learn what style of game really lights up your players, and when you give their characters' stories a chance to shine, you get them more interested in the game.

You suggest that your players get annoyed when you use a "plot hook from [their] back story." Could it be how that hook is being used that bothers them? That is, is the hook being used to say things like "Your mother sent you a letter begging you to come home, so you go home?" Or is it being used for things like, "The villain takes of his mask. Bob, roll a Wis check. Yep, you recognize his face - it's Carl, your old roommate in school." The former feels like railroading; the latter is simply the insertion of backstory into an existing plot. The former can annoy players who would rather be doing something else; the latter makes them stop and say, "Oh, hey, my character is relevant to world events!"

It's also possible that your players genuinely want to play detached itinerant sociopathic murderhobos, with no emotional connection to anyone or anything. Frankly, that would bother the heck out of me, but if it works for them, it works for them. You as DM can either give them what they want in that case, which would likely be a sequence of arena-style combat gauntlets punctuated with rewards, or you can tell them to get real characters with depth. Your call.

[RingofThorns]

you were close I said they get annoyed or seem to the few times we have had a different DM then one of us and the DM will do something like say, I had a character that was a half drow he was trying to get revenge on his drow parent that had sent him to slavery as a child. Well he had never been able to use his in born drow abilities before, then in one session he was pretty much tossed off a cliff and his ability to levitate kicked in saving his life but he couldnt will it to happen after that. The other two guys seemed some what annoyed with it alittle bit. And yes I do try to talk to them about there chars past desires and wants normally its another bout of shoulder shrugging neither one ever really thinking anything out. Hell one guy I all but wrote his back story for him, he wanted to be a dragon shaman I had no idea how to add them into my game world as dragons were not a huge part of it. Well I read the fluff and it said that the first ones were taught by dragons, ok I let him be taught by a dragon well then we started and he talked about having this huge warhammer made out of dragon bone because the blue dragon that had taught him was killed. I asked who killed the dragon, shrug, ok why did they kill them, shrug, ok what brings you to this area of the world? shrug, why are you here looking for the beings responsible if you dont know? because its where yall are at. I just kind of sighed and made up a big orginization called the slayers council that were trying to not only wipe out dragons but the dragon gods as well, they were doing this by using special swords that protected them from being hurt by the breath attacks of whatever color dragon matched that blade. I told the player about it and he acted all excited I told him that was all that he knew and those were the people he was looking for, next session he still acted like his guy was a nine foot tall goliath moron.

[jedipotter]

Ok, so you tried the obligatory ''talk to them''. And, yea, that is great if your gaming with saints and angles. So whatever......


Now you could try some other ways to motivate players:

My number one is greed. It is a great way to get players to suddenly play the game. Now you need real greed, so not like ''25 gold coins'', but more like ''a sword of sharpness +5''. Also don't do the bait and switch of ''if you play good I'll give you a reward in five hours....maybe''. They will likely see through it.

Playing on their emotions is good. Whatever emotions you can use. For example, having an annoying gnome thief bother them.

And you can always just throw adventure at them. This works great.

Players "Way cool, we sit around and pretend to drink''
DM-"The tavern explodes!! You tumble down into arcane fire and land in The Abyss. Several dozen demons attack!

[RingofThorns]

Jedi that is possibly the most evil wicked and more then likely best way to get stuff done, one is greedy and the other cant act like he doesnt know what he is doing if I literaly through it at him. Of course this also enables me to get back at one of them for a stunt they pulled with a goblin rogue targeting me...so yeah awesome sauce

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Honestly, if the players don't care to tell you a backstory, then just drop hooks to them like a maniac.

What level is your party? What is the setting? Are they in a major town etc?

Oh forgot, alignments?

[prufock]

mostly I wind up having to force them into everything otherwise they would just wind up sitting around in a tavern and never do anything.

D&D is about adventure and heroic deeds. If they want to sit around in a tavern, why not ask if they'd rather just go to a bar and get a drink? You know, in real life.

[RingofThorns]

none of us enjoy going to bars that much, and I have asked that if they would prefer to do something else. They said they wanted to play DnD. The games we run can vary some we are at the moment for my DM turn all characters are chaotic neutral, and we are more or less a small task force doing various missions to end a war. After they seemed to loose alll interest in that I set up a different one so they could roll up there new characters and again alignments the same and level is around 4 or 5 I would have to say

[Sir Chuckles]

none of us enjoy going to bars that much, and I have asked that if they would prefer to do something else. They said they wanted to play DnD. The games we run can vary some we are at the moment for my DM turn all characters are chaotic neutral, and we are more or less a small task force doing various missions to end a war. After they seemed to loose alll interest in that I set up a different one so they could roll up there new characters and again alignments the same and level is around 4 or 5 I would have to say

You're going to have to sit down, by yourself, and build an open world. Be it by random town generators, borrowing the map of Skyrim, or doing it yourself, you need to to put them in a world where they are not special.

Once you do that, bandits attack the town/drunk guy demands a bar fight and he turns out to have cartel connections an a serious grudge issue/aliens/anything that can be loosely defined as a campaign.

You cannot build for them, you must build around them.
Find a list of plot hooks and just go down the line, and don't be afraid to kill them. They'll make a new, equally droll Chaotic Neutral do-nothing until you throw the next Noble whose hiring caravan security.

It'll take awhile, but eventually they'll make a character that they're invested in, and then you can start saying that the cultist's pyramid scheme needs to be crashed, or that the army needs you.

[D4rkh0rus]

Is none of your players genuinely interested in back story and depth of character?
What may be happening is that one of your players is interested in playing, and the others are just following along to not let him down.

taking two main factors of derp aside (my outrage and hate of, and the probable frenzied mob of playgrounders with beatsticks...)... Why not try 4ed?

From what I see, your group is either one of the following 3 in my opinion:

1 -> Like i asked above, they're doing it for a friend who is genuinely interested.

2 -> They want an MMO experience, not an actual roleplaying experience.

3 -> They have no imagination whatsoever.

All three are possible, and while not necessarily bad traits, 2 and 3 often conflict with 3.5 ed's system which requires attention and devotion.

That's why I suggested that version which shall not be named once more.
as it focuses on Hack n' slash, while leaving you and the players to "wing" everything else, since there aren't any DCs for stuff outside of combat...

Those are my 2 copper, now off to wash my hands from the foul combinations of 4, e and d. *shudders*


PS: No 4ed Players, books, WotC officials, or anyone related to 4ed was harmed in the writing of this comment.

[Someonelse]

I would suggest a good module.
[slight spoilers]
Red Hand of Doom would be a good one, they are attacked suddenly while walking down the road one day, turns out there is a horde of monsters coming so they can't sit around too long. Don't be afraid to let the horde win if they are lazy about it. This campaign will teach them to be proactive and smart in their adventuring. Or if it doesn't they will live just long enough to see the lands of men razed by monsters. Either way, fun times! :smallbiggrin:

For a more long play campaign I suggest Age of Worms. It comes with a built in backstory for every character, they are all from a tiny mining town out in the middle of nowhere, they get an adventure hook and they can choose to stay in town and remain a first level character for life or they can go find some adventure. Every step of the way requires player motivation (at least in the first chapter), they just get enough information to go on and they must go investigate and only by investigating do they find adventure.

Age of Worms is a 1 through 20 level adventure and I think (I'm not certain) Red Hand of Doom starts at 4th and goes up through 13th level, I think.

[RingofThorns]

Thank you everyone for all your help. I must say that yes maybe my little home grown campaigns arent winning them over as much. I cant really say though its true me and the two guys I play D&D with have been friends for a long time and I have a bad habbit basing it around things I know aka, fairytales of some flavor or another or some version of fantasy lore. I never try to bite directly off anything but I can say at points I do catch myself being some what legend of Zelda esq, i.e save the princess stop the BBEG and the such. and I tried 4 but yeah one almost quit over it because there sheer hatred over 4 and the other didnt understand how some of the new mechanics worked. Just to mention this we dont have table maps or minis or anything like that for the 3.5 that we play, we just have the books and how well everything is described by whoever is DM at the time

[Morphie]

The lack of minis and maps can make the immersion in the game suffer, specially if they aren't creative and proactive players.
Having said that, I think you should get some minis, maps and tokens to change things up a bit. Give them sensory inputs: add music to the game while you depict some scenes, show them a new mini of the BBEG when he appears (it could be just a drawing or a picture you downloaded from the web), this will make them excited to play and always looking forward for the next thing to show up.
Then maybe you should find a pre-made adventure to play, talk to your players while you run it to see what they think about it and then adapt it to their profiles. The game is about having fun and if they spend most of their time just waiting for stuff to happen you might want to make them be the stuff that happens ;)

One other thing that might be the problem is the short number of players, there being only 2 PCs might make things harder on the social aspect of the game. If you're comfortable with it, maybe you should try to get a DMPC to follow them or, even better, get a new friend to join your group, new faces can bring new things to the table. :smallsmile:

[RingofThorns]

I can understand the need for minis and the like and I might look into thankfully I have a break from DM for a while, and actually I always have a char going along with them. Yes a weakness I know but I cant help but have some one to play to. But from this they show no interest in who the third person with them is, which actually there is a funny story involved with that....But anyway yeah we have lots of friends that are gamers of some flavor or another but sadly none of them can seem to get past the social stigma of play D&D, funnily enough of the two I would love to have join the group one writes books and one writes songs both say they cant play saying the have no imagination. Along with that anyone in the Colorado City Texas area please send me a message lol

[prufock]

Do you use Facebook or some other forum that all your players have access to? If so, start a thread with all of them. Make them a group of adventurers for hire, mercenaries, or something similar (let them pick). Then post a list of "jobs" on the thread, which serves as their guild's job board. Have them reply in the thread which job they'd like to take, then plan for that one. As they do jobs, add new ones to the board. If a job sits on the board too long, replace it.

[RingofThorns]

no we normally play every so often and generally here at my place since we all live in the same town/house the online thing never really came up

[Dawgmoah]

no we normally play every so often and generally here at my place since we all live in the same town/house the online thing never really came up

I've used email lists, Yahoo Groups, Google Hangouts, chat sites, etc, etc with my players for years. I try to offset the mundane and routine chatter to those venues so when we get to sit down and play we game more than talk about what should be done or not.

If your stuff isn't cutting it with your friends: find a module or adventure path you think everyone would like and then blend it into your homegrown stuff. Look at all of the plot hooks in the various rulebooks and let your imagination loose. Maybe your friends are bored with the old, "go out and kill a few goblins and go back to the tavern" schtick. Do something outrageous, out of the ordinary. Had a group going once who were running away from a troll. They were running blindly down a corridor in a dungeon under a ruined temple. Popped them out in New York City in a building during a prom. The troll followed them.... One player was hit by a car but had to be told it was a car since I didn't call it a car but described what it would look like to someone from a DND world. Everyone found it amusing and we chalked up that one session as a dream and went back to the standard game after.

Do something out of the ordinary and see how they react.

[Xelbiuj]

Why not just toss them into dungeon crawl after dungeon crawl? Slowly build up NPCs, have some reoccur time to time, and then eventually put them out into the world to enjoy your sandbox?

[RingofThorns]

Thats a good ideal Xel and it might be something I try if or more then likely the next time I run a campaign. And on a side note I have been reading through the site and have come across something I dont seem to understand why is it most DMs and even players on this forum seem to hate choatic nuetral as an alignment and soory if I spelled that wrong.