Maneuvers and Stances

[ReD_Exorcist]

So I am playing a WarBlade from ToB and what I wanted to focus on was Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon. I was reading through a guide for WarBlade though and it said I should at least be taking a few maneuvers on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. I don't know if its really essential though, So I wanted to know from someones else point of view if I should be taking some on those two. Another thing is I wanted to make sure my feats were ok. I have leap attack, Power Cleave, and Adaptive Style I think there good, But I cant decide whether I want to replace Leap Attack for Improved Sunder so I can later take Combat Brute. Seeing as how Leap Attack and Combat brute do the same thing. But Combat Brute does have other handy stuff.

[Kaje]

Take whatever you want. It's not like spells and feats where there's a few gems. You honestly cannot go wrong with maneuver selection.

[Subaru Kujo]

So I am playing a WarBlade from ToB and what I wanted to focus on was Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon. I was reading through a guide for WarBlade though and it said I should at least be taking a few maneuvers on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. I don't know if its really essential though, So I wanted to know from someones else point of view if I should be taking some on those two. Another thing is I wanted to make sure my feats were ok. I have leap attack, Power Cleave, and Adaptive Style I think there good, But I cant decide whether I want to replace Leap Attack for Improved Sunder so I can later take Combat Brute. Seeing as how Leap Attack and Combat brute do the same thing. But Combat Brute does have other handy stuff.

Combat Brute is for the follow up to the initial charge (which you open with Leap Attack). Also, Shock Trooper is a fun feat to play around with if you are going for Leap Attack anyways.

As far as the maneuvers go, you should be more than fine with that set, though some Diamond Mind doesn't suck (especially if you get the Will Save counter. Pretty much at the moment on my Hobgoblin Warblade, the net Will Save mod is almost as good as the Fort one).

[Boci]

You should be fine with stone dragon and tiger claw. Iron heart and diamond mind are strong (and so is white raven in melee heavy group), but its not that big an issue. Depends on what everyone else is playing I guess. Just check with your DM how literally he's going to interpret the "standing on ground" clause of Stone Dragon and whether that will be a problem with your play-style. Also might want to stick to tiger claw stances, as they tend to be better, and don't have the cannot move more than 5ft clause most stone dragons seem to.

Feat wise I'd drop adaptive style, its really only worth considering on a swordsage, the warblade's recovery maneuvers sould be sufficient. Leap attack allows you to jump which can be useful for dodging difficult terrain in a charge, also combat brutes uping damage works the round after you charge, not the round in which you charge. Shock trooper is better (and probably bullrush is also better than sunder), but be careful about becoming too much of an uber charger, it can cause problems for DMs.

[Amphetryon]

Stone Dragon gets the least love mostly because its focus is rather narrowly defined. It turns your Warblade into a better damage dealer, but often requires you to avoid Flying, Swimming, Burrowing, or other forms of movement during combat to get the increase. If the part of the previous sentence that follows "but" doesn't often apply in your games (or the concept you want to play doesn't care about it), Stone Dragon is fine.

Diamond Mind is good for Save boosters, unless you're focusing on it heavily for the other tricks it offers; Iron Heart is ranked so highly based largely on Iron Heart Surge (which likely needs DM adjudication) and a few specific Stances. Either option might make your Character more versatile, but that's not necessarily what you want.

[FullStop]

Well I mean the Iron heart 9th-level maneuver is pretty rad too. Given that it's a flat increase and not more dice, in my experience it is generally judged as being multiplied by critical hits, unlike something like the Mountain Hammer series.

[Boci]

Well I mean the Iron heart 9th-level maneuver is pretty rad too. Given that it's a flat increase and not more dice, in my experience it is generally judged as being multiplied by critical hits, unlike something like the Mountain Hammer series.

Pretty sure there is a clause that extra damage from maneuvres is never multiplied in a crit.

[Chronos]

First, find out how your DM is ruling Iron Heart Surge. Then, you'll probably still want to take it anyway, because almost any sensible reading still leaves it pretty useful, but you need to know just what it's useful for.

[Big Fau]

Pretty sure there is a clause that extra damage from maneuvres is never multiplied in a crit.

Most of them mention if they don't get multiplied, and extra damage dice are never multiplied.

@OP: Diamond Mind provides Moment of Perfect Mind, Greater Insightful Strike, Stance of Alacrity, Time Stands Still and Quicksilver Motion. There are other maneuvers, but those are the biggest ones you'd want. Iron Heart has Iron Heart Surge, Adamantine Hurricane, Strike of Perfect Clarity, and Iron Heart Endurance (not that important, but it isn't a bad maneuver to have).

While none of this is truly necessary, IHS, TSS, and MoPM are excellent maneuvers simply because every Warblade build can take advantage of them in some way (IHS being quite powerful, TSS for violating the action economy, and MoPM for letting you negate your normally poor Will saves).

[Bloodgruve]

I'd take at least one Iron Heart maneuver and then get Iron Heart Surge. Its just too versatile for me to pass up.

As a warblade you won't need to rely on your feats to have some fun combat options but like others said Combat Brute and Shock Trooper are both nice to have.

GL
Blood~

[Boci]

Most of them mention if they don't get multiplied, and extra damage dice are never multiplied.

Page 43: "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

That extends to fixed damage strikes.

[Darrin]

Page 43: "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

That extends to fixed damage strikes.

No. Extra damage means bonus damage expressed as dice, hence the reference to sneak attack. If a bonus is expressed as a fixed integer, then it's considered a damage modifier, which is multiplied on a crit.

Same with sneak attack. Craven damage is multiplied on a crit, but extra sneak attack dice aren't.

[TuggyNE]

No. Extra damage means bonus damage expressed as dice, hence the reference to sneak attack.

The terminology does not seem to be consistently used; celestial and fiendish creatures' Smites, as well as (Greater) Weapon Specialization, call themselves extra damage, despite being flat damage bonuses. :smallsigh:

[HunterOfJello]

The terminology does not seem to be consistently used; celestial and fiendish creatures' Smites, as well as (Greater) Weapon Specialization, call themselves extra damage, despite being flat damage bonuses. :smallsigh:

The terminology isn't consistent and it's often contradictory. You can't depend on the original source material (namely Core) for the definition. You're always better off going back to the Rules Compendium or the SRD for proper information. If you want things related to monsters, then you're better off with the MM3 or MM5 than the original MM.

Craven continues to work with sneak attacks because the Rules Compendium defined Precision Damage as not being multiplied during a critical hit under the condition that it was specifically expressed as "extra dice of damage" (pg42). (Precision damage includes sneak attack, sudden strike, and other things.)

RAI the creators of ToB probably meat for all of the maneuvers to not be multiplied on a crit unless specified in the maneuver description. RAW the damage from maneuvers expressed in dice don't multiply, but the damage expressed as a non-dice number would since the ToB creators don't seem to understand precision damage properly.

[Boci]

RAW the damage from maneuvers expressed in dice don't multiply, but the damage expressed as a non-dice number would since the ToB creators don't seem to understand precision damage properly.

What are you basing this on? I'm guessing extra damage is defined in the rules compendium.

Also Desert Wind dodge deals "an extra 1 point of fire damage".

[Firechanter]

Personally I avoid Stone Dragon, the stances are crap and the maneuvers come down to "some damage bonus, but you must keep your feet on the ground". So I usually just plan to take Mountain Hammer and be done with SD.

All the other disciplines are lovely. Alas, it's impossible to grab all the gold maneuvers with a single character. Unless you allow items to count as prereqs, but I find that rather dumb.

[Darrin]

What are you basing this on? I'm guessing extra damage is defined in the rules compendium.


This is still pretty clear in the SRD:

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

(emphasis added)

Note that the default rule on criticals is to multiply everything. The *exception* is extra damage expressed as dice.

If you're going by the exact wording in the PHB, then the word "dice" is missing from that "Exception" sentence. I think it's safe to assume that the revisions to the SRD and the Rules Compendium make it clear that the exception only applies to dice.

The Rules Compendium does in fact define extra damage on page 40, but it's not very helpful:

"Extra Damage
Extra damage beyond a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42) or the flaming property of a flaming sword, isn't multiplied when you score a critical hit."

It's like the designers added "dice" to one spot in the rules, and then forgot to add it to all the other places that mention "extra damage". However, all of the examples they cite here (sneak attack and flaming weapons) are almost always expressed as dice.



Also Desert Wind dodge deals "an extra 1 point of fire damage".

...and? It's not expressed as a die roll, so it gets multiplied.

[Boci]

It's like the designers added "dice" to one spot in the rules, and then forgot to add it to all the other places that mention "extra damage". However, all of the examples they cite here (sneak attack and flaming weapons) are almost always expressed as dice.

...and? It's not expressed as a die roll, so it gets multiplied.

So your previous assertion that "Extra damage means bonus damage expressed as dice" is in fact an opinion and not the rules. Strike of perfect clarity also says "deals an extra 100 points of damage". So we are left with the rule:

"You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

Which in the absence of further rules, applies to strike of perfect clarity, as the rule would be an exception to the core's ruling on critical hit damage.

Your idea that the writers forgot to add "dice" to extra damage clauses is interesting and possible, but has no relevance here.

[Gwendol]

Extra dice damage are not multiplied but all static damage enhancers are, that's the sanest interpretation.

As for maneuvers, try them out. Stone dragon isn't bad, but the requirements regarding movement and grounding may be a limitation.

[Boci]

Edit: Let's not scare away someone new to Tome of Battle with a discussion that is at best limited in aplication. New thread if you wish to continue: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16925831#post16925831

[Sam K]

Diamond mind and iron heart both have abilities that let you overcome some of the traditional bane of melee characters: abilities and spells that take you out of the fight on a failed will save.

Moment of the perfect mind is a lvl 1 diamond mind counter that lets you use a concentration check instead of a will save. This alone is reason to max concentration. A failed fortitude save might kill you, but a failed will save might cause you to kill your party!

Wall of blades is a iron heart counter that lets you replace your AC with an attack roll for one attack. This can be used on touch attacks, meaning you have a very effective defence against rays. Since a warblade rarely has that great AC, this can be a lifesaver. Plus, you get to PARRY RAYS WITH YOUR SWORD! Iron heart surge has already been mentioned.

Tiger claw is one of the most cinematic styles with cool leaping attacks. Just make sure you decide how you're going to fight; while tiger claw is normally considered mostly a dual wield style, you can use many moves with twohanded fighting as well, just make sure you pick the right ones. Stone dragon isn't so bad, although it lacks some of the utility that other styles have (but hey, that's why you take some moves from other styles as well :)). It DOES have the disadvantage that most manouvers cant be used unless you're standing on solid ground. This is no problem in an underdark campaign, but can be really bad if you're planning to go to the elemental plane of air.

Oh, stone dragon STANCES absolutely suck, because they usually end if you move more than 5 feet. One of the huge advantages of ToB classes is that they can fight in a more mobile way than fighters dependant on full attacks, so relying on stone dragon stances may lose you that advantage. However, using tiger claw stances and stone dragon strikes can be pretty cool. ELDER MOUNTAIN HAMMER TO THE FACE FRENZY! Grawr! It's enough to make an old savage proud!

[Endarire]

If you want to jump a lot, consider going Hood (http://antioch.snow-fall.com/files/members/Endarire/DnD/Little%20Red%20Raiding%20Hood%202.3%20Lite.zip).

I like Stone Dragon too, but SD is one of the weakest schools in general. Consider using Endarire's Revised Stone Dragon Discipline (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zRn1aUJyyPQU--2z9ff5wylO-VSMsNXfNMFuPjtIDIY/edit?usp=sharing). If not, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are generally the strongest Warblade disciplines. I'd normally focus on DM and IH with splashes of Tiger Claw, White Raven, and Stone Dragon.

[Deophaun]

You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack.
That second sentence is very important. Either it is contradicting the first sentence, or it means that the first sentence is overreaching and defining a general rule of the game contra what the core rules say, and core rules have precedence when it comes to general rules. Regardless of how that plays out, the outcome is the whole thing is null and void and you go with the general rule: extra damage dice are not multiplied, fixed numbers are.

[Boci]

Already covered in its own thread.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Stone Dragon's restrictions are unfair and annoying, but Mountain Hammer is worth having in the arsenal (especially if you have adaptive style) for its ability to ignore hardness. Not just DR, hardness. I've turned adamantine doors into impromptu treasure hauls and seen my friend use it to destroy traps whole-cloth on many an occasion. :smallcool:
It also have Crushing Vise a no save strike that drops a foe's speeds (all of them!) to 0 for 1 round. If you can't find a good use out of that, you're not trying very hard.

Those are the only two SD maneuvers I consistently pick up, though Minotaur's Rush is decent as well. If I actually got to level 20 frequently, I'd probably take MTS every time just for the virtue of it not having pre-reqs and running out of other level 9 maneuvers I qualify for.