Brave Hearted Commoner Army, Fighting For FREEDOM!

[VanIsleKnight]

I became extremely bored last night, and imagined a fight between a ton of commoners with more guts than brains and a superior but outnumbered foe. Mostly because my friend has a 5th level character with 32 AC and is nigh impossible to hit (I joked he could single-handedly slaughter an army of filthy peasant folk without fear of death) and because of the film Braveheart.

So, here's the basic idea, sans ridiculous AC person who wades into battle with endless laughter.

There is an 'army' of 100 1st level human commoners, 50 of which are to be melee, 50 of which are to be ranged. They have the Pathfinder basic stats of 8,9,10,11,12,13.

This 'army' is dirt poor, having been overtaxed and left with barely anything more than the clothes on their backs as their respective homes were burnt down to the ground. Realistically all they have on their side is the following:

They're equipped with clubs for the melee group and slings for the ranged group for weapons, with stones for ammunition.
No armor.
Two feats that are up in the air as to what they can have.
The element of surprise as they aren't expected to rally together.


Let's say they're storming the fort of the local commander who is making their lives miserable, which has the following features:

It is set upon a hill that slopes 10 feet above the surrounding area.
It is 60x60 feet with 10 foot high wooden palisade walls.
Each corner of the fort has a watch tower with at least guard present at each tower at all times.
There is only one entrance, two heavy wooden doors on the south side in the center of the wall that is 10 feet wide. It's well crafted and a heavy slab of wood is used to bar it.
There are thirty soldiers stationed here, Human Fighter 1, with Heroic NPC stats (8,10,12,13,14,15), who are evenly split between range/melee focus.
Melee are outfitted with chainmail, heavy wooden shields, and long swords. Power attack, cleave, and weapon focus are their feats. 16 strength, 13 dex, 15 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 8 cha. They can use longbows etc but aren't specialized to do so.
Ranged are outfitted with longbows, studded leather armor, and short swords. Point blank shot, precise shot, and far shot are their feats. 13 str, 16 dex, 15 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 8 cha. They can use long swords etc but aren't specialized to do so.
The Commander is a 4th level human Fighter with the following stats:
Str:18 (+1 from 4th level, +2 from human)
Dex:14
Con:13
Int:12
Wis:8
Cha:10

HP 33 (10+15+Con+Favored Class)

+1 Heavy Steel Shield
Fullplate
+1 Battleaxe

Level 1: Weapon Focus: Battleaxe
Human: Power Attack
Fighter Lvl 1: Cleave
Fighter Lvl 2: Shield Focus
Level 3: Dodge
Fighter Lvl 4: Weapon Specialization: Battleaxe


Assuming you're avoiding the normal shenanigans that no level-headed and competent DM would allow, what could this group realistically accomplish?

Bonus question: What's the toughest foe this 'army' could fight and defeat?

[Stux]

Assuming you're avoiding the normal shenanigans that no level-headed and competent DM would allow, what could this group realistically accomplish?

So no commoner-rail-gunning the fort to pieces then? :smallwink:

[Nirhael]

Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) and watch your level 5 friend be slaughtered by Commoners.

[VanIsleKnight]

So no commoner-rail-gunning the fort to pieces then? :smallwink:

Pretty much, yes. Or that silly chicken idea that people are so fond of.

[Kennisiou]

I'd suggest crossbows and rapid reload feat > slings, actually. If you're beholden to slings I'd suggest having at least a few of the ranged fighters go mounted combat > mounted archery for feats and be riding farm animals. Cows, Mules, workhorses. Nothing that's particularly combat trained, but they should be able to obey simple riding commands and probably trust their riders enough to do so without getting spooked. That's all the riders need to gain a movement and range advantage to exploit, which is probably the best way to make a bunch of level one commoners difficult to fight outside of infinite chickens cheese.

For the melee commoners, consider getting them some incarnum feats, maybe? Not sure what they qualify for at first level, but if they can nab any it's probably the best thing they can do period. Improved unarmed strike + touch of golden ice on a few would be great if your PCs are evil. If you're looking at the toughest thing they could fight and defeat... If you give them touch of golden ice then any evil creature with low touch AC and no means of mass killing all the commoners in a single turn is probably going to die, since they can just touch it to death 100 times.

[Venusaur]

Handle Animal + Aid Another seems like a good plan. How does a Battletitan sound?

[Drachasor]

Without a way of busting down or bypassing the wall the commoners are dead. Heck, outnumbering the military guys 3-1 on an open field would probably end in the military winning. The commoners will hit about 25% of the time, whereas the military will hit about 75% of the time.

Now, from that commoner guide, I suppose you could give the commons all Soulspark familiars and they'll win, but that seems like it falls under shenanigans. Assuming you can get that feat at first level (I don't know off-hand).

So the commoners would have to be really clever and crafty. Perhaps attack when the enemy is fatigued or some such if possible (hard to do that, I think). Now sure there are ways to get the gate open just before the attack, probably -- bluffing their way in with a wagon which breaks. But again, they aren't going to win in a fair fight either.

Most tactics are out if you insist they have absolutely no money. Imho, they should at least have leather armor they can coble together, and shields too, potentially. And if they have a supply of wood and crafting tools they could make some sort of crude siege engine. Even just being able to guarantee cover would help.

But a 3-1 ratio is honestly hard on a sieger with equally trained troops. It's almost impossible with crappy troops. You'd really want something like 10-1 odds. 200-300 commoners would have a much better chance.

[avr]

About the only advantage the commoners have is that they can determine when to attack and only they know the relative numbers. Maybe they can get close enough to pop up and have 50 slingers firing at the one guy in one tower, hope for enough hits to take him down permanently, then retreat.

If the fort guard pursue they're out of the fort and maybe you can ambush them with pit traps or snares (and their commander might be court-martialled for stupidity later!), if they rush archers to the towers and fire down hopefully the commoners can make it to cover first, if they do nothing in particular the commoners rinse and repeat.

The obvious problems with this plan are that there may not be cover close enough, and your slingers probably aren't disciplined enough to pull off the volley all at once.

As to what the fort guard could defeat ... given a sufficiently stupid enemy, any number of dumb melee monsters which can't fly or burrow and can't get thru or over a palisade reasonably fast. OTOH one shadow could wipe them out if it doesn't attack the leader first.

[Callin]

Give em all the two binder feats that will net you a binder level of five and then let em fire breath the hell outta the fort till its smoking rubble

[Meth In a Mine]

About the only advantage the commoners have is that they can determine when to attack and only they know the relative numbers. Maybe they can get close enough to pop up and have 50 slingers firing at the one guy in one tower, hope for enough hits to take him down permanently, then retreat.
I'm reasonably certain the longbow fighters could take out plenty of peasants before they closed to sling range...
Unless I'm missing something, in which case by all means enlighten me.

Bonus Question: I think that the commoners could defeat anything that they can hit on anything less than a natural 20, and the creature in question are CR 6 or lower.

[avr]

Cover. You're missing the possibility that there might be cover within 500' of the fort, Meth. A forest or a rise or a gully or even crops tall enough to entirely conceal their approach.

[Zonugal]

A couple questions...

Are you using Pathfinder rules or 3.5?

And why don't the commoners just cut off supply lines into the fortress? Unless the military has a way of spawning food the commoners can break them via starvation?


Read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) and watch your level 5 friend be slaughtered by Commoners.

Yay, my guide is still being used!


Now, from that commoner guide, I suppose you could give the commons all Soulspark familiars and they'll win, but that seems like it falls under shenanigans. Assuming you can get that feat at first level (I don't know off-hand).

You can.

[Meth In a Mine]

Cover. You're missing the possibility that there might be cover within 500' of the fort, Meth. A forest or a rise or a gully or even crops tall enough to entirely conceal their approach.
A good point. My position is indeed based on that assumption (where you got 500' is beyond me, I can't imagine a sling shooting that far) I don't know about the fort architects, but I would try to build a fort that is easily defensible and thus hazardous to attack (ergo, a nice large killing zone for archers). Perhaps I assumed too much.

Cheers

[rmnimoc]

I'm afraid that short of shenanigans, your poor army is about to get stomped. Brutally. Less a fight, more a massacre.
The soldiers have the following advantages:
Better gear
More skill
Better stats
Actual training
They will probably see the army at about 200 feet away if the peasants are being quiet and not actually acting like the army from braveheart.
Fighters are professional soldiers, assume at least 25% on duty at all times.

Your peasants have no siege equipment, no money, and barring handle animal cheese, no way to get inside the fort before nearly all of them are slaughtered by longbows. You know, the weapon that tore the Scottish army to shreds in nearly every battle the English used it. The only reason the Wallace won the battle of Stirling Bridge is because the English had no choice but to charge across a bridge, only to discover the way back was covered in caltrops. Caltrops+horses=dead cavalry. That, the choke point, some very clever moves from the Scottish, and the thick mud everywhere is what cost the English there (plus the fact their archers were taken out of the game early because the english army overslept). Plus the Scottish army wasn't armed with just clubs and slings.
You are stuck fighting in terrain that favors the enemy (they have a castle/fort), you are horribly armed, and unlike William Wallace and his professional army, all you have are commoners with no skill or training and no military leader.

Honestly, their best bet would be to enter the fort, business as usual, steal all the equipment you can, then hit the fighters before they know what is going on.
Any attempt at a real fight will end in a very short and rather bloody massacre.
Longbows and cleave will totally ruin their day.

Unless all the commoners have animal affinity and skill focus:handle animal and all come charging in on megaraptors. Megaraptor cavalry is awesome.

On a side note, both the peasant army and the actual army have about the same encounter level, 10.

[Gwendol]

I don't understand why they are so poorly equipped? Slings but no stones, what is that?
Why can't they build some necessary equipment to close the distance in relative safety?

Looking at the setup of the fort I would collect bundles of reeds and dry wood, tar and/or oil, light torches, gather the clubs and the pitchforks, and set fires at chosen locations around the fort. Coming from different directions means the archers need to spread their shots. Running means the commoners can close 120' in one round. The defending archers can only hope to hit 1 commoner per round, and even then one arrow may not be enough to down them.
We can assume not all archers (15) are manning the towers, more likely there are 4-8 of them.
This means that even if the peasants aren't able to build any kind of protection (highly unlikely; just unhinge a door or something to gain cover) they will still be able to close the distance to the fort without suffering more than 8-16 kills (assuming two rounds of running to reach the wall), and much less if they can gain any kind of cover or protection. Ye old wooden cart filled with flammable material can serve as both protection and source of fire for example.

Once the fires are lit, the defenders will be forced to organize themselves to put them out, at which point the main force could make their approach. Bring a battering ram (=tree trunk or similar) and break down the door, or scale the palissade using ladders. I wouldn't bother with sling shots for the peasants; just close the distance and clobber the buggers. With superior numbers they at least have a chance to flank a lot of the defenders for that precious +2 to hit.

[Drachasor]

Cover. You're missing the possibility that there might be cover within 500' of the fort, Meth. A forest or a rise or a gully or even crops tall enough to entirely conceal their approach.

It's a fort. It would have been placed in a location where there was no terrain cover nearby and forested areas and tall grass would be cleared. This is in fact standard practice when building forts by any reasonably intelligent being.

[Bullet06320]

in the braveheart scenario, the fort was right ontop of the village, 100yards at most, so the commoners where right at the walls very fast, gaining an early advantage of surprise, and able to climb up the walls, helping each other over the walls(aid another to skill checks in game terms)
granted its been awhile since I seen the movie
but I recall most of them was armed with farm impliments and other handy improvised weapons
surprise and numbers won the day, despite not having proper equiptment
altho in this particular scenario many of them would've had warrior levels IMO, maybe a couple with actual fighter levels, if u look at the historical aspect and the cultural aspect, it does make some sense
and I don't recall any on of them using missle weapons in that scene, all melee, again, been awhile since I scene the movie

[Gwendol]

It's a fort. It would have been placed in a location where there was no terrain cover nearby and forested areas and tall grass would be cleared. This is in fact standard practice when building forts by any reasonably intelligent being.

Many forts were placed adjacent to villages in order to provide protection from attacks. The village being their prime source of food after all.

[avr]

It's a fort. It would have been placed in a location where there was no terrain cover nearby and forested areas and tall grass would be cleared. This is in fact standard practice when building forts by any reasonably intelligent being.
To an extent. That's a pretty low hill it's on though which suggests that there may be other concerns - building forts on high ground is another thing that any reasonably intelligent being does when they can.

With 30 soldiers and wooden walls it's not like this is a force which could level the area or being supported by great wads of money.

There's no guarantee that there would be cover but I wouldn't write it off as a possibility.

[Drachasor]

Many forts were placed adjacent to villages in order to provide protection from attacks. The village being their prime source of food after all.

From what I understand that was fairly rare outside of Castles and towns outgrowing defensive walls. It would be especially unlikely in hostile territory like the OP indicates -- while they might not expect an attack, I wouldn't think they'd build a fort to be especially vulnerable to an uprising.

I might be wrong here as it isn't something I've studied a lot, but I didn't find much evidence that the OP's fort would be built next to the town.


To an extent. That's a pretty low hill it's on though which suggests that there may be other concerns - building forts on high ground is another thing that any reasonably intelligent being does when they can.

With 30 soldiers and wooden walls it's not like this is a force which could level the area or being supported by great wads of money.

There's no guarantee that there would be cover but I wouldn't write it off as a possibility.

It was likely built with more people and then only a small defensive contingent remained afterwards. And 30 people can level a pretty large area given time if that's important (and it would be). Again though, it was probably more than 30 people when the fort was made.

[Fouredged Sword]

The commoners could take advantage of cover through darkness. Choosing to make the raid on a moonless night would allow them to get very close to the walls without getting shot at effectively. Untrained hide checks would still receive large bonuses from the darkness and distance. In the very least, they would have a miss chance even if spotted. That would benefit the commoners (who are relying on numbers to land hits) over the soldiers anyway. Slingers could then keep the archer's head's down long enough to get a ram up to the fort.

Also, at night, many of the soldiers will be asleep. You have maybe 25 soldiers on the wall (most likely 10-15) and they are in the dark, and half of them are on the wrong side of the fort. ALL the commoners are awake and ready and in position to throw some sling stones. The soldiers have to don armor and grab weapons before moving into position. That means you have 3-5 rounds of fighting where the commoners GREATLY outnumber the soldiers.

In a melee, I actually put the commoners in the win column if they fight intelligently. Have one out of three with improved grapple and take one of the soldiers into a grapple. You deny his ability to make attacks and debuff his defense while your two friends club him to death. Grapple and take him to the ground.

[Gwendol]

The commoners could take advantage of cover through darkness. Choosing to make the raid on a moonless night would allow them to get very close to the walls without getting shot at effectively. Untrained hide checks would still receive large bonuses from the darkness and distance. In the very least, they would have a miss chance even if spotted. That would benefit the commoners (who are relying on numbers to land hits) over the soldiers anyway. Slingers could then keep the archer's head's down long enough to get a ram up to the fort.

Also, at night, many of the soldiers will be asleep. You have maybe 25 soldiers on the wall (most likely 10-15) and they are in the dark, and half of them are on the wrong side of the fort. ALL the commoners are awake and ready and in position to throw some sling stones. The soldiers have to don armor and grab weapons before moving into position. That means you have 3-5 rounds of fighting where the commoners GREATLY outnumber the soldiers.

In a melee, I actually put the commoners in the win column if they fight intelligently. Have one out of three with improved grapple and take one of the soldiers into a grapple. You deny his ability to make attacks and debuff his defense while your two friends club him to death. Grapple and take him to the ground.

Actually, there is no indication of the defenders being able to man the wall. Only the towers are manned. But yes, any kind of concealment/cover will aid immensly. Also, why would the defenders start firing arrows at commoners milling around? I would argue that a minor contingent should be able to get close enough not to give the archers more than one round worth of actions before the fires are lit, or the carriage is pushed close enough to the gate.

[Drachasor]

In a melee, I actually put the commoners in the win column if they fight intelligently. Have one out of three with improved grapple and take one of the soldiers into a grapple. You deny his ability to make attacks and debuff his defense while your two friends club him to death. Grapple and take him to the ground.

They have about a 25% chance of actually getting a grapple to work. Touch Attack of +1 against touch AC 11. Grapple check of +5 against a +4. Given that the enemy can easily hit AC 10 or 11 AND they have cleave AND a hit is almost certainly a KO, I don't think this would work out very well.

[Gnaeus]

The commoners all take Hidden Talent. Psionic Charm Person, and either Chameleon or Inertial Armor. Light Infantry sneak up to fortress walls with Chameleon, and overwhelm the door guards with multiple charm attempts. Then the heavies (with Inertial Armor) rush in, charm everyone in sight, and then mob the handful that can make 3 will saves. I think we still have a feat left.

Edit: Oops, only one power. Better go with charm person. Sneak up to the wall some other way. On the + side, they can each use it twice.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would then have ALL the commoners take improved grapple and Weapon Focus (grapple) so that they are looking at +2 to the grapple attempt. Everyone charges the guards or moves into flanking positions (if they are to close to charge). Now that 11 touch AC is facing a +4 attack mod, and three attempts per round.

That is not to say that lots of commoners won't die, but they have numbers. Once the door is breached, the slingers can join the melee. They can take Improved Grapple and weapon focus as well.

Now, this by no means ensures victory, but it would give them a fighting chance. If they can breach the wall quickly enough, they could be facing soldiers unready to meet them in combat, and they could win.

If the solders prepared correctly and got a good spot check early on, then they could get prepared to brace the door and counter the greater number of commoners.

[Slipperychicken]

The commoners could just lay siege the old fashioned way:

Do not attack the fort directly.
Wait outside and shoot anyone who tries to sally out for resources.
Build (ideally mobile) cover/fortifications out of trees and debris (or dig trenches), and hide behind them. This should provide Total Cover (i.e. can't touch this) when completely hidden behind, and Improved Cover (+8 AC) while firing from it, making it very hard for longbowmen to hit. This should require at most a Craft(Carpentry) or Knowledge(Engineering), and should even the playing field between longbow and sling.
Commoners who are hit once and survive should retreat and rest until they recover.
The speed 15 fullplate-men should never get a swing in because they're so slow (a Running fullplate-man gets 60ft and quickly tires out, while Commoners can double-move for 60ft all day). If they approach, kite them with sling stones. They will eventually succumb to fatigue and the slings of outrageous fortune (i.e. nat 20s).
If the fort-army is prevented from accessing food or water (or sufficiently harassed whenever they try to get it), they will eventually fall unconscious or surrender due to thirst and starvation. This should be done by clearing the surrounding area of edible food and water sources, keeping it all for the commoners. If they offer surrender, demand that they evacuate the fort one at a time in intervals of two minutes each wearing nothing but their underwear.
Do not attack the walls directly: Put ranks in Knowledge(Engineering) and Profession(Mining) to sap the fort's walls from below (that works on palisades, right?). Eventually, this tactic should leave the fort as a pile of rubble.
If possible, shoot flaming missiles at the walls/towers to try to burn them down.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wonder if the commoners can summon Orcus or some other evil something with the sacrifice rules in BoVD. Hmm. I mean, if Joe Commoner can't use mass murder to acquire evil power, that suggests the Demon Princes are doing it wrong.

[Slipperychicken]

I wonder if the commoners can summon Orcus or some other evil something with the sacrifice rules in BoVD. Hmm. I mean, if Joe Commoner can't use mass murder to acquire evil power, that suggests the Demon Princes are doing it wrong.

If they can score a DC 25 Know(religion) check when sacrificing a commoner, they get an evil outsider for 1 hour as per Lesser Planer Ally (up to 6HD). That goes up to regular planar ally with DC 30.

The DC 25 could net them a Succubus (6HD), which can easily wreck the fort via Greater Teleport, its SLA's, and DR 10. It could port in, Change Shape into something tanky, spam Suggestion ("let me kiss you" -> energy drain, or "leave the fort and surrender"). Or better yet, it could Suggestion the commander into ordering his men to surrender.

EDIT: The DC 30, if you can hit it, could summon up a score a Bebelith, or a Barbed Devil. Either of those CR 10-11 fiends could tear through the army like nobody's business.

[Fooliscious]

In regards to grappling, there are 3 commoners plus some change for every warrior in the fort. That's 1 grapple, and 2 aid another's. That's at least a +5. Swarm tactics and grappling work great, pull em down, pin em and beat the ever living crap outta them.

Give the commoners imp unarmed strike. Then they can all latch onto a soldier like a spider monkey and pound him into a pulp. Once the fort is breached its pretty much over. Approach at night, light up the watch towers with slings(50 attack rolls oughta drop at least one watchmen). If they have imp unarmed strike, might as well give em all slings.

[Drachasor]

In regards to grappling, there are 3 commoners plus some change for every warrior in the fort. That's 1 grapple, and 2 aid another's. That's at least a +5. Swarm tactics and grappling work great, pull em down, pin em and beat the ever living crap outta them.

Give the commoners imp unarmed strike. Then they can all latch onto a soldier like a spider monkey and pound him into a pulp. Once the fort is breached its pretty much over. Approach at night, light up the watch towers with slings(50 attack rolls oughta drop at least one watchmen). If they have imp unarmed strike, might as well give em all slings.

Two lines of defenders at the gate. The first line gets grappled. The second line kills all enemy grapplers in one round using attacks and cleaves. First line holds their actions until grapplers are killed, then attacks and kills more. Rinse and repeat because the first line can take quite a bit of punishment compared to commoners. Meanwhile, archers are killing people too.

[Fouredged Sword]

As I said, if the commoners can get through the gate before the soldiers can set up, they win. If the commoners fail to do so, they die. Depending on the layout and specifics of the fort and the situation, it could be long odds or a 50/50.

[Fooliscious]

Two lines of defenders at the gate. The first line gets grappled. The second line kills all enemy grapplers in one round using attacks and cleaves. First line holds their actions until grapplers are killed, then attacks and kills more. Rinse and repeat because the first line can take quite a bit of punishment compared to commoners. Meanwhile, archers are killing people too.

I would expect a little bit more tact then storm the gate.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, that's not working unless they can force the defenders to split up by attacking from different directions and/or using diversions.

[VanIsleKnight]

A few clarifications:

The walls are just the normal wooden logs with spiked tops, so cannot be walked on. The guards are posted at the four towers on the corners.

I meant to specify Pathfinder more obviously, oops.

The commoners are so poorly equipped as the items they have are what is literally free from the PHB.