Artificer Crossbowman 3.5

[D4rkh0rus]

I've been looking around and read some artificer handbooks, but there wasn't any section for a crossbow wielding one, just a Wand blaster.

How Would I go about making an artificer that wields crossbows.

Preferably a great crossbow (if possible, capable of killing something in 1 shot)

also would Aptitude Great crossbow work with handcrossbow focus?

[Heliomance]

I'm assuming you play DDO? The DDO Artificer is a very different beastie from the P&P Artificer. The P&P version doesn't have any particular synergy with crossbows, there is in fact nothing about the class that improves crossbow use at all, I don't think.

[D4rkh0rus]

I'm assuming you play DDO? The DDO Artificer is a very different beastie from the P&P Artificer. The P&P version doesn't have any particular synergy with crossbows, there is in fact nothing about the class that improves crossbow use at all, I don't think.

No, Im talking about the P&P Artificer from the eberron setting.

And I guess the fact that an artificer can make his weapons a very decent reason to take any martial weapon... I just wanna focus with a crossbow.

Which feats/tricks/combos can I use for damage?

[Lightlawbliss]

Why c-bow? Just the flavor of it?

The c-bow isn't know as one of the great damage dealers of 3.5, it is a slow weapon just about anyone can use (the main reason it was used at all irl).

If you want to use the c-bow, the first step to dealing damage is get more attacks. The second is knowledge devotion and any other methods of bonus to hit and damage on every attack. The third is buffs and the removal of annoying penalties.

[roguemetal]

Get yourself a Repeating Crossbow and the Crossbow Sniper Feat.

And like Lightlawbliss mentioned, Knowledge Devotion is a must.

[Joe the Rat]

yeah... there's general crossbow stuff, then there's general artificer stuff...

Given the speed, one-shot kills would be good. Reloading (via enchantment or cantrip) would be a godsend. Learning to use the repeater is another option, particularly is combat is over in 5 shots or less. For something a little less wacky, see if you can get a double crossbow - if you don't try for the double-shot, it gives you two shots from fully loaded. Until your iteratives come online, you can shoot one while the other is loading magically.

Of course, you can always take the best of both and get a wand chamber in your crossbow, if for no other reason that to say "I've got my crossbow chambered with lightning bolts."

[Urpriest]

There are archery-focused Artificers, since archery tends to be well supported by Persistomancy, weapon special abilities, and the ability to dig in obscure spell lists for spells. If you google the Archeficer you'll find a few guides dealing with that.

Note that crossbows are still generally a waste of feats, unless you're doing something especially silly with them, so you'll probably want to use a bow.

[D4rkh0rus]

yeah... there's general crossbow stuff, then there's general artificer stuff...

Given the speed, one-shot kills would be good. Reloading (via enchantment or cantrip) would be a godsend. Learning to use the repeater is another option, particularly is combat is over in 5 shots or less. For something a little less wacky, see if you can get a double crossbow - if you don't try for the double-shot, it gives you two shots from fully loaded. Until your iteratives come online, you can shoot one while the other is loading magically.

Of course, you can always take the best of both and get a wand chamber in your crossbow, if for no other reason that to say "I've got my crossbow chambered with lightning bolts."

Lighting Bolts Oh the irony. I wonder If I can enchant lightning with the Bane property too. I like the sound of that.

[D4rkh0rus]

There are archery-focused Artificers, since archery tends to be well supported by Persistomancy, weapon special abilities, and the ability to dig in obscure spell lists for spells. If you google the Archeficer you'll find a few guides dealing with that.

Note that crossbows are still generally a waste of feats, unless you're doing something especially silly with them, so you'll probably want to use a bow.

the concept relies on a purely mechanism centric character. Everything will be fluffled to be mechanical, even wands (except for scrolls of course)

So How would I fluff a mechanical bow? (you know, gears and whirring noises and maybe some steampunk thrown in for good measure)

[Lightlawbliss]

Get yourself a Repeating Crossbow and the Crossbow Sniper Feat. ...

crossbow sniper being terrible, bad, ok, good, or must-have depends on the build and the stats of the character. A sneak attacker with 20 starting dex and most increases going to dex: must have. An artificer with 10 starting dex: it might be worth a feat latter on.

[Urpriest]

the concept relies on a purely mechanism centric character. Everything will be fluffled to be mechanical, even wands (except for scrolls of course)

So How would I fluff a mechanical bow? (you know, gears and whirring noises and maybe some steampunk thrown in for good measure)

Like this, maybe?
http://www.bowhunting.com/content/modules/rhino.pages/files/uploads/diagrams/bow-diagram.jpg

That said, if you're particularly fond of the crossbow, there are ways to make it useful. It's a feat-heavy path, but you're a Tier 1 caster, so you'll still be strong. I could see a build using Crossbow Sniper alongside Nightstalker's Transformation, Hunter's Eye, and Greater Invisibility, for example.

[Joe the Rat]

the concept relies on a purely mechanism centric character. Everything will be fluffled to be mechanical, even wands (except for scrolls of course)

So How would I fluff a mechanical bow? (you know, gears and whirring noises and maybe some steampunk thrown in for good measure)

How broadly are you (and your DM) willing to "fluff" a bow? If you have to burn a feat for proficiency, "WP: Greatbow" can become "WP: Unique wacky steampunk clip fed repeating crossbow with underslung grenade launcher, but it totally uses the stats and rules for Greatbow"... if you don't mind not being able to use actual bows...

[D4rkh0rus]

Like this, maybe?
http://www.bowhunting.com/content/modules/rhino.pages/files/uploads/diagrams/bow-diagram.jpg

That said, if you're particularly fond of the crossbow, there are ways to make it useful. It's a feat-heavy path, but you're a Tier 1 caster, so you'll still be strong. I could see a build using Crossbow Sniper alongside Nightstalker's Transformation, Hunter's Eye, and Greater Invisibility, for example.

Not enough whirring gears D:

How is an artificer a tier 1 caster if he doesn't cast spells? ><

[Petrocorus]

There are also a couple of Crossbow feats in Drow of the Underdark.


Not enough whirring gears D:

How is an artificer a tier 1 caster if he doesn't cast spells? ><

Because he actually can cast any spell in the game, earlier than the class who is supposed to cast it, thanks to his ability to create scroll and wands without XP cost. Plus make any magic item in the game and potentially custom items too.

[D4rkh0rus]

There are also a couple of Crossbow feats in Drow of the Underdark.



Because he actually can cast any spell in the game, earlier than the class who is supposed to cast it, thanks to his ability to create scroll and wands without XP cost. Plus make any magic item in the game and potentially custom items too.

Oh yea, I forgot he could create divine scrolls/wands as well.

But yea, Fluffing a mechanical bow gets you a crossbow... ><

[ArcaneGlyph]

Go warforged and get an arblaster component. Mayeb homebrew it a little to scale better and have fun playing robocop.

[Invader]

Have multiple crossbows and homoculi to load them for you. It might require quick draw and some fluff but nothing unreasonable to make it work.

[Urpriest]

Not enough whirring gears D:

How is an artificer a tier 1 caster if he doesn't cast spells? ><

"Caster" is loose terminology. Tier 1 is all I meant.

Crossbow archery is good for lots of attacks with TWF and Rapid Shot both applying, it's good for getting sneak attack at slightly longer range with Crossbow Sniper, and it's handy for adding Dex to damage with the same feat. So if you want to pursue crossbows, I'd leverage those traits.

[Darkweave31]

Go warforged and get an arblaster component. Mayeb homebrew it a little to scale better and have fun playing robocop.


+1 to arbalester homunculi if you're going for mechanical feel. Now you don't need to take archery feats and can just have an arbalester perched on either shoulder that fire on your command. Use your actions elsewhere... like on that crossbow with a wandchamber that was mentioned above

[D4rkh0rus]

+1 to arbalester homunculi if you're going for mechanical feel. Now you don't need to take archery feats and can just have an arbalester perched on either shoulder that fire on your command. Use your actions elsewhere... like on that crossbow with a wandchamber that was mentioned above

So basically You're saying that I get to go around toting what basically could be defined as a predator gun (from predator or aliens vs predators)?

oh yea. I definetely wanna pursue that. How would I go about it?

[Bloodgruve]

Arblaster is a homunculus that you create. I believe its out of Magic of Eberron book. All you need is time and money and you can have your self loading shoulder mounted cross bows. I'm away from my books but I believe they start at a certain HD, you can add or improve your creations up to one or two HD lower than yourself. They themselves gain feats and BAB as you improve them also ;).

[Darkweave31]

Artificer can craft homunculi at level 4 as if he had the craft construct feat

Arbalester is on page 152 of Magic of Eberron. Description says it looks like a crossbow, picture looks like a bow, craft it however you want.

You'll probably want the improved homunculus feat (also magic of eberron) to give them more HD and other abilities (like climb or fly).

You can enchant the crossbow that the homunculus is based on regularly so load up on good archery enchantments (collision, splitting if it works with crossbows, speed may be good in this case too).

Then since they are constructs use your infusions to buff them further.

For more information I'd suggest looking into hordificer for how to improve upon them and general strategies for using homunculi.

[Petrocorus]

Mandatory Artificer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0). The Hordificer and Archerficer sections cover the topic of crossbows and Arbalesters pretty well.


So basically You're saying that I get to go around toting what basically could be defined as a predator gun (from predator or aliens vs predators)?


Thou Shalt Not Talk About alien vs. predator.

[D4rkh0rus]

Mandatory Artificer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0). The Hordificer and Archerficer sections cover the topic of crossbows and Arbalesters pretty well.



Thou Shalt Not Talk About alien vs. predator.

Shall I talk about a better love story then? you know, one involving a vampire and a mary sue, a story whose name cannot be named much like that singing kid and the dark lord of magic himself?

is there any other artificer resource other than that handbook?

[Petrocorus]

Shall I talk about a better love story then? you know, one involving a vampire and a mary sue, a story whose name cannot be named much like that singing kid and the dark lord of magic himself?

is there any other artificer resource other than that handbook?

Are you speaking of Voldemort, because i shall say this name without fear.
And no, no one speak of that other stuffs.

And for the handbooks, you might find others, here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=skifnivd54dv5g3ll4j1n3rqb4&topic=399.0) for example. But i find myself that the first one is the most comprehensive and exhaustive. And you can download it in a well paginated PDF.

[Urpriest]

Shall I talk about a better love story then? you know, one involving a vampire and a mary sue, a story whose name cannot be named much like that singing kid and the dark lord of magic himself?

is there any other artificer resource other than that handbook?

There's the Zeroficer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11474) handbook if you want to be more of an ass.

[D4rkh0rus]

There's the Zeroficer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11474) handbook if you want to be more of an ass.

Derp.

What I still don't get, Is why crossbows are that much worse than bows?

Point blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot are feats you're gonna take for either.

From what I gather, a great crossbow only needs 2 other feats and a +1 enhancement (Aptitude), Hand Crossbow Focus and Crossbow Sniper.


Hand crossbow focus is the "necessary to make this work" feat. And unless I'm missing something here, its only 1 feat....

Now, Crossbow sniper gives x0.5 Dex to Dmg and constantly lets you make precision dmg up to 60 ft. this feat is worth taking in my opinion. But for the sake of not having any arguments, lets just say its another "Necessary to make this work" feat, Since my Dex would be decently higher than my str, so It would make up a composite bow's bonus...

I know feats are valuable, But two feats isn't the end of the world...

Everyone here acts as if crossbows and bows were in two whole dimensions, to the point of not even considering crossbows in the slightest bit, like comparing a rat to a T-rex or something... but I can't imagine how is the power difference so great....

So, what is the main thing that makes bows so much better... is it Hank's Bow's power attack? Or is there something strange and hidden thing that I haven't seen yet....

If possible I'd want numbers to prove it. How powerful can 1 shot from a bow be, how powerful can 1 shot from a crossbow be? how powerful can a full attack of either be?

[Forrestfire]

Less resource investment on the bows, probably. If you want to full attack with a crossbow, you're bringing either a feat or two, or a weapon enhancement. Bows get full attacks without any resource investment.

In addition to that, you can add strength to damage on a composite bow; can't do that with a crossbow. Bows generally also have more support among spells. For example: Arrow Mind and Arrow Storm only work if you're using a bow.

[Heliomance]

There's also the fact that Hand Crossbow Focus on an Aptitude Great Crossbow is so ludicrously obviously against RAI that it's only going to fly with DMs that are completely fine with at least high-mid-op cheese, which is not the average player's situation. And without that, you can't get iteratives with a crossbow.