Unusual pathfinder question

[Tegu8788]

So, a friend of mine is going to be running a pathfinder game, and as I got my start in 4e, I don't know what I'm doing. I know what you are thinking, and I'm not looking for build advice, but I thought I'd ask the guys I know and trust to give me the opposite of our regular advice when we port people over to us.

Going from 4E to pathfinder, what should I expect to find different, and how should I alter my expectations?

[Gavran]

Title looks like wrong forum. Author doesn't. :P

I'm sure the 3.5/P converts can give you some good answers, but I found this when I was trying to educate myself about it.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/16504/what-are-the-major-differences-between-pathfinder-and-dd-4e

I think there's a lot of stuff you're going to be assumed you should know (unless your friends are new to the system too), but also that it's a bit closer to 4E than 3.5, at least in terms of trying to be balanced?

[Rhaegar14]

As someone who loves both systems, I feel qualified to give input on this lol. I'll start with the cons:

1) Pathfinder has horrible balance issues between classes. Wizards reshape reality, Fighters hit things, and this is a problem that extends outside the flavor of powers in Pathfinder.

2) Most people find mundane (Martial, to use the 4e term) characters to be quite boring because many of them end up doing exactly the same thing over and over, much like a 4e Ranger uses Twin Strike over and over.

3) Without universal systems like utility powers, a lot of character types struggle to make themselves useful outside of combat. The most common characters that have problems with this are Fighters, Paladins, and similar classes with limited skill points and no (or very few) non-combat class features.

4) Pathfinder is much more complicated from a rules perspective than 4e. There's a reason I try to refrain from teaching people who have never played a tabletop RPG 3.5/Pathfinder as opposed to 4e.

5) Partially as a result of 4, it's a lot easier to make a character that is totally useless in Pathfinder.

And now the Pros:

1) The way multiclassing and character development works in Pathfinder is much more versatile. This leads to more freedom in character builds. Even more so than in 4e, if you give me a character idea I can find a way to stat it in Pathfinder, and I can even guarantee you that it will be effective if I'm allowed to draw on 3.5 content.

2) Various character types feel more different than they do in 4e (not to say that a 4e Fighter does not feel different from a 4e Wizard), because magic works on a completely different system than mundane combat.

3) While this is part of the balance issue, spellcasters have large spell lists and are capable of a lot of interesting things that they cannot do in 4e. For example, detailed, freeform illusions and most polymorph effects.

And lastly, the things that aren't strictly good or bad:

1) Combat is a lot faster and a lot more lethal in Pathfinder.

2) Pathfinder is, in general, more simulationist in its approach than 4e.

[MunkeeGamer]

As someone who was born into 3.0, then 3.5, then pathfinder-- I can confirm what Rhaegar says is true.

To add to it though, you need to be very clear with your DM what the tone and point of the campaign is going to be. Is it storytelling and dramatic action? Is it number crunching and rules lawyering? These two playstyles of Pathfinder are wildly different in their execution and experience.

If it is primarily storytelling, you need to be aware of the dangers of subjective interpretation and prepare accordingly. Don't be mad if the DM fudges some dice rolls to make an event more dramatic. Make sure everyone is on the same page and everything will be fine. If people start having conflicting interests, it will ruin the fun and eventually the campaign.

On the other hand, if it's going to be solid rules and hard numbers, then take a lesson from 4th ed and create some note cards with relevant rules and power/feats/spells. I've had a single combat last hours just from searching through countless expansion books looking for the range or duration of an obscure spell. If I ever go back to Pathfinder, I'll never let anyone use a spell they don't have the rules for right in front of them, it just takes too long.

Once you get that established the next thing to prepare for is the endless ocean of spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Eventually, casters and magical beings have no end to what they can do, assuming they have the right spells. Yet again, it will be important to be very involved with your DM and the rest of your party on what limits you plan on imposing on yourselves. Without limits, you'll become gods pretty quickly and might lose value in your adventures. On the other hand, it might be your objective to become gods. Either way, make sure everyone knows the goal or else the discrepancy in power between two equal level characters can become immense.

Finally, it's going to feel very different from 4e even if it uses a lot of similar vocabulary. The difference in Pathfinder and 4e can be very polarizing, so if you find that you don't enjoy it, don't force it. Give it a fair chance but don't feel obligated to accept it just because it's so popular or whatever. You'll probably be experiencing the difference between simulationist and gamist RPGs.

[Tegu8788]

I should respond with more info so advice can me more targeted. Thank you guys, for helping me see what information is useful.

The world is early steampunk, a bunch of islands, with no magic items or spells. The only supernatural stuff is primal, so Druids and rangers. We are starting at level 6, point buy 25. 3rd party classes are allowed, and I'm certain there will be at least one gunslinger. I'm planning to be a Druid, because I love being able to cast spells, so I'm likely to be the only caster in a group of martial classes. One player has shown interest in a deductionist.

In terms of goals, I don't know what the plan is, probably take over the world. If I know the DM and his brother, there will be rules lawyering, but both are also strong role players, so I'm hoping it won't last too long. We are playing on roll20, for what it's worth.

[RealCheese]

As a druid, when you reach shapeshifting levels, do yourself a favor and look up stats of a few animals you will want to use before hand. Know that shapeshifting is a hassle but if used correctly is totally overpowered and very fun.

[Yakk]

Glancing at the Pathfinder list, start with an Ape companion. It isn't the best level 1 companion (but is close) however at level 4 it becomes large and has 22 strength/15 con/15 dex and 3 primary natural attacks, which blows every other (barring the level 7 big cat) companion out of the water. Bump int (to reach int 3) at level 4 as well.

Here is a thread with the best 2 druid spells for each level and discussion about what competes:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222256

I'd be tempted to grab at least 2 buffs for your level 0 spells, and keep them up on yourself, your companion, and a few party members (you can cast them constantly).

Traditionally, you have 2 class features that are "as good as other classes" -- your animal companion and your wild shape ability. Quite possibly they aren't as good in Pathfinder, but they are not really that bad.

There is a much longer list, and other animal companions might be pretty good.

[RealCheese]

I was just reading the wild shape ability and an Important distinction between pf and 3.5 wild shape is that in pf there is no HD limit on your shape, only creature size limits you. This strikes me as very exploitable but granted I don't know the pf animal stats very well.