Conjurer Summoner (3.5)

[D4rkh0rus]

for a wizard focused on summoning (with AOE/Control as a side), Other than Augment summoning... what feat is outright necessary?

Is Extend, Sculpt, Empower, Quicken and Chain spell a good set of metamagics?

Would you take out one of them to add in Rapid Spell? If so, Which one and why?


Also, are there any summoning guides? (not on the caster, but rather depicting which creatures from each SM spell are worth summoning and which ones aren't)

[Urpriest]

There's an ACF for Conjurers, Rapid Summoning, that essentially gives you Rapid Spell. It's from Unearthed Arcana.

Have you considered Malconvoker?

Even if you're not going that route, the best summoning handbooks are Malconvoker ones, so that will probably give you some good sources.

[D4rkh0rus]

There's an ACF for Conjurers, Rapid Summoning, that essentially gives you Rapid Spell. It's from Unearthed Arcana.

Have you considered Malconvoker?

Even if you're not going that route, the best summoning handbooks are Malconvoker ones, so that will probably give you some good sources.

I was gonna take rapid summoning, but I prefer Abrupt jaunt... I value an immediate get out of jail free card more than being able to move and cast a summon.

[137beth]

It's debatable whether Quicken can apply to summon spells--(is "1 round" longer than a full-round action?)
I'd go with rapid spell over empowered, personally. Rapid allows you to have your summons start attacking one round earlier, and makes it harder for enemies to interrupt your casting. And it's cheap.

On the off-chance that your DM allows pathfinder feats, this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/superior-summoning) is an obvious choice.

[D4rkh0rus]

It's debatable whether Quicken can apply to summon spells--(is "1 round" longer than a full-round action?)
I'd go with rapid spell over empowered, personally. Rapid allows you to have your summons start attacking one round earlier, and makes it harder for enemies to interrupt your casting. And it's cheap.

On the off-chance that your DM allows pathfinder feats, this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/superior-summoning) is an obvious choice.

Is empower a weak metamagic? I was planning on stuff like acid rain and breath for some dmg. or its just not worth it?

[chaos_redefined]

You already have damage in the form of shooting fiendish rhinoceros's at people. And it's not debatable whether 1 round (a move, a standard, and the time before your next turn) is longer than a fullround (a move and a standard). No quickening summons without rapid-izing them first.

I have seen some DMs state that immediate actions don't work while you are in the process of casting, such as when you are summoning.

As far as other handbooks, treantmonk's malconvoker guide is probably the best even if you aren't malconvoking. After that, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219) contains the best options for what to summon.

As far as those metamagics go... Empower is ok if you plan on blasting a lot, which isn't something you should be doing (since you already have summons attacking). Quicken and Sculpt are always good choices. Extend gets messy in where it's good. And Chain is kinda expensive (+3) but otherwise, perfectly fine. War Weaver might be worth looking at if you like chain spell for buffing.

[D4rkh0rus]

You already have damage in the form of shooting fiendish rhinoceros's at people. And it's not debatable whether 1 round (a move, a standard, and the time before your next turn) is longer than a fullround (a move and a standard). No quickening summons without rapid-izing them first.

I have seen some DMs state that immediate actions don't work while you are in the process of casting, such as when you are summoning.

As far as other handbooks, treantmonk's malconvoker guide is probably the best even if you aren't malconvoking. After that, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219) contains the best options for what to summon.

As far as those metamagics go... Empower is ok if you plan on blasting a lot, which isn't something you should be doing (since you already have summons attacking). Quicken and Sculpt are always good choices. Extend gets messy in where it's good. And Chain is kinda expensive (+3) but otherwise, perfectly fine. War Weaver might be worth looking at if you like chain spell for buffing.


Ill be going Ultimate magus, so Ill be able to apply chain and sculpt/etc on the go... Id rather not take other classes.

[Bullet06320]

a couple of levels of master specialist cant hurt, and u can qualify for it at 3rd level if u take the preccociuos apprentice route
then usually malconvoker around 6th if u don't mind skipping a spell level

rapid summoning ACF is a must as already stated for a specialist conjurer
the faster your summons get into battle the better

extend is good, summons lasts longer to do your bidding

for banned schools, keep abjuration and transmutation, u can ditch illusion, enchantment or necromancy or even evocation and still have a good spell load out. you will get different opinions as witch ones are more useless, in a conjurer build, lol

and yes read treatmonks guide it is good and usefull

[Spuddles]

Evocation is pretty ditchable of you go conjuration, imo, because mephits get you gust of wind and ice devils get you wall of ice.

Sculpt spell is totes awesome on grease and glitterdust.

I vastly prefer rapid metamagic ACF over abrupt jaunt, but that's personal preference. Early use of swift actions is very nice and we cant all be sorcerers using wings of Nope.

There's a DR feat that lets you spontaneously cast summoning spells. Nexus Method. Greyhawk regiona feat.

[Max Caysey]

for a wizard focused on summoning (with AOE/Control as a side), Other than Augment summoning... what feat is outright necessary?

Is Extend, Sculpt, Empower, Quicken and Chain spell a good set of metamagics?

Would you take out one of them to add in Rapid Spell? If so, Which one and why?


Also, are there any summoning guides? (not on the caster, but rather depicting which creatures from each SM spell are worth summoning and which ones aren't)

This might be a stupid question, but do you allow 3rd party?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I was gonna take rapid summoning, but I prefer Abrupt jaunt... I value an immediate get out of jail free card more than being able to move and cast a summon.

See if you can trade your class-granted familiar for Abrupt Jaunt, then take the feat Obtain Familiar at 3rd level and trade that familiar for Rapid Summoning.

Invisible Spell in Cityscape is nice for summoned creatures, since it will make them permanently invisible. The same goes for crowd controls like Grease, Wall of Smoke, and Black Tentacles, nobody will even know it's there because the entire effect will be invisible.

[D4rkh0rus]

See if you can trade your class-granted familiar for Abrupt Jaunt, then take the feat Obtain Familiar at 3rd level and trade that familiar for Rapid Summoning.

Invisible Spell in Cityscape is nice for summoned creatures, since it will make them permanently invisible. The same goes for crowd controls like Grease, Wall of Smoke, and Black Tentacles, nobody will even know it's there because the entire effect will be invisible.

the obtain familiar trick, I'm not sure it'll fly by...

And im pretty tight on feats (Got Able learner, Practiced Spellcaster (beguiler), Spell Focus (Conj.), Extend spell, Sculpt spell, Quicken spell, Metamagic school focus (Conj), Chain spell, and will add rapid spell...

[Chronos]

Are you dead-set on arcane? Divine casters can summon just as well as arcane can, but with more HP and armor. They also potentially have access to more things to boost their summons.

[D4rkh0rus]

Are you dead-set on arcane? Divine casters can summon just as well as arcane can, but with more HP and armor. They also potentially have access to more things to boost their summons.

My party has a cleric already, but not a single arcane caster of any kind... heck they don't even have an UMD junkie...

And I value the versatility of two different casters than having two pretty much equal ones.... rope trick. yep.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

the obtain familiar trick, I'm not sure it'll fly by...

And im pretty tight on feats (Got Able learner, Practiced Spellcaster (beguiler), Spell Focus (Conj.), Extend spell, Sculpt spell, Quicken spell, Metamagic school focus (Conj), Chain spell, and will add rapid spell...

You don't need Spell Focus: Conjuration unless you're taking Master Specialist, you can get Augment Summoning instead of Scribe Scroll via the UA ACF without needing its prerequisite, and you qualify for Metamagic School Focus just being a specialist. You won't need Rapid Spell with the Obtain Familiar trick, so you save a feat by using the Obtain Familiar trick.

Be sure to get Versatile Spellcaster, so you can spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you know of one level higher, plus get early access to the next level of the Beguiler spell list.

[sideswipe]

good feats that directly make your summons stronger are -

greenbound (template)
ashbound (template)
Imbued Summoning (adds buff spell to summoned creature)

If you want to summon undead take the corpse crafter feat tree in i believe libris mortis.

[KorbeltheReader]

I've gotten a lot of use out of Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration). There are a lot of great +1 metamagics out there for conjurers -- Sculpt Spell, Rapid Spell, Imbued Summoning -- and getting 3 of them for free is great.

Also, here's (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1134896) the 3.5 summonable monster list with recommendations after a few responses that you were looking for.

Note that arcane summoning gets progressively weaker in the higher levels, so if you're going that far, you should find a way to get access to some of the high level cleric summons.

[Bonzai]

I went with Nexus method (living greyhawk feat), which lets you summon as a standard. Then I went with Master specialist which then can improve it up to a Swift action several times a day. Another fun one on top of that was Thaumaturgists contingent conjuration.

I love conjurers. I played one recently, and over time I felt that my summons were really second fiddle my battle field control spells. I would create a zone with Evards, Caustic Mire, etc.. off of a spell squencer, then use dimensional shuffle and dimensional hop offensively to put opponents into the kill zone I just created. My main metamagic was heighten, to boost the DC of my offensive teleports.

At that point summons where just there to road block things from leaving the area of effects.

[sideswipe]

Note that arcane summoning gets progressively weaker in the higher levels, so if you're going that far, you should find a way to get access to some of the high level cleric summons.

both spell lists have the same 9th level summon spell which is equally powerful.
Gate.

[D4rkh0rus]

I went with Nexus method (living greyhawk feat), which lets you summon as a standard. Then I went with Master specialist which then can improve it up to a Swift action several times a day. Another fun one on top of that was Thaumaturgists contingent conjuration.

I love conjurers. I played one recently, and over time I felt that my summons were really second fiddle my battle field control spells. I would create a zone with Evards, Caustic Mire, etc.. off of a spell squencer, then use dimensional shuffle and dimensional hop offensively to put opponents into the kill zone I just created. My main metamagic was heighten, to boost the DC of my offensive teleports.

At that point summons where just there to road block things from leaving the area of effects.

Ohh do explain... Im not well versed into the wombo comboes of Spellcasting in DnD and I see a straight up conjurer as a CC machine, so I opted for a summoning focus so I could have my own pet guardian of sorts while I cc.

But if your basically saying I can create zones of No-Save Death and stuff... I do wanna know...

So far the only thing Ive come up with is sculpting solid spells (wall of stone/etc) into Cubes and crushing people/having it materialize on them or making a prison of sorts....

I've yet to find a "Wizard Wombo Combo handbook" D:

[Chronos]

Black Tentacles, Acid or Freezing Fog, Cloudkill (which offers a save, but it's repeated every round you're stuck in the area, which is going to be a while)... And meanwhile, of course, you can also toss some extra damage into the area.

[Melcar]

See if you can trade your class-granted familiar for Abrupt Jaunt, then take the feat Obtain Familiar at 3rd level and trade that familiar for Rapid Summoning.

Invisible Spell in Cityscape is nice for summoned creatures, since it will make them permanently invisible. The same goes for crowd controls like Grease, Wall of Smoke, and Black Tentacles, nobody will even know it's there because the entire effect will be invisible.

Abrubt Jaunt is brokenly powerful... I would never allow it. We had a summoner at one point in our party. Made everybudy else redundant.

[bekeleven]

1: Conjurer 1
Rapid Summoning
Enhanced Summoning
Focused Specialist (Enchant, Necro, Evoc)
Spell Focus (Conj)
Nexus Method
2: Conjurer 2
3: Conjurer 3
Imbued Summoning
4: Master Specialist 1
5: Master Specialist 2
6: Master Specialist 3
Metamagic School Focus
7: Master Specialist 4
8: Master Specialist 5
9: Master Specialist 6
Extend Spell
10: Master Specialist 7
11: Master Specialist 8
12: Master Specialist 9
13: Master Specialist 10
Beckon the Frozen
14: Malconvoker 1
15: Malconvoker 2
16: Malconvoker 3
Residual Magic
17: Malconvoker 4
18: Malconvoker 5
Rapid Spell
19: Paragnostic Apostle 1
Call of Worlds
20: Paragnostic Apostle 2
Divine Understanding (Summoner)
Cast any Summon Monster spell
- Spontaneously (Nexus Method)
OR Imbued/Extend/Rapid for free (3/Day, Imbue+MM School Focus)
OR Imbued/Extend/Rapid for free (After another casting, Residual Magic)
- AND as a swift action (3/Day, Rapid Summoning+MS 10)
- AND Frozen (+1D6 Cold Damage/NA, Subtype, optional)
- AND Extended (Evil)
- AND Furied (Evil= +2 Damage/Weapons, +2 HP/HD, +2/Will)
- AND Twin (Evil=Extra Summon)
- AND Fast Healing 5
- AND Augmented
- AND +HP=CL
CL: 22 (Summons), +7/Dispels

1: Conjurer 1
Ban Enchant, Necro
Rapid Summoning
Enhanced Summoning
Spell Focus (Conj)
Metamagic School Focus (Conj)
2: Conjurer 2
3: Conjurer 3
Iron Will
4: Master Specialist 1
5: Master Specialist 2
6: Incantatrix 1
Ban Evocation
Extend Spell
Halruuan Adept
7: Incantatrix 2
8: Incantatrix 3
9: Incantatrix 4
Quicken Spell
Summon Elemental
10: Incantatrix 5
11: Incantatrix 6
12: Incantatrix 7
Repeat Spell
Residual Magic
13: Incantatrix 8
14: Incantatrix 9
15: Incantatrix 10
Empower Spell
Spell Thematics
16: Halruaan Elder 1
Adroit Casting: Repeat
17: Halruaan Elder 2
Signature Spell (Summon Monster IX)
18: Halruaan Elder 3
Arcane Thesis (Summon Monster IX)
Rashemi Elemental Summoning
19: Halruaan Elder 4
Adroit Casting: Quicken Spell
20: Malconvoker 1
- Cast summons as standard
- Treat Quicken as +2 Meta, Repeat cheaper
- After every Meta'd casting, repeat 1 meta free next round
- Treat Empower as +1 Meta
- 3 -1 Metamagics per day (School Focus)
- Spontaneously cast SM8-9
- Free Extend (Evil Summons)
- Augment Summoning
- All Incantatrix shenannigans, including:
- 3/Day free Quicken or Repeat
- Free after-the-fact Extend
- Free Augmented, Rashemi Elemental on-tap
CL: 21 (Summons), 23 (SM9)

Flavor metamagics to taste, of course. No idea why people suggested greenbound/ashbound, those are SNA only.

[Urpriest]

Ultimate Magus makes this a bit different. If you can Rapid things up, then Quicken and Twin are nice metamagics for your UM features (I'm assuming you're not investing in the tech required to use Ultimate Magus on Persist, right?)

You definitely don't need Empower, though. Summoning can generally deal more damage than blasting if used intelligently.

Imbued Summoning, while already mentioned, is handy.

[KorbeltheReader]

both spell lists have the same 9th level summon spell which is equally powerful.
Gate.

Not all campaigns start at epic. It's a long road from 7 (when clerics get lesser planar ally) to 17 (when wizards and clerics gets gate).

[Big Fau]

You definitely don't need Empower, though. Summoning can generally deal more damage than blasting if used intelligently.

While I do agree that Empower isn't necessary for a Conjurer, it can be used to get additional beatsticks if you don't need a higher level beatstick.

[D4rkh0rus]

Black Tentacles, Acid or Freezing Fog, Cloudkill (which offers a save, but it's repeated every round you're stuck in the area, which is going to be a while)... And meanwhile, of course, you can also toss some extra damage into the area.

Thanks, thats useful to know.





Ultimate Magus makes this a bit different. If you can Rapid things up, then Quicken and Twin are nice metamagics for your UM features (I'm assuming you're not investing in the tech required to use Ultimate Magus on Persist, right?)

You definitely don't need Empower, though. Summoning can generally deal more damage than blasting if used intelligently.

Imbued Summoning, while already mentioned, is handy.

Yea, im not gonna invest in Persisting stuff.

K so im gonna see if I can swap empower for obtain familiar then swap that for theACF that lets me rapid summon... otherwise ill just get rapid spell...



also, If I may ask. whats the difference between 1 round and 1 full-round action?

Does one round mean like the entire 6 second space where every player/mob takes its turn?

[Urpriest]

also, If I may ask. whats the difference between 1 round and 1 full-round action?

Does one round mean like the entire 6 second space where every player/mob takes its turn?

In a nutshell, yes. A full-round action goes from the beginning of your turn to the end of your turn. 1 round casting goes from the beginning of your turn to the beginning of your next turn.

[D4rkh0rus]

In a nutshell, yes. A full-round action goes from the beginning of your turn to the end of your turn. 1 round casting goes from the beginning of your turn to the beginning of your next turn.

Allright.


I asked my DM and he allows getting obtain familiar and swapping it again... so Im looking at these feats:

1 Able Learner
1 Prac. Spellcaster (beguiler)
1 Spell Focus (conj)
3 Rapid Summoning (Got obtain familiar and swapped it)
5 Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (From Master specialist 1)
6 Sculpt Spell
9 Quicken Spell
10 (UM feat) Twin spell
12 Metamagic School Focus (Conj.)
14 (UM feat) Chain Spell
15 Spell focus (Illusion) (gonna take lvls in Archmage)
18 Something...

How do they look?

Im gonna see if I can invest in Rods of Extend...

[Gnome Alone]

Abrubt Jaunt is brokenly powerful... I would never allow it. We had a summoner at one point in our party. Made everybudy else redundant.

I'd be too embarrassed to request having Abrupt Jaunt, personally. I mean, how about I just ask to be the freaking King himself of whatever made-up country we're in and be done with it?