Dragon Hoard Question

[zephyrkinetic]

Hey guys, moral quandary. I've got my players chasing after a long-dead red wyrm's skeleton to retrieve part of a blade which was embedded in his bone. Problem is, Grandaddy Swordbone would have had a red wyrm-sized hoard, and these are a party of four level 5 players. Now, I'm not just handing this to them; the lair (and hoard) was taken over by a young adult red dragon (which at a CR 13 should be a very hard battle), but I'm concerned that I'm still giving them too much. What should I do, here? Say the hoard was cleared by rivals before the Young Adult took up residence? Seems kind of cheap, and why would they have left the skeleton? I thought about having the Young Adult paying off other (larger) dragons in the area to avoid being killed, but that seems a little too easy, too.

Help me out here. Any suggestions?

EDIT: I should add that none of the party has a Bag of Holding, Haversack, Portable Hole, or anything else. They can probably do a mage hand or Tenser's Disk, if they think of it, but that should limit the amount they could truck off with. However, they might make multiple trips.

[Drakeon Saerin]

I would imagine whoever killed the Wyrm took its hoard afterwards.

If another dragon moved in after the fact whatever treasure is there just belongs to the new resident.

I've been in more then one group that just killed a dragon, skinned it, and left the rest to rot. Not much to do with the rest of a big dragon corpse really.

[Diarmuid]

I dont see any problem with saying the horde was picked over fairly well. The fact that whoever took the best stuff didnt have time to take everything might speak to how that fight went. And the sword in the bone, while obvious after the body has decayed away, might not have been obvious immediately after the fight when the group was looking to get out as fast as they could and go lick their wounds.

[zephyrkinetic]

I would imagine whoever killed the Wyrm took its hoard afterwards.

Ah. Yeah, I didn't address that. They found a broken sword hilt, and a journal. Guy stabbed a dragon, but then died from his own wounds after travelling a ways. Sword blade stayed where it was, dragon died a few days later.

[Morcleon]

Ah. Yeah, I didn't address that. They found a broken sword hilt, and a journal. Guy stabbed a dragon, but then died from his own wounds after travelling a ways. Sword blade stayed where it was, dragon died a few days later.

Then maybe whoever next came to the dragon's lair took the hoard, but just didn't see the sword blade, as it was buried into the dragon?

[Dr. Azkur]

I would love to point you out to the very frustrating scene on Disney's Treasure Planet where they activate a booby trap and the entire planet crumbles making them lose the entire treasure because Ol' Nath Flint was just that much of a cheap scrooge and nobody would take his gold. But I can't find it.

[zephyrkinetic]

I guess when it comes right down to it, I don't have to explain what happened to it. "You see a big cave, surprisingly devoid of treasure. There's a pretty sweet-looking dragon skeleton, though." This suffices for the table.

The question I was more asking was "does it seem reasonable to give a stupid amount of gold to these low-level characters based on the story?" The implicit response seems to be "nope."

[zephyrkinetic]

I would love to point you out to the very frustrating scene on Disney's Treasure Planet where they activate a booby trap and the entire planet crumbles making them lose the entire treasure because Ol' Nath Flint was just that much of a cheap scrooge and nobody would take his gold. But I can't find it.


No need. I love that movie. I'd go for something like that, except that junior's been living there and hasn't crumbled anything yet.

[Dr. Azkur]

No need. I love that movie. I'd go for something like that, except that junior's been living there and hasn't crumbled anything yet.

I know, right? It's so good.

Anyhow you can make up any reason why it hasn't triggered yet but here are a few options:


He wasn't a cheap scrooge when it came to his progeny so it sets off only when his bloodline can't take care of his riches anymore.
Jr. was the devious cheap scrooge that set the whole thing to crumble.
Jr. found a way to delay it but when the PC's kill him it triggers again.
Jr. actually missed the trap (it was set by his father, no less), but for some other reason it hasn't been triggered (Jr. hasn't found it but he knows it might be there so he's careful/The trap confounds Junior for Senior since they're same blood/whatever


Seriously, you can't miss out on having the players' amazing newfound glory and prize slip through their fingers like sand. It makes for such a good scene, specially if they find it hard to decide between their lives or the hoard.

[Yawgmoth]

If they can handle a YA red dragon at level bloody five then I'd say that they have either already received a huge pile of gold, are the luckiest MFs on the planet w/r/t dice rolls, or you are planning on playing Derptaculon, the brain-damaged red dragon who forgot how to be a dragon. His breath is going to be enough to kill the PCs and will be big enough to hit everyone, his SR will be roughly a 65% miss on spells, his caster level is going to be equal to the party's casters, and his full attack is bite/2 claws/2 wings/tail with an attack bonus bigger than anyone's AC by a longshot. That's not even figuring in the seven feats it gets, the 218hp they'll have to cut through, or the saves that are likely to be maybe a 25% success rate (ignoring the previously mention SR).

So yeah, if they manage to succeed against Jr. there, they deserve an epic reward.

[magwaaf]

Hey guys, moral quandary. I've got my players chasing after a long-dead red wyrm's skeleton to retrieve part of a blade which was embedded in his bone. Problem is, Grandaddy Swordbone would have had a red wyrm-sized hoard, and these are a party of four level 5 players. Now, I'm not just handing this to them; the lair (and hoard) was taken over by a young adult red dragon (which at a CR 13 should be a very hard battle), but I'm concerned that I'm still giving them too much. What should I do, here? Say the hoard was cleared by rivals before the Young Adult took up residence? Seems kind of cheap, and why would they have left the skeleton? I thought about having the Young Adult paying off other (larger) dragons in the area to avoid being killed, but that seems a little too easy, too.

Help me out here. Any suggestions?

EDIT: I should add that none of the party has a Bag of Holding, Haversack, Portable Hole, or anything else. They can probably do a mage hand or Tenser's Disk, if they think of it, but that should limit the amount they could truck off with. However, they might make multiple trips.


ba happy you don't have hardcore crafters in your party. we have 2 and they make hundreds of thousands of gold everytime we give them time to craft. it was worse when we had a wizard/merchant prince prc in the group.... he died at level 6. its more disgusting than ancient wyrm red dragon hoards lol

[zephyrkinetic]

I know, right? It's so good.

Anyhow you can make up any reason why it hasn't triggered yet but here are a few options:


He wasn't a cheap scrooge when it came to his progeny so it sets off only when his bloodline can't take care of his riches anymore.
Jr. was the devious cheap scrooge that set the whole thing to crumble.
Jr. found a way to delay it but when the PC's kill him it triggers again.
Jr. actually missed the trap (it was set by his father, no less), but for some other reason it hasn't been triggered (Jr. hasn't found it but he knows it might be there so he's careful/The trap confounds Junior for Senior since they're same blood/whatever


Seriously, you can't miss out on having the players' amazing newfound glory and prize slip through their fingers like sand. It makes for such a good scene, specially if they find it hard to decide between their lives or the hoard.

It is quite good. Plus, I have a four-year-old girl, so I get to relive all of my favorite Disney movies without any associated shame. :smallcool:

Great ideas, all. I'm going to probably combine a couple of the things from your list. Thanks a ton.


If they can handle a YA red dragon at level bloody five then I'd say that they have either already received a huge pile of gold, are the luckiest MFs on the planet w/r/t dice rolls, or you are planning on playing Derptaculon, the brain-damaged red dragon who forgot how to be a dragon. His breath is going to be enough to kill the PCs and will be big enough to hit everyone, his SR will be roughly a 65% miss on spells, his caster level is going to be equal to the party's casters, and his full attack is bite/2 claws/2 wings/tail with an attack bonus bigger than anyone's AC by a longshot. That's not even figuring in the seven feats it gets, the 218hp they'll have to cut through, or the saves that are likely to be maybe a 25% success rate (ignoring the previously mention SR).

So yeah, if they manage to succeed against Jr. there, they deserve an epic reward.

I'm expecting a couple of player deaths, which the large pile of gold will have to help pay for. They're retrieving a piece to an ancient, intelligent weapon, here; I can't have it guarded by a band of kobolds.

With that said, I was planning on playing a fairly dumb dragon. Arrogance (to the point of underestimating foes) is a known red dragon trait, and I don't mind giving my players the upper hand if it makes for a good game and fun times. I'll cut the XP accordingly if need be.

With that said, I rolled the dragon, and only got 198 HP. Not much difference, but it's still under 218. His Attack Bonus could miss the tanks if he rolls poorly (that is, on Claws, Wings, and Tail), and they'll be luring him to a wooded area, which will provide them with cover, and him with limited mobility.

Most importantly, they just got off a largely luck-fueled heist, in which they picked up a Daern's Instant Fortress, and enough gold to pay for some fire resistance. They can either hide in the Fortress, or (as I'm expecting), use it as a thrown weapon. They've also got a Decanter of Endless Water, which ought to serve as a decent offensive tool if they put their minds to it.

I always thought the CRs for dragons were a little off; this is a hard battle, but not impossible if they keep their wits about them. Bottom line, that's a vote in favor of a BSH (Big Stupid Hoard)?

[zephyrkinetic]

ba happy you don't have hardcore crafters in your party. we have 2 and they make hundreds of thousands of gold everytime we give them time to craft. it was worse when we had a wizard/merchant prince prc in the group.... he died at level 6. its more disgusting than ancient wyrm red dragon hoards lol

What are they making gold with? Unless they're alchemists, I don't know how you can make gold coins without having some gold already. Maybe the RAW allows for it, but I'd houserule against it.

[graeylin]

Senior dragon hid his hoard in multiple places, so that no one person could steal all his treasure. So, there's a little left here, perhaps, but the rest is hidden across the cave system/world. In fact, if you want, you can leave clues to it for the guys further adventures.

Senior dragon used magic to hide it. Maybe in dimensional spaces around, that only he could see/access. Or my favorite, put a BUNCH of handy haversacks in the cave. Each one is FILLED with his treasure, but what was in each sack only he knew.

Thus, new wearers can't reach in and be thinking of a specific item, and have it retrieved. And likely, all the ones with just coins were found decades ago, and taken.

[Bigbeefie]

You say the group doesn't have a bag of holding....Why not just adjust the Items in the "hoard" Let it match the Young dragon's horde and say the Wyrms loot was taken long ago and this is all that is left (your original plot items and Bones) and the Young Red Dragon's Hoard. Just throw a few good useful items their way (like bag of Holding type 1) and some gold I'm sure they will be happy regardless and not demand a bigger loot drop for their Levels.

[zephyrkinetic]

Senior dragon hid his hoard in multiple places, so that no one person could steal all his treasure. So, there's a little left here, perhaps, but the rest is hidden across the cave system/world. In fact, if you want, you can leave clues to it for the guys further adventures.

Senior dragon used magic to hide it. Maybe in dimensional spaces around, that only he could see/access. Or my favorite, put a BUNCH of handy haversacks in the cave. Each one is FILLED with his treasure, but what was in each sack only he knew.

Thus, new wearers can't reach in and be thinking of a specific item, and have it retrieved. And likely, all the ones with just coins were found decades ago, and taken.

Wow. YES. All of these are great, though the last one is too mean for my style. :smallcool:
That first one, though. That's so obvious and simple. I love it. Done deal.


You say the group doesn't have a bag of holding....Why not just adjust the Items in the "hoard" Let it match the Young dragon's horde and say the Wyrms loot was taken long ago and this is all that is left (your original plot items and Bones) and the Young Red Dragon's Hoard. Just throw a few good useful items their way (like bag of Holding type 1) and some gold I'm sure they will be happy regardless and not demand a bigger loot drop for their Levels.

I'll be putting this concept to use with the "multiple locations" idea from above. What was left is roughly the right size. Thanks.:smallbiggrin:

[Yawgmoth]

I'm expecting a couple of player deaths, which the large pile of gold will have to help pay for. They're retrieving a piece to an ancient, intelligent weapon, here; I can't have it guarded by a band of kobolds.

With that said, I was planning on playing a fairly dumb dragon. Arrogance (to the point of underestimating foes) is a known red dragon trait, and I don't mind giving my players the upper hand if it makes for a good game and fun times. I'll cut the XP accordingly if need be.

With that said, I rolled the dragon, and only got 198 HP. Not much difference, but it's still under 218. His Attack Bonus could miss the tanks if he rolls poorly (that is, on Claws, Wings, and Tail), and they'll be luring him to a wooded area, which will provide them with cover, and him with limited mobility.

Most importantly, they just got off a largely luck-fueled heist, in which they picked up a Daern's Instant Fortress, and enough gold to pay for some fire resistance. They can either hide in the Fortress, or (as I'm expecting), use it as a thrown weapon. They've also got a Decanter of Endless Water, which ought to serve as a decent offensive tool if they put their minds to it.

I always thought the CRs for dragons were a little off; this is a hard battle, but not impossible if they keep their wits about them. Bottom line, that's a vote in favor of a BSH (Big Stupid Hoard)? I don't think you quite understand how deadly this thing is going to be. Even if you give it the worst spell list imaginable and pick Skill Focus seven times for feats, it's still going to have the ability to eat 1d4 adventurers per round. Even if you play him at int 3 levels, his breath weapon is a 50ft cone that does an average of 55 fire damage. That's enough to flat-out kill any member of the party even with fire resist 10, and red dragons are also known for estimating their foes by how well they handle an impromptu BBQ.

In addition, it's going to be in a "wooded area"? You know what happens when trees get too hot, right? Forest fires start from regular old mundane 1d6 fire damage fires; 10d10 is almost "immersion in lava" hot. If it doesn't burn down the forest with them in it, it is literally The Worst Dragon.

The decanter is not going to do anything of note to the dragon. It's 1d4 damage/round; they'd be better off throwing rocks at it (or maybe using it to put out the aforementioned blazing trees). The instant fortress will do a decent chunk if they can trick it into walking into that trap, but it's a one-time deal. They're still going to have to peel through ~150hp while dealing with an AC they are not likely to have even a 50/50 chance of hitting (especially while Shaken from frightful presence), SR they definitely don't have an even shot at, and saves that are going to out-roll all but the most focused of casters.

It might underestimate them, but it very well deserves to because even if it overestimates them by a couple levels, it still sees them as ants among magnifying glasses on a sunny day. And even if it does assume that they're weak and ignorable, as soon as they start actually hurting it, it's going to decide to show them why it's a bad idea to fight something several tiers above their pay grade. They will never have the "upper hand" in this fight unless you fiat it to them. This is a TPK just waiting to happen, even if it does nothing but "use breath weapon on cooldown, try to full attack whatever is closest, hurt thing what is hurting me most".

So, to reiterate: Unless you play this dragon as multiple types of incompetent (such that one would question how it lived >50 years), your players are boned. If they survive it, which would be a bloody miracle, they deserve a full level of XP and at least the 39,000gp befitting a YA red dragon.

[Coidzor]

I would love to point you out to the very frustrating scene on Disney's Treasure Planet where they activate a booby trap and the entire planet crumbles making them lose the entire treasure because Ol' Nath Flint was just that much of a cheap scrooge and nobody would take his gold. But I can't find it.

That's even worse than having had the hoard picked over already. Partially because the lair is apparently still there.

[zephyrkinetic]

I don't think you quite understand how deadly this thing is going to be. Even if you give it the worst spell list imaginable and pick Skill Focus seven times for feats, it's still going to have the ability to eat 1d4 adventurers per round. Even if you play him at int 3 levels, his breath weapon is a 50ft cone that does an average of 55 fire damage. That's enough to flat-out kill any member of the party even with fire resist 10, and red dragons are also known for estimating their foes by how well they handle an impromptu BBQ.

In addition, it's going to be in a "wooded area"? You know what happens when trees get too hot, right? Forest fires start from regular old mundane 1d6 fire damage fires; 10d10 is almost "immersion in lava" hot. If it doesn't burn down the forest with them in it, it is literally The Worst Dragon.

The decanter is not going to do anything of note to the dragon. It's 1d4 damage/round; they'd be better off throwing rocks at it (or maybe using it to put out the aforementioned blazing trees). The instant fortress will do a decent chunk if they can trick it into walking into that trap, but it's a one-time deal. They're still going to have to peel through ~150hp while dealing with an AC they are not likely to have even a 50/50 chance of hitting (especially while Shaken from frightful presence), SR they definitely don't have an even shot at, and saves that are going to out-roll all but the most focused of casters.

It might underestimate them, but it very well deserves to because even if it overestimates them by a couple levels, it still sees them as ants among magnifying glasses on a sunny day. And even if it does assume that they're weak and ignorable, as soon as they start actually hurting it, it's going to decide to show them why it's a bad idea to fight something several tiers above their pay grade. They will never have the "upper hand" in this fight unless you fiat it to them. This is a TPK just waiting to happen, even if it does nothing but "use breath weapon on cooldown, try to full attack whatever is closest, hurt thing what is hurting me most".

So, to reiterate: Unless you play this dragon as multiple types of incompetent (such that one would question how it lived >50 years), your players are boned. If they survive it, which would be a bloody miracle, they deserve a full level of XP and at least the 39,000gp befitting a YA red dragon.

Sunuva.

Yeah. This is a Juvenile. Rolled him as a Juvenile. Was a Juvenile the whole time. I just kept saying Young Adult, because I am Derpmaster, Derpiest of DMs. That explains why the HP was off, anyway. So the cone is a little smaller, does less damage, there's no Frightful Presence, and the attacks don't hit quite as hard or often as your previous calculations. Which were spot on, not saying you were wrong or anything.

Near as I can make out, the spell list isn't all that dangerous. 6 ea. 0- and 1-level Sorc spells per day.

And in defense of the wooded area thing: the tops of trees are what he'll be setting on fire, not the floor. Which puts smoke in his eyes. I'm not saying there's not some fire on the floor, but if he fires on them from above, he's mostly doing himself a disservice. I mean, even lava takes a little bit to catch things on fire, and a round is only 6 seconds. Even if it's a several-round battle, there's time to get in some damage.

I dunno. Maybe I do just play dragons very inefficiently. Tell you what, what's a good replacement BBE Beasty, then? What would you recommend?

[rollforeigninit]

Alternately, the hoard can be at least somewhat intact. However, the Wyrm's spirit can be found inhabiting at least some of the items in said hoard. Make it at least moderately dangerous to take the really really good stuff. Attach strings. Enforce the encumbrance rules and have the remainder be fought over like in the Hobbit. Whole armies can be mobilized. Go nuts. That's assuming they live.

[Trasilor]

Wow. YES. All of these are great, though the last one is too mean for my style. :smallcool:
That first one, though. That's so obvious and simple. I love it. Done deal.



I'll be putting this concept to use with the "multiple locations" idea from above. What was left is roughly the right size. Thanks.:smallbiggrin:

Actually, part of the problem is said dragon horde is not very big - volume wise.

Gold is incredibly dense (platinum even more so). And because the php tied volume to weight (i.e. 50 coins = 1 lb), treasure hordes became very small.

For instance, your Wyrm Red Dragon would have on average 60,600 coins (4d8*1000*3 gp + 4d10*100*3 pp).

After a bit of math and conversions, 60,600 coins would take up a space of approximately 1740 cubic inches. How big is 1740 cubic inches? The size of your standard office letter box (10*12*15). Yup, gold is very dense stuff...

Granted the stuff weighs 1200 lbs.

Now I am imagining a magical safe, on the floor. One with an incredibly high open lock DC and voids any magical attempts at opening. Sure you know where the gold is...but how are you going to move it? :smallbiggrin:

[zephyrkinetic]

Actually, part of the problem is said dragon horde is not very big - volume wise.

Gold is incredibly dense (platinum even more so). And because the php tied volume to weight (i.e. 50 coins = 1 lb), treasure hordes became very small.

For instance, your Wyrm Red Dragon would have on average 60,600 coins (4d8*1000*3 gp + 4d10*100*3 pp).

After a bit of math and conversions, 60,600 coins would take up a space of approximately 1740 cubic inches. How big is 1740 cubic inches? The size of your standard office letter box (10*12*15). Yup, gold is very dense stuff...

Granted the stuff weighs 1200 lbs.

Now I am imagining a magical safe, on the floor. One with an incredibly high open lock DC and voids any magical attempts at opening. Sure you know where the gold is...but how are you going to move it? :smallbiggrin:

That's crazy. o_O I never did the conversions, but that's absurdly small.

As for moving it, there is a centaur in the party... his strength is only 17, but he would be able to drag it out of there, I think.

[Fouredged Sword]

See, this is why my younger dragons keep their hordes in copper pieces. They just have to rob several bank wagons (copper piece deliveries don't have too many guards) and they can create a rather large stack of shinny things without overloading the value meter.

Not the funny part is when the players have to haul back several tons of copper.

My paper napkin math says that you would get 215 times the volume of copper coins, and 100 times the weight.

It still isn't a huge horde, but it's enough to pad a bed with.

[Sheogoroth]

You could pull an "Aladdin in the Cave of Wonders."
Line the freaking walls of the cave with treasure, but it starts sinking into the earth when they kill the dragon. They get just enough time to grab some epic goodies that were pre-made just for them, then have them roll for as long as they want to sit gathering, but every turn raises the chances of a piece of the ceiling falling on them or sealing them in forever.

A sort of Cortez's troops escaping from Tenochitlan, drowning because their pockets are loaded with gold- pit their drive for survival against their greed.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You could pull an "Aladdin in the Cave of Wonders."
Line the freaking walls of the cave with treasure, but it starts sinking into the earth when they kill the dragon. They get just enough time to grab some epic goodies that were pre-made just for them, then have them roll for as long as they want to sit gathering, but every turn raises the chances of a piece of the ceiling falling on them or sealing them in forever.

A sort of Cortez's troops escaping from Tenochitlan, drowning because their pockets are loaded with gold- pit their drive for survival against their greed.

That's a really good one, but I've got four words for you: Bag of Holding Dragnet.

[Deadline]

And in defense of the wooded area thing: the tops of trees are what he'll be setting on fire, not the floor. Which puts smoke in his eyes. I'm not saying there's not some fire on the floor, but if he fires on them from above, he's mostly doing himself a disservice. I mean, even lava takes a little bit to catch things on fire, and a round is only 6 seconds. Even if it's a several-round battle, there's time to get in some damage.

It's a creature of elemental fire. It can literally take a bath in lava without discomfort, and it can see through the smoke with Blindsense. The smoke will not bother the dragon at all. Also, the forest will burn down eventually, and the dragon doesn't need to rush in, it can just lazily fly around high in the sky, occasionally strafing the party with fire-breath. That is literally the least amount of effort it can expend on a fight. Dragons never land and duke it out in close combat unless absolutely necessary.

How much ranged firepower does the party have that is capable of hitting a mid-20's AC at a couple hundred feet?

If the party prepares, is capable of flight, and has good offensive options, they might eek out a victory.

Honestly, an even CR dragon played reasonably well (and out in the open like that) should be potentially lethal against an unprepared party, and dangerous to a prepared party.

If you use the dragon you are thinking of, the party had better kill it, because it can use Locate Object 1/day, and zero in on something shiny from its hoard.

I'd suggest using a lower CR dragon, and play it with brutal efficiency. Hit and run tactics, strafing, picking off stragglers, stalking the party until they try to rest and then ambushing them, etc.

[Dr. Azkur]

That's even worse than having had the hoard picked over already. Partially because the lair is apparently still there.

Well yes... was I supposed to suggest something that would not have them shed every tear and bodily fluid?

[Yawgmoth]

Sunuva.

Yeah. This is a Juvenile. Rolled him as a Juvenile. Was a Juvenile the whole time. I just kept saying Young Adult, because I am Derpmaster, Derpiest of DMs. That explains why the HP was off, anyway. So the cone is a little smaller, does less damage, there's no Frightful Presence, and the attacks don't hit quite as hard or often as your previous calculations. Which were spot on, not saying you were wrong or anything.

Near as I can make out, the spell list isn't all that dangerous. 6 ea. 0- and 1-level Sorc spells per day.

And in defense of the wooded area thing: the tops of trees are what he'll be setting on fire, not the floor. Which puts smoke in his eyes. I'm not saying there's not some fire on the floor, but if he fires on them from above, he's mostly doing himself a disservice. I mean, even lava takes a little bit to catch things on fire, and a round is only 6 seconds. Even if it's a several-round battle, there's time to get in some damage.

I dunno. Maybe I do just play dragons very inefficiently. Tell you what, what's a good replacement BBE Beasty, then? What would you recommend? Ah yes, being younger does significantly change things, most notably a lack of SR, FP, and lack of tail attack. As stated by Deadline, red dragons are bothered by smoke roughly as much as your average person is bothered by overcast weather. It's going to set fire to the forest as a matter of course, and in fact the fire will take off in no more than a round. Hell, I can get a fire going in under 12 seconds using regular old kindling and a match; this is a sapient flamethrower spitting out 16,755 cubic feet of pure hotness.

My suggestion would be to just use a very young or young red dragon and play to its strengths. It's not going to fight on land unless it has to, and it won't leave its lair unless it has good reason; but being only ~10 years old, it likely has a decent reason for leaving (wants to expand/explore its territory, hears about a cache of shiny things, learns which castle his princess is hidden in, etc.) and has much less developed strategies. It's still going to burn as much as it can with its breath, but the PCs can still likely bring it down by having the party wizard or druid prepare Earthbind. It's also much less likely to be cautious if it has the PCs on the ropes, much less likely to have learned the "it's not over 'til it's over" lesson; maybe it wants to savor the victory for a few rounds, or enjoy the taste of living, screaming flesh.

If you play it smart and plan ahead (like any dragon would), it'll be much more satisfying if/when the PCs win than if you send something in way out of their ability to succeed and play it awfully so it's not a turn 1 TPK.

[Cirrylius]

There's no reason the dragon's corpse HAS to be in its lair. It could have died from its wounds searching for the hero that killed it, or on its way to get help while bleeding out, or ambushed by another threat during either of those scenarios. Maybe it passed out from blood loss while flying and crashed into a deep chasm, or a lake, or someplace equally inaccessible that the corpse has remained unmolested but for natural scavengers for the last X years.

Or maybe it WASN'T undiscovered. How pissed will that Lizardman tribe be when you show up to pry that piece of narrativium out of the temple of bones they built out of their sacrificial god? How will you go about yanking a splinter of metal out of a museum's guarded prize exhibit?

[zephyrkinetic]

See, this is why my younger dragons keep their hordes in copper pieces.

This is beautiful, both in form and in function.



...it can see through the smoke with Blindsense. The smoke will not bother the dragon at all. Also, the forest will burn down eventually, and the dragon doesn't need to rush in, it can just lazily fly around high in the sky, occasionally strafing the party with fire-breath. That is literally the least amount of effort it can expend on a fight. Dragons never land and duke it out in close combat unless absolutely necessary.


Blindsense still gives 50% concealment. I think you're thinking of Blindsight. I agree with the tactics you describe for an older dragon, but this one is still young, dumb, and full of gusto. As for the "X never does Y" argument, I don't go in for sweeping generalities. There's dumb dragons. There's smart trolls. There's strong kobolds.



My suggestion would be to just use a very young or young red dragon and play to its strengths.

I may do this, now that I have some better ideas about the hoard itself. Initially, it seemed too ludicrous to have a wee babby dragon guarding a millenia old hoard.



There's no reason the dragon's corpse HAS to be in its lair. It could have died from its wounds searching for the hero that killed it, or on its way to get help while bleeding out, or ambushed by another threat during either of those scenarios. Maybe it passed out from blood loss while flying and crashed into a deep chasm, or a lake, or someplace equally inaccessible that the corpse has remained unmolested but for natural scavengers for the last X years.

Or maybe it WASN'T undiscovered. How pissed will that Lizardman tribe be when you show up to pry that piece of narrativium out of the temple of bones they built out of their sacrificial god? How will you go about yanking a splinter of metal out of a museum's guarded prize exhibit?

I may take that idea somewhere later, but for now the corpse has to be in the lair, because that's where the plot device said it was.

And your Lizardman concept... maybe I'll replace the whole dragon encounter/hoard issue by introducing the tribe as having taken over the lair.

( Side note: I had never heard "narrativium" before. That's hysterical. I lold. :smallbiggrin: )

[Fouredged Sword]

The other funny thing you could do is have it be animated. Nothing like having to pry the shard out of a bone that fights back, while the local necromancer shoots you with negative energy.

[Cirrylius]

( Side note: I had never heard "narrativium" before. That's hysterical. I lold. :smallbiggrin: )
TVtropes. You've been warned. ]8-(

[zephyrkinetic]

TVtropes. You've been warned. ]8-(

Ah, ye old TV Tropes. Shold have known. I'm familiar, but I know better than to jump in feet first. I skim, and try not to Dig Too Deep.

[Coidzor]

Well yes... was I supposed to suggest something that would not have them shed every tear and bodily fluid?

Yeah, generally I wouldn't suggest things that would lead to actual bad blood, like setting up a theme of the DM being a loot tease and keeping them in constant poverty and laughing at them as players, and suggesting things that might lead to someone getting thrown out a window just seems like a bad idea.

[magwaaf]

What are they making gold with? Unless they're alchemists, I don't know how you can make gold coins without having some gold already. Maybe the RAW allows for it, but I'd houserule against it.

we've already curbed the crafting alot with house rules. took away the frugal crafting feat. one is just a craft heavy wizard with fast item creation feats, an alcheist also with multiple fast iteam creation feats, and a magus with the "i craft more mwk weapons in a week than a dwarven god does in a month" archetype. let alone how much it cuts off of magic items especially with magic item creation feats...

it's disgusting and our dm keeps a heavy eye on it. we play in faerun so we spend every trade season as 3 months in waterdeep. more gold goes thru there during trade season than like half of the rest of the planet combined. so making money there isnt out of the normal

[Deadline]

Blindsense still gives 50% concealment. I think you're thinking of Blindsight.

True, but irrelevant when using a breath weapon.


I agree with the tactics you describe for an older dragon, but this one is still young, dumb, and full of gusto. As for the "X never does Y" argument, I don't go in for sweeping generalities. There's dumb dragons. There's smart trolls. There's strong kobolds.

Certainly true. White dragons are some of the least intelligent of Dragonkind. Reds are usually much smarter than that. But if you want just a plain brute fight, so be it. The problem with your player's solution is, if they ever run into an intelligent dragon, their plan is the worst possible thing they could do (aside from covering themselves in BBQ sauce and waiting patiently to be eaten). You actually want to catch a dragon in an enclosed space (like its lair), where it can't use the ridiculous maneuverability that all dragons have. Letting this work completely as intended is just training your players to have bad habits regarding dragons until you pull the old switcheroo. Then again, if you only ever run dragons as brutes, this won't be relevant. :smallbiggrin:

Dragon fights should be epic, memorable things. :smalltongue:

At any rate, it sounds like you've got a solid plan, and your players are having fun, so you've got the most important stuff already handled.

[Fouredged Sword]

My rule of thumb is that any dragon fight should have two stages. Ether the party starts outside and the dragon retreats into the cave or the dragon starts in the cave and retreats outside for maneuverability.

Anything less than a two scene fight is short playing the awesomeness of the dragon and cheeping the potential.

[zephyrkinetic]

At any rate, it sounds like you've got a solid plan, and your players are having fun, so you've got the most important stuff already handled.

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, I actually spent yesterday rolling up a Lizardfolk cult who worships the bones as a demigod. I threw in a Half-Red Dragon template on their leader, and doubled their treasure to still give it a pinch of the original flavor. ^__^ Even reused the original dragon's name for the Cult Leader.

Excellent help, everyone! It is greatly appreciated. Feel free to keep giving me pointers, though; apparently I have always been Terrible at Dragons.

[Jon_Dahl]

The dragon had reasons to waste some of its horde.

First, Grandaddy Swordbone was an old goat and still trying to get lucky with ladies. There was a young red dragon female who received a large portion of his loot just to let the old-timer cop a feel. Maybe they even had offspring? Grandaddy might've even been up for fathering a half-dragon and tried to woo a very powerful sorceress. Find the female and find the loot.

Second, he might've had expensive servants. He was giving away his less glamorous loot, like silver and +1 magical items, to a (insert any creature willing to serve). Find the servant and find the loot.

[Deophaun]

Actually, part of the problem is said dragon horde is not very big - volume wise.

Gold is incredibly dense (platinum even more so). And because the php tied volume to weight (i.e. 50 coins = 1 lb), treasure hordes became very small.
Actually, gold is no more or less dense than copper, silver, or platinum. Why? For the same reason you site: D&D set volume to weight, namely that there are 12,000 coins in a cubic foot, assuming they are nicely stacked. Check out Draconomicon, page 278.

[XmonkTad]

That's not the horde, that's just my Mimic holding pen.

A Lizardman cult is a great idea. Perhaps the Lizardmen are afraid that the bones will animate if the blade is removed. Could make for a fun two part fight. Part 1: lizardmen try to stop them from removing the blade. Part 2: Party and lizardmen vs zombie dragon. Zombie dragons are easier to deal with than regular dragons.

[nedz]

Maybe the Dragon lost most of his hoard in a game of Xorvintaal ?
Xorvintaal could at least explain why it would have been stored in several locations.


See, this is why my younger dragons keep their hordes in copper pieces. They just have to rob several bank wagons (copper piece deliveries don't have too many guards) and they can create a rather large stack of shinny things without overloading the value meter.
Surely this should depend upon the type of Dragon.
Copper pieces for a Copper Dragon, Silver for a Silver, though I'm not sure you'd actually want the hoard of a Blue Dragon.:smallwink:

I normally make my Dragon hoards thematic depending upon the style of the Dragon.


Not the funny part is when the players have to haul back several tons of copper.

I did this once — gave the party more treasure than they could carry. The next mission which they gave themselves was how to get six wagons into and out of the cave without drawing too much suspicion. They were very single minded.

[Fouredged Sword]

Best adventure ever was when my players followed rumors of a stolen bank wagon full of coins.

It was full of coins alright. :smallwink: AND it had a broken axle, that and a small goblin warband guarding it. 2000gp worth of copper coins.

The party bought a donkey train after that. You can lead donkeys just about anywhere and four of them can haul a serious amount of loot.

[Vintrastorm]

1. Horde isn't only gold pieces, it's silver and copper too! The reason copper is worth 1/100 of a gold piece is that it's a hell of a lot more valuable. People tend to forget that. Also, add goblets and jewelry and coffins and chandeliers etcetera.



2. Part of it could have melted together because of dragon fire and now it's more big lumps of metal than shiny metal coins. Harder to transport and much harder to make valuable/sell. X magic items and other more valuable "normal" items could be stuck in that lump of metal. Partially visible or totally invisible.