[PF] Trip

[Zeromage1]

Trip seems to be a very powerful ability. I recently witnessed a level one monk PC almost singlehanded own a 9th level fighter npc using this ability combined with flurry of blows. Could someone explain how this was possible, or is it possible they were using the ability wrong.

[Stux]

I don't see how he could have won unless the level 9 was ridiculously horribly under optimised.

Are we assuming that the level 1 monk is Human so he can have Combat Expertise and Improved Trip? Because if he doesn't then every trip attempt is provoking an AoO from the level 9, which will of course be crippling.

Best case scenario with a trip is you knock someone prone. The monk at level 1 only has 2 attacks in a flurry, so we assume somehow the first attack is a successful trip and he has one attack left and maybe hits for 1d6 + Str damage. Not that impressive if you are trying to take down a level 9.

On the level 9's turn getting up would provoke an AoO from the monk, which he could use to trip again. But honestly he needn't bother standing. Sure there is a -4 to melee attacks while prone, but with 8 levels of BAB ahead of the monk this won't be an issue. He can just lie on the floor and attack the monk.

Honestly even an unarmed, unarmored commoner would struggle a little at level 9 to lose against that. But if the level 9 has a melee weapon and a character class? Maybe with a hilarious streak of crit misses, but short of that I can't see it happening.

[Zeromage1]

yeah what was happening was that the fighter kept trying to get up and kept getting tripped again.

[Psyren]

As Stux said the fighter can simply attack from the ground. Also he can try to stand up twice per turn using both his move and standard actions, but if the monk is that good at tripping I'd just stay down.

The problem might be the fighter's CMD - were you calculating it correctly? Remember that some AC bonuses, like dodge and deflection, count towards it, as well as both his Str and Dex modifiers.

[Zeromage1]

As Stux said the fighter can simply attack from the ground. Also he can try to stand up twice per turn using both his move and standard actions, but if the monk is that good at tripping I'd just stay down.

The problem might be the fighter's CMD - were you calculating it correctly? Remember that some AC bonuses, like dodge and deflection, count towards it, as well as both his Str and Dex modifiers.

I wasn't playing, only watching, so I don't know the details exactly, but I was just curious if there was a scenario this could happen because it seemed really bizarre that that could happen. But with the fighter constantly trying to get up it makes sense now.

[Stux]

I wasn't playing, only watching, so I don't know the details exactly, but I was just curious if there was a scenario this could happen because it seemed really bizarre that that could happen. But with the fighter constantly trying to get up it makes sense now.

It looks likely that the scenario was 'the level 9 was played very badly' haha. But without more details we can't know for sure what went on.

[Karoht]

Stunlock/Triplock is a thing.
CMB check VS Opponent CMD. CMD is a static number (opponent does not get a save or an opposed roll) and operates much like a skill check DC. If the Monk can produce a number high enough the trip is successful. I'm curious how the Monk reliably produced such a number, but there it is.
CMB = BAB + Str bonus (unless you have a feat to replace Strength with Dexterity or something) +D20 roll result.
CMD = BAB + Str bonus + Dex bonus + 10.
Average fighter in full plate is going to have a low dex (lets give him a +1 bonus) and a high strength (lets just assume 20 for easy math, so +5) for 9+5+1+10 = 25. A Monk with high strength is going to be at a disadvantage, but it is doable. BAB 6 (7 if part of a Flurry, which they can indeed do) Strength 18 gives a +4, that's 10, so 15+ on D20 beats that CMD. Oh, and I think they can replace any melee attack with a Trip if I'm not mistaken. Could have relied on 'fishing' for some luck.
Mind you that math would be if they were equal level. Level 1 Monk? Totally relying on nat 20's. I'm wondering if that fighter was 9th level, or if there were other NPC levels involved like Commoner or something.

It takes a Full Round Action to get up without provoking an AoO.
Also, if I recall correctly Trip is one of the maneuvers that can be used as part of an AoO, so even if the Fighter takes a Move Action to stand up, he can still be knocked down again.

Also, while prone (knocked down), the Fighter takes negatives to his AC, which means he takes negatives to his CMD. And since the AoO happens before he can stand (or be un-prone), he still has the penalty when he tries to stand up as anything other than a Full Round Action. In other words, once the Fighter is down, it is easier to keep him down.

INB4 complaints about Monk or Trip being OP.

The Fighter can do the same. But requires the same feats (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip) or takes an AoO every time he tries. The Fighter COULD just full-attack from prone, but this is not a great tactic.

[Nirhael]

Not familiar with PF but in 3.5 an AoO is applied before the action of whatever's getting AoOed, meaning you can't perma-trip someone since they're already on the ground when you try.

That fighter can just try to stand up, take a hit from the Monk, stand up and bash the Monk's face in with a Standard Action.

[Raezeman]

are you sure you get another trip attempt on the attack of opportunity from the guy standing up? Is it not like the attack resolving before the guy actually standing up, meaning he get's the AC penalty for being prone, but no new trip attempt? (This is how i remember from 3.5, but could be changed in pathfinder)

[Nirhael]

Went to check PF AoO rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity) just to make sure.

That scenario shouldn't be possible, sounds like someone doesn't know the rules or isn't playing by them, tripping someone who's already prone isn't going to do much and won't prevent them from standing up.

[Stux]

Went to check PF AoO rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity) just to make sure.

That scenario shouldn't be possible, sounds like someone doesn't know the rules or isn't playing by them, tripping someone who's already prone isn't going to do much and won't prevent them from standing up.

I think there is an element of interpretation here to be honest (unless there is an FAQ?).

It says it interrupts their turn, but it doesn't explicitly state it interrupts the action. Rather the 'flow of actions'. I could definitely see that being legitimately read as you complete the stand, then the interrupting AoO happens, then the character continues with their turn.

[Karoht]

You're on the ground. You start to try and get back to your feet. You're kicked, shoved, your legs and arms are knocked out from under you, you're stomped on in the back of the head.
Do you get up that action? Likely no.

However, as someone mentioned, you can take the Standard to try and get up, eat the AoO (the opponent could choose to ignore it but unlikely), then use the Move action to get up instead.

(Unless the Monk has Combat Reflexes as well, but at level 1 this is unlikely)

[stack]

Maneuver master monk can get improved trip without combat expertise. Max dex, toss in agile maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat) and fury's fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat)to get double dex to trips. Won't be able to HURT anything, but you rock at trips from very early on, level 1 for human if I recall.

Flurry of maneuvers then lets you trip twice per round, so you have a good chance of making the check.

20 dex makes your trip check 1d20+11 (5 dex + 5 dex +1 monk level, unless you don't allow attribute bonuses to stack like this, not everyone likes that errata). A lvl 9 fighter npc with say 18 STR would have a CMD of around 10+4 STR+8 BAB = 22. So the monk makes it on an 11 or better, with two chances per round. Still stupid play on the fighter's part.

[Stux]

(Unless the Monk has Combat Reflexes as well, but at level 1 this is unlikely)

And if they do then chances are they haven't managed to fit Improved Trip in to their build, making it all a bit moot!

[Psyren]

Note that if the fighter's CMD is really that bad, taking two actions to stand is a bad idea for him. Even if he succeeds, he's wasted his turn and the monk can then use his actions to drop the fighter all over again.

If the monk is that good at tripping (and without more information on their builds we can't really be sure how good) then fighting from the ground is likely to be his best bet.

[Karoht]

Note that if the fighter's CMD is really that bad, taking two actions to stand is a bad idea for him. Even if he succeeds, he's wasted his turn and the monk can then use his actions to drop the fighter all over again.

If the monk is that good at tripping (and without more information on their builds we can't really be sure how good) then fighting from the ground is likely to be his best bet.
Agreed. This was probably the figher's best option in this situation.

[Zeromage1]

Trip seems VERY powerful.

[Psyren]

Trip seems VERY powerful.

It's not. For the vast majority of monsters, CMD rises extremely quickly, and a dedicated tripper will need feats, buffs and magic items just to keep up.

It's stronger against unbuffed humanoids, just like any other combat maneuver, but they typically aren't much of a challenge physically anyway.

[stack]

Trip seems VERY powerful.
And then everything starts to fly and you want a new character.

[Barstro]

are you sure you get another trip attempt on the attack of opportunity from the guy standing up? Is it not like the attack resolving before the guy actually standing up, meaning he get's the AC penalty for being prone, but no new trip attempt? (This is how i remember from 3.5, but could be changed in pathfinder)

I recall asking the question before. From what I recall (barring other feats or special attacks);
Getting up causes an Attack of Opportunity
The Attack of Opportunity is resolved BEFORE the player gets up
Since the player is still prone, he cannot be tripped
Ergo; you cannot use Trip on that Attack of Opportunity.

While I think the real world works differently, and I entered the conversation with the thought that you could trip someone trying to stand, I recall being quite convinced that I was wrong, and the above scenario forbidding a new Trip is correct.

[Big Fau]

And then everything starts to fly and you want a new character.

At least in 3.5 tripping a flying opponent causes them to stall, which (if they're low enough to the ground) ends up with them being prone anyway.

[Karoht]

Trip seems VERY powerful.
It's terribly not powerful. If the trip is unsuccessful, it's an attack which could have potentially hit and dealt damage.

As CR rises, CMD gets really high, extremely quickly. It's quite difficult for a PC to keep up without absurd amounts of Strength, and that is if you are a high BAB class. Even though the feats add few bonuses, as does anything that increases your hit bonuses, creatures strength increases so much it very quickly outstrips what most PC's can do.

Trip is really easy to negate. Anything with more than 2 legs gets a bonus to CMD, flying outright negates it, pretty sure Burrow/Earthglide does too. What's more, there are plenty of creatures that don't care if you knock them down, they'll just attack from prone and still be quite lethal.

As far as manuevers go, Bullrush and Overrun are still likely to be effective into higher levels, but high CMD's are still an issue.

[Eldaran]

At least in 3.5 tripping a flying opponent causes them to stall, which (if they're low enough to the ground) ends up with them being prone anyway.

In PF flying creatures are immune to trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Trip).

[Psyren]

Note however that in PF, you can bring down fliers simply by damaging them repeatedly and forcing repeated fly checks. This goes better for creatures with less than average flight, size penalties and dex penalties.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The fighter's CMD shouldn't have been that bad... the NPC should have had
10 + his base attack bonus, + his strength modifier + his dexterity modifier for a CMD. Presuming 16 strength, average dexterity and no items that grant a deflection bonus a CMD of 22.
That's a tall order for a 1st level monk to overcome, not without a lot of luck.

I don't see how the monk's CMB could have done the job at level one. NOW if he was mistakenly using his CMD that could give him enough.(monks get really high CMD's because they get there wisdom modifier and monk AC bonus to it.).

With a maneuver master archtype and presuming 16 strength he could have taken improved trip at 1st level as a monk bonus feat and have a CMB(while tripping) of +6 before flurrying.

[stack]

The fighter's CMD shouldn't have been that bad... the NPC should have had
10 + his base attack bonus, + his strength modifier + his dexterity modifier for a CMD.
That's a tall order for a 1st level monk to overcome.

I don't see how the monk's CMB could have done the job at level one. NOW if he was mistakenly using his CMD that could give him enough.(monks get really high CMD's because they get there wisdom modifier and monk AC bonus to it.).

My math had the fighter with dex 0, which I forgot to state. If the dex stacking is allowed and the archetype is used, it works.

[Spore]

Trip seems VERY powerful.

Summarize what makes trip not viable: Flying. Anything with several pairs of feet. Anything without feet. Anything amorphous.

A dedicated tripper CAN trip a demon spider with +40ish to CMD vs. trips but that's entirely luck based.


Trip seems to be a very powerful ability. I recently witnessed a level one monk PC almost singlehanded own a 9th level fighter npc using this ability combined with flurry of blows. Could someone explain how this was possible, or is it possible they were using the ability wrong.

Just tossing in some random numbers: Str 18 Monk NPC vs. Str 22/Dex 10 Fighter 9:

CMB for the monk: 1 (Monk level) + 4 (Strength) + 2 (Improved Trip) + 2 (Trip Weapon like a Temple Sword) -2 (Flurry) = +8 with a masterwork weapon.

CMD for the fighter: 9 (Fighter BAB) + 6 (Strength) + 10 = 25

So on 17-20 the monk is able to trip the fighter. Note that Flurry with Maneuvers is only possible with the Maneuver Master Archetype. Apparently trip can substitute an attack.

A decent leveled monk could disable a fighter easily:

CMB for Grapples on my monk 9 with Improved and Greater Grapple is 9 (Level) + 4 (Strength) + 4 (Greater Grapple) + 1 (Amulet of Mighty Fists) = 18 so I'd need a 7 to grapple.

[Psyren]

Note that Flurry with Maneuvers is only possible with the Maneuver Master Archetype.

While the rest of your post is fine, this is actually false; some maneuvers (including Trip) can be done in place of any attack, even in PF. You can full-attack, flurry and even AoO with a series of Trips just fine.

[Spore]

While the rest of your post is fine, this is actually false; some maneuvers (including Trip) can be done in place of any attack, even in PF. You can full-attack, flurry and even AoO with a series of Trips just fine.

I thought maneuver were ALL standard actions.

[Psyren]

I thought maneuver were ALL standard actions.

Nope - only some (like grapple) were changed to that, others were not.

The default is actually "in place of any attack unless noted otherwise."


Performing a Combat Maneuver

When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.

Trip specifically allows you to replace attacks with it:


Trip

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

[Karoht]

AoO's with maneuvers is prohibited at the table I play with. It's a shame, because it is a silly houserule, and one I greatly disagree with.

Also, Truestrike's bonus also applies to CMB. For when you really really need to win a grapple, or deal an epicly powerful Bullrush (and have the set-up time to make it happen). Wand of Truestrike costs very little, and is constantly underestimated. 750gp, the whole party can be very very awesome at 1 maneuver in the opening round of combat. Which can be extremely useful if you want to non-lethal capture someone/something.

[Person_Man]

RE: Combat Maneuvers

1) Most Combat Maneuvers inflict an Attack of Opportunity on the creature that initiates them. Therefore, characters generally don't use them unless they have the "Improved Whatever" Feat. (Although I have seen them attempted with the Improved Feat in niche situations where your enemy is Flat Footed and can't make AoO, or the initiator has a reach weapon and the target does not). Thus a character who uses a specific Combat Maneuver has almost always invested character resources (Feats, sometimes class abilities, sometimes magic items) to do that thing. Players should generally be good at things they invest resources in.

2) Most Combat Maneuvers are a Standard Action. So in most cases, you're giving up iterative attacks to use that Maneuver (without a very heavy investment in other crunch that triggers a Maneuver). So it's generally not a good option to use a Combat Maneuver above ECL 6ish+. Though it is worth mentioning that Trip, Disarm, and Sunder are attack actions. Disarm and Sunder are highly situational, which means that in most cases Trip is indeed the best Combat Maneuver available in Pathfinder.

3) CMD is generally a higher number then your average CMB result, and it tends to scale more quickly. So on average, a Combat Maneuver is going to fail.

4) Having said all that, the key to 3.5/PF combat is to have multiple strong options, and to know when it's appropriate to use each option. Don't put all of your eggs into one basket and spam it. Use Trip against low Str/Dex enemies. Don't expect it to work against other enemies.

[stack]

The key to using maneuvers is to be a magus with a wand of true strike and the wand wielder arcana.

[Big Fau]

The key to using maneuvers is to be a magus with a wand of true strike and the wand wielder arcana.

Because mundanes aren't allowed to be better than casters at anything.

[Spore]

1) Most Combat Maneuvers inflict an Attack of Opportunity on the creature that initiates them. Therefore, characters generally don't use them unless they have the "Improved Whatever" Feat. (Although I have seen them attempted with the Improved Feat in niche situations where your enemy is Flat Footed and can't make AoO, or the initiator has a reach weapon and the target does not). Thus a character who uses a specific Combat Maneuver has almost always invested character resources (Feats, sometimes class abilities, sometimes magic items) to do that thing. Players should generally be good at things they invest resources in.

I agree. I would significantly reduce the feat tax on maneuvers since they make the gameplay more creative. Ignore Combat Expertise as prereq and give 2 maneuvers for one feat slot. Steal and Dirty Trick, Disarm and Trip, Grapple and Bullrush as feat packs.


2) Most Combat Maneuvers are a Standard Action. So in most cases, you're giving up iterative attacks to use that Maneuver (without a very heavy investment in other crunch that triggers a Maneuver). So it's generally not a good option to use a Combat Maneuver above ECL 6ish+. Though it is worth mentioning that Trip, Disarm, and Sunder are attack actions. Disarm and Sunder are highly situational, which means that in most cases Trip is indeed the best Combat Maneuver available in Pathfinder.

I disagree. Grappling a caster or enemy fighter with a huge weapon is a huge deal if it is the only threat on the board. If you play cleverly grappling Fire Giants is possible. (There, only the tier problems play a role because I HAD to be a huge bear with massive support of a cleric to even come close to the CMD).


3) CMD is generally a higher number then your average CMB result, and it tends to scale more quickly. So on average, a Combat Maneuver is going to fail.

Sadly, yes. It scales in the same speed (with BAB) but the second stat that is added to CMD (Dex), the size bonusses and immunities (number of legs, amorphous etc.) along with the heavy feat tax make maneuvers unattractive and mundane fighting rather dull.

"What do you do?" "I hit it with my stick for 40 damage." Yay -,-


4) Having said all that, the key to 3.5/PF combat is to have multiple strong options, and to know when it's appropriate to use each option. Don't put all of your eggs into one basket and spam it. Use Trip against low Str/Dex enemies. Don't expect it to work against other enemies.

Most maneuvers are terrible against BAB/Str/Dex users. That's were maneuvers fall apart. Many big creatures have high Str AND Dex as well as moderate BAB (as well as many HD) and you're just wasting your turn to try and be fancy. Maneuvers are a niche thing, I would love them to be keyed off of Dex by default. Dex characters are often not able to penetrate DR in a meaningful way and thus like a way to weaken the creature by applying a trick.

I can't see how stuff like Disarm, Dirty Trick or Steal are maneuvers based on strength. Sure, just hitting a hand that holds a weapon is good but having a real maneuver to disarm someone is more likely. Or a Steal maneuver keyed off of Str, really?