3.5 Paladin vs. Holy Crusaderator

[gadren]

Hey, so my friend is starting a 3.5 game, and originally I was thinking of playing a paladin, but it is looking like a Crusader (from ToB:Bo9) that takes the Holy Liberator prestige class is way better off. The Holy Liberator gets about 20 levels of Paladin spells over 10 levels, still benefits from the Battle Blessing feat, and also gets to use the Crusader maneuvers that attack and heal in on action.

Is there anything major I'm missing out on with this build compared to a Paladin?

[Flickerdart]

If you want paladin spells, go Full BAB Class 5/Soldier of Light 2/Divine Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1. At this point you can take 2 levels of anything that progresses divine spells and have 4th level paladin spells plus 4th level spells from your Divine Crusader domain. If you took Contemplative or Sovereign Speaker as those levels, you now have extra domains to prepare spells from, too. Now you can go back to Crusader for the end 9 levels, or keep doing spells, or do Ruby Knight Vindicator and have 9th level spells and 9th level maneuvers, and then use Battle Blessing together with Divine Impetus to drop a ton of paladin spells at once.

[T.G. Oskar]

Namely, the ACFs Paladins get.

Long-form, a Paladin gets to replace its features for others. Of those, the mount can be easily replaced for Divine Spirit, which is great if you go all levels, or Charging Smite for extra SE damage goodness. You can also replace a few others if it happens to be good; Harmonious Knight substitution level trades are pretty good, as you replace Detect Evil for (non-progressing) Inspire Courage and Remove Disease for Inspire Competence and Inspire Greatness, and Cursebreaker is much, much better than that worthless Remove Disease effect. This is good because the mount will not be as good, and the effect of Remove Disease is poor, while the Holy Liberator is forced to retain its Celestial Companion and its replacement effect for Remove Disease (to be fair, though, you get Break Enchantment instead, which is great). That, and...you lack both Lay on Hands and Turn Undead (the former isn't as bad, but the latter definitely does).

The rest is probably a good trade-off but could be better. You still get Smite Evil, but your maneuvers from Crusader will be far, far better (plus usable as many times as you want), your spell capacity will be lower than the Paladin's (a 20th level Paladin gets 3 spell slots of all levels, while a Holy Liberator gets roughly half that potential), and Remove Fatigue is just horrible. You're better with a Paladin of Freedom in that regard. In exchange, you get Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike (good at first, but unless you devote yourself to Crusader it quickly loses steam) and maneuvers, which are always great; on the side of Holy Liberator, you gain immunity to charms and compulsions, not to mention Celestial Creature (which is a faster-progressing special mount/animal companion, based on your character level, and having the celestial template on top). You'll mostly rely on Crusader for your heavy hitting, and on Holy Liberator for a modicum of spell support, but you won't get as many spells as a Paladin does. In the end, if you leapfrog well (that is, you gain extra Crusader levels at the moments where you can gain new maneuvers), you can unlock some pretty good maneuvers. Crusader 14/Holy Liberator 6 nets you just about everything you want from the latter and you still get IL 17th for the top-level maneuvers. Otherwise, if you focus on the power of Paladin spellcasting, the latter tops off just a bit (though you need Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order and Mystic Fire Knight to really unlock the power, and you still lose Turn Undead on that trade, which is bad).

The big loss here is both Turn Undead and that your alignment is incompatible with Wee Jas, because otherwise you could get a fair trade on both 9th level maneuvers, strong spellcasting and Celestial Companion at full strength through Ruby Knight Vindicator. A Crusader 5/Blackguard 5/Holy Knight Vindicator 10 is far, far better because you get that which I mentioned, and you gain everything the Blackguard offers with very little cost. In fact, if you stretch one more level, you could probably push Pious Templar 1 and advance that spellcasting (you get a lot of 1st and 2nd level spells, and potentially an additional 3rd level spell if your Wisdom exceeds 16).

P.S.: what's the news on the webcomic, OP? Waiting for too long...

[Petrocorus]

Almost any Paladin-like PrC is better than Paladin. Pious Templar, Vigilante, Knight of the Weave, Holy Liberator, etc...
Actually, the Holy Liberator is probably the less good ones, because it makes you only as good as a Paladin and the improvement comes from your base classes. Compare to the better Soldier of Light for instance.

The best paladin builds around use only a couple of Paladin levels or none at all. Unless you're really hot for the Holy Mount and you don't want to take Wild Cohort or Leadership.

Look in my sig, there's a list of Paladin builds i gathered on the net, some of them i made. All this builds are better paladin than the Paladin.

And obviously, Crusader are better than Paladin, it's a ToB replacement for the Paladin, and it's considered as being what the paladin should have been.

[OldTrees1]

The A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376)

Overall Strengths: Hi there. I am a paladin. I also Inspire Courage like the most optimized bard, and cast wizard spells in place of paladin spells if I want, at virtually full caster level. Oh, and it looks like I can use 9th level Wizard spells via a scroll, as simple as a vestigial d20 roll with a trivial buff. And, when push comes to shove, I have revival and healing abilities that keep the whole party standing – in your face, Crusader!

Otherwise, go Crusader

[gadren]

(P.S.: what's the news on the webcomic, OP? Waiting for too long...

Sigh...
Well, a lot of bad luck on that front. Not long after recovering from my concussion, I got appendicitis and was in the hospital for a long while. Combine that with finishing my Master's Degree and planning my wedding.....

By the time I was in a condition to write again, my wife, who is also my artist, told me she really wasn't up to continuing to draw the comic, so now I have to find a new artist. So that's why there is no updates. I can't even put an announcement on the website anymore, blegh.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you want paladin spells, go Full BAB Class 5/Soldier of Light 2/Divine Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1. At this point you can take 2 levels of anything that progresses divine spells and have 4th level paladin spells plus 4th level spells from your Divine Crusader domain. If you took Contemplative or Sovereign Speaker as those levels, you now have extra domains to prepare spells from, too. Now you can go back to Crusader for the end 9 levels, or keep doing spells, or do Ruby Knight Vindicator and have 9th level spells and 9th level maneuvers, and then use Battle Blessing together with Divine Impetus to drop a ton of paladin spells at once.

How are you reconciling soldier of light's NG alignment restriction with Prestige Paladin's LG alignment restriction? Just normal, slightly contrived behavioral change? Atonement spell?


Personally, I really don't see the point in choosing between paladin and crusader when you can be both. Paladin 4/ Crusader 1/ RKV 10/ X 5 where X is some class or classes that advance either casting or maneuvers, whichever I feel like at that point.

[Flickerdart]

How are you reconciling soldier of light's NG alignment restriction with Prestige Paladin's LG alignment restriction? Just normal, slightly contrived behavioral change? Atonement spell?
You don't need to stay NG once you get into SoL (something something only need to qualify when you take it, something something CArc and CWar are the only books that need you to meet prerequisites all the time). Local Paladin order says "hey you look like a swell guy, if you clean up your act we'll let you into our order of sweet dudes that rock," damn right you take it.

[Snowbluff]

The A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376)


Otherwise, go Crusader

Actually kind of pathetic. I can cast 9th level spells from a scroll. Think about it. That's something we all figured out a crusader could do on his extraneous skills points.

[OldTrees1]

Actually kind of pathetic. I can cast 9th level spells from a scroll. Think about it. That's something we all figured out a crusader could do on his extraneous skills points.

Oh the scroll part is pathetic. I like the Aura-din aspect of Paladins with Bardic Music.

[Irk]

UMD is not a class skill for crusaders. Also, the DC to do so is 37, at minimum caster level. The A-game paladin is about as good as paladin 20 gets. The only way it could conceivably get better is through bloodlines and flaws.

[Firebug]

Actually kind of pathetic. I can cast 9th level spells from a scroll. Think about it. That's something we all figured out a crusader could do on his extraneous skills points.

Did you read the link? The A-game paladin actually makes me want to play a paladin... Like, pretty sure if my Unseen Seer bites it I am going to convince my DM to let me use it.

The A-game paladin only has to make a DC 18 caster level check (and has a caster level of 18) to cast 9th level wizard spells... so as long as it rolls higher then a 1 it succeeds. 95% success rate.

The DC for a Crusader with Use Magic Device is a 34 (decipher) and a 37 (to cast)... and a 19 Int or another DC 34 Use Magic Device check. Last I checked it wasn't a class skill. So unless you invest in a custom magic item giving +30 to Use Magic Device, you'll likely have a decent chance of failure. Even if it was was a class skill: 23 ranks, 24 Cha (13 base, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent), 19 int (6 enhancement, whatever inherent you need to get to 19), you will still need a 4 and a 7 or a 15% chance of failure followed by a 30% chance. Or only a 60% success rate.

[Snowbluff]

Did you read the link? The A-game paladin actually makes me want to play a paladin... Like, pretty sure if my Unseen Seer bites it I am going to convince my DM to let me use it.

The A-game paladin only has to make a DC 18 caster level check (and has a caster level of 18) to cast 9th level wizard spells... so as long as it rolls higher then a 1 it succeeds. 95% success rate.

The DC for a Crusader with Use Magic Device is a 34 (decipher) and a 37 (to cast)... and a 19 Int or another DC 34 Use Magic Device check. Last I checked it wasn't a class skill. So unless you invest in a custom magic item giving +30 to Use Magic Device, you'll likely have a decent chance of failure. Even if it was was a class skill: 23 ranks, 24 Cha (13 base, 6 enhancement, 5 inherent), 19 int (6 enhancement, whatever inherent you need to get to 19), you will still need a 4 and a 7 or a 15% chance of failure followed by a 30% chance. Or only a 60% success rate.
I did. I have torn it apart previously. It's terribly overrated. Paladin isn't a functioning part of the build, you are dependent on item purchases, and most of it can be done really easily with pretty much any class.

The easy ways is to take an Apprentice Feat for UMD as a Skill, play an Azurin, and take Shape Soulmeld+bonus essentia for a UMD bonus. UMD can also be used to replicate the Bardic Music using the assumed items for the build. After that, you're still ahead on feats. I had a more complete optimization that let me use them without having a class skill, just to rub it in. :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

I did. I have torn it apart previously. It's terribly overrated. Paladin isn't a functioning part of the build, you are dependent on item purchases, and most of it can be done really easily with pretty much any class.

UMD can also be used to replicate the Bardic Music using the assumed items for the build.

How do you use Bardic Music without having Bardic Music? UMD does not give you the class features you pretend to have when activating items.

[Snowbluff]

How do you use Bardic Music without having Bardic Music? UMD does not give you the class features you pretend to have when activating items.

Buy a lute. :smallwink:

Use Song of the White Raven for increasing your bonus.

Done. There was a much more complicated and roundabout way of doing this in the original thread about this. This way is a little iffy.

[Irk]

I did. I have torn it apart previously. It's terribly overrated. Paladin isn't a functioning part of the build, you are dependent on item purchases, and most of it can be done really easily with pretty much any class.

The easy ways is to take an Apprentice Feat for UMD as a Skill, play an Azurin, and take Shape Soulmeld+bonus essentia for a UMD bonus. UMD can also be used to replicate the Bardic Music using the assumed items for the build. After that, you're still ahead on feats. I had a more complete optimization that let me use them without having a class skill, just to rub it in. :smalltongue:
It does not really assume much. I don't even think that the vest of legends or the badge are necessary, it shoots up to +10 without any. Furthermore, the build has wizard spells and the whole aura thingy going for it. Paladin IS most certainly a functional part of the build, though it's the ACFs that really make it tick. However, I don't think that it is as item dependent as you make it out to be. You replicated the bardic music effect with an item and three feats. THe other build gets by with two (one of which has multiple purposes, words of creation) and no items if necessary. Vest of legends + badge are nice, but by no means necessitated. So in this particular instance, the build is superior to your azurin + bonus essentia + shape soul meld + apprentice trick. In addition, the lute only provides +1 bardic music, and doesn't actually scale with level. With song of the white raven, you'll still come out below the paladin without items, unless you invest in two more feats, putting the crusader at 2 more feats used versus the paladin.

EDIT: by lute I assume you mean the CA fochlucan bandolier?

[OldTrees1]

Buy a lute. :smallwink:

Use Song of the White Raven for increasing your bonus.

Done. There was a much more complicated and roundabout way of doing this in the original thread about this. This way is a little iffy.

Lute only increases Bardic Music level for Bards.
So how do you get Bardic Music without levels of Paladin or Bard?

Fair point about the multiclass feat.

[T.G. Oskar]

Lute only increases Bardic Music level for Bards.
So how do you get Bardic Music without levels of Paladin or Bard?

Initiate of Milil? You technically get Bardic Music abilities, but not uses per day, due to how it's written. So, if for some reason you had daily uses of Bardic Music, you'd get Inspire Courage improvements and other traits as a Bard of your Cleric levels, your Paladin levels, or any combination of Cleric + Paladin + Bard. Also, some sweet spells.

Just saying. The A-Game Paladin relies on a Paladin chassis to provide the benefits of a Bard's super-high Inspire Courage through its Smite Evil uses, a pretty solid amount of spellcasting through its spell slots and using scrolls through the iffy process of having access to the Wizard spell list through one way or another, Divine Spirit as a very solid healing/buffing element, and just being that darn hard to kill through the immunities, Divine Grace and high hit point amount. In short, it combines a bit of Bard and a bit of Wizard into the Paladin's chassis without touching any magic item; when you add magic items, the effect magnifies as much as a Wizard getting a Headband of Intellect +6, or a Cleric getting a Periapt of Wisdom +6 and Greater Strand of Prayer Beads on top. Note that the build doesn't rely on multiclassing at all, and it still can behave pretty well as a Paladin if you need it (it retains the Paladin's spells, its Smite Evil class feature and its chassis, though it loses Turn Undead which can hurt), unless you consider essential that the Paladin has a mount (in which case, a Cavalier does a Paladin just as well, if not roughly better with levels of Cleric on top). So saying that the A-Game Paladin relies on the Paladin for nothing is...mistaken (perhaps not gravely, but it does). A Bard/Crusader/Cleric/RKV won't reach the potential the build gets, because it has to sacrifice both Bard and Crusader levels to advance the remaining features, and you have to balance whether to focus on spells, maneuvers, or advancing your Inspire Courage whereas the build has its limits defined and allows you to reach them just as intended.

[OldTrees1]

Initiate of Milil? You technically get Bardic Music abilities, but not uses per day, due to how it's written. So, if for some reason you had daily uses of Bardic Music, you'd get Inspire Courage improvements and other traits as a Bard of your Cleric levels, your Paladin levels, or any combination of Cleric + Paladin + Bard. Also, some sweet spells.


Weird feat. (Should have had the [Bardic] tag to avoid this problem)
However I don't think 0/day cuts the need for Bard/Paladin out of the equation. Thus A-Game Paladin is still the Aura-din build. Perhaps with a Paladin/Crusader alternative.

[Valwyn]

You could try making a pseudo Paladin: Ranger 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar 3/Knight of the Raven 4/Bone Knight 8.

You end up with:

BAB: 4+1+3+4+8 = +20/+15/+10/+5
Ranger CL: 2
Paladin CL: 3+3+7 = 13
Rebuke Undead: 2+8 = 10

Fort: 4+2+3+4+6 = 19
Ref: 4+0+1+1+2 = 8
Will: 1+0+3+4+2 = 10

It's not a real Paladin (no auras, no Divine Grace), and you end up with fewer spells (2/2/2/1 vs 3/3/3/3), but your saves and CL are higher than a regular Paladin's. Plus, you get a ton of immunities, Mettle, the Sun Domain, and Ranger spells (unless you trade them for a bonus feat).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar
...the mount can be easily replaced for Divine Spirit, which is great if you go all levels, or Charging Smite for extra SE damage goodness.

Apart from these two and Underdark Knight, are there any other options for trading out the mount?

[Karnith]

Apart from these two and Underdark Knight, are there any other options for trading out the mount?
There's Stand Fast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and some options to get various special mounts.

So, not really any other good options.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Karnith
There's Stand Fast, and some options to get various special mounts.

Okay, thanks. I'd seen Stand Fast, but not all that impressive. Ah well.



Also, to the OP:


Originally Posted by gadren
...So that's why there is no updates. I can't even put an announcement on the website anymore, blegh.

Regrettable, since I checked out your webcomic after T.G. Oskar asked about it. I ended up reading more than I'd planned on, which is a good sign. Hope you'll let us know if you can get it running again.

[Snowbluff]

Weird feat. (Should have had the [Bardic] tag to avoid this problem)
However I don't think 0/day cuts the need for Bard/Paladin out of the equation. Thus A-Game Paladin is still the Aura-din build. Perhaps with a Paladin/Crusader alternative. Could work.

I think the part I find most offensive part about the build is the "I can use scrolls!" part. With 2 feats you can get a +10 UMD with Incarnum, and another feat gives it as a class skill. The build uses a ton of mandatory feats for very specific roles, one of which is easily replicated with a skill.

I wouldn't call the auras and healing any better than crusader. I'd say "different." Considering the scrolls the paladin has are considered his top end ability, and they are greater than the sum of the rest of his character, the sub abilities might as well be negligible. I guess this says more about the UMD skill, in the end.

[OldTrees1]

Could work.

I think the part I find most offensive part about the build is the "I can use scrolls!" part. With 2 feats you can get a +10 UMD with Incarnum, and another feat gives it as a class skill. The build uses a ton of mandatory feats for very specific roles, one of which is easily replicated with a skill.

I wouldn't call the auras and healing any better than crusader. I'd say "different." Considering the scrolls the paladin has are considered his top end ability, and they are greater than the sum of the rest of his character, the sub abilities might as well be negligible. I guess this says more about the UMD skill, in the end.

I did consider sniping out the reference to scrolls from the quote. So I agree that it is the least* important part of the build and worth ignoring.

I also agree that the Aura-din is different than Crusader. That is why I offered it as an alternative to Crusader. Not more powerful, merely different.

*Unless you are unfortunate enough to be in a campaign with "9ths or GTFO" level of optimization (which sounds like where the author of the A-Game Paladin came from). The OP does not sound so unfortunate so the scrolls option is the least important feature.