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reorith
2007-01-26, 09:34 PM
i dm a campaign and everyone has started at 8th level. the cleric is a dude that refuses to power game. i explained to him about divine metamagic + empower and such. after that he was like "thats cool. i think i'll take disciple of the sun and true believer" is there anything wrong with that?

Arbitrarity
2007-01-26, 09:40 PM
Nooo... not power-gaming isn't a problem, unless you plan the encounters for everyone to powergame. A lack of cheese does not a problem make...

Count Chumleigh
2007-01-26, 09:56 PM
I fail to see how a player who chooses to have his cleric not take advantage of divine metacheese is a problem. I especially fail to see how this is a problem in light of how you, the DM, are aware that divine metacheese exists, and therefore are prepared for it in the event that your player changes his mind. Unless you were planning on this being a powergaming campaign, I'd say your player just saved you a tremendous headache.
That said, the mere fact that he turned down the Phenomenal Cosmic Power(tm) of divine metacheese may mean that he's out to intentionally gimp his character, in which case you should be prepared to put on the daddy pants and give him the "I told you so" talk. Not that I have any conclusive evidence that this is the case; this is just one of those things to keep in the back of your head as you prep for the game.

Cheers,
--Count Chumleigh

reorith
2007-01-26, 10:13 PM
i just kinda thought everyone made metacheese powergaming clerics

Rigeld2
2007-01-26, 11:51 PM
I've run one to see the Zillaness... and then went back to my Fighters to have fun.

Although my current favorite (for fun) is my Warlock. Or my Halfling Rogue/Master Thrower, I cant decide.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-26, 11:56 PM
Is... is there anything wrong? No, I wouldn't say so. What exactly is it that you were thinking was wrong? He wanted to do something that is different from what you thought was the norm. That's... that's not wrong. I mean, they give us classes with options so that we can do whatever we like with them -- if all clerics are supposed to use Divine Metamagic, then they'd come with it. Just because it is the most powerful option or whatever doesn't mean that it MUST be used.

Unless there's some deeper issue that's making this a problem (i.e., "I'm trying to run a power campaign and I'm afraid one of my players is gimping his character," or something similar), there's nothing wrong with making a suboptimal -- or even a ludicrous choice. It's not "wrong" to use Monkey Grip, it's not "wrong" to play a spellcaster with LA, and it's not "wrong" to take the Metamind prestige class. A bad choice? Perhaps. But not wrong.

Just because it is frequently discussed that such-and-such is the only viable option for a certain class, doesn't make the other options wrong. They may be less than optimal, but unless you're trying to run a power campaing... that's fine.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-27, 12:01 AM
i just kinda thought everyone made metacheese powergaming clerics

I don't, because I don't really know how. But I gather it has to do with Turn Undead and I don't get many of those a day.

Sulecrist
2007-01-27, 01:11 AM
I don't, because I don't really know how. But I gather it has to do with Turn Undead and I don't get many of those a day.

I hadn't either, but I got curious, so I checked it out.

There're these Sunstick dealies from Libris Mortis. They give you somewhere between 3 and 5 bonus turning attempts a day, and cost about half as much as something that cost 15,000 gp. You combine those with Divine Metamagic, which requires, conveniently enough, as many turning attempts as you'd have with Sunsticks (lightsticks?) and Charisma 10 to make Persistent Spell totally free.

So you wake up, burn a certain number of turn attempts (the number may or may not be equal to the number of letters in "certain" (or "letters")), and become equal to a Fighter.

And then you cast spells.

EDIT: Or you can have 18 Charisma, which is cool, because it means that there's more to your character than making the Fighter cry. Unless you're in one of those roll-5d6-reroll-ones-and-twos-and-pick-the-highest-three campaigns, in which case you can just laugh and laugh and laugh.

For godly servants, Clerics make me feel reeeeally dirty.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-27, 01:19 AM
Charisma 10? Yeah, still doesn't work for me. But I'll take a look at Libris Mortis, a friend's got it.

Sulecrist
2007-01-27, 01:27 AM
Charisma 10? Yeah, still doesn't work for me. But I'll take a look at Libris Mortis, a friend's got it.

Heh, 10's actually the second lowest Charisma score I've ever had. And generally I play melee characters--I just like being able to communicate.

(The lowest was on a Dwarf in WarCraft D20. A Scout. His Charisma was 4.)

Even if you don't want to go megacheese it's good. You can get it to work with Empower. Or Maximize.

Zincorium
2007-01-27, 04:47 AM
i just kinda thought everyone made metacheese powergaming clerics

Nah, clerics are a solid, easy to play class w/out any of the cheese. That a form of cheese unique to them exists just opens up the possiblity that they can be cheesy too, it doesn't mean that they're supposed to be.

Generally I strongly recommend that people voluntarily limit the amount of actual cheese that their characters use, but I do a lot of 'thought experiments' myself to either come up with nigh undefeatable characters or try and make something that's not particularly useful actually good.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-27, 09:27 AM
I've played more than one effective cleric and I've never needed to use any of the divine metamagic feats...actually, I've rarely, if ever, taken a metamagic feat. Most of my clerics have focused on their deities portfolios, none of which have included magic or healing. There have always been other, more suitable feats out there that better reflected what I wanted them to be able to do.

True Believer is a nice feat...as long as your DM provides you with the expected half-price, kick-butt, magic item. Or, you're going to multi-class over to Pious Templar for the Mettle ability (which works really well for you, particularly after stacking the FORT and WILL bonuses), cool swift Paladin Spells like Rhino's Rush, and later bonuses. And, while I doubt I'd take it if those other reasons didn't exist, that floating, stacking, save bonus comes in handy more often than I ever thought.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-27, 09:33 AM
Yeah, I have a cleric that's not cheesy but still great. His feats are Zen Archery (Dex 10, Wis 19), Track (has survival as a class skill), Extend Spell (NOT as a pre-req for Persistant) and Reach Spell.
No cheese, but solid and good fun.

ReluctantDragon
2007-01-27, 09:45 AM
I'd say the fellow dming reads these boards too much and buys into the

"NO BALANCE, CODZILLA, CASTERS ARE TEH UBER!!111!!1one@"

that plagues these boards.

As everyone else has stated, there is nothing wrong with not using the divine metamagic route. Its all about taste, setup and cohesion. Everything else will take care of itself.

Rigeld2
2007-01-27, 10:02 AM
"NO BALANCE, CODZILLA, CASTERS ARE TEH UBER!!111!!1one@"
Its a fact , not an opinion. Now, do those of us who recognize that fact only play full casters? No. As I said, I normally enjoy the Fighter, a class I have called useless and underpowered many times. But that doesnt matter. Fun matters.

Zincorium
2007-01-27, 07:42 PM
I'd say the fellow dming reads these boards too much and buys into the

"NO BALANCE, CODZILLA, CASTERS ARE TEH UBER!!111!!1one@"

that plagues these boards.

As everyone else has stated, there is nothing wrong with not using the divine metamagic route. Its all about taste, setup and cohesion. Everything else will take care of itself.

1. Codzilla is cheesy.
2. Clerics don't have to be.
3. Game balance keeps things fun for everyone...
4. ...But it can be fun without it
5. If you get that impression, it's usually because someone tries to 'prove' that it isn't so, gets shown the math that's been developed and improved on through hundreds of threads about the exact same thing, people start screaming 'but I don't play it brokenly, so it's not broken!" the thread dies, goes to the second or third page, and the cycle continues.
6. Don' believe the hype

PinkysBrain
2007-01-27, 08:34 PM
I don't see anything wrong with those feats. Just as long as he doesn't just take true believer because he is all "oh look at me, I'm so hard core for my god I have a useless feat on my character sheet to prove it". Because that is pure metagaming.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-27, 11:35 PM
I may be wrong (In fact, I probably am, considering I don't own the books), but aren't those two prerequsites for the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC with auto-maximize all healing spells? Methinks he may be going for a different sort of cheeze...

CuthroatMcGee
2007-01-28, 01:50 AM
If this guy wants to play his cleric NOT to overpower everyone, then I say let him do it! The gaming world needs less powergaming clerics.

TheOOB
2007-01-28, 02:16 AM
Theres a difference between making a weak character, and making a character who is not obsessivly overpowered. I for one do not use the Divine Metamagic feat(outside of compitition), I think it is overpowered and broken and shouldn't be allowed, even if the DM allows it I still won't take it. For the same reasons I don't cast polymorph (or if I do it's purly a utility spell, like turning into a rat to hide.

Now if the character is doing crap like starting with a 13 wis and using monket grip, you have a problum, but you don't have to do much to make a cleric a valuable member of a party. As long as the cleric buffs his party, heals, and whacks a few monsters with their weapon of choice their doing their job.