Going to Level 20 with a single class

[Irk]

What classes do you really like, but still would not take all 20 levels? personally, I am a big fan of ranger and hexblade, though I wouldn't really like to go ranger 20 or hexblade 20. I ask this because I want to see if I could optimize some of these classes to the point where one would WANT to play them all the way up to level 20. For example, Paladin 20 is a fairly uncommon build, but it can be made awesome, as seen by Stormwind's A-game paladin. (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376)

[Invader]

I'd say generally most of the mundane classes are lackluster over 20 levels.

[LogosDragon]

I'd say generally most of the mundane classes are lackluster over 20 levels.

Exception being the Warblade, which has a capstone commonly regarded as "sexy".

On-topic, aside from aforementioned Warblade and Druid, there are actually very few classes where it's considered a good idea to take all 20 levels, if only due to the existence of Prestige Classes.

[Kaje]

I love fiddling with multiclassing and dips. I think I would have a hard time going to 20 in any one class. Sounds so dull to me. I guess I could maybe with Warblade or Crusader or Binder.

[OldTrees1]

Casters prestige class out without losing much of anything.

Warriors jump from class to class to get the class features they need.

Skillmonkies seem like the most likely to reach 20 in their base class but even then there are tempting "must take" prestige classes like Umbral Disciple or Exemplar.

That eliminates every class except the Artificer (which I have no knowledge of so it might also jump out before 20)

[LogosDragon]

Casters prestige class out without losing much of anything.

Warriors jump from class to class to get the class features they need.

Skillmonkies seem like the most likely to reach 20 in their base class but even then there are tempting "must take" prestige classes like Umbral Disciple or Exemplar.

That eliminates every class except the Artificer (which I have no knowledge of so it might also jump out before 20)

Depends on your definition of "caster". There are very few good Psionic PrCs, and Druids almost never PrC because they're always losing progression of some kind. In terms of warriors, Warblades and Crusaders get a lot out of staying single-classed. And actually, skill-monkeys do a lot of other Prestige Classing than just those "must-haves" too. Artificer tends not to PrC out very often, but it does so no less than an StP Erudite might.

EDIT: Also, I don't think Dragonfire Adepts have much reason not to single-class either... Hm. That's an interesting thought.

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief is good if you commit for all 20 levels. Immediate Absorb Spell can be amazing. You definitely have to know what you're doing to make spellthief functional, but it's doable (especially in a mostly-caster party).

I'd also commit for knight: the upper levels of knight are pretty cool, evn if it takes a lot of work to make the rest of the class functional.

[Phelix-Mu]

It really depends on the expectations of the players. A friend of mine played a Warlock from 1-20 over a multi-year campaign and had a real blast (pun intended). Mechanically, the class appears to lack oomph, but the game we were playing was fairly low-op, and my friend really liked the idea of being able to blow stuff up all day whenever he wanted.

Generally, magic classes (or those with similar subsystems) age much better than mundane classes. The depth of support material out there for the Tier 1 and 2 casters is huge, and can add zest to even level 18 of sorcerer.

Finally, there are bunches of tricks available at every new level of spells for casters.

A special nod to psions, as well. Psion has great modularity, and psionics supports a whole host of tricks that can keep it interesting from low op to high op games.

[Ionbound]

Dread Necro 20 is pretty sexy, as most PrCs don't advance class features, and that's his bread and butter. Plus that capstone...Free(ish) Lichdom is nothing to be sneezed at.

[Curmudgeon]

There's no reason at all to take Rogue 20:

The last sneak attack boost is at Rogue 19.
The last Special Ability choice is at Rogue 19.
Rogue 20 has no Special features.
At Epic levels, the Rogue gets their Special Ability options even less frequently. That is, they're available at Rogue 10, 13, 16, 19 ... and then not again until 24, then 28, 32 ....

For all practical purposes, Rogue is a 19 level class.

[Invader]

One of the worst is rogue though as it gives you nothing at 20.

Aaaaaand swordsage'd :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

Depends on your definition of "caster". There are very few good Psionic PrCs, and Druids almost never PrC because they're always losing progression of some kind. In terms of warriors, Warblades and Crusaders get a lot out of staying single-classed. And actually, skill-monkeys do a lot of other Prestige Classing than just those "must-haves" too. Artificer tends not to PrC out very often, but it does so no less than an StP Erudite might.

EDIT: Also, I don't think Dragonfire Adepts have much reason not to single-class either... Hm. That's an interesting thought.

I thought there was a Druid PrC that advanced most of the class features with no loss of spellcasting.

Good point on Psionics. I had forgotten that Psionic Prcs were terrible.

Your perspective on ToB classes differs from my own. There are plenty of class features on other classes (Pounce and Mighty Swing as examples) that I would like in my ToB builds. With ToB being so multiclass friendly...

Why wouldn't Dragonfire Adepts PrC out to gain more versatility? I would expect they to be even more eager to jump ship than Warlocks.

[Kaje]

I thought there was a Druid PrC that advanced most of the class features with no loss of spellcasting.

Good point on Psionics. I had forgotten that Psionic Prcs were terrible.

Your perspective on ToB classes differs from my own. There are plenty of class features on other classes (Pounce and Mighty Swing as examples) that I would like in my ToB builds. With ToB being so multiclass friendly...

Why wouldn't Dragonfire Adepts PrC out to gain more versatility? I would expect they to be even more eager to jump ship than Warlocks.

Because DFA breath effects aren't progressed by any PrCs, unlike Warlock blast augmentations, which are just part of the invocation track.

[OldTrees1]

Because DFA breath effects aren't progressed by any PrCs, unlike Warlock blast augmentations, which are just part of the invocation track.

O.O
Um. That's silly. Not only is it a weaker Warlock but it can't use prestige classes? At least it is not as bad as Truenamer.

[Invader]

Because DFA breath effects aren't end of ogressed by any PrCs, unlike Warlock blast augmentations, which are just part of the invocation track.

It's a shame because I like DFA but it's in definite need of some prestige love because as it stands it becomes increasing boring to play.

[Kaje]

Erm, the DFA is often considered a tier 3 to the Warlock's tier 4.

[Phelix-Mu]

Because DFA breath effects aren't progressed by any PrCs, unlike Warlock blast augmentations, which are just part of the invocation track.

Frankly a terrible oversight on the part of the designers. I would have thought they would look at warlock and just copy a lot of the setup for DFA, but the dual system of breath effects and draconic invocations makes little sense (aside from the mechanic about how often certain breath effects can be repeated).

[OldTrees1]

Erm, the DFA is often considered a tier 3 to the Warlock's tier 4.

Thanks for the info. Now I need to go find out why.

[LogosDragon]

O.O
Um. That's silly. Not only is it a weaker Warlock but it can't use prestige classes? At least it is not as bad as Truenamer.

Speaking of which, anybody got any good Truenamer PrCs? XD

And as for Druids, they technically have exactly two "good" Prestige Classes, but one still doesn't advance Animal Companion and so is only questionably in the good category, and the other one is, well, Planar Shepherd. Which is, in 9/10 games, strictly in the way-too-OP-to-use category, so it's almost worth discounting as a Prestige Class. I mean, nobody is going to argue that Fighters would never go 20 on account of, say, Ur-Priest existing. There are lots of reasons not to go Fighter 20, but using that as one of them is impractical to the discussion :P.

[geekintheground]

I thought there was a Druid PrC that advanced most of the class features with no loss of spellcasting.


there is, but i dont think it sees play in any but the highest op games because its so good. the name is planar shepherd it advances everything (wild shape, companion and casting) gives you some outsider forms and lets you use any ability that form has.

[OldTrees1]

Speaking of which, anybody got any good Truenamer PrCs? XD

And as for Druids, they technically have exactly two "good" Prestige Classes, but one still doesn't advance Animal Companion and so is only questionably in the good category, and the other one is, well, Planar Shepherd. Which is, in 9/10 games, strictly in the way-too-OP-to-use category, so it's almost worth discounting as a Prestige Class. I mean, nobody is going to argue that Fighters would never go 20 on account of, say, Ur-Priest existing. There are lots of reasons not to go Fighter 20, but using that as one of them is impractical to the discussion :P.

1) I would have expected DMs to allow Planar Shepard but veto any OP planes. (least intrusive ban = best ban)

2) An Ur-Priest is not the same kind of character as a Fighter so I would not consider it a valid argument against Fighter 20. I do not think your Druid < Planar Shepard <-> Fighter < Ur Priest analogy holds well enough for your conclusion.

[Phelix-Mu]

The simple truth is that core druid is a powerhouse at pretty much every level, and only loses out slightly to wizards, and possibly clerics, due to a lack of the most hyperbolic of high-level shenanigans. Any PrC that progresses all of its features and adds more is probably overpowered. 2 of 3 of AC, Wild Shape, and Spellcasting are probably good enough, provided the PrC adds something on its own merits.

That said, there are a complete dearth of druid PrCs that even do that. Almost nothing grants AC advancement, only a handful progress AC, and, beyond that, there really aren't that many druid-flavor things anyway (that don't stand to be rather redundant to the myriad of strengths of core druid). I mean, a list of everything I can think of now....

Arcane Hierophant (theurge, so niche there anyway)
Planar Shepherd (disgustingly overpowered)
Moonspeaker (excellent PrC...but only for shifters, and quite long, eats up serious build space)
Daggerspell Shaper
Blighter (niche)
Verdant Lord (3.0)
Holt Warden
Fochlucan Lyrist (needs build acrobatics to enter, also theurge, so...)
Master of Many Forms (not useful for anyone that wants full/nearly full casting)
Warshaper (niche use, available to druids but not adding much to their core schtick)


Half of those are terrible period, a couple are just not up to snuff with core druid, and a couple are way too restrictive to have wide appeal. I'm sure I missed a bunch, but nothing that stands way out for druidy flavor.

[Nihilarian]

There are decent psionic prestige classes and I would think very carefully about taking one of them before committing to 20 levels with few class features. The Constructor PrC is a fantastic class for almost anyone with Astral Construct. Not to mention the soulknife, which is, well...

Anyway, Druids and Artificers are single classed by default, and it takes something compelling to get them to multiclass. Tome of Battle classes are a bit less certain due to how dip friendly the classes are and the fantastic PrC's in the book, but they can do very well single classed (especially warblades). The Bard, given enough splatbooks, can be quite powerful without PrC'ing or multiclassing.

The Barbarian and Paladin can be heavy damage dealers without multiclassing. However, multiclassing can be a chance for them to expand in other directions. And deal more damage.

Scout and Rogue are better as multiclass characters due to the Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw feats. Fighter and Monk past level 6 or so are just painful.

Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard gain nothing that can't be continued with PrC's.

For 20 level builds, I'd consider Spirit Shaman and Factotum.