Miko Manipulated? (spoilers)

[Aegeus]

Idea: Miko may not have lost her paladinhood.

Basis: Xykon has bought an extremely expensive crystal ball. While looking through the SRD, I found that one variety of crystal ball allows the wielder to communicate telepathically with the target of the scrying, and once per day, implant a suggestion. So, Xykon is watching Miko, and he sees her listening in on Shojo. He implants a suggestion that Shojo is really evil and needs to be stopped right away. Miko is already suspicious, so she goes along with it and smites Shojo. Xykon does a victory dance.

So, this is pretty speculative, but it seems like the sort of plot twist Rich would pull on us.

[Kilbia]

While looking through the SRD, I found that one variety of crystal ball allows the wielder to communicate telepathically with the target of the scrying, and once per day, implant a suggestion.

It'd take her rolling a natural 1 on her Will save, I'm pretty sure. (Paladins, IIRC, get obscene bonuses on their saving throws.) So yes, mathematically possible, but it's just as likely that this is the natural progression of a Lawful Psycho character.

[blackout]

:P Not happenin'. Sorry dude.

[Druid]

It's possible, but honostly an act like this doesn't seam that out of character for Miko.

[TDS]

even if that's true she "grossly violated her code of conduct" doing which causes her to lose her powers whether it was willingly or not... depending on how you read the Ex-Palidan section

[although]

A paladin who commits an evil act falls, even if she was manipulated into the act. Paladins are supposed to be strong-willed and incorruptible, and one who can be duped into acts of evil falls short of this standard.

If she atones for the evil act, though, the gods will probably be more forgiving if she was manipulated or charmed than if she turned to evil of her own volition.

[Raistlin1040]

Doubtful. As a paladin, Miko wouldn't take the lesser of two evils. She'd go after each. She'd never let Xykon tell her what to do unless there was a spell involved.

[Demented]

You can't plant a suggestion on someone over a crystal ball. The range on the spell is just a few feet over 25. You'd need epic casting to make that kind of influence on someone, at that range, without them realizing it.

[TheLamentation]

You can't plant a suggestion on someone over a crystal ball.I direct your attention to the text of the Crystal Ball magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#crystalBall). You most clearly can, if you've bought the right variety.

[Querzis]

I cant believe people are still rationalizing her action. I was sure she was gonna try to kill the OOTS and Shojo in 405 but I never though she would be able to do it! It match her personnality perfectly and I wasnt surprised that she did it, I was just surprised that nobody could stop her. And now I just want Belkar to kill her. It cant be anyone else then Belkar...Poor Shojo. If he dont get rez, I'm gonna write in my sig: «In memory of Lord Shojo, Great ruler of Azure city, killed by a lawfull psycho paladin».

[Setra]

I cant believe people are still rationalizing her action. I was sure she was gonna try to kill the OOTS and Shojo in 405 but I never though she would be able to do it! It match her personnality perfectly and I wasnt surprised that she did it, I was just surprised that nobody could stop her. And now I just want Belkar to kill her. It cant be anyone else then Belkar...Poor Shojo. If he dont get rez, I'm gonna write in my sig: «In memory of Lord Shojo, Great ruler of Azure city, killed by a lawfull psycho paladin».

Oh sure Miko is the Lawful Psycho when she kills one man, Belkar is obviously a good guy when he kills many others. Turns people into hats, and nacho bowls, and is overall just plain evil.

[Algrim Wubble]

Oh sure Miko is the Lawful Psycho when she kills one man, Belkar is obviously a good guy when he kills many others. Turns people into hats, and nacho bowls, and is overall just plain evil.

Well Belkar is also a evil psycho. Anyone who says otherwise is just looking for lame reason to say he isn't. I think right now the fact that him and Miko have been at each other throats for a long time is the big thing. It some form of weird poetic justice that Belkar of all people would be the one to kill Miko... right now I wonder if Belkar would even enjoy it quite as much... after all, he wanted to be the one to make her fall, and Miko went and fell on her own accord.

[Setra]

Well Belkar is also a evil psycho. Anyone who says otherwise is just looking for lame reason to say he isn't. I think right now the fact that him and Miko have been at each other throats for a long time is the big thing. It some form of weird poetic justice that Belkar of all people would be the one to kill Miko... right now I wonder if Belkar would even enjoy it quite as much... after all, he wanted to be the one to make her fall, and Miko went and fell on her own accord.

I just simply dislike how people treat Belkar as better than Miko, I realize it would be somewhat of poetic justice, but I also doubt she is going to die anytime soon.

She is going to die when it is most dramatic, if she dies at all before the story ends.

[TinSoldier]

Oh sure Miko is the Lawful Psycho when she kills one man, Belkar is obviously a good guy when he kills many others. Turns people into hats, and nacho bowls, and is overall just plain evil.You are my new hero.

[Algrim Wubble]

I just simply dislike how people treat Belkar as better than Miko, I realize it would be somewhat of poetic justice, but I also doubt she is going to die anytime soon.

She is going to die when it is most dramatic, if she dies at all before the story ends.

More than likely. And yes. Belkar, while amusing is a complete and utter whackjob. (Though I wonder if he got his wisdom raised would that change anything)

[Archangel62]

To be honest the fact that Belkar is so beloved and Miko so hated might be a great testament to the Giants writing skills. I like to think of Belkar as the Id and Miko as the Ego. We like belkar because there is a nasty little thrill from the idea of letting our impulses run wild. I readily, though somewhat ashamedly, admit that a source of joy for me would be to have a superball in a room with many many breakable objects stacked on each other in an intricate pattern.

I do think that Miko is psychotic, at least at this point, but that's as much because all the rules of the world got turned on their ear for her. Belkar is dangerous but overall Roy is able to keep him more or less not a danger to society by aiming him at more dangerous foes or minions of evil. Belkar would murder for fun but the mark at least has him somewhat controllable right now. Miko might not be evil but she has the potential to cause the most harm right now. It is often said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and I think Miko might be calling for the steamroller now.

[Ave]

Yeah, Belkar made a hat out of his evil twin. The act is definitely evil and repulsive, but the world just became better from it.
Miko killed the ruler of Azure City right before the impending invasion, and turned the whole city into turmoil. Also, she seriously lessened the potential of the Order to deal with Xykon, by recasting the idiotic accusation over them. (They destroyed the gate out of ignorance, just like Miko destroyed Azure City out of ignorance). The difference is that Miko won't learn.

[warmachine]

I suspect a little manipulation as well. Miko wanted Shojo out a long time ago and is deranged enough to see conspiracies everywhere but finding out Shojo is a deceiver isn't quite enough. Almost but not quite. Magic would make sense but paladins have huge saving throws. Miko could still fail a save but the chance is too low to incorporate in a plan. So, I suspect poison. I don't know which one or how she got it but it's my theory.

[Captain van der Decken]

Where is the impression that Paladin's saves are gigantic coming from? They have bad will. Even with charisma to saves, that's still fairly low. I doubt Miko has over 14 charisma anyway.

Of course, the item is only DC 14.

I was thinking something along these lines, though. It seems a little odd that Miko would go so far.

[Alfryd]

Paladins, IIRC, get obscene bonuses on their saving throws.
Monk2/Paladin 14 with cha 16 and divine grace gives 3+3+4 = +10 on will saving throws. Assuming the SRD description, she has to roll a 4 or better. So, unlikely, but not quite beyond the pale.

It's possible, but honostly an act like this doesn't seam that out of character for Miko.
It wasn't entirely in character either. She's always been marginally fond of and obedient toward Shojo. A suggestion spell would definitely tip the balance, even if it's not stringently required.

Paladins are supposed to be strong-willed and incorruptible, and one who can be duped into acts of evil falls short of this standard.
Bull****. A level 2 paladin can't be blamed if a level 23 sorcerer casts dominate person on him. It's supposed to eliminate a potential loophole for misbehaviour.

She'd never let Xykon tell her what to do unless there was a spell involved.
Uh... according to this theory, there IS a spell involved.

It some form of weird poetic justice that Belkar of all people would be the one to kill Miko...
He. Can't. Deal. Lethal. Damage. In. A. City.
Pay. Attention.

...Miko as the Ego.
Actually, Superego. But it's not that simple at all.

([The Order] destroyed the gate out of ignorance, just like Miko destroyed Azure City out of ignorance). The difference is that Miko won't learn.
That hasn't happened yet.

[Kriel]

He. Can't. Deal. Lethal. Damage. In. A. City.
Pay. Attention.

At this point I doubt he will care. For him, I think that becoming nigh-paralyzed would be a small price to pay to kill Miko.

[Liquid]

She did this on her own.

And the most important proof of all:
If she was the victim of a suggestion spell, she would have swirly eyes.
Period. :)

[Druid]

Belkar and Miko are held to different standards for a good reason. Belkar is chaotic evil. The giant has said so himself. No one is claiming that Belkar is a good guy for turning Yik Yik into a hat, but it's to be expected. Miko is a paladin. She is supposed to be a beacon of what is right and good in the world. When she goes and cuts down her lord based on a story she's concocted in her head despite a lack of evidence it's a big deal.

[Algrim Wubble]

He. Can't. Deal. Lethal. Damage. In. A. City.
Pay. Attention.



He. Could. Kill. Her. Outside. The .Stinking. City. Or. Maybe. Lord. Shojo's. Death. Could. Invalidate. The. Mark. Of. Justice. Or. Maybe. Belkar. Will. Drop. A. Chandelier. On. Her...

Seriously, being a smart aleck in your post is neither convincing or proper.

I'm well aware of Belkars inability to deal lethel damage in a city.

[Alfryd]

If she was the victim of a suggestion spell, she would have swirly eyes.
Period. :)
Actually, that's Charm person. Suggestion causes glowing eyes apparently.
Still, can't argue with that. :)


He. Could. Kill. Her. Outside. The .Stinking. City. Or. Maybe. Lord. Shojo's. Death. Could. Invalidate. The. Mark. Of. Justice. Or. Maybe. Belkar. Will. Drop. A. Chandelier. On. Her... Seriously, being a smart aleck in your post is neither convincing or proper.
But failing to substantiate your argument then taking offense when you're rebuffed is? Seriously, I'm just tired of people ignoring the Mark. Not that there's anything to suggest the above can happen.

[arkwei]

Actually, that's Charm person. Suggestion causes glowing eyes apparently.
Still, can't argue with that. :)


Sometimes it is swirly, as in the case of black dragon killed by V. I think the Giant might have loosened the standards a little.

[SmartAlec]

He. Can't. Deal. Lethal. Damage. In. A. City.
Pay. Attention.


But he can. His curse doesn't trigger until he violates the terms of his parole. One of the terms of his parole is that he can't deal lethal damage to someone while he's in a city.

That doesn't mean he can't do it; it just means if he does do it, he'll suffer. But he can still do it. And in Miko's case, I wouldn't be surprised if he decided it was worth it.

[Setra]

I'm somewhat confused, when they mean Lethal Damage, does that mean damage capable of being lethal (ie. Any attack with his weapons) or damage that kills?

You'd think it might be the former, as they want to prevent more death.

[StudlyDuck]

Keep in mind, Belkar's primary goal concerning Miko may not necessarily be to kill her. He wants her to suffer. Attacking Shojo probably cost her her paladin class abilities. And Belkar really has no reason to care what happens to Shojo. I think it's more likely that he's just going to sit back and laugh while the others have to clean up the mess.

[DaMullet]

I'm somewhat confused, when they mean Lethal Damage, does that mean damage capable of being lethal (ie. Any attack with his weapons) or damage that kills?

You'd think it might be the former, as they want to prevent more death.

Lethal damage, as opposed to Subdual Damage, is a defined term in DnD.
Essentially, Lethal Damage is any damage made with a weapon, or by anyone with the proper feats to deal it by hand.

[ElfLad]

Well, hell, of course Miko was manipulated. She was Good, whether you like it or not, and for her to fall while remaining in character, the plot had to be horribly contrived for her to hear the worst possible side of the story, and come in at exactly the wrong time, like, at least eight times.

This will probably have some excellent character development, but the plot had to be contorted and forced to get to this point.

[Querzis]

Oh sure Miko is the Lawful Psycho when she kills one man, Belkar is obviously a good guy when he kills many others. Turns people into hats, and nacho bowls, and is overall just plain evil.

When the hell did I say that Belkar was a good guy? It just really seems fit that he give the final blow to Miko, especially after the Oracle. Seriously Belkar is evil...whats your point? I would hate him as a person but he is a great character. Now Miko, by killing Shojo while still thinking she is doing the right thing is just doing a mockery of Law and good. Belkar kill people for fun, of course its more evil then her but she killed a great and good leader because of her delusion and her wicked sense of justice and good, cant you even see why I hate her so much? I'm chaotic so mocking the law doesnt bother me that much, its more the part were she mock all the good in this world, but I would have though what she did would annoy Lawfull people more then anything else.

[Archangel62]

As a side note, I think that Belkar is an interesting character, then again I'm also a big Raistlin fan and a fan of Elric so maybe I'm just a little strange that way. A note is this, I never claimed belkar was good (though for a long time I thought he was Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic evil, but meh)

Miko was manipulated but some of it also comes from her own background. Miko doesn't analyze very often, probably because she believes that actions are more important and because she doesn't want to risk getting corrupted. Unfortunately that also makes her inflexible and difficult to work with. What Miko did was evil, at least in my opinion, but it also did a lot more damage than belkar could ever dream of.

Miko just murdered the sovereign leader, and she has already shown herself to be unwilling to accept any other view of reality than what she believes. She could end up causing a civil war, and yes maybe the paladins won't follow her, but if the paladins, or at least a significant number, refuse to follow Hinjo then the city is going to start shaking itself apart. Also, how many of them might start questioning the taboos placed?

FInally, if Miko did kill Shojo she also killed the only person with a full, working knowledge of the gates. This just set back any hopes that the guard or the order have of maintaining the situation. Hinjo might be willing to listen to the Order for them to explain it, but Miko won't, and frankly I'm not sure how many paladins would want to hear it either. (After all, they might not think that the order is ACTIVELY working for Xykon but they could be dupes...or in some way controlled or blackmailed into service)

[Ampersand]

Belkar and Miko are held to different standards for a good reason. Belkar is chaotic evil.

Actually, it's because Belkar is a PC/protagonist, and they get a ream of "Get Out of Responsability Free" tickets upon creation that they dole out to audience whenever they do something questionable. NPCs, sadly, don't get this dispention.

Another good example is Roy versus Eugene. Roy is at least as condesating and outright cruel to others as his father, but because he's a protagonist he's "funny " instead of a "jerk".

[Demented]

Just because the idea puts Miko in the best light and Belkar in the worst doesn't mean it is right.

Belkar is chaotic evil, therefore everyone expects him to act chaotic evil, which he does, therefore all is right in the world. Same thing as for Redcloak and Xykon, which are obviously NPC antagonists.

Roy isn't funny. Funny is what Belkar, Elan, V, and Haley do to him, and the fact that he's the one who usually ends up apologizing. And he spends a lot of time apologizing and trying desperately to make up for his attitude. Eugene, on the other hand, hasn't shown anything but an overwhelming concern for vengeance on Xykon. (Roy'd probably be a lot happier as chaotic good, as much as he's irritated by authority figures. Then again, those authority figures generally happen to have an alignment of Lawful Snarky.)

If anyone benefits from "Get Out of Responsibility Free" tickets, it would be Elan and Haley.

[Alfryd]

Essentially, Lethal Damage is any damage made with a weapon...
Really? I thought you could inflict normal weapon damage, but with a -4 penalty to attack rolls?

[donkyhotay]

I doubt miko was manipulated into killing shojo (coincidence was probably just DM fiat like the rainstorm when miko first met OOTS). However I do believe that there is a very good chance xykon is aware of this new development (due to the wide screen scrying crystal he bought awhile back) and if miko remains unrepentant of her recent coup he will probably help her replace her lost paladin powers.