Sorcerer Spells

[Kraklen88]

Hello,

I am recently starting in a campaign and could use some help. I will be playing a Gnome Sorcerer. I am looking at the sorcerer spell selection and trying to decide on my 20 levels. I am thinking of doing 4 levels of Fatespinner. Maybe another prestige would be better/more rewarding? I also thought about Mage of the Arcane Order and picking up some blaster spells/feats. There is a very good chance that I will be the only arcane and maybe even the only full blown caster.

So far I have:

1st - Grease, Shield (switched out Mage Armor), Magic Missile (switched out Sleep), Feather Fall, Nerveskitter
2nd - Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Web, (blank). I was thinking Knock but that would be a good wand spell. Maybe Alter Self?
3rd - Haste, Phantom Steed (switched out Fly), Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud. Maybe switch out Dispel Magic and/or Stinking Cloud later but for what?
4th - Enervation, Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Dimension Door. I also really like Wings of Flurry but I am not sure what I would give up.
5th - Cloudkill, Teleport, Feeblemind, Baleful Polymorph. Teleport might help if Dimension Door isnt around or if it is heavy story. Not sure if I need Cloudkill and Stinking Cloud. Baleful Polymorph really that good?
6th - Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic, Contingency. Not sure what else I would pick here.
7th - Arcane Spellsurge, Reverse Gravity, (blank). I honestly cannot find the right spell here. Maybe Finger of Death?
8th - Mind Blank, Greater Prying Eyes, Maze. Figure with Feeblemind, need a way to disable non-casters. Irresistible Dance could work too.
9th - Timestop, Shapechange, Gate. Figure those are by far the best.

Edit: My group so far is: Human Paladin, Bard (unknown race), Human Rogue/Swashbuckler. There are a few other undecided people but my guess is that they will play physical classes since they are new.

[Amphetryon]

I'm not sure why you switched out Mage Armor for Shield, or Magic Missile for Sleep. I think most of your other choices and prime candidates are quite solid.

What sources are allowed?

[Kraklen88]

Thanks for the reply. All sources minus Book of Vile Darkness and online. The DM doesn't like evil and doesn't really do online sources/homebrew.

I meant that I switched out Mage Armor for Shield (once I get some bracers of armor or Twilight Mithral) and Sleep for Magic Missile. I should have been more clear.

[ddude987]

I recommend dipping into a class such as mindbender for 1 level before PrCing into fatespinner. Sorcerer doesn't give anything past level 1 so in general, try and get as many Prestige Classes as possible. Also, you should fit greater arcane spellsurge in there. If you're a gnome, shadowcraft mage is amazing if you want to go that route. Word to the wise, I wouldn't switch out stinking cloud, its to good. Also ruin delver's fortune can be a life saver as can alter fortune.

[Amphetryon]

T
I meant that I switched out Mage Armor for Shield (once I get some bracers of armor or Twilight Mithral) and Sleep for Magic Missile. I should have been more clear.
I understood what was switched, but generally speaking, both swaps you list are downgrades except in specific circumstances. Particularly in a combat-heavy group, you probably won't need Magic Missile very often at all, and the duration of Shield makes it generally less desirable than Mage Armor.

[Kraklen88]

Thanks, ddude!

I can make Charm Person my blank first level spell.

Do you mean Greater Arcane Fusion or Greater Arcane Spellsurge? I could probably fit Greater Arcane Fusion and get rid of Maze.

The only problem with Ruin Delver's Fortune is that I already have too many ideas for my 4th level spells. Which spell would I give up? Wings of Flurry not worth it? Also, wouldn't my Fatespinner class abilities help with that?

I forgot that Mindbender progressed casting at level 1. I will probably dip into that when possible.

[Kraklen88]

I understood what was switched, but generally speaking, both swaps you list are downgrades except in specific circumstances. Particularly in a combat-heavy group, you probably won't need Magic Missile very often at all, and the duration of Shield makes it generally less desirable than Mage Armor.

Really? I would think they were upgrades. I mean, once I got like past level 4.

I just liked Shield because a) if I have an armor bonus, like from armor or bracers, Mage armor will not stack and b) it blocks magic missile attacks which is nice in a caster duel.

Magic Missile is low damage but it is force and always hits. Just figured anything would be better than Sleep after Level 4. What would you do instead?

[nedz]

Why no Colour Spray, Silent Image, ..., Shadow Conjuration, ... ?
Gnomes get +1 DC on those, and they are very good spells.

OK you can swap out Colour Spray at some point, though it is still effective all the way through — it's just that you have better options later. Some of the image line can be swapped out also.

[Spuddles]

Some legal and less than legal 3.5 ways to get more spells known. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15519874&postcount=35

[ericgrau]

Some of my favorites
1: [empowered] Ray of enfeeblement
3: Sleet storm, [empowered] fireball
4: solid fog, resilient sphere, greater invisibility
5: wall of force
6: mass bear's endurance

Also spells to swap in later:
1: unseen servant (get up 8-24 hours), mage armor (get up 24 hours), summon monster I (badger + racial speak with burrowing animals; for utility uses), [empowered] magic missile
2: [empowered] false life (get up 24 hours), levitate (exploit the range), invisibility
3: greater magic weapon (get up 24 hours)
4: stoneskin (buy lots of diamond dust, don't worry about cost it's better than any gear you'd buy, cast at every dungeon entrance)
5: overland flight (get up 24 hours)

Shield is pretty bad. Especially not sure why you'd swap out mage armor later rather than swapping it in. Knock should neither be known nor wanded, but rather scrolled. Other good scrolls include spider climb, floating disk (CL 3) and identify. A good wand is invisibility though as a sorcerer you can just learn it. Really you can scroll all the 1st level utility since it's so cheap.

Otherwise your current spells seem good too.

As you can tell I like empower. It works on enervation too. A lesser rod of extend spell is nice if you take a lot of my swap-in suggestions, rather than feat-extending them to 24 hours or burning a lot of spells.

[Katana1515]

As regards Fatespinner, it’s one of my favourite sorcerer prestige classes. Poweful without getting books thrown at you like an incantatrix would. (also ranks in proffesion Gambler?? if you can't find a fluff use for that you aren’t trying hard enough!) There is nothing quite like the ability to reroll an unfavourable D20. Fiend Blooded would be next suggestion but you said your DM dislikes evil :(

As for spells for sorcerers your list looks pretty solid. You lack wall spells though. either wall of stone or force, both provide awesome BFC. For sorcerers I prefer Force since my wizard’s don’t get to take it on account of blocking evocation and while not permanent it makes a stronger wall. Also at levels 5 to 6 you have feeblemind, baleful polymorph and disintegrate. That’s quite a lot of single target save or die/lose/massive damage spells when you only really need one of the three, maybe 2. Lose either feeblemind or BP perhaps?

Also be aware that Cloudkill is very much a mook killer spell, 1d4 con to anything with more than 6hd is (in my humble opinion) a bit meh for level 5. if you are concerned about crowd control you have Black Tentacles to fall back on. So i would advise swapping that out for something like SM5 or maybe telekinesis or overland flight, I am afb at the moment but might make more suggestions when i get home.

also on the Mage armour vs Shield discussion, I would make the point that unless your DM arbitralliy gives you the bracers of armour as loot, casting mage armour once or twice a day is a much better allocation of resources than buying the AC items. By all means have both spells if you want try and keep your AC high in low to mid levels but you will often find shields low duration makes it a lot less useful than it first appears.

Apart from that you seem to have your bases covered, particularly in a game with a lot of new players.

Edit: oh and for the blank level 7 slot, isnt spell turning level 7? at those levels people with caster levels are generally the biggest threat around. either that or some kind of divination like greater scrying, as this might be something your group may lack with no full divine casters.

Edit 2 (my god the procrastination from my uni work continues): Wings of flurry is cool, if you want a damage spell I would personally drop polymorph. I know its awesome but its controversial, polymorph causes arguments in a way few other spells do. also whats the appeal of turning into a melee monster if 3/4 of the party is melee focused? either they do their job better than you or worse still you do melee better than the fighters, making them obsolete. its utility uses can largely be made up by combining invisibility and fly.

[Rebel7284]

Are you starting at level 1?

My suggestions:
1. Charm Person, Grease, Nerveskitter, Silent Image
2. Alter Self, Wings of Cover, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray
3. Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Fly, Dispel Magic->Heart of Water
4. Solid Fog->Ruin Delver's Fortune, Enervation, Dimention Door->Celerity, Greater Mirror Image
5. Arcane Fusion, Teleport-> Greater Blink, Wall of Force, Draconic Polymorph
6. Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, X
7. Shadow Conjuration[Greater], Arcane Spellsurge, Summon Monster 7, Waves of Exhaustion
8. Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun, Greater Arcane Fusion, Mind Blank
9. Shapechange, Time Stop, [who cares, you have shapechange]

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) will significantly help making these decisions easier. You can even put spells like (Greater) Luminous Armor on that.

[Kraklen88]

As regards Fatespinner, it’s one of my favourite sorcerer prestige classes. Poweful without getting books thrown at you like an incantatrix would. (also ranks in proffesion Gambler?? if you can't find a fluff use for that you aren’t trying hard enough!) There is nothing quite like the ability to reroll an unfavourable D20. Fiend Blooded would be next suggestion but you said your DM dislikes evil :(

As for spells for sorcerers your list looks pretty solid. You lack wall spells though. either wall of stone or force, both provide awesome BFC. For sorcerers I prefer Force since my wizard’s don’t get to take it on account of blocking evocation and while not permanent it makes a stronger wall. Also at levels 5 to 6 you have feeblemind, baleful polymorph and disintegrate. That’s quite a lot of single target save or die/lose/massive damage spells when you only really need one of the three, maybe 2. Lose either feeblemind or BP perhaps?

Also be aware that Cloudkill is very much a mook killer spell, 1d4 con to anything with more than 6hd is (in my humble opinion) a bit meh for level 5. if you are concerned about crowd control you have Black Tentacles to fall back on. So i would advise swapping that out for something like SM5 or maybe telekinesis or overland flight, I am afb at the moment but might make more suggestions when i get home.

also on the Mage armour vs Shield discussion, I would make the point that unless your DM arbitralliy gives you the bracers of armour as loot, casting mage armour once or twice a day is a much better allocation of resources than buying the AC items. By all means have both spells if you want try and keep your AC high in low to mid levels but you will often find shields low duration makes it a lot less useful than it first appears.

Apart from that you seem to have your bases covered, particularly in a game with a lot of new players.

Edit: oh and for the blank level 7 slot, isnt spell turning level 7? at those levels people with caster levels are generally the biggest threat around. either that or some kind of divination like greater scrying, as this might be something your group may lack with no full divine casters.

Edit 2 (my god the procrastination from my uni work continues): Wings of flurry is cool, if you want a damage spell I would personally drop polymorph. I know its awesome but its controversial, polymorph causes arguments in a way few other spells do. also whats the appeal of turning into a melee monster if 3/4 of the party is melee focused? either they do their job better than you or worse still you do melee better than the fighters, making them obsolete. its utility uses can largely be made up by combining invisibility and fly.

It is unfortunate with the Fiend Blooded. However Fatespinner, Mindbender, and maybe one other should hold me over.

Good point on the level 5 and 6 spells. I will probably get rid of Baleful Polymorph and replace it with a Wall spell. I like Wall of Stone because it is moldable but the Wall of Force is nice as well.

Thank you for all of the responses. Really helpful and hopefully I have a fun character.

[ddude987]

You could always enter Incantitrix :smallbiggrin:

[Asrrin]

Here is my currently planned loadout for the sorcerer I am running. I find there are a TON of 4th level spells that I really want to use, and in my campaign I plan on using custom Runstaffs and knowstones to fill those out.

0 (9)
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Prestidigitation
Mage Hand
Light
Sonic Snap
Daze
Message
Dancing Lights

1 (5)
Nerveskitter
Magic Missle
Grease
Benign Transposition
True Strike

2 (5)
Wings of cover
Mirror Image
Glitterdust
Ray of Stupidity
Shatter* (swap after getting Dimension Door)
Alter Self* (swap for polymorph)


3 (4)
Ray of Exhaustion
Stinking Cloud
Haste
Dispel Magic* (replace with Greater)

4 (4)
Wings of flurry
Celerity
Dimension Door
Polymorph* (swap for Polymorph any)

Evard's Black Tentacles
Enervation*
Ruin Delver's Fortune*
Orb of (Fire/Acid/Cold/Force)*

5 (4)
Arcane Fusion
Baleful Polymorph* (Swap for polymorph any)
Wall of Force
Cloudkill

6 (3)
Planar Binding
Disintegrate
Dispel Magic, Greater

7 (3)
Arcane Spellsurge
Limited Wish
Arcane Sight, Greater

8 (3)
Greater Arcane Fusion
Polymorph Any Object
Greater Shadow Evocation

9 (3)
Time Stop
Shapechange
Gate

[Thanatosia]

4: stoneskin (buy lots of diamond dust, don't worry about cost it's better than any gear you'd buy, cast at every dungeon entrance)
Go Heart of Earth instead (complete Mage). It's the same spell level, but you get 2x your caster level in temporary hp (max 30) and +8 vs Bullrush/Overrun/Trip attempts for 1hr/caster level. Best of all as a swift action you can activate a short term stoneskin for 1/rnd per level without the material component cost. Once the stoneskin effect ends (either by using up the damage absorb cap or the 1rnd/turn expires) it uses up the heart of earth, but you can just cast it again.

Also, if you combine it with any other heart spell (I'd recommend water for it's ability to convert into a freedom of movement as a swift action), you get partial fortification (25% chance to negate) vs Sneak attacks and critical hits.

If you combine it with all 4 heart spells (Air and Fire are kind of gimpy compared to Earth and Water, so i'm not sure I can fully endorse learning all 4 - but air can be converted into a feather fall effect, wich you already have on your list so you can sub that out if you want to go for the full heart line), you can get full immunity to crits and sneak attacks.

[ericgrau]

Stoneskin can target others who need it more and it benefits more from sorcerer spammability. Heart of earth is nice but it's not really a substitute for stoneskin. It's more like a substitute for false life at higher levels. Which one I'd get depends on how often you're in dungeons and how often you're in wilderness, due to durations. Plus, if you do enter a lot of dungeons, I'd get stoneskin a lot sooner than I'd get heart of earth because it makes the party curbstomp encounters. Heart of earth OTOH is only a self-preservation spell no matter how good it might be at that purpose.

[Sudain]

Sorry if you answered this already(I didn't see it?), but what is your role in the group? Specificly, what can the other characters rely upon you to do?

For example, do you specialize in Battlefield control? Blasting? Divination? Transforming things into to other things? Blocking hostile magic? Summoning? Debuffing? If you specialize in multiple areas - what percentages are is that?

For example: A 50% battle field control, 25% utility/buff, and 25% theme build.
50% of all my spells known would be dedicated towards battle field control(I personally split that up for effects that block line of sight, or restrict movement - and I'd do an even split of that). I would try to sprinkle that out through out my leveling process so roughly 50% of my spells would be BC at any given level. From there I'd select buffs and utility spells that are too good to pass up; again interspersing them through out the leveling process. Then I'd select theme spells or spells like shrink item or explosive runes that just make me squeel with joy.

Don't forget you get an ability to trade out great lower-level spells that don't scale for spells that scale better as you level. For example trading out sleep for magic missile.

If that seems like a lot of work; it's because it is. But you are counting on the big bad fighter to consistently do his fighter thing. They want to know what they can consistently count on you for.

[Ansem]

Am I the only one who finds Sticky Floor better than Grease?

[Amphetryon]

Am I the only one who finds Sticky Floor better than Grease?

Probably not, but it's almost certainly a minority view based on experience. Flatfooted or Prone are generally better conditions to force on an opponent, for one.