Opponent Spell Power (3.5)

[LogosDragon]

I've just started running a campaign that is, in effect, based on the concept of hopelessness (like most horror campaigns, except, well, not scary). Basically, the PCs are in a sort of ravaged world in the middle of an apocalypse, and there's this huge four-way war going on in the Material Plane between Demons, Devils, Good Outsiders, and dragons. Oh, and the pathetic little peons of every other race struggling to survive. And pretty much any of the creatures who are part of the big four powers have been significantly boosted way beyond the power of their MM entries.

(Before anybody complains about the fact that I'm running a game on such a premise, I will point out that it was expressly requested by the players.)

Despite the general incredible power of the creatures involved in this war and the fact that said war will not be magically detached from the players until they're strong enough to partake (that would kind of defeat the point, wouldn't it?), everything on both my side and the player's side is actually, at least by the standards of the Playground, sickeningly low-op. Like, the kind of game that the people who playtested 3.5 would consider altogether balanced. WotC-op, as some here have taken to calling it.

But anyway, yeah. This thread actually has very little to do with any of those super-powerful monsters involved in the war right now. What I'm wondering is how to make the encounters against things that are also trying to survive in the wake of the war adequately spirit-breaking while, in terms of things like CR and the technical ability for the party to fight them, they aren't actual over the top.

In respect of this, I come to you guys with one simple request, which I felt the need to prelude with my long and tedious explanation: without using any cheese that would make them unbeatable to the party, and while keeping the CR equivalent to the party, what are some ways to give the enemies higher-level spellcasting than the party? (any class's spellcasting will do, though the four 9th-level spells classes from the PHB are the most useful to me)

At the moment, the players are ECL 7, but I will need tricks I can use throughout the campaign (which, unless they decide they're satisfied not getting directly involved in the war, should extend into the Epic levels; of course, they'll be fighting the tough guys then, so I don't need any help with that part). What should I do to increase the spellcasting power of their opponents while keeping them realistic (if not reasonable) challenges?

[Qwertystop]

I'm sure there's some members of all factions that look more impressive than they are. You could use some of those fleeing something?

[LogosDragon]

I'm sure there's some members of all factions that look more impressive than they are. You could use some of those fleeing something?

This post doesn't make a lot of sense. Could you try rephrasing that or elaborating on it?

[Irk]

You could always use hatchling Phaerimm.

[Kazyan]

There are a few monsters that have low CR for their spellcasting ability.

Sylphs are CR 5 and cast as 7th-level Sorcerers, and if you advance HD, their spellcasting advances likewise--so you're getting 2 levels of casting per 1 CR increase. And they can summon a Large elemental once per day, so that's a thing.

Immoths are CR 9 and cast as 12th level sorcerers.

Alternatively, if you find a monster that is just a big dumb pile of HD and has a very low CR--as in, the ratio of HD:CR is significatly greater than 2--give them non-associated class levels of spellcasting classes.

[Valtu]

I'm not experienced enough to probably say how you'd get that powerful spellcasting while keeping things balanced, but in the spirit of hopelessness, even if the encounters aren't exceedingly challenging, you can use descriptive/roleplay elements to drive the point home.

For instance, the party could come across a band of marauders in the midst of some horrible atrocity, or after an encounter, you could find evidence of the enemies' motivations when you're looting them: some indication that they weren't always bad people or even people opposed to your cause, but began stealing out of desperation, and then a slippery slope from there.

Anyway, I think the premise is interesting. Sort of sounds similar in tone to the Demon's/Dark Souls games. Bleak stuff haha :P

[LogosDragon]

There are a few monsters that have low CR for their spellcasting ability.

Sylphs are CR 5 and cast as 7th-level Sorcerers, and if you advance HD, their spellcasting advances likewise--so you're getting 2 levels of casting per 1 CR increase. And they can summon a Large elemental once per day, so that's a thing.

Immoths are CR 9 and cast as 12th level sorcerers.

Alternatively, if you find a monster that is just a big dumb pile of HD and has a very low CR--as in, the ratio of HD:CR is significatly greater than 2--give them non-associated class levels of spellcasting classes.

Oooh. I like all the ideas you listed, though the last one might be stretching a little bit. But still, right on! Thanks a bunch. A bit weird to have other Outsiders at all prevalent with the war going on, but that's something I can develop an explanation or even entire plot for if need be, so it's good to have those ideas in my head.


I'm not experienced enough to probably say how you'd get that powerful spellcasting while keeping things balanced, but in the spirit of hopelessness, even if the encounters aren't exceedingly challenging, you can use descriptive/roleplay elements to drive the point home.

For instance, the party could come across a band of marauders in the midst of some horrible atrocity, or after an encounter, you could find evidence of the enemies' motivations when you're looting them: some indication that they weren't always bad people or even people opposed to your cause, but began stealing out of desperation, and then a slippery slope from there.

Anyway, I think the premise is interesting. Sort of sounds similar in tone to the Demon's/Dark Souls games. Bleak stuff haha :P

Thanks! I haven't run a game like this before, but it seems like it's going to be a good amount of fun for everyone as long as I don't screw up majorly anywhere.

And yeah, that seems like a good way to start bringing their morals to question and incite some emotional responses. I can't do it too often though for fear of them not wanting to kill anything... Yet at the same time, it's a pretty good opportunity to get some kind of resistance group collecting under them. Then I have another thing of theirs to crush while they watch helplessly.

[Valtu]

I can't do it too often though for fear of them not wanting to kill anything... Yet at the same time, it's a pretty good opportunity to get some kind of resistance group collecting under them. Then I have another thing of theirs to crush while they watch helplessly.

Haha yes, although you don't even necessarily have to make them empathize with all of their enemies, that was a one-off suggestion. They could also just encounter something bad enough that the very idea of what people will succumb to in a time of crisis is sufficient to leave them shaken. That's probably a bit intense, lol, especially coming from someone in their first campaign, which is a very lighthearted one for the most part.

Cormac McCarthy's The Road has some good examples of this. Or even some scenarios from Walking Dead or the Fallout series of games.

[Qwertystop]

This post doesn't make a lot of sense. Could you try rephrasing that or elaborating on it?

Sorry:
There are probably demons and devils and Good Outsiders and dragons that look a lot more impressive than they should compared to their ability to fight the PCs. Gives the same sort of hopeless feeling through a different route than high-level spells, at least assuming there's nobody in the party with Knowledge high enough to know it.

Also, background events such as a powerful (or powerful-looking) monster fleeing in the distance or something.

[OldTrees1]

Planetars cast as 17th level casters when only CR 16. So you can have a party of 13th level PCs facing a single Planetar for a 2 spell levels difference.

There should be similar creatures for lower CRs.

[BrokenChord]

Sorry:
There are probably demons and devils and Good Outsiders and dragons that look a lot more impressive than they should compared to their ability to fight the PCs. Gives the same sort of hopeless feeling through a different route than high-level spells, at least assuming there's nobody in the party with Knowledge high enough to know it.

Also, background events such as a powerful (or powerful-looking) monster fleeing in the distance or something.

Pretty sure the OP already said she has the big guys figured out, and she's working on other encounters not related to those powerful figures.

Anyway, to contribute to the topic, as mentioned before, non-associated levels in classes work really well for this. Hilariously, Ixitxachitl are by fluff assumed to have some Clerics amongst them. Though their favored class is Cleric anyway, so that probably isn't non-associated, but having a CR+2 fight isn't unreasonable, and it'll have a higher caster level than the party Cleric, if that helps at all.