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stupnick
2007-01-26, 05:36 PM
well i am creating a Hammer of Moradin for a new game i am playing in. i am taking the battlesmith prestigeclass before i go in HoM. so i am taking craft weaponsmith, craft armorsmith, and craft blacksmithing, i am looking at a background of the town blacksmith that goes out of adventures leaving his workers to run his shop. we are going to be level 10 or 11, and i am looking at cleric4, Dwarven Paragon3, Battlesmith1, HoM2 or 3.

so i guess i am asking for help with designing his shop. how much would a storefront cost in the avg town? how much would it make per week? how much would upkeep be?

also how would you best optimize his BS skills??

Thank you in Advance for any replies, and i will check back and answer/reply to posts as often as i can

InaVegt
2007-01-26, 05:54 PM
Check out the DMG 2, it holds all the rules you need for a business.

stupnick
2007-01-26, 05:56 PM
Bah!! the one book i don't own

Khantalas
2007-01-26, 05:56 PM
So... you sell blacksmiths? That's what I gather from the title (note that English is not, never has been, and never will be my native language).

My advice to you (or your DM) is, if you can't think of any rules yourselves, get DMG II. It has some easy rules about running a business.

And optimizing his Craft skills is simple. Get maximum ranks in those skills. I have no idea what else to do.

BAH! I get semi-simu-ninja'ed. Hey, I said more.

JaronK
2007-01-26, 05:57 PM
Just get some salesmen... you can hire them. Stronghold Builder's Guide has some nice rules for the cost of hiring workers, as well as more exact costs if you want to build a specific sort of shop (including magical enhancements to the shop).

JaronK

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 06:42 PM
Fancy Armoury (2,000 gp) - artistically-decorated area for storing lots of equipment on racks and shelves. Holds 25 soldiers' worth of armour and weaponry.
Fancy Smithy (2,000 gp) - High-quality stone smithy with excellent tools, giving +2 on all Craft: Armourer, Weaponsmith and Blacksmith rolls. Needs an Exp 1 to help out (12 gp monthly wage).
Fancy Storage (1,000 gp) - 3,000 cubic feet of storage in a tidy room full of shelves and boxes.
Fancy Shop (4,000 gp) - Nicely-decorated store with pleasant surroundings and two assistants to help out customers (Exp1, 12 gp monthly wage each).
Fancy Study (2,500 gp) - For doing the accounts and other paperwork in, it's a high-quality study to relax and work in. Optional accountant (Exp 1, 12 gp monthly wage) for people more interested in the smithing.
11,500 gp and 5 stronghold spaces for the rooms, with three-foot thick stone walls, on the ground floor only (extra 30,000 gp).

Add up to 10%, depending on the size of the settlement it's in, and another 10% to account for it being a money-spinner, and your grand total should be about 50,000 gp for your high-quality all-inclusive smithy, which pays for its own upkeep and generates about 500 gp profit a year.

(You can of course include a first floor to eat and sleep in, but that starts increasing the price rapidly!)

stupnick
2007-01-26, 07:09 PM
Caelestion awesome post.. thank you so much

but that seems WAY to high, so in order to break even it would take 100 years? that's a long time in debt for such a prospective business.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 07:18 PM
Well, that's all quality furnishings in a big city with good thick stone walls. That profit margin is what takes place even when you're not there. If you are, you can make your weekly Craft checks and bump up the profit that way. (Incidentally, the profit is always 1%, so it will always take 100 years to pay off by itself.)
If you want to reduce your costs dramatically, downgrade to reinforced (or even merely superior) masonry. Reinforced masonry drops the base cost by 7,500 gp and superior masonry drops the base cost by 15,000 gp (total costs: up to 41,000 gp and 32,000 gp). Of course, that also drops the profit to 410 gp and 320 gp per year.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-26, 08:13 PM
Wait, so if you buy a really nice chair, your profit jumps up to compensate?

jjpickar
2007-01-26, 08:21 PM
Hey Caelestion you forgot something:

Having the most pimped out Blacksmith shop in town. (Priceless)

For everything else, there's platinum pieces.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 08:24 PM
I forgot the obvious Mastercard gag. Thanks JJPickar :)

And yes, Mewtarthio. The profit is done on a straight 1% annual rate of the entire purchase (including the 10% price hike for profitability).

Athenodorus
2007-01-26, 09:00 PM
Wow, I havn't seen the RAW personally, but I have to confess 1% profit seems like it would really hurt investment in a society of humans. Maybe less so for a more long-lived species, but still.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 09:07 PM
That's why he ought to rent the space instead, and pay it off slowly :)

mikeejimbo
2007-01-26, 09:11 PM
I forgot the obvious Mastercard gag. Thanks JJPickar :)

And yes, Mewtarthio. The profit is done on a straight 1% annual rate of the entire purchase (including the 10% price hike for profitability).

OK, here's my plan in that case: Purchase a large, platinum statue of myself. Solid platinum, worth maybe 500,000 gold pieces. Place it in the middle of my shop, and I'll earn 5,000 gp a year profit. After, say, 5 years, I can melt down my statue and have the equivalent of 525,000 gold.

JaronK
2007-01-26, 09:13 PM
1% Profit is if you just leave the buisiness to run itself. If you go in and work too, you can actually do well.

JaronK

mikeejimbo
2007-01-26, 09:17 PM
But who wants to do that, when they can adventure?

And theoretically, shouldn't hiring someone with decent crafting skills increase that too?

Of course, I'd probably earn more adventuring anyway...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 09:30 PM
Grab the leadership feat, stock the place with experts armed with as high of crafting skills as possible, and then let them work at minimum wage.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-26, 09:46 PM
But apparently, that doesn't matter. RAW, it doesn't do anything.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-26, 09:48 PM
And here I thought I found a use for followers outside of "Make the dragon exhausted from eating".

mikeejimbo
2007-01-26, 09:52 PM
Oh, there's plenty of use for minions. You should go to the Silly Message Board Game about how you can sacrifice them to solve any problem. But that's a bit off topic.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-26, 10:06 PM
L1 smiths, equipped with MW tools, paid 2 sp a day, make 150 sp (incl item base cost) each, per week, or 210 SP profit, so 30 weeks before tools are paid off.

Or, with no tools at all, make 100 sp/week. Each.

Matthew
2007-01-27, 07:46 AM
It is always worth remembering that Dungeons & Dragons Economics habitually make no sense. (75 GP for a Long Bow, but 15 GP for a Long Sword? 1 GP for a Quiver of Twenty Arrows? A flat +300 GP for Master Work Weapons?)

An alternative method to calculate building costs can be found in A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=711). The profitability of the business is not directly linked to the initial outlay or incumbant overheads, but left up to the Dungeon Master, basic guidelines and common sense.

hewhosaysfish
2007-01-27, 09:29 AM
Fancy Armoury (2,000 gp) - artistically-decorated area for storing lots of equipment on racks and shelves. Holds 25 soldiers' worth of armour and weaponry.
Fancy Smithy (2,000 gp) - High-quality stone smithy with excellent tools, giving +2 on all Craft: Armourer, Weaponsmith and Blacksmith rolls. Needs an Exp 1 to help out (12 gp monthly wage).
Fancy Storage (1,000 gp) - 3,000 cubic feet of storage in a tidy room full of shelves and boxes.
Fancy Shop (4,000 gp) - Nicely-decorated store with pleasant surroundings and two assistants to help out customers (Exp1, 12 gp monthly wage each).
Fancy Study (2,500 gp) - For doing the accounts and other paperwork in, it's a high-quality study to relax and work in. Optional accountant (Exp 1, 12 gp monthly wage) for people more interested in the smithing.
11,500 gp and 5 stronghold spaces for the rooms, with three-foot thick stone walls, on the ground floor only (extra 30,000 gp).
...
(You can of course include a first floor to eat and sleep in, but that starts increasing the price rapidly!)


Bah! 50,00gp for a building?!

Lyre of building: 13,000 gp
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#lyreofBuilding

A bard who is good enought to get gigs on other planes: max 18 gp/day
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm

Assuming your bard pulls an eight hour working day, that's the equivalent to the work of 100 labourers for 48 days.
Hire him for a week and you've duplicated nearly a years work (for those 100 men).


3 sets of master-work tools (blacksmith, weaponsmith, armoursmith): 165 gp


Total: 13,291 gp

That's 36,709 gp left from your budget to spend on decorating and furniture.

Caelestion
2007-01-27, 09:44 AM
That 50,000 gp includes solid stone walls and nice furniture as well, you know. I just stated the safest and most effective option I thought of. Being efficient with your money is up to the builder!

stupnick
2007-01-27, 10:47 AM
alright i do thank you for all this information.

now with the 50,000 building, and the 500g profit a year. now if i hire blacksmiths or take the leadership feat and get some blacksmiths that work it all year long. how much would the avg one make?

[/quote]
Arbitrarity:
L1 smiths, equipped with MW tools, paid 2 sp a day, make 150 sp (incl item base cost) each, per week, or 210 SP profit, so 30 weeks before tools are paid off.

Or, with no tools at all, make 100 sp/week. Each. [quote]

now if i am looking at level 5, or 6 smiths? how much does the profit go up with each level?

i do really thank you so much for this information

stupnick
2007-01-27, 10:48 AM
also i went and got the DMG2, and i found the "shops" section but that doesn't have the cost equiated with it.??

where are you finding those costs for the shops, and items?

kingdom
2007-01-27, 12:46 PM
what is the game ur talkin about and can i have a link?

stupnick
2007-01-27, 01:02 PM
DnD 3.5, and it's not a play by post game. i am designing a character to have some background. i want him to be well known in the city for reason listed

OzymandiasVolt
2007-01-27, 05:34 PM
The problem with the Stronghold Builder's Guide is that their profit formulas are horrible and absolutely unrealistic. It's great for making the stronghold, but don't use it for calculating profits.

Arbitrarity
2007-01-27, 06:30 PM
Those guys are L1. Experts, have craft: Blacksmithing (or weaponsmithing, w/e).

Max ranks, 4, taking 10, no tools, so 12. They can make daggers all day long, or any simple weapon. With 2 levels, and MW tools, they can make exotic weapons.

12x12 (dc for simple) = 144, -1/3, or about 100. Their craft check is thus enough to make 10 gp of items each per week.

Be warned, such math may not win favor with your DM ;).

Mewtarthio
2007-01-27, 10:39 PM
Bah. Just use the Profession skill check rules. Much simpler. You earn, on average, 7.25 gp each week at first level (assuming Profession is maxed out).