Swift Hunter Help

[warrior80]

So I am playing 3.5 for the first time and have decided to run a simple Swift Hunter build but I am running into some issues with my starting build.

First off I am joining a group that is already level 5 so I am making a level 5 character. Since I am new, however, I am trying to figure out exactly how all the mechanics of my character work.

So reading these forums I came across a post that said the following:

"If the players handbook II is open I'd advise doing the following.

First, make an affiliation of some kind. Make them like, undead hunters as the theme, and give him bonus status as per affiliation rules for having favored enemy: Undead, which fits ranger fluff perfectly anyway. Have it grant a skirmish progression, and several hits of the Turn undead feat as a benefit of membership. Also make it like the swift hunter feat in that when you skirmish something that would normally be immune, it loses that immunity if it's creature type is a favored enemy of yours. Have it grant you a couple of Bonus hits of Favored enemy for the Ranger levels you lose for PRC's to get better Animal companion, and have it grant you Hide in plain sight and Improved evasion if the PRC's would normally cost you those.

Now, at lvl 1, Have him Dip Cloistered Cleric. Have him take Knowledge and Travel Devotion in place of the domains, and find another Devotion feat that's either useful or flavorful, or both. Say your using the concept of the natural order as the thing you get power from so that you can just get the Domains you want.

This character should, it would note, have a high Int, as that will let him have the skills to be stealthy and to take at least five if not six Knowledge skills and max them. The Knowledge skills he wants are Arcana, Religion, The planes, Dungeonering, Local, and Nature.

From here, you have to take Archery Feats and the above advice for having a powerful animal companion, and make sure you've got a means of getting flying, haste, and some degree of shadows for Hide in Plain sight reliably. Also take the improved Skirmish feat for the extra damage.

Enjoy being able to move and full attack from travel devotion, taking lot's of shots with haste, improved Rapid shot, and Greater Many shot (and if you can get it splitting.) + full BAB with extra damage form Skirmish and Knowledge Devotion as well as extra Too hit, and only having Heavy Fortified armor to meaningfully screw you up, while you have the use of Knowledge skills and Stealth skills, and of course a powerful animal companion."

My question is with the first level dip into cloistered cleric. The person states that you should take the Knowledge Devotion Feat in place of Knowledge Domain. I understand by doing this you are granted the ability to study your prey which grants an insight bonus on both the attack and damage roll. Got that.

Here is my problem: The person states that with a high enough intelligence score you should be able to max 6 knowledge skills and possibly stealth. I have a 16 for Int score which is giving me a +3 mod (aka 36 skill points). At first level I believe you can add 4 ranks max to a skill. Now if a class skill takes 1 point per rank and a non-class skill takes 2 points per rank. How are you suppose to max all 6-7 skills? That would require 36 points for just 5 of the knowledge skills.

Am I wrong??? :smallannoyed: 3.5 is really confusing to me...

I think the person assumed that you got the knowledge skills from the class and not the domain.

Further, the knowledge devotion feat states that one needs a prereq of Knowledge(any) rank 5. So can you substitute this at level one still?

What my build was supposed to be was a stealthy skirmisher that could both scout and disable traps while wielding a bow. If people have better builds than the cloister dip please send them my way. OR if someone has a scout archer that does loads of damage while still being sneaking.. I could lose the trap idea :smallbiggrin:

Thanks.

-EDIT- My original idea was Human 1 Cloistered Cleric/4 Scout/15 Ranger

[Chronos]

Your max ranks are your level plus three, and at first level you get four times your usual number of skill points. So at first level, you'll have 36 skill points, enough to max out 9 skills. At each subsequent level, you'll gain 9 skill points, which you can put one each into those same 9 skills. At any given level in your progression, you'll always be able to have 9 skills maxed out.

[warrior80]

Chronos: But don't non-class(untrained) skills only receive half a point meaning it would take 8 points to max out those skills? 8 * 0.5 = 4?

[warrior80]

Never mind I think I figured it out... I wasn't adding the ability mod to the total :smalleek: Sorry guys but thanks Chronos for making me take a second look :smallcool:

[Urpriest]

Further, the knowledge devotion feat states that one needs a prereq of Knowledge(any) rank 5. So can you substitute this at level one still?

That's arguable. By the wording of the section on Devotion Feats, you should be able to trade your Knowledge Domain out at second level for Knowledge Devotion, letting you buy skill points in the knowledge skills as class skills at level one. The description doesn't say you have to make the trade at level one, and as you point out in some cases you couldn't even make the prereqs.

[D4rkh0rus]

Cloistered cleric gives Knowledge arcana, Planes and Religion, Ranger/Scout gives knowledge Nature and Dungeoneering.

those are the 5 monster knowledges, (by this I mean all creatures you find can be identified by one of the 5)

You should ask your DM if hes doing normal class/cross class costs, or if hes doing a "if its a class skill for one of your classes, its for everyone" houserule. Some DMs do that...

Otherwise, If you're Human, Id suggest you take the Able Learner feat.
IT basically does just that... you only spend 1 skill point per skill rank no matter what (you still have the normal skill cap of Lv +3 if class skill or Lv/2 +3 for cross class.)

If I were to suggest a Build, Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 I find pretty decent. taking the first level in scout for the extra skill points.

Make sure to find if you can, some Alternate class features:

Theres one for the scout that trades his fast movement at lvl 3 for a climbing speed (this is awesome, it means you can climb like a spider instead of relying on skill checks)

And another one where instead of getting an animal companion, you get a familiar (which is much better since its a better scout and scales better) This one is in the cityscape web enhancement.


for Domains, cloistered cleric gets Knowledge, and swift hunter needs travel to function correctly.
As a very very flavorful 3rd domain, Id suggest the Bestial Domain from book of vile darkness, its power is that you gain Scent. So, Max out survival to get a real feel of the wilderness man.

You have ~9 skill points per level. I wouldn't suggest maxing every knowledge. Have a talk with your DM, ask him what kinds of creatures are more common, etc. Max out 1 or 2 and put ~5 ranks in the rest. and get a Skill trick (Which costs 2 skill points from complete scoundrel) Called collector of stories, it basically adds +5 to a knowledge check to identify a monster.

I would suggest getting the perception/stealth combo maxed (Hide, Move silently, Spot and Listen) These can save your life. many times.

Well... that was a long post....


Anyways.. Basically, answering your dilema about skill costs... Human + Able Learner fixes it.

[warrior80]

Cloistered cleric gives Knowledge arcana, Planes and Religion

Where are you getting this? The language in Unearthed Arcana is as follows:
Class Skills: The cloistered cleric’s class skill list includes
Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills
(from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric
gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifi er (and has this
number ×4 at 1st level)....

Class Skills: The cloistered cleric’s class skill list includes
Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills
(from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric
gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifi er (and has this
number ×4 at 1st level).

[D4rkh0rus]

Where are you getting this? The language in Unearthed Arcana is as follows:

Im sure I read somewhere that they also get the Cleric's normal Skills.

[Akal Saris]

They lose the bonus skills if they trade out the Knowledge domain for Knowledge devotion, however.

Since Knowledge devotion gives 1 Knowledge skill as a permanent class skill, I'd highly recommend Knowledge (Local), so that you can use Knowledge devotion against humanoid foes.

My swift hunter was a bit higher level, and eventually I traded out the cloistered cleric level because it didn't really add as much power to the character as I had expected, but made the book-keeping for skill points and spells much more involved. We were also playing with exp penalties, which was a headache to avoid as well.

[D4rkh0rus]

They lose the bonus skills if they trade out the Knowledge domain for Knowledge devotion, however.

Since Knowledge devotion gives 1 Knowledge skill as a permanent class skill, I'd highly recommend Knowledge (Local), so that you can use Knowledge devotion against humanoid foes.

My swift hunter was a bit higher level, and eventually I traded out the cloistered cleric level because it didn't really add as much power to the character as I had expected, but made the book-keeping for skill points and spells much more involved. We were also playing with exp penalties, which was a headache to avoid as well.

how did cloistered cleric not add enough power?

Swift hunters rely on skirmish, which relies on moving 10 ft and then attacking.... unless you were getting strange ways to constantly get extra movement... or getting hustle somehow...

[Akal Saris]

how did cloistered cleric not add enough power?

Swift hunters rely on skirmish, which relies on moving 10 ft and then attacking.... unless you were getting strange ways to constantly get extra movement... or getting hustle somehow...

I had a belt of battle (3/day use a swift action to take a move action), a chronotron of the wanderer (500g necklack for 1/day travel devotion), and I took travel devotion as a standard feat once.

The campaign was a nautical one for the most part, which meant we rarely had more than 1 combat per day, so that was enough extra movement for every combat from levels 8-16 :)

When I rebuilt the character at ECL 10 as a scout 3/ranger 7, I found that the extra favored enemy, point of BAB from the extra ranger level, and access to 2nd level spells was quite useful in comparison, especially given how much SpC helped build up ranger spell-casting.

I'm not recommending it for everyone, as cleric is a terrific dip (and I've contributed to the cleric dip handbook), but the 1 level dip is not actually a must-have if you consider your campaign needs and the numerous ways to gain extra movement.

[Kennisiou]

Cloistered cleric gives Knowledge arcana, Planes and Religion, Ranger/Scout gives knowledge Nature and Dungeoneering.

those are the 5 monster knowledges, (by this I mean all creatures you find can be identified by one of the 5)


I know it's pedantic, but you need Knowledge (local) to identify humanoids. While you should easily just, like, flat out know any "obvious" humanoids like elves/goblins/dwarves etc, it still means you can't knowledge devotion against them.

Also, on the cleric discussion, my feelings on the CC dip are that it's free travel devotion feat, free turning pool to power it with, and free knowledge devotion (and free undeath domain to get extra turning as a bonus feat for more travel devotion, unless you decide other domains/devotions are better for you), as well as gaining the entire cleric spell list and the spell list for your domains for use with magic items. It also gives you more class skills (if you're an able learner it's super boss) and at 6+int skill points it's as good at getting you points as a ranger level. This comes at the cost of 1 BaB, some ranger spells/day, and a favored enemy progression. So basically you're freeing up some feats and some money, gaining more class skills, gaining a wider spell pool for magic item activations (although not really for practical casting), and improving your will save all in exchange for some health, 1 BaB, a favored enemy and some ranger spells/day. Depending on the levels you play through you don't even lose out on some of those things. It's not always going to be better for you, but it's usually going to be.

[warrior80]

So by trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion do you retain the class skills for all the knowledge skills(those granted by Knowledge Domain) or do you lose them?

I am assuming you can only use knowledge devotion with knowledge skills that are class skills.

[TuggyNE]

So by trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion do you retain the class skills for all the knowledge skills(those granted by Knowledge Domain) or do you lose them?

You lose those granted by the Knowledge domain.


I am assuming you can only use knowledge devotion with knowledge skills that are class skills.

I don't believe that's the case. Not that it matters all that much, since all you're missing is K: Local.