[PF] Ridiculously high Charisma

[Zeromage1]

Are there any guidelines for how someone (PCs or NPCs) would react to someone with a REALLY high charisma? Like 25-35 range?

[Spore]

I would go for admiration or envy.

[Zeromage1]

To what degree? I mean a 18 Charisma is someone I picture as insanely beautiful to begin with. Would a 27 be to the point of seeing a goddess?

[Ketiara]

To what degree? I mean a 18 Charisma is someone I picture as insanely beautiful to begin with. Would a 27 be to the point of seeing a goddess?

Probably in a World where cha was only beauty.

[Croix]

Charisma is a Mental stat that tells how well they they can get along in conversation. Looks can add or take from someone's Charisma, yes, but it's more of a side effect on that person's Charisma. If you so choose, you can use the Epic ruling for all Charisma based checks that character would take.

In a nut shell Charisma just takes you from Joe Shmoe to this guy:
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e8/ba/dc/e8badc1048e39304cce9397ae6ed5645.jpg

[Segev]

While physical appearance can be a PART of one's Charisma, it's not the sum total thereof.

High Charisma means that you are either easily likable or that you have such a strong personality that people get swept up in it over their rational judgment. You're intimidating, irresistibly friendly, impossible to ignore, and generally the center of attention by sheer force of your personality and presence.

Inhumanly high Charisma, as a general rule, would tend to be noticed with even the slightest effort, would have people naturally tend to assume he's the sort of person they want to be around (whether that means they think he's important, think he's their "kind of guy," or find them romantically interesting), or would cause people to feel their presence as an oppressive force. How this manifests is up to the player, to a degree, and how he plays the character.

But NPCs should notice when he walks into a room. They should think he's naturally the guy in charge of a group that appears to travel with him. They should be - depending on the nature of this character's charisma - either fawning, eager to impress, or awed to the point of nervousness. If he gives an indication of how he expects people to react, they will typically naturally feel they should react that way (usually represented by Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, or Intimidate on the high-Cha person's part).

If it's due to beauty, it's probably tied strongly to first impressions. If it's due to having an imposing bearing, it likely results in people giving him space even in crowds, and not interfering with his activities unless he calls them out. If it's due to gregariousness, he'll likely have strangers acting like bosom pals within minutes.

Whether it's awesome fear or sheer joy at his presence, he'll wrap crowds around his fingers with relative ease, and is the sort who can command tribute for the pleasure of his company or out of fear that he might be displeased.

Inhumanly high charisma means people react to you in the manner fitting your bearing.

[AaronFaeBane]

Probably in a World where cha was only beauty.

Yikes I can see this is going to be a tough crowd to ask newbie questions in without getting sarcastic answers.

[AaronFaeBane]

To what degree? I mean a 18 Charisma is someone I picture as insanely beautiful to begin with. Would a 27 be to the point of seeing a goddess?


If the high Charisma is the result of the person's beauty (despite what people here say, a high Charisma COULD BE the result of just beauty in some cases) then yeah I'd say the person would be amazing to look at at the level of a goddess maybe.

There are charismatic people who people are attracted to because of their beauty and having nothing to do with their personalities.

[Croix]

Yikes I can see this is going to be a tough crowd to ask newbie questions in without getting sarcastic answers.

The internet is a land of trolls.

[roko10]

The internet is a land of trolls.

And NPC's lurkers, dungeons fanfic archives, dragons hackers...

Come to think about it, the Internet would make a kickass 3.5 campaign setting

[Ravens_cry]

No rules, but such a score would give you a decent native Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate score, even with little or no training (ranks in the above skills). No reason you can't use the rules for said skills to determine the reactions.

[Slipperychicken]

Really charismatic people are often described as having "magnetism", in that they seem to naturally draw people toward them, and they seem to radiate confidence, competence, and trust with every step they take.

Such people-skills and radiance aren't as dependent on beauty as you'd think, and often you'll find famous comedians, politicians, entertainers, and speakers who aren't much to look at (or are sometimes truly unpleasant to behold), but are nonetheless superb at networking, performing, delivering speeches, rousing crowds, feeling out social situations, and getting people to side with them.

Also, it would be really nice if 3.5 had reaction rolls.

[The Insanity]

Some adventure modules use Charisma for something like a reaction. In one part of the Savage Tides campaign, when talking to Malcanthet, she chooses the PC with the highest Cha to give him her "blessing".
Other than that I don't think there's anything like that. Well, Leadership or similar ability might count.

[Spore]

Charisma is NOT beauty. I wanted to link a picture of the "faceoff Joker" but I fear that is graphic violence. Google it for yourself and remember how charismatic and still deranged and ugly the Joker can be.

[beowulf_gr]

They should think he's naturally the guy in charge of a group that appears to travel with him.

Unless he's a bard. Then he's certainly NOT in charge. :tongue:

[INoKnowNames]

Charisma is NOT beauty.

I believe you mean "not primarily".


Charisma (Cha)

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Sure, there are a heck of a lot of creatures that are ugly as sin and even capable of wildly driving insane those unlucky enough to look upon their visage, but in the grand scheme of things, Charisma embodies how creatures are perceived. How one looks and whether or not one looks "good" does factor a bit into that (which (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater) explains (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants) a (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy) few (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoYay) things (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnintentionallySympathetic)).


I wanted to link a picture of the "faceoff Joker" but I fear that is graphic violence. Google it for yourself and remember how charismatic and still deranged and ugly the Joker can be.

For the record, I did google that picture. And quite frankly, I wouldn't consider him Charismatic as much as I would consider it justifiable to Sanctum Spell Greater Arcane Fusion (7th Level Slot = Sanctum Spell Greater Arcane Fusion, 4th Level Slot = Orb of Fire) him away until he stops breathing until his ashes burn until his molecules are vaporized. For the good of all that is holy, I would not google that if you found the Dark Knight's Joker to be at all creepy in appearance. This is 10x worse.

My stance on Charisma is that it depends entirely on the character. Someone with high charisma can pretty much make themselves seem however they want to if so chosen, be it terrifying, glorious, alluring, delightful, or any other direction they would take it, and those that don't still turn heads without trying to simply unconsciously. I feel like awe of some type is pretty much a given once you start beating Charisma that is past the 20-22 range, given that is about the highest a creature can start without.

Random notes: A Nymph only has a Charisma of 19. An Angel (Astral Deva) is sitting on one of 20. A Succubus is rocking a 26. And I think the highest stated Charisma amount I could find was a 48 from one of the Goddesses of Beauty in one of the Deities books. No real point to these, just something I felt like bringing up.

[BWR]

Short answer: there are no real guidelines to how people react to high Charisma. I just look at their modifier and add 10 and compare that to various Charisma based DCs to determine the base impression. This doesn't replace an actual skill roll but eg. someone with a Charisma modifier of10 (Charisma 30) is ridiculously influential. Your average person is going to believe anything they say, agree to most anything they suggest, think they are excellent actors, fall for any bluff, etc.
Any time a roll isn't called for, I'll assume that this is the default roll to influence people.

Charisma is sort of like gravity - it attracts surrounding bodies and influences their movement. People tend to go along with the suggestions of high Charisma people, even if they have misgivings or dislike the target or really know better.
'Ridiculously' high Charisma people tend to just sweep everyone along with their plans almost without the subjects realizing it. Charisma is sheer presence. They walk into a room and everyone notices them. They talk and everyone listens. They move about and everyone is riveted to their every movement. They suggest everybody at the royal ball go skinny dipping and half the court ends up in the punch fountain (now I have to try this in a game).

[Tragak]

Unless he's a bard. Then he's certainly NOT in charge. :tongue: You've never read Our Little Adventure, have you? :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

How would one adjudicate a very high Charisma (30+) and very low mental stats otherwise (6- Int/Wis). Most descriptions of Charisma I've read require at least some cleverness or manipulation skills to work; or at least the ability to inspire admiration or awe... something hard when you are in the drooling range of the mental stat pool.

[BWR]

How would one adjudicate a very high Charisma (30+) and very low mental stats otherwise (6- Int/Wis). Most descriptions of Charisma I've read require at least some cleverness or manipulation skills to work; or at least the ability to inspire admiration or awe... something hard when you are in the drooling range of the mental stat pool.

No problem - one of my bosses had high Charisma and fairly low Int/Wis.
They are very good at convincing people. They are good at looking like they know what they're doing and convincing you that when they make mistakes it's not their fault. Even when you know better they can somehow right then and there make you give them another chance. Even if what they say sounds stupid or impractical (or would sound so if presented by another person), they manage to infect you with their particular worldview so you say to yourself "well, why not do it their way?"

While ranks in the various Charisma based skills represent training and ability to think things through, I've always treated the raw Charisma as something a bit more ephemeral and indefinable. An innate quality that allows them to manipulate others. Like cats: most other creatures that tear up your furniture, vomit on the floor, never let you prepare or eat food in peace, demand that you wait on them hand a foot and brutally torture and kill smaller animals for fun would be considered unpleasant and not a good pet. But because cats are so darn charismatic people just say "d'awwww whose a cute kitty?" and worship the little buggers.

[Slipperychicken]

How would one adjudicate a very high Charisma (30+) and very low mental stats otherwise (6- Int/Wis). Most descriptions of Charisma I've read require at least some cleverness or manipulation skills to work; or at least the ability to inspire admiration or awe... something hard when you are in the drooling range of the mental stat pool.

You don't need an excess of brainpower to do those things. If you've spent much time watching middle/high school kids socializing, it's easy to see how an idiot can play politics and advance herself/himself in a social hierarchy.

Also, like BWR said, charismatic idiots can do surprisingly well at convincing people they know what they're talking about.

[Naanomi]

You don't need an excess of brainpower to do those things. If you've spent much time watching middle/high school kids socializing, it's easy to see how an idiot can play politics and advance herself/himself in a social hierarchy.

Also, charismatic idiots can do surprisingly well at convincing people they know what they're talking about.
I'm a teacher, I know... and that works great for the 9-6 INT range... but kids who fall a few standard deviations below normal cognitive ability can almost never draw anything but pity from peers.

Low Wis, I will admit, isn't as much of an issue. The world is build on Charismatic people with no common sense ;)

[BWR]

Well, there you have it: for the lower than 6 crowd, everyone knows that what they are proposing is stupid and useless, but out of pity or because the subject is so darn cute, they go along with it anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

Heck, there is plenty of people who skate by on manipulation and 'low cunning' rather than actual intelligence.

[LordBiscuit]

How would one adjudicate a very high Charisma (30+) and very low mental stats otherwise (6- Int/Wis). Most descriptions of Charisma I've read require at least some cleverness or manipulation skills to work; or at least the ability to inspire admiration or awe... something hard when you are in the drooling range of the mental stat pool.

Those people would probably have ranks in their profession, so while they might not be the most mentally gifted of persons, they learn enough about the subject to weave it into their speeches. Or even the act of reading something enough so that they remember the knowledge, provided they understand the fundimental basics of said knowledge, will allow them to exert pressence.

Personally though, even a basic int or wisdom stat of 6 is capable of understanding things. Just the knowledge doesn't come to them as naturally as those with better mental stats. The game frankly doesn't make you play anyone who doesn't understand the concept of the adventure and I would probably prevent anyone from attempting to immick the unfortunate. I don't find the excuse for idiocy amusing in the slightest, since I know people with the condiction.

I would probably compare that to someone like Lei Bei. He never struck me as a immensely mentally gifted individual, that task he saved for his generals and advisors, however he understood exactly how to talk to people to remain on their good side and make followers constantly flock to him. Good Chasima is the ability to convince commoners to your merit, though ultimately you need actual experience (e.g. Skillpoints) to make the most of your ability to appeal to a person's better (or worse) senses.

[Naanomi]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to mock individuals with cognative disabilities. Sped teacher after all.

The specific character was a Sorcerer with Int 4, Wis 6, Cha 18+; a blaster spell list, and a Celestial Raven familiar who did the talking and kept him from making innocent mistakes. Only skills were UMD and Concentration

[Ravens_cry]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to mock individuals with cognative disabilities. Sped teacher after all.

The specific character was a Sorcerer with Int 4, Wis 6, Cha 18+; a blaster spell list, and a Celestial Raven familiar who did the talking and kept him from making innocent mistakes. Only skills were UMD and Concentration
Heh, that's an awesome character idea, as long as the rest of the players are OK with it. How did the stats get so low though? Luck of the roll?

[Naanomi]

Heh, that's an awesome character idea, as long as the rest of the players are OK with it. How did the stats get so low though? Luck of the roll?
Stats were roll and place 3d6, then turn your highest to an 18. My rolls were amongst the worst of my gaming history.

[mucat]

The specific character was a Sorcerer with Int 4, Wis 6, Cha 18+; a blaster spell list, and a Celestial Raven familiar who did the talking and kept him from making innocent mistakes. Only skills were UMD and Concentration
A character like that might have a messianic air that left people regarding him as a prophet or oracle. If some of the things he says seem a bit off, they would assume he transcends the world, when in truth, he just can't quite understand it.

[Gabe the Bard]

Charisma is just one of many factors to consider when handling NPC reactions. If you're an orc with really high charisma and you're talking to a dwarf whose family was annihilated by orc bandits, you're still a horrible bloodthirsty orc as far as the dwarf is concerned until you convince him otherwise. The high charisma might just intimidate him or cause him to be in awe of your presence if he thought you were some sort of orc warlord. That initial reaction might also depend on what you're wearing, like if you're wearing shining full plate versus some ragged padded armor. If for some reason you’re orc became a cleric of Moradin and is carrying a holy symbol, that might help you befriend the dwarf or cause him to hate you even more if he thinks your character took it from a dead dwarf cleric as a trophy.

[The Insanity]

Heh, that's an awesome character idea, as long as the rest of the players are OK with it.
Why wouldn't they? :smallconfused:

[The Oni]

I ran a villain with 10 wisdom, 7 Int, and 20 Charisma once - he was a disgraced noble, and basically useless because he found out his force of personality and good looks were enough to get him anything his sizeable accounts couldn't; he had access to the best education but never bothered with any of them. He could talk his way out of a dragon's mouth (or into her trousers) with natural talent and BS, which would later be revealed (after his disgrace) to a literal Reality Distortion Field generated by the fact that he was an Aberration-Blooded Sorcerer! In a friendly conversation he looks like a young Steve Jobs; in combat he looks like Slenderman.

[Brendanicus]

If your character has 6 int and 20+ cha, people will not initially see her/him as an idiot at least until (s)he opens her/his mouth. Hell, your character may even give off an unwarranted air of intelligence and competence at first glance.

[Ravens_cry]

Why wouldn't they? :smallconfused:
Because childishly simple characters with big personalities can translate into Small Annoying Creatures if played badly.

[MonochromeTiger]

Charisma is NOT beauty.

but looks DO often have some minor part in charisma. if they didn't then spells and conditions that cause physical deformities would never have an effect on charisma, which they do quite often.

personally while charisma does fall into the heading of "mental stat" it works on ALL means of influencing others including looks which are distinctly physical. both my groups argue that it should be considered a "social" stat rather than a physical or mental one due to that fact. there are multiple ways someone can be charismatic, you could be good with words, you could be too threatening to disagree with, you could be so hard to dislike that people just find themselves agreeing with you, OR you could rely on looks (a very old and stupidly effective way of manipulating people).

as such depending on the way the character is set up charisma very well COULD be beauty, if that's the thing they use to convince others then it works. and a direct quote from the ability scores section of d20pfsrd: "Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. "

[Dimers]

Why wouldn't they? :smallconfused:

It can easily become what English-lit classes call a "grotesque" -- a ridiculous one-dimensional parody instead of a character. Some groups want all PCs to be characters with depth; others don't.

I've run with almost exactly the example character (sorc, low Wis, low Int, plentiful Cha) suggesting fireballs every other round or so, but since we weren't taking the game oh-so-seriously and the player wasn't being a numbskull, it worked fine. In another game, a jerk player inflicted his character's stupidity on the group for spotlight time in a game that should have been dark-n-gritty IC, and that was pretty detrimental.

EDIT: As to the "beauty" debate, I simply ignore that line of text. Beauty standards vary widely from one culture to the next, never mind between species, never mind reality itself. Racoons, aliens, elves and Eskimos disagree how attractive your Kenyan human looks. And I don't think magical power favors the sorcerer because he's so cuuuuuute. The closest I can come to agreement is that charismatic people are more likely to be viewed as attractive after some degree of interaction. But so are kind people, and so are good listeners, at least IRL.

[Naanomi]

The character wasn't too 'silly', though I can see how it would end up that way pretty easily. I tried to play it slightly tragic... friendly and trusting to a fault, but prone to fits of magical rage; so much power, so little understanding of the harm I could (and did) do. In the end, from an RP perspective, it was more that I was playing a Celestial Raven desperately babysitting a powderkeg and keep it pointed in the right direction.

For what it was worth, we generally said the Charisma manifested as being inherently trustworthy and people couldn't help being friendly to me; rather than the 'overhwelming leadership aura!' that Charisma can turn into.

[MonochromeTiger]

EDIT: As to the "beauty" debate, I simply ignore that line of text. Beauty standards vary widely from one culture to the next, never mind between species, never mind reality itself. Racoons, aliens, elves and Eskimos disagree how attractive your Kenyan human looks. And I don't think magical power favors the sorcerer because he's so cuuuuuute. The closest I can come to agreement is that charismatic people are more likely to be viewed as attractive after some degree of interaction. But so are kind people, and so are good listeners, at least IRL.

perfectly respectable answer, simply stating that by rules charisma can in fact cover appearance. also, magic power really wouldn't favor the sorcerer because they're cute, it favors them because, by class fluff, they happened to luck into a magically powerful heritage. for sorcerers their magic is natural to them, it is a birthright and not something they went out and trained for, and the need to attach an ability score to their casting is a strange mechanics restriction to that (possibly an attempt to keep them from being the only non stat-dependent caster).

[OldTrees1]

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Therefore each of these facets increases as charisma increases.

As their force of personality and persuasiveness increase, people become more and more willing to obey/agree with anything they say.

As their personal magnetism and ability to lead increase, more and more people desire the honor of being allowed to serve them.

As their physical attractiveness increases, they look more and more beautiful.

Eventually each of these 3 categories would become god-like.

[The Insanity]

Because childishly simple characters with big personalities can translate into Small Annoying Creatures if played badly.
What I would call childish is not letting me play what I want because you don't like it.

[BWR]

Sorcerers with familiars who are smarter than they are is a recurring theme, I see. We've had a couple in our games.

[LordBiscuit]

Re: [PF] Ridiculously high Charisma
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to mock individuals with cognative disabilities. Sped teacher after all.

The specific character was a Sorcerer with Int 4, Wis 6, Cha 18+; a blaster spell list, and a Celestial Raven familiar who did the talking and kept him from making innocent mistakes. Only skills were UMD and Concentration
Hehe fair enough. I wasn't pointing out your example exactly, since you made it into a workable concept about a person dealing with powers greater then they understand. I just dislike characters that make being pig headed ignorient a constant source of comic relief, rather then an aspect of their being.

Reminds me of the low int, and generally charmless barbarian half orc who spoke as much as he knew. Who was charmingly streight forward in all of his engagements (6 int, 8 cha, can't remember wisdom), a man of few words, but all his phrases were really immersive..


What I would call childish is not letting me play what I want because you don't like it.

Since the DM is likely making the efforts to craft the campiagn, it seems poor taste to purposely introduce characters that are purposely silly. Though to be fair thats largely because our party is generally funny enough to end up in crazy, laugh inducing situations without having to design a character for that purpose.

I recall in a star wars themed campiagn we had to stop people from playing old characters because we kept getting old force wizards who were somehow inherently crazy. It got really tired quickly after two campiagns got ruined by crazy old men with the power of the force, so my pacience for "stupid" characters is very thin as a result.

Very different from "not smart" characters, who can often be quite charming much of the time.

[Particle_Man]

Leadership being charisma-based, I would imagine that in game the character might occasionally be pestered by people that *want* to follow him, a la The Life of Brian.

Also, Red Dwarf's Ace Rimmer comes to mind. What a guy! :smallsmile:

[Star_In_a_Sky]

Looks are, according to the rules, one more aspect of Charisma.

DMs that houserule it isn't should simply make the their players aware of it.

Everyone wins when information is clearly communicated. :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

What I would call childish is not letting me play what I want because you don't like it.
Well, as mentioned, part of the DM's job is to set the tone. If you are playing a game of My Little Pony, and you bring BlüdHoovz the Destructor to the table, that's also likely inappropriate.
Besides, think about it from a character survival perspective. Let's say you go ahead and make something that annoys the other players and their characters. At some point, their characters are going to have to make life and death decisions. If your character bugs them enough, they just might ignore the annoying man-child that got them into so much trouble over the campaign for another character.

[Shining Wrath]

While physical appearance can be a PART of one's Charisma, it's not the sum total thereof.

High Charisma means that you are either easily likable or that you have such a strong personality that people get swept up in it over their rational judgment. You're intimidating, irresistibly friendly, impossible to ignore, and generally the center of attention by sheer force of your personality and presence.

Inhumanly high Charisma, as a general rule, would tend to be noticed with even the slightest effort, would have people naturally tend to assume he's the sort of person they want to be around (whether that means they think he's important, think he's their "kind of guy," or find them romantically interesting), or would cause people to feel their presence as an oppressive force. How this manifests is up to the player, to a degree, and how he plays the character.

But NPCs should notice when he walks into a room. They should think he's naturally the guy in charge of a group that appears to travel with him. They should be - depending on the nature of this character's charisma - either fawning, eager to impress, or awed to the point of nervousness. If he gives an indication of how he expects people to react, they will typically naturally feel they should react that way (usually represented by Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, or Intimidate on the high-Cha person's part).

If it's due to beauty, it's probably tied strongly to first impressions. If it's due to having an imposing bearing, it likely results in people giving him space even in crowds, and not interfering with his activities unless he calls them out. If it's due to gregariousness, he'll likely have strangers acting like bosom pals within minutes.

Whether it's awesome fear or sheer joy at his presence, he'll wrap crowds around his fingers with relative ease, and is the sort who can command tribute for the pleasure of his company or out of fear that he might be displeased.

Inhumanly high charisma means people react to you in the manner fitting your bearing.

It should be noted that some very charismatic RL people were not that physically imposing - e.g., Napoleon. And some were - e.g., Alexander, or Richard the Lion Heart.

In D&D is a dragon beautiful? Not as a human - it's a big freakin' lizard. But their presence is overwhelming.

Charisma measures your ability to get other people to go along with your wishes - Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate; or to not notice you when you prefer to not be noticed - Disguise, Gather Information. Taking the two together, D&D charisma is your ability to control how others perceive you.

So to answer the OP question: a person with enormous charisma *gets to choose how others respond to them*.

[Star_In_a_Sky]

It should be noted that some very charismatic RL people were not that physically imposing - e.g., Napoleon. And some were - e.g., Alexander, or Richard the Lion Heart.

In D&D is a dragon beautiful? Not as a human - it's a big freakin' lizard. But their presence is overwhelming.

Charisma measures your ability to get other people to go along with your wishes - Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate; or to not notice you when you prefer to not be noticed - Disguise, Gather Information. Taking the two together, D&D charisma is your ability to control how others perceive you.

So to answer the OP question: a person with enormous charisma *gets to choose how others respond to them*.

Presuming the DM chooses to stick to the RAW, there's nothing to stop a dragon with a high charisma from being described as being eye-catching within the framework of its species. A gold dragon with immaculate scales, a black dragon that isn't deteriorated or at least has good bone structure, these are some of the ways it can be represented. With that said, that doesn't mean and in no way implies a human or other humanoid will find them sexually or romantically attractive. It just means that, with regards to one of the many aspects of that high charisma, is reflected, as per the rules, in their looks. They're at least eye-catching within the framwork of their species. Again, looks are just one aspect of charisma according to the rules. The other aspects are what you're rightfully mentioning.

But a DM is always free to houserule or handwave that away. But, if they chose to do that, they should also mention it just quickly to players so it's no big deal and everyone is on the same page. :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

Presuming the DM chooses to stick to the RAW, there's nothing to stop a dragon with a high charisma from being described as being eye-catching within the framework of its species. A gold dragon with immaculate scales, a black dragon that isn't deteriorated or at least has good bone structure, these are some of the ways it can be represented. With that said, that doesn't mean and in no way implies a human or other humanoid will find them sexually or romantically attractive. It just means that, with regards to one of the many aspects of that high charisma, is reflected, as per the rules, in their looks. They're at least eye-catching within the framwork of their species. Again, looks are just one aspect of charisma according to the rules. The other aspects are what you're rightfully mentioning.

But a DM is always free to houserule or handwave that away. But, if they chose to do that, they should also mention it just quickly to players so it's no big deal and everyone is on the same page. :smallsmile:

I think it goes further, though; if you *want* to be perceived as beautiful or sexually attractive, you have the ability to do that; but if you want to be not noticed, you have some abilities along those lines as well.

The charisma rules are another D&D simplification of reality; there ought to be penalties for going cross-species, greater penalties for going cross-type, and the possibility that things will go amazingly wrong with aberrations.