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Alberic Strein
2014-02-04, 07:43 AM
Hey guys! For once I'm not posting as a DM, but as a player in quite a predicament.

It seems I'm That Guy.

You know, the guy that brings a bazooka to a fistfight (or, more accurately, a grenade launcher to a gunfight), who solos the entire scenario, etc, etc, etc...

We're using Shadowrun 4th Edition.

I didn't try and make an optimized character. I made him good at driving cars and using a grenade launcher. The issue is that my GM doesn't know how to react to it, and implement it in the campaign. So he goes and pulls out the nerf bat... By extensive, extensive, rule 0 usage.

For example, he finds me having a 500m reach broken, which I can understand. So he lets me have the reach, but rules out the imaging scope. So any kind of rifle can have it, most rocket launchers (not missile launchers, ROCKETS, as in, a grenade with a firecracker showed up it's behind) come equipped with it, but grenade launchers? No can do. There go a few dice penalty.

Next, he took out his magnifying glass and went over my weapon. In SR4 you can have accessories (like said imaging scope) top-barrel, barrel, and underbarrel. Which is specified in the accessory's description. Of course, there are accessories (spare clips, etc...) which have no link whatsoever with the barrel, and thus are noted with "----" in the accessory's description.

Example, a folding stock won't take up any of the three slots.

I use a smartgun system, which can be internal (the weapon is picked apart and wired) or external (like adding a mini, mini, mini computer top or under the barrel). The internal doubles the weapon's price, the external is cheap. The advantage of the internal is that it takes no accessory slot.

Here goes my GM ruling that sinces it's internal, it is barrel mounted by default.

Of course, my weapon cannot use barrel mounted equipment.

But wait! Grenade launchers can fit top/barrel/under accessories. But mine is pistol sized, by the description, and thus cannot equip barrel mounted accessories. Wait! Pistol-sized? So it must follow pistol rules to determine which slots can be used. Pistols can only use top-barreled accessories, so he rules that I can only use top-barrel accessories with my weapon, despite the actual rules and description of the weapon stipulating otherwise.

And THAT was after ruling that my enhanced reflexes (Reaction+2, stipulates stacking with everything) wouldn't stack with my wired reflexes (Reaction+2, Initiative pass+2, stipulates NOT stacking with other Initiative enhancers) as far as Initiative (Reaction+Intuition) is concerned.

That's the third helping of nerfs, I'm expecting the fourth batch soon, with the arrival of enemies "which won't be damaged by grenades" according to my GM.

I tire of having the rules bent over time and time again to screw me over.

I also happen to be some sort of a rules lawyer. Rule 0 is fine. If the GM wants something to be ruled in a different way than usually, or as said in the rulebook because it makes things interesting, is logical with his setting, or any other reason than simply screwing me over, the GM should use Rule 0. If Rule 0 is at any moment an experience enhancer, it should be used. If there is a rule and the GM is not against using it, then the applicable rule should be used. And used correctly. When another player rolls and I notice that we were using a -1 when rules stipulate that it's a -2, I wait for the roll to finish, and once it's my turn, I put the rule to light and stomach the negative modifier myself. Because if there is no reason to stray away from the rules, I reckon we shouldn't. All that means I have some very, very heated mails with my GM when he decides to bend rules to screw me over. Said mails infuriate me quite a bit. Even more when I am accused of bending rules backward, and of abusing a rule oversight (aforementionned imaging scope on a grenade launcher) I have a tendency to take it badly. I am always careful not to step too much on my GM's authority while we game. When I notice a mistake in the ruling, I never use it to tackle another player's fun, and I always make sure that I take every single malus applicable to my actions. So being accused of taking advantage of rules, or of a ruling oversight rubs me the wrong way.

Not answering the damn mails, not even starting the damn mails to start and smoothe things over out of gaming hours, and simply taking the constant nerfs, one after another and rules be damned, during play time and that without saying anything would infuriate me even more.

So, what should I do?

Krazzman
2014-02-04, 08:08 AM
I would say... talk to the group.

Ask the players if they were annoyed by your SGL-TMS (Super Grenade Launcher - Turbo Mass 'Splosions) or generally by your character.
Then talk to the GM why he feels the need to constantly bash on your character. If you yourself have possible solutions tell them to him.

Example:
Charging Paladin on a horse in 3.5. Gameworld had no Lances. Instead of more intelligent enemies we get bigger and tougher enemies and so on.
After multiple times of telling the DM how to counteract this (enclosed space, unsuitable terrain etc.) he just ended the campaign because he wasn't having fun dming.

This is one thing we don't want to run into with your current game.

Tell him his nerfs are dumb because they don't really tackle the problem and if he doesn't see it ask him for a rebuild. But work with him this time.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-04, 08:39 AM
For players, there are two, one with which I did a scenario with only the two of us. He had rolled a battle mage and...

He could have not been there.

The issue is that there were scenes, battles, in which he had no vision, and thus no magical powers to use. During that time, I was laying the hurt with my grenades.

The scenario was battle centric. The second fight, he sent my character first with levitation and... I dropped right in front of the first of the three bosses, a pretty damn huge cyborg... Which I schooled in one turn, before taking my time finishing the rest of his cronies. By the time he decided to join me down, there were no enemies left in the main room. Remained two rooms, with one boss each. His character had a negative trait that, on a failed save, forces him to be contradictory. So when I said left, he said right. So we went to solo our respective bosses. He had to flee after an attack. I narrowly defeated mine unscratched.

He took exception to that.

So his character started doing drifts with my car... I understood he had taken it and left... It had been a long day... I kinda called the cops on him. And then he was shot trying to fly away. It was only stun damage, but he still spent a week in jail.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure he feels strongly about my character being nerfed. That and the fact I kinda hit him with a grenade.

The other player, honestly, doesn't seem to care.

Kalmageddon
2014-02-04, 09:02 AM
I don't know Shadowrun that well, but why don't you suggest a way to counter your character to your DM instead of complaining about the nerfs? You are obviously a problem in this campaign by your own admission, either stick with the nerfs, roll another more adequate character or talk to your GM and work out a solution by improving the difficulty of the encounters.

Delta
2014-02-04, 09:06 AM
I'd seriously recommend just giving in and giving up the grenade pistols, because, as far as physical combat goes, those things are the nightmare of any Shadowrun GM who ever had a PC use them extensively.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 09:23 AM
The only way to control weapons in a cyberpunk game like Shadowrun is realistic difficulties in transport and storage, and consequences to using them. Possession and use of assault rifles, machine guns, and explosives (beyond hand grenades, anyway) should just be too much of a hassle to be worth it in most circumstances.

Your GM is not being very smart about it (and is, in fact, in the wrong in several ways), but this is a big problem for GMs who haven't figured out effective ways to control it, and it absolutely can wreck the game.

Just play nice and use regular guns (with stick-n-shock, obviously). It's the easiest way, and really, it's not worth making trouble over.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-04, 09:31 AM
@Kalmageddon : Thing is, I'm not that good at Shadowrun, which is why I had no idea grenade launchers were broken in any fashion as I started, and now that it's started, I have no idea how to counter it. Or, to be more precise, how to specifically counter it. Two enemies approching from different directions and opening fire could be more than enough to take me down. But besides not packing enemies tightly together, and not putting a lot of close combatants, I don't really see anything specific. I don't even see the need for nerfs if he uses this strategy. He didn't up till now, so there must be some kind of issue of which I am not aware. And I don't mind being nerfed if the nerf is smart and logical, or even merely pointing out a rule I'm not aware of. I feel that what is happening is not nerfing my campaign endangering damage output. It's letting me have that output, then nitpicking about every little thing and pulling out the most obscure and bent out of shape interpretation of the rules possible.

@Delta : New to Shadowrun, what makes them completely nightmarish?

Thrudd
2014-02-04, 09:39 AM
If it were me running the game, a grenade launcher would be severely restricted by ammunition, as well as situational conditions. You can only carry so much on you, and they are expensive and not easily available. Whoever is paying for your gear isn't going to hand those out willy-nilly. Grenades are not the appropriate weapon for close work, or situations where there is more than one enemy spaced out with cover. You won't always be able to be at proper range and have enemies grouped together where you can wipe them out easily. I would not change the rules for your equipment, but I would enforce more realistic restrictions on its use, as well as making sure not every encounter could be solved with a single well placed grenade. Sure, you can have your grenade launcher, but grenades are going to be hard to come by. You will need to be selective in when you use one, because once you are out it might be a while before you get any more. Part of the GM's problem may be that he is too lenient in the RP department, or poor in the tactics department, and is trying to make up for it by changing the rules for the weapon. For example: How many grenades did you have? How did you use a grenade on a cyborg that was right in front of you without damaging yourself, too? At what range are all these enemies that you were able to use grenades on them, don't they have any cover? Seems like a poorly conceived scenario or poorly utilized enemies. It's expected for your grenade launcher to make a big bang once in a while, when the situation is right, but it shouldn't be able to solve all or even most problems.

Red Fel
2014-02-04, 09:43 AM
It's one thing when a DM sets up the nerfs or limits in advance. For example, "No grenade launchers," or, "You can use grenade launchers, but subject to the following limitations." In my experience, as long as a DM is upfront about expectations - even if it hoses my original character concept - I can build a new character before gameplay starts, and get on with it.

It seems that this DM got overwhelmed by how accidentally awesome your character was, and attempted to "correct," resulting in the nerfs you describe. I agree that, to put it charitably, this is problematic.

Ultimately, here are your options:
1. Suck it up. The DM is law; deal with it.
2. Talk to the DM, and seek clemency. Explain that you didn't know you were making something so overpowered. Offer that, if he reinstates the old rules and prevents future nerfs, you will make an effort not to be so overwhelming.
3. Talk to the DM, and seek a rebuild. If grenade launchers were one of the two fundamental components of this character (the other being "I drive the car"), and he has nerfed them away, you're left with the getaway driver. That's not terribly satisfying. Had you known you'd be left with the getaway driver when you started, you probably wouldn't have built the same character. So seek a rebuild.
4. Bail. If this is the character you want, and the DM plans to nerf it into the floor; if you're not able to suck it up, and not willing to talk it out; maybe it's time to find a new table. (Personally, I consider this a last resort, but it is technically an option, so I'm listing it for the sake of completeness.)

Those are basically your options; deal, negotiate for lenity, negotiate for rebuild, or bail. Note that two of your options involve talking to the DM; there's a reason for that. Talking is, generally speaking, the best solution, and the one I recommend in this situation.

When you talk to the DM, have your options set up. If you're seeking clemency, have a list of proposed actions you will take in order to ensure that you will not dominate. If you're seeking a rebuild, have it in hand to show the DM that he has nothing to fear. In fact, have both, just to be safe; if he rejects the one, suggest the other.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 09:51 AM
If it were me running the game

This is a lot of excellent, specific, and practical advice along the lines I was thinking.

The GM's problem is probably thinking about the game as if were Dungeons & Dragons. Cyberpunk combat is, to me, about outmaneuvering and completely obliterating your opponent without ever getting in a fair fight. A grenade launcher can be a great way to do that. So are pipebombs, mines, and tripwires. Sniper rifles. Bombs under cars. And so on. It isn't about "appropriate challenges" - indeed the whole point, to me, is that the players have to figure out how to overcome situations and opponents where going in guns blazing would get them obliterated.

There's a relevant maxim: "If the PCs have it, the NPCs can have it."

Kalmageddon
2014-02-04, 10:29 AM
There's a relevant maxim: "If the PCs have it, the NPCs can have it."

This could also backfire horribly though, making the PCs go for bigger weapons, then the NPCs follow and sooner or later even a security guard will be packing enough firepower to level a city.
From a GM point of view, the best way to deal with problematic equipment is:
1- restricting it IC through difficulties in acquiring/mantaining said equipment like: if it's THAT good, obviously demand for it will be high and prices might skyrocket and the police or another relevant organization might want to monitor the distribution of said equipment in order for it not to end up in the wrong hands.
2- Carefully plan every fight in order for the NPCs to have some kind of advantage, like heavy cover, appropriate numerical advantage with flanking enemies, ambushes and other dirty tricks that the PCs have to react with something more clever then just heavy firepower.
If I'm not misinterpreting Shadowrun, it's the kind of game where if you find yourself in a fair fight against equal opponents either you or the enemy has screwed up at some point.

LibraryOgre
2014-02-04, 11:22 AM
I'd go with "Rework or retire the character."

For one thing... grenades. On shadowruns. Your character is no one's friend. He is a walking pile of collateral damage.

That said, you could suggest some countermeasures to your GM... like "Once people start using grenades, the guards call in SWAT"... which in Shadowrun means hard armor, heavy weapons, and spellcasters. Heck, even blast barriers (like a table with a good barrier rating) can really cut the damage of grenades.

Delta
2014-02-04, 11:43 AM
@Delta : New to Shadowrun, what makes them completely nightmarish?

They combine the concealability and usability of a pistol combined with the damage potential of grenades, which can lead to pretty ridiculous levels of overkill.

If I were the GM, I'd try to play up the "secondary" consequences of using grenades as your primary weapon. People using handguns is one thing, the world of Shadowrun is a dangerous place, but once you start using grenades (or any other kind of military overkill) in urban areas, people will take notice, the collateral damage will be extreme.

Nothing bad about having a grenade launcher for extreme emergencies, but as a primary weapon? I'd recommend a regular heavy pistol.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 11:53 AM
If I were the GM, I'd try to play up the "secondary" consequences of using grenades as your primary weapon. People using handguns is one thing, the world of Shadowrun is a dangerous place, but once you start using grenades (or any other kind of military overkill) in urban areas, people will take notice, the collateral damage will be extreme.

Yeah. Basically, it's about the damage potential and collateral damage. A shoot-out with pistols or even shotguns/SMGs, in the right part of town, is one thing. A corp can probably suppress it if it happens on their turf. But once we're talking military-grade hardware - whether grenades (especially launchers), machine guns, or assault rifles - and especially super-concealable weapon of similar destructive capacity, it's going to end up on the news and there's going to be a police task force looking for you. Only a corp that controls the entire city would be able to stop that, and in that case they'd have their own strong interest in catching you. Plus, "someone shot the place up with a grenade launcher" is going to connect all of your gigs to each other, making the cops' / bounty hunters' / corps' job of catching you much easier.

Red Fel
2014-02-04, 12:03 PM
Plus, "someone shot the place up with a grenade launcher" is going to connect all of your gigs to each other, making the cops' / bounty hunters' / corps' job of catching you much easier.

Plus, it makes your ability to score gigs harder - who's going to hire mercs who leave a calling card shaped like a crater?

Spore
2014-02-04, 12:03 PM
I have had some good experiences with dropping some obvious hints to my character's weaknesses. I also play an ubercharger in a game of PF and he is very good against clunky huge ground targets with massive HP. I solo'ed several encounters with those types of enemies. Flying targets however are my achilles heel.

I then drop some things like: "Boy, I sure am glad that this dragon didn't have enough space to fly or I would've been really screwed."

Alberic Strein
2014-02-04, 01:16 PM
Actually, the overkill was the intended design of the character.

Plan A : Not a single shot of any weapon is fired
Plan B : End the fight immediatly through scarily superior firepower.

Again, lots of good ideas. I will give the whole "voicing my concerns about my lack of ammo" some serious thought. I can't carry a lot of grenades, and my grenade launcher has a pretty low ammo capacity. So instead of doing the math in my head and fearing going out of ammo, voicing it and letting the other players and my GM know that my "awesome time" is not perpetual, and quite close to ending actually, might be a big step in the right direction.

Besides the low ammo capacity and the difficulty to get more grenades, I guess I should try to slip hints to my GM about the possible negative consequences of using such weaponry. Which, in turn, could have the interesting consequence of shifting my ammunition type towards flash-bang grenades, which leave no bodies and no structural damage. The fact that I am more easily rocognizable by my enemies should also be brought up.

However, due to the nature of Shadowrun, I don't think the point about having a harder time scoring gigs should apply. Our employers don't care if we're known, or recognizable, after all, we're deniable assets. As long as we don't compromise them, they don't care.

Besides, sometimes you need to send a message :smallcool:

Same thing about collateral damage, I'm picking up a secondary weapon for urban zones, but some runs hinge completely on collateral damage. Heck, some chase sequences do too.

The thing is, in two games I played with this character, the nerfs already started piling up, I don't know if all that will suffice slowing down the barrage, or if something will be left of my character by the time he realizes it might not be warranted anymore.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 01:31 PM
Plan B : End the fight immediatly through scarily superior firepower.

Fortunately, stick-n-shock does that with a lot less KABOOM. It's not an obvious trick for a new player, but the short of it is that stick-n-shock rounds are the best thing you can fire and take down armored targets so easily it's stupid.

If you pull that, though, except your GM to nerf stick-n-shock, too - I would do that at the outset!


The thing is, in two games I played with this character, the nerfs already started piling up, I don't know if all that will suffice slowing down the barrage, or if something will be left of my character by the time he realizes it might not be warranted anymore.

Ultimately, it's an issue with your GM. He doesn't see the problems coming, he can't think of other ways to compensate, he feels like you're being too successful, etc. All huge GM problems that he needs to grow out of through experience.

He's going to keep nerfing things until he learns better ways to run games.

Rosstin
2014-02-04, 01:31 PM
I would try rolling a new character and see what happens. Optimize it as usual but in an entirely different direction (and try not to make it too flashy.)

That's a sort of "nuke it from orbit" approach but you'll learn whether the DM hates you or your character.

In Shadowrun it's usually NBD if a new character shows up because of the mission-based structure.

Driderman
2014-02-04, 02:05 PM
If you go around exploding things every time you're on a run, how come the Shadowrun equivalent of anti-terror units haven't looked into you yet?
I mean, one thing is shots getting fire, or infiltrations happening. That doesn't necessarily attract that much attention, but explosions have a tendency to attract a lot more, and possibly being considered "acts of homeland terrorism" or something equally sinister in the news, which would likely facilitate a quick and deadly response.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-04, 03:00 PM
@Rhynn : The important was the KABOOM part xD It was not about killing everything deader than dead with ruthless efficiency, but to rule through terror in a deliberately deadly and flashy way.

Thanks for the tip too, but I'll try not having my GM face anything overpowered again.

Fun fact though : When the GM and I played a Shadowrun game together (another player was GMing this time) he rolled with a PhysAd with 20 attack dice and... Stick'n Shock rounds. He actually managed to kill someone in two stun attacks.

@Driderman : Well, it's about property. I exploded a yakuza hideout, meaning I got the yakuza on my behind, and the strike teams of their corporate allies, but no one else is bothered to care. "Homeland" is for a big part, an outdated concept. Also, a shadowrunner's identity is exposed when someone rats him out. Genetic material is a terrible, terrible thing to leave where you made a run, but technically most runners have no identity, so as long as no one gives the identity they're using, or that there is no database evidence linking two identities, you're safe. And even if Ares pieces things together, the Yakuza won't have access to that information, etc...

In other words, since you don't technically exist, you can't have strike teams sent on your trail.

Once your existence is proven, however...

@Aster Azul : Rolled a Face with barely any weapon skill, I'll see how it turns out.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 03:06 PM
@Rhynn : The important was the KABOOM part xD It was not about killing everything deader than dead with ruthless efficiency, but to rule through terror in a deliberately deadly and flashy way.

That is, in reality, a really bad idea - or doing it with explosives is, at least.

The actual way to inflict terror tends to be personal brutality, like decapitations and needless violence, not just explosions that draw the attention of special forces and the military etc. (Of course your explosives are most likely to have been stolen from the military.)


Fun fact though : When the GM and I played a Shadowrun game together (another player was GMing this time) he rolled with a PhysAd with 20 attack dice and... Stick'n Shock rounds. He actually managed to kill someone in two stun attacks.

Yeah, I'm smelling more and more "new GM struggling to control things." He's fine with the classic OP tactics as a player, but once they mean he doesn't get to have things go the way he wanted, it's the nerfhammer.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-04, 03:31 PM
@Rhynn :Yes, I would rather agree with you about my GM. It's not like he wants to purposely ruin my character, or some of it's aspects, but his nerfhammer seems to be lacking some accuracy.

About terror, in the 21st century real world, it's true. However, in the Shadowrun universe things are different. Of course, there is maintaining one's image, but for most of the people with the power to send strike teams, it's about cash. Crazy violence will get gangers to fear and respect you. But the big players, they want to lose as little money as possible. As long as the total bill does not exceed a certain amount, they can't be bothered to care. The entire concept being that a few rounds of pure mayhem will cause way less overall damage than a minutes long shoot-out, followed by a car chase, with possibly a few accidents, and doctor/coroner bills. Ten security guards have some good odds of being entirely annihilated during a shoot-out, but if a grenade severely mangles one, maybe kills him, and whichever place they are fighting in starts looking like a warzone, then the odds of the guards going "Drek, I'm not paid enough for this!" and pulling back rise, leaving overall less destruction.

As long as you keep count of how much damage you dealt to a corporation and avoid doing to many consecutive runs against it, distributing your love and destruction to some of it's rivals, the odds of the corporation deciding you to be a useful tool/necessary evil (as far as account books are concerned) and not sending a strike team against you should be pretty decent.

Of course, the most important is, when you screw up and one DOES send a strike team, to cause as much mayhem and destruction on the corporation's territory as possible before losing them (that's when extraterritoriality and being the group's dedicated driver come in handy) as to make the cost of taking you out prohibitive.

I wanted to see how that concept would hold up to actual play, and because it seems paradoxal and fun as hell.

Tengu_temp
2014-02-04, 05:37 PM
Player vs NPC balance should never be a concern. A good DM should be able to adjust to the party's general power level. A DM who doesn't is a bad DM; at best inexperienced and new to the system, at worst stubborn and refusing to change or a "you need to be this optimized to play this campaign" elitist.

What should be the concern, however, is inter-party balance. Some people don't mind that your character is much more powerful than theirs, but others are seriously bothered by it. To make sure that's not the case, talk with them and ask for an honest opinion. And if they feel like you're stealing spotlight from them, tone it down. If they're okay with it, then tell the DM that the party is okay with your character.

Kalmageddon
2014-02-05, 06:55 AM
Player vs NPC balance should never be a concern. A good DM should be able to adjust to the party's general power level. A DM who doesn't is a bad DM; at best inexperienced and new to the system, at worst stubborn and refusing to change or a "you need to be this optimized to play this campaign" elitist.

Yes, because being a GM is a job and a GM has no right whatsoever to just play and have fun with a campaign that doesn't require being always worried about balancing things out for absurdly op characters. And he absolutely can't ask for his players to tone things down in order to make it easier on him, no sir.
This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes so many people shy away from being a GM in the first place.

Rosstin
2014-02-05, 01:03 PM
Once your existence is proven, however...

@Aster Azul : Rolled a Face with barely any weapon skill, I'll see how it turns out.

Good luck man :-)

Let us know how it goes

Tengu_temp
2014-02-05, 04:52 PM
Yes, because being a GM is a job and a GM has no right whatsoever to just play and have fun with a campaign that doesn't require being always worried about balancing things out for absurdly op characters. And he absolutely can't ask for his players to tone things down in order to make it easier on him, no sir.
This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes so many people shy away from being a GM in the first place.

Upping the danger level of the enemies is simple most of the time. It's not like we're talking about a DND wizard who pulls a spell for every situation out of his ass; just a guy who uses explosives a lot.

Mr Beer
2014-02-05, 04:58 PM
It's been said above but nerfing your character is the wrong way to do it. If it wasn't specified in advance, this should work by restricting when and where you can carry around freaking grenade launchers.

Unless you spend your entire game time in some kind of free-for-all unrestricted warzone, heavy weapons should be a constant problem. You shouldn't be casually walking in and out of mundane establishments looking like the action hero from a 90s movie.

Also, I don't know the Shadowun system but the traditional RPG response to having one character mow down every enemy with a particular signature move, is for "word to get around" and now you meet more people with grenade resistant armour but other attacks work just fine.

forsaken1111
2014-02-06, 11:05 AM
It's been said above but nerfing your character is the wrong way to do it. If it wasn't specified in advance, this should work by restricting when and where you can carry around freaking grenade launchers.

Unless you spend your entire game time in some kind of free-for-all unrestricted warzone, heavy weapons should be a constant problem. You shouldn't be casually walking in and out of mundane establishments looking like the action hero from a 90s movie.

Also, I don't know the Shadowun system but the traditional RPG response to having one character mow down every enemy with a particular signature move, is for "word to get around" and now you meet more people with grenade resistant armour but other attacks work just fine.They aren't heavy weapons. They're the size of a pistol.

But yes, if I were running this game I'd have it become harder and harder for your group to find work because you keep leaving flaming crater-filled battlefields behind you. It's called shadowrun because you run in the shadows. Descretion is the name of the game in most cases. Wholesale slaughter of security forces will get you on some serious ****lists.

This sillyness of "Well we don't have SINs so we can't be targeted by groups" is bull****. They deal with sinless people every day. These are criminal organizations, even the corporate ones. They'll find you.

Rhynn
2014-02-06, 11:11 AM
They aren't heavy weapons. They're the size of a pistol.

I think the general understanding is that "heavy weapons" covers e.g. grenade launchers (and, indeed, I think they fall under the skill Heavy Weapons in Shadowrun?) regardless of actual mass.

You are correct, though, in that any one-man grenade launcher (regardless of mass or dimensions) is in fact a light weapon, as are recoilless rifles, portable missile launchers, and RPGs. Heavy weapons are generally mounted.

As you say, the size and concealability is less relevant than the danger of being found in possession of explosives, or the difficulties of getting away with using them without bringing down a manhunt of impressive proportions. Actually, a pocket-sized grenade launcher would almost certainly be considered much worse by the authorities than one you can't hide...


This sillyness of "Well we don't have SINs so we can't be targeted by groups" is bull****. They deal with sinless people every day. These are criminal organizations, even the corporate ones. They'll find you.

Yeah. It may be slightly harder to track down someone with no SIN, but there are many, many people who do it for a job, and once they get you, you are going to be a lot worse off than someone with a SIN. They won't even have to bother with a cover story for your disappearance...

forsaken1111
2014-02-06, 12:11 PM
Relevant:

http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/2013/04/shadow-dolts.html?m=1

(Also hilarious)

Alberic Strein
2014-02-06, 03:32 PM
About the pistol-sized issue... Thing is, I haven't been using it's pistol size. At all. I didn't use it to sneak past guards and then lay mayhem upon them, I didn't take it with me when I went to see the Johnson, etc, etc... I only pulled it out of the big bag of equipment when everybody pulled out there non-discreet weapons. Like a claymore. So, I'm aware the size can be trouble, but really, I haven't been using it, and still got showered in nerfs.

Truthfully though, it was because of the lack of rules relating to it. I didn't feel kinky enough to use it with an hidden arm slide, and what concealability modifier would it have? A pistol's? Do you mean -2 (light pistol) +0 (heavy pistol) or +2 (machine pistol) ? +2 Is still a pretty damn fine chance to be found out, even with a lined coat (-2) and a concealed holster (-1)

So I went with "f*ck that, it stays in the big bag of equipment for when sh*t goes down hard enough."

About how you can be found...

Yes and no.

The thing must be apprehended in terms of cost. Being SINless means you are the needle in the haystack. And you have no rights. It won't protect you, but yes, you are harder to find. Impossible? Nope. As you clearly demonstrated, it is very possible for a corporation to find you. Or, if it wants, to kill you without having to find you.

Put the town they know you are in on lockdown > Air Strike.

And no one will bat an eyelash. If you put enough money on the table of course. Unfortunately, money is one of the many things corporations have in abundance. Fortunately, they are one of the things corporations hate losing.

Even the greatest bounty hunter will need a lead. Which is why genetic material is a terrible, terrible thing to leave on corporate territory. Bounty hunter has your blood > Docwagon (most likely) has your blood... And looooots of info about you > Bounty hunter gets looooots of info about you > You are in trouble.

And "trouble" is still manageable. Extraterritorialy, favors... The Vory has a tendency to value loyalty, if they owe you, it will be hard to buy you out of their protection, and odds are they will warn you and not merely sell you out.

And really, anything, ANYTHING can be an used to find you. The body of a dead teammate, the commlink of a teammate, the genetic material of a teammate... Any object that belongs to you can be traced with astral sight, any object that belongs to a teammate can be traced with astral sight and through him they can find you.

Short of that ? They can only put a very very dubious bounty on your head (it's hard to prove the guy you're turning in for ravaging a corp office is the guy who ravaged the corp office without making the corp want to shoot you in the head) and hope someone rats you out. Thing is, that bounty will need to be posted somewhere, for people to actually know of it. So you have some pretty damn decent odds to find it yourself. Then it's time to whip out your other fake SIN, and torch everything that has a connection to you, take your car and leave.

Long story short, most of the things which make the cost of finding you less prohibitive, i.e things that lead to you, have more and more odds of turning up the more fights drag out. Ending the fight in one turn leads to better odds of still being an identified shadow at the end of the day. The only thing that could help them trace you is your unusual weapon, which they could trace the history of. Long, costly, not even guaranteed to succeed.

Of course corpos can (and will, given enough incentive) find you. The trick is to make it cost prohibitive. Being a SINless helps that.

Ps: Very, very funny story! I'm not trigger happy though =P

Delta
2014-02-07, 05:32 AM
Short of that ? They can only put a very very dubious bounty on your head (it's hard to prove the guy you're turning in for ravaging a corp office is the guy who ravaged the corp office without making the corp want to shoot you in the head) and hope someone rats you out.

Two words: Mind probe. Sure, it's not admissible in a federal court or anything, but if you're a SINless criminal a corp couldn't care less about that, if they want to get something out of year head hard enough, they'll have a mage on payroll who will get it out of there. I'd expect a mage to determine whether someone is really the guy you're looking for to be standard MO in the "black" bounty hunter business.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-07, 06:19 AM
Oh yes, undoubtedly.

It IS, however, a very expensive skill to buy. Mages tend not to go well with corporations, mind probe is a forbidden spell, and it's still the same issue as before, they must find you before anything. If it's your former teammates that do it for them, mind probe has some decent odds of revealing that they were in the hit too, same for your fixer, etc, etc... Which will give corporations and bounty hunters incentive to give them the same treatment.

Delta
2014-02-07, 06:28 AM
Mages tend not to go well with corporations

Where do you get that from? It's not an accident that "wage mage" is one of the oldest NPC stereotypes that's been around pretty much since the SR1 core book.


mind probe is a forbidden spell

"Forbidden" becomes a very relative term once you deal with megacorps who can literally make their own laws.


and it's still the same issue as before, they must find you before anything. If it's your former teammates that do it for them, mind probe has some decent odds of revealing that they were in the hit too, same for your fixer, etc, etc... Which will give corporations and bounty hunters incentive to give them the same treatment.

I never argued against any of that, never said it's easy to get a hold of a runner. Only thing I'm saying is that if it's gone far enough that they put a bounty on your head, they will have ways to make sure the guy they get is really you.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-07, 03:00 PM
About mages not going well with corpos, I think it was somewhere in 5th edition or something... Maybe not. I remember seeing it in one of the books, but which...

Not saying there are no wage mages of course, or that it's even surprising to see one (after all, what runners meet is often the atypical members of corporations) however, they tend to be very, very valuable for corporations. Awakened are few and far between, proportionnaly to mundanes Among those, you have some wild cards with issues with authority, shamans come to mind. Why would you listen to your boss when a freaking spiritual dragon lends it's ear to your pleas? For most purposes, an augmented mundane brings about as much as an awakened. However, mundanes are not exactly rare, and when you manufacture some of these implants, you can cut the costs nicely.

AAA Corporations can have armies of awakened, of course (heck, they probably have several) but for a lesser corporation even a single magus is a boon.

Also, I never argued that when AAA corporations really, REALLY want you, they get you. However, most of the time, if their nice little spreadsheet shows that it would mean a substantial loss in money compared to the damage you caused them (and the damage you will continue to cause them if they don't stop you) they will sit back and hope the situation solves itself or someone else pays the bill.

And about the mind probe, it wasn't about proving it's really you, they can do that, and perhaps without even the need of such awakened ressources. Torture is terribly, terribly unreliable, but drugs could do the trick, as well as some good ol' spy work. If they think you did it, and want confirmation, why not plant a few agents to see if you they can make you give the information?

The thing I noted is that the people who could sell you out against reward, so the corporation can work it's magic on your mind, usually has a hand in the whole mess that put the corporate hounds after you. And finding you means finding them. So the bounty has some odds of not working at all with the people which have crucial information.

Edit: As long as they're paranoid enough. Fortunately, runners, fixers, and even normal citizen from the 6th world have no shortage of paranoia.

LibraryOgre
2014-02-07, 03:05 PM
Mages get along fine with corps... sort of.

IIRC, Awakenings (the 2e supplement) had a bit of the fluff on this and, briefly, mages are the favored sons of corporations. They're well paid and well pampered, because they're hard to replace.

Alberic Strein
2014-02-07, 03:26 PM
Yup. Corporations really, really like their mages and want to keep them.

It's even weird we don't have more runs about extracting awakened personel so another corporation can recruit them...

LibraryOgre
2014-02-07, 05:13 PM
Yup. Corporations really, really like their mages and want to keep them.

It's even weird we don't have more runs about extracting awakened personel so another corporation can recruit them...

My bet is there's a few reasons for it.

1) Most awakened personnel are difficult to extract (since even a science mage might have learned Turn to Goo).
2) They tend to like it where they are (they're well paid and well pampered)
3) For the most part, they're replaceable. If they're not replaceable, then point 1.

The third part may seem weird, but by "replaceable" I mean... if you've got Mages A B and C, and your enemy has mages D, E, and F, you're probably not going to get a whole lot more from acquiring D... to whom they likely have a material link, and who might belong to their local magical group. Stealing D is going to be a big headache. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have a gentleman's agreement regarding the poaching of mages... don't do it. Geek the guard mages if you must, but mostly keep your hands off the talent.

Easier to just kill the mage and steal the lab book, anyway.

GungHo
2014-02-10, 02:53 PM
That said, you could suggest some countermeasures to your GM... like "Once people start using grenades, the guards call in SWAT"... which in Shadowrun means hard armor, heavy weapons, and spellcasters. Heck, even blast barriers (like a table with a good barrier rating) can really cut the damage of grenades.
This is like star-level in Grand Theft Auto. Certain activities arouse certain levels of response. Steal a car or commit a hit and run, and a couple of police will pursue you. Start shooting at that car, and even more police will pursue you, with more vigor. Blow up that car, and you've got SWAT vans, choppers, and the like.

Additionally, just think about it practically. How do you think real-world police would react to grenades? Why would Shadowrun work differently in that regard? "I'm sorry, Ares Corp, but the second people graduated from small arms to destructive devices, this became the jurisdiction of the <insert federal agency here>."

In short, if I were the GM, I'd let you have the grenade launchers. I have plenty of other tools to make your character's short life a miserable hell beyond saying "no", and I have no compunction against hijacking the game for awhile to roleplay Dwarf Jack Bauer. I probably played way too many Sierra adventure games growing up, so Have a Nice Death scenes are second nature to me.


Mages tend not to go well with corporations
What? Why would they not hire mages? Hell, I'd have a whole department of people running divinations on my competitors if I could. And a whole other department of people running counter-divinations to keep my competitors from knowing what I found out.

Delta
2014-02-10, 03:24 PM
Additionally, just think about it practically. How do you think real-world police would react to grenades? Why would Shadowrun work differently in that regard? "I'm sorry, Ares Corp, but the second people graduated from small arms to destructive devices, this became the jurisdiction of the <insert federal agency here>."

Just to point this out, the setting foundation of Shadowrun is exactly the opposite. The territory of Ares (or any other megacorp) is the territory of Ares and no one else. No <insert federal agency> has any jurisdiction whatsoever on megacorporate territory. That's why Ares has its own security forces and army to take care of people blowing up their stuff.

Rhynn
2014-02-10, 04:01 PM
Just to point this out, the setting foundation of Shadowrun is exactly the opposite. The territory of Ares (or any other megacorp) is the territory of Ares and no one else. No <insert federal agency> has any jurisdiction whatsoever on megacorporate territory. That's why Ares has its own security forces and army to take care of people blowing up their stuff.

Indeed, there's much less of a US government in general. Seattle, for instance, is an independent city (with big corporate holdings) surrounded by the even more independent Salish-Sidhe Council nation. UCAS and CAS are further east, and I guess both probably qualify as federal governments and still acknowledge separate states... but corporate enclaves are, indeed, something like embassies legally.

Of course, that doesn't mean the local cops ignore what goes on in the enclaves. If someone is blowing things up in a corporate enclave, they're going to be blowing things up in the city soon, too - and it's not like the corps aren't going to appreciate a clean, careful assist: a sniper putting a bullet in a 'runner's head from across the street, or a helicopter relaying information down to corporate security.

Mind you, if law enforcement is by the Lone Star Corp, it's likely that they're providing a lot of the security to local corporate enclaves as well, with the exception of the secret and super-sensitive facilities.

forsaken1111
2014-02-10, 04:06 PM
Just to point this out, the setting foundation of Shadowrun is exactly the opposite. The territory of Ares (or any other megacorp) is the territory of Ares and no one else. No <insert federal agency> has any jurisdiction whatsoever on megacorporate territory. That's why Ares has its own security forces and army to take care of people blowing up their stuff.

Indeed. In this case, it would be more like "Stand down local ares security, the corporate office is taking over as these incidents have garnered executive level attention and this situation will now be resolved expediently, whatever the cost."

And that is when the might of Ares, a manufacturer of some of the most advanced arms and armor and the seventh largest corporation in the world, comes down on your pathetic shadowrunner group.

This is a corporation which could realistically field more automated search drones than there are people in a city. They would find you.

huttj509
2014-02-10, 04:33 PM
Short of that ? They can only put a very very dubious bounty on your head (it's hard to prove the guy you're turning in for ravaging a corp office is the guy who ravaged the corp office without making the corp want to shoot you in the head) and hope someone rats you out. Thing is, that bounty will need to be posted somewhere, for people to actually know of it. So you have some pretty damn decent odds to find it yourself. Then it's time to whip out your other fake SIN, and torch everything that has a connection to you, take your car and leave.

I'll point out that "Sorry Bob, we've been friends a long time, but the bounty on you and your buddies is just too good. Me and the boys got bills to pay, you know? You'd do the same if our positions were reversed" can be an excellent setup to a Shadowrun session/scenario/storyline.

And a legitimate way for you to "find out about it."

GungHo
2014-02-10, 04:42 PM
Just to point this out, the setting foundation of Shadowrun is exactly the opposite. The territory of Ares (or any other megacorp) is the territory of Ares and no one else. No <insert federal agency> has any jurisdiction whatsoever on megacorporate territory. That's why Ares has its own security forces and army to take care of people blowing up their stuff.

You're right. I had a halfsheimer moment and explained this very poorly. I was more trying point out there is a line at which things get escalated to a higher power (as Forsaken went into) than anything.

Raimun
2014-02-18, 12:40 PM
I don't see the issue. In general, grenade launchers and other heavy weapons aren't that good in Shadowrun because they're big, unsubtle and most importantly, too damn loud.

The way I see it, Shadowrun is a stealth game. The manner of stealth (sneaking, infiltration, shadowing, disguise, plain sight, etc.) isn't important, all that matters is that you don't get caught. Of course, if the game is run like a dungeon brawl, all that goes out of the window... and how can it be bad to properly equip yourself for that?

If the weapon itself is the problem (too "OP", "unbalanced", yadda, yadda), there's still no problem. All of the really good military grade stuff aren't, by the rules, readily available, without really good connections and social skills. If someone can fix that kind of deal, that must mean he's invested to face-skills and should reap the rewards. Even then, GM is still free to flat-out refuse some stuff: "I don't care how smooth talker your character is, no one in the streets simply has access to the latest military prototypes. Try asking the megacorps if you feel suicidal."

Either way, heavy weapons should be that good. If you can produce and transport a heavy weapon to battle, you should have some serious edge. Especially if you must compromise stealth.

However, most of the heavy weapons I've seen in the hands of PCs in SR have been a waste of perfectly good metal that could have been used to build numerous silenced handguns that fire non-lethal rounds.

Edit: Sometimes, I think people who automatically think: "bigger numbers in one skill=ultimate power=invincible=OP=ban!" are the bane of sensible rules discussion. I wonder if they feel scissors are OP because they lost with their paper.

Deadline
2014-02-18, 05:17 PM
On the topic of your enemies finding you. Yes, they can. Full stop. While you are right that it can be made difficult and costly, that doesn't necessarily mean you can prance around firing grenades wildly into corp holdings and get away without incident. And you'd best pray that the corporate ritual team has better things to do than send a lethal spell your way through the link they formed from the genetic material you left behind (all from the safety and comfort of their high-powered hermetic library). Odds are that they'll only have their precious time dedicated to finding you (assuming you've become a big enough headache), and then the corporate strike teams are sent in. Corporate espionage is par for the course, and generally won't demand that sort of response. Corporate Warfare, however, will see a much worse response.

Your bigger issue would be the damage to your rep that grenades will cause. Use them too frequently, and you get a stigma attached to you. Nobody will ask you to do jobs that require subtlety, because you have proven to the street that you are incapable of it. You might, however, pick up jobs where subtlety is not desired.

And finding the guy who likes to use lots of grenades on the street isn't going to be terribly hard from a PI standpoint either. If you use grenades as your go-to tactic, you will not be invisible, or hard to find. :smallwink:

forsaken1111
2014-02-18, 06:14 PM
A favorite tactic of my old GM was for the victim corporation to put out fake 'jobs' through known associate johnsons (using a suitable number of intermediaries) promising a very lucrative sum for the team to break into a target location.

Said location was, of course, a trap filled with heavily armed drones and security personnel.

Obviously this was only done if the level of damage had risen to a point where the corp felt that the problem needed to be dealt with in a very permanent manner.

CombatOwl
2014-02-18, 06:44 PM
I don't know Shadowrun that well, but why don't you suggest a way to counter your character to your DM instead of complaining about the nerfs?

He's not describing anything particularly crazy. That's a pretty typical sort of street samurai build.

If the GM can't handle a street samurai with high initiative and a smart-linked grenade launcher, he probably ought not be running Shadowrun.


@Kalmageddon : Thing is, I'm not that good at Shadowrun, which is why I had no idea grenade launchers were broken in any fashion as I started, and now that it's started, I have no idea how to counter it.

Magic, drones, snipers, an armored troll with a panther assault cannon. Alternately, force the team to have their wireless turned on occasionally. Seriously, just use AROs for essential information and access panels. It forces the team to do more than wander around with their wireless off--and thereby letting a decker can take care of that grenade launcher issue very quickly.


Or, to be more precise, how to specifically counter it. Two enemies approching from different directions and opening fire could be more than enough to take me down. But besides not packing enemies tightly together, and not putting a lot of close combatants, I don't really see anything specific.

Kill you from outside the pistol's range. Snipers, vehicular weapons, assault cannons, etc. Mages. A fire elemental could seriously ruin your day by cooking off your ammunition. Put you in a situation where it's not an enclosed space--grenades only get stupid in packed hallways that are strong enough not to give way to the explosions.

Alternately, someone wired up for high initiative with a good assault rifle. Forcing you into melee combat might work too. Get hit, get knocked down. The grenades have a minimum arming distance and won't work point blank, even if you were crazy enough to fire them.

Also, ambushes--because dodging is for *******.


I don't even see the need for nerfs if he uses this strategy. He didn't up till now, so there must be some kind of issue of which I am not aware. And I don't mind being nerfed if the nerf is smart and logical, or even merely pointing out a rule I'm not aware of. I feel that what is happening is not nerfing my campaign endangering damage output. It's letting me have that output, then nitpicking about every little thing and pulling out the most obscure and bent out of shape interpretation of the rules possible.

He needs to learn how to run the game apparently, if a street sammy with a grenade launcher is that much of a problem.

LibraryOgre
2014-02-19, 01:00 PM
Your bigger issue would be the damage to your rep that grenades will cause. Use them too frequently, and you get a stigma attached to you. Nobody will ask you to do jobs that require subtlety, because you have proven to the street that you are incapable of it. You might, however, pick up jobs where subtlety is not desired.

"Don't call him unless you just want everything there fragged out the hoop."

Deadline
2014-02-19, 04:20 PM
"Don't call him unless you just want everything there fragged out the hoop."

Exactly.

It kind of reminds of the movie Smokin' Aces. There are several different teams after one particular individual, and most of them at least have the semblance of professionalism. Except for one team. The trio of psycopaths who go in wielding chainsaws as melee weapons and all the subtlety of a brick.

The movie does have one of Ben Affleck's finest acting moments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1fnkYbVijE), though.