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Yora
2014-02-04, 01:51 PM
This is a problem that is especially noticable in D&D, but probably affects almost any RPG that has dragons.

Usually dragons are supposed to be super-awesome and the most powerful beasts around, but at the same time most campaigns take place at lower levels where PCs aren't capable of taking on these massive beasts in an equal fight.
You could always use weaker dragons, and in D&D dragons can be found in sizes small enough that even a first level party might have a shot, but doing that would almost always feel just lame. If you are going to fight the biggest, meanest creature in the world, you want to defeat the real thing, not a downsized kiddy-version. It's particularly bad in D&D, which made dragons not only big and powerful, but also hyper-intelligent and capable spellcasters. In D&D 3rd Ed., a party would have to be about 9th or 10th level to be able to fight the weakest of the big dragons, and I think I've seen only two groups that ever got to such a high level.

So what are your thoughts about giving dragons a presence in non-high level campaigns?

unbeliever536
2014-02-04, 02:00 PM
You could just treat the dragon as a part of the environment. Fighting it, then, is a whole seriesof encounters along the lines of fighting your way through a heavily trapped dungeon. The party never faces the dragon in a straight-up fight; instead they spend the whole day fighting it. This also lets the gm give the dragon a more cinematic death than "that last sword-stroke, unlike the previous ten, kill the beast.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 02:07 PM
AD&D 2E and D&D 3.X had dragon inflation: dragons of any reasonable age became hugely more powerful.

For comparison, Khisanth, the black dragon lairing in Xak Tsaroth in the AD&D 1E module DL1 Dragons of Despair, is an ancient huge black dragon... with 8 HD and 64 hp (the maximum). That's the strongest a black dragon can be in AD&D 1E, unless you use the optional age categories from the original Forgotten Realms supplement. The default PCs are 3rd to 6th level.

So in AD&D 1E, a party averaging 4½th level or so could take on the mightiest standard black dragon.

edit: Khisanth's breath weapon deals a flat 100% of her hit points, halved by a successful save, this being AD&D 1E. If Khisanth is uninjured, that's almost enough to kill Tanis, Caramon, Riverwind, or Flint at full health even on a successful save, and on a failed save will kill any of the default PCs on one hit. So it is pretty epic and dangerous to fight Khisanth. /edit

It's a matter of scale, and not nearly all RPGs hyper-inflate dragons' mechanical capabilities the way AD&D 2E, D&D 3E, and D&D 4E do. There's no objective or external measure by which this is necessary. Indeed, looking at the source material (the Volsungasaga, Saint George, The Hobbit, etc.) a single mid-level fighter should be able to solo dragons, if at great risk...

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-04, 02:26 PM
Indeed, looking at the source material (…The Hobbit…) a single mid-level fighter should be able to solo dragons, if at great risk...The book, not the movie. That was some bull-donk! :smallyuk:

To clarify, the movie has a thirty-plus-minute fight scene in which Bilbo and the dwarves drown Smaug in molten gold. It also retconned Bard's black arrow as a giant effin' harpoon fired from a massive metal ballista.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 02:30 PM
The book, not the movie. That was some bull-donk! :smallyuk:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I fell asleep during the first, second, and third hour-long exhausting unnecessary fight scenes that weren't in the book. :smallamused:

Edit: Oh, also, Turin Turambar and Glaurung, the second-most iconic dragon of Middle-Earth.

Zombimode
2014-02-04, 02:35 PM
Usually dragons are supposed to be super-awesome and the most powerful beasts around, but at the same time most campaigns take place at lower levels where PCs aren't capable of taking on these massive beasts in an equal fight.

Your use of the word "but" indicates some sort of contradiction, but to me the second phrase seems to be a conclusion from the first. I don't see the conflict.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 02:37 PM
Your use of the word "but" indicates some sort of contradiction, but to me the second phrase seems to be a conclusion from the first. I don't see the conflict.

It's "dragons are iconic but most PCs can't fight them," i.e. in D&D 3.X, it's rare for a dragon of impressive age & size to be even a remotely suitable challenge for PCs.

Kish
2014-02-04, 02:38 PM
Your use of the word "but" indicates some sort of contradiction, but to me the second phrase seems to be a conclusion from the first. I don't see the conflict.
Yes, this.

I prefer to have dragons as NPCs the PCs can't simply beat up, unless the PCs are in "epic hero" range, and even if they can kill a dragon it's not ever something they'll file as "killed 12 orcs and 2 dragons today."

Blarmb
2014-02-04, 02:45 PM
You could just treat the dragon as a part of the environment. Fighting it, then, is a whole seriesof encounters along the lines of fighting your way through a heavily trapped dungeon. The party never faces the dragon in a straight-up fight; instead they spend the whole day fighting it. This also lets the gm give the dragon a more cinematic death than "that last sword-stroke, unlike the previous ten, kill the beast.

Correct Answer.

Red Fel
2014-02-04, 02:48 PM
So what are your thoughts about giving dragons a presence in non-high level campaigns?

1. Not all dragons are monsters. You have plenty of powerful NPCs - the King, the Guildmaster, the Wizard Who Lives On The Hill - why not the Dragon? Maybe he's tyrannical, maybe he's benevolent, maybe he's a leader of men or a religious figure, maybe he dwells among mortals in disguise, maybe he lives openly. You can make him a non-combat encounter, at which point you don't have to worry about his stats (unless your players are suicidal).

2. Not all dragons are present. A dragon can have a presence in a campaign without being present. You can have the stories of Tabazak, an ancient Gold Dragon who lived centuries ago, whose image is emblazoned across sacred ruins and modern temples, whose legacy gave rise to the current monarchy. You can have legends speak of Gabsican, a Silver Dragon who holds the secret to some great magical spell, who lives in hiding in the Mountains of the Mist, and whom countless heroes have sought, but none have found. A dragon can have an impact on the campaign, even if you never meet him face to face.

3. Not all dragons are dragons. As suggested above, the PCs may encounter a dragon disguised as another creature. Don't expect this dragon-in-disguise to use the full array of its draconic powers.

4. Not all dragons take you seriously. If the PCs do fight a dragon, it may toy with them rather than brutalize them. It may playfully bat them around a bit, before tiring of them and departing. Note that, if the PCs try to keep it around, its playfulness may turn into annoyance.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 02:54 PM
Yes, this.

I prefer to have dragons as NPCs the PCs can't simply beat up, unless the PCs are in "epic hero" range, and even if they can kill a dragon it's not ever something they'll file as "killed 12 orcs and 2 dragons today."

I generally agree, in that I think dragons should require special effort, one way or another. Either you need special preparation (like killing Vermithrax Pejorative in Dragonslayer), or you need to be a mythical hero (Gilgamesh/Marduk and Tiamat and the whole Proto-Eurasian "hero fights chaos water dragon" motif)...

But, in the context of D&D specifically, I don't think it's necessary to put dragons as enemies in the upper level range only or primarily. In AD&D, finishing around 9th - 12th level was much more common than 20th level, so it made much sense that the toughest dragons would be appropriate opponents around those levels. "Mythical hero" isn't defined by the rules as any particular level range.

ShadowFireLance
2014-02-04, 02:56 PM
Well, for starters...

1) In truth, all Dragons would actually be smarter than Humans. They're both Nigh immortal, and natural spellcasters. They wouldn't be caught dead in any disadvantage.

2) They. Don't. Land. They strafe the party, they don't Ever land.

3) At lower levels, yeah, you kill the young Dragon, but I swear to Tiamat if the Elder isn't around the corner, BS will be called. May just be me, but If you don't Dragon right, don't Dragon.

4) Prep Time. Dragons can scry. Dragons really don't like surprises (Personal experience here.) so they would know pretty much everything about the Party.

5) They're the closest mortals to godhood. It follows that they would possess the following of ones. Use Tucker's Kobolds to beat the crap outta them first, THEN have them face the Dragon.

About all I got right now, I'll be back at some point to finish.

Coidzor
2014-02-04, 02:57 PM
So what are your thoughts about giving dragons a presence in non-high level campaigns?

Well, you either downgrade the dragons or you upgrade the power level of starting characters. Or you accept that you want to start at a higher level than level 1/introductory characters.

As far as I can tell, it's just that simple.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 03:00 PM
1. Not all dragons are monsters
2. Not all dragons are present.
3. Not all dragons are dragons.
4. Not all dragons take you seriously.

I like these ideas, too.

For instance, in Glorantha (RuneQuest/HeroQuest), there are enormously powerful dream dragons, minor legless winged wyrms, and dragonewts (neotenic humanoid dragons who are reincarnated over and over according to their spiritual progress in an effort to transcend the physical world)... but the True Dragons (like True Giants) are creatures that fought on an equal footing with the greatest gods before Time began. Now, most are only present as geography - mountain and hill ranges are frequently named for dragons, because their sleeping forms form a large part of that range. There's also the Dragon-Emperor of Kralorela, who takes a human form. So that's basically all four.

Meanwhile, in Dark Sun, there's just one Dragon (not counting the revised edition Troy Denning incomplete-dragon-king material), and he's a force of nature more than an enemy to be conquered. I like the possibility, the opportunity, the theory of the PCs one day fighting the Dragon in my Dark Sun setting... but at the same time, I'm not going to make them, and I'm not going to "let" them win - if they want to do that, they have to take the initiative and they have to earn that victory, probably at incredible cost. Until then, the Dragon will be more akin to sandstorms and droughts: something terrible and deadly but almost impossible to resist or overcome directly.


1) In truth, all Dragons would actually be smarter than Humans. They're both Nigh immortal, and natural spellcasters. They wouldn't be caught dead in any disadvantage.

Most D&D dragons would almost certainly be younger than the average elven wizard of 200-300 years, and especially in e.g. AD&D 1E (and many other games), their lifespans are no greater and (again, in AD&D 1E) may even be shorter than those of elves. This true of, for instance, Middle-Earth.

Also, age doesn't make them smarter past their own limits for intellect. Even in D&D, there are references to dragons becoming decrepit and suffering old age after a certain point. Nevermind that dragons might just not be able to be smart past a certain quantity, or be smart in a certain way.

1337 b4k4
2014-02-04, 03:17 PM
It's a matter of scale, and not nearly all RPGs hyper-inflate dragons' mechanical capabilities the way AD&D 2E, D&D 3E, and D&D 4E do. There's no objective or external measure by which this is necessary. Indeed, looking at the source material (the Volsungasaga, Saint George, The Hobbit, etc.) a single mid-level fighter should be able to solo dragons, if at great risk...

Well, to be fair, in the Hobbit, that single mid-level fighter does so only with a an ancestral (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AncestralWeapon) legendary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LegendaryWeapon) weapon and only after a previous epic battle (with an army no less) uncovered the weak spot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttackItsWeakPoint). Saint George (depending on your version) didn't actually kill his dragon in a battle, he dealt it a wound and while it was reeling, charmed it and then coup de gras'd it later in the city. And while some later tellings describe the dragon as massive, most artistic depictions show it as not larger than a horse. Fafnir was a massive dragon, but wasn't killed in outright combat either, it was a trap. Granted said trap was effective because Fafnir was not a giant bag of HP, but none the less an outright battle would have been suicide.

All of that is to say while D&D has definitely inflated their dragons over the years, especially given that in legend not all dragons are massive towering creatures, they aren't pushovers either and D&D likely makes them mechanically difficult to take on in a toe to toe battler precisely because in legend, you don't take on a dragon toe to toe, you stack the deck.

To answer the OP's question, if my players are going to take on the dragon head on, it's probably going to go exactly by the mechanics. One does not simply walk into the dragon's lair without some preparation. On the other hand, if my players are going to be clever about it, I'm more apt to go with some version of the 16 HP Dragon (from Dungeon World) (http://www.latorra.org/2012/05/15/a-16-hp-dragon/). It still may not be easy, but they also won't have to paper cut it to death.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-04, 03:20 PM
It's "dragons are iconic but most PCs can't fight them," i.e. in D&D 3.X, it's rare for a dragon of impressive age & size to be even a remotely suitable challenge for PCs.

That's how they get to such an age. If any loser could just up and kill a 3,000 year old dragon, it probably wouldn't have lived that long.


The Hobbit

a single mid-level fighter should be able to solo dragons, if at great risk...

1. Bard didn't "solo" Smaug. He had an entire town tanking for him, plus every archer in that town giving damage support.

2. If I were to represent that fight in mechanical terms, I'd say that Bard scored a ridiculous attack with exploding dice (i.e. roll 6->roll another die) in a diepool game like Shadowrun or WoD (where one could theoretically one-shot a dragon, but it's not realistic).

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 03:20 PM
only after a previous epic battle (with an army no less) uncovered the weak spot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttackItsWeakPoint).

Er, Bilbo noticed the weak spot while speaking to Smaug, and then a bird flew over to relay the information to Bard. The Battle of the Five Armies takes place after the dragon is dead. (My favorite part of dragonslaying adventures: securing the loot!)

Driderman
2014-02-04, 03:51 PM
Generally, unless my setting dictates otherwise, dragons are pretty much in the same category as Gods typically are, meaning that if you want to kill one it's probably going to be the central goal of a longer story.

In my current setting, dragons are Gods, albeit impostor gods. Still, they have enough magical ability to have grown immensely powerful through the worship of the mortal races and as such, would require either relics or power from the Original Gods, or a dragon patron, to defeat. Assuming you could even reach them in their inhospitable lairs that have been formed and improved over centuries.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-02-04, 04:07 PM
(The thread title has me imagining a catchy earworm song. How do you dragon? Dragon? Ah-cha-cha-cha.)

Toofey
2014-02-04, 04:26 PM
I typically DM 2nd ed, so keep that in mind with regards to all the mechanics issues I raise.

First off, an encounter with a dragon is always an encounter where any of the characters involved could die, and I don't handwave deaths in those fights. I make this clear to the players at the start of any given campaign (I think every campaign should have at least 1 good dragon fight)

I divide dragons into smart, normal, and stupid categories and Gigantic, Huge and Large.

Smart dragons I give the XP of their effective casting level as both a wizard and a Cleric or to distribute as they will. Normal dragons get the XP of either a cleric or wizard, and stupid dragons get the normal abilities listed in the monsters manual. G dragons get D12 with Max hp H dragons get D10 with max hp and Large dragons get the normal D8 (also at max, it is still a dragon after all)

I double the number of claw attacks, give them a prehensile tail with it's own slap and constriction attacks, and I play them to their intelligence.

Finally, I remember that dragons are people to. As in they are as inteligent and have the depth of life experience of a person as opposed to simply being gigantic monsters. This means everything from sufficiently experienced dragons having a full slate of wizard and/or priest tricks (including enchantments etc...) to Dragons being open to conversation as often as not, and willing to accept your surrender (honestly or with plans to kill you anyway depending on the dragon)

Finally I almost never use a full on Dragon as a random encounter, and typically I make it clear when people are in Dragon territories. the biggest part to making sure dragons are special as opposed to just very powerful, is to use them when it' special.

Azreal
2014-02-04, 04:53 PM
Most D&D dragons would almost certainly be younger than the average elven wizard of 200-300 years, and especially in e.g. AD&D 1E (and many other games), their lifespans are no greater and (again, in AD&D 1E) may even be shorter than those of elves. This true of, for instance, Middle-Earth.

Also, age doesn't make them smarter past their own limits for intellect. Even in D&D, there are references to dragons becoming decrepit and suffering old age after a certain point. Nevermind that dragons might just not be able to be smart past a certain quantity, or be smart in a certain way.

The shortest lived dragon in DnD according to 3.5 books is a white dragon at like 5,000, which is what 5x the Elf lifespan?
Gold Dragons can live up to 10,000 years, that's 10 elf life spans, and like 100 human lifetimes assuming they even live that long.

Dragons in DnD have stats that increase with age save Dex (because a moving mountain while impossible to break you can still hit it) to the like 40s.

I'm sorry but they are second to gods and the terrasqe in terms of power and shouldn't be treated lightly. There's a reason they lived for millennium so I don't think pulling punches for older dragons is cool.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 04:57 PM
The shortest lived dragon in DnD according to 3.5 books is a white dragon at like 5,000, which is what 5x the Elf lifespan?
Gold Dragons can live up to 10,000 years, that's 10 elf life spans, and like 100 human lifetimes assuming they even live that long.

I assume that's the D&D 3.X Draconomicon? The numbers shake out very different in, say, AD&D 1E, nevermind other settings/games.


I'm sorry but they are second to gods and the terrasqe in terms of power and shouldn't be treated lightly. There's a reason they lived for millennium so I don't think pulling punches for older dragons is cool.

Oh, my bad, I thought since you were quoting me you were talking about something I wrote, but I see that's not the case - you're talking about something someone else said (or that no one said, I guess).

That's cool too!

veti
2014-02-04, 05:12 PM
AD&D 2E and D&D 3.X had dragon inflation: dragons of any reasonable age became hugely more powerful.

For comparison, Khisanth, the black dragon lairing in Xak Tsaroth in the AD&D 1E module DL1 Dragons of Despair, is an ancient huge black dragon... with 8 HD and 64 hp (the maximum). That's the strongest a black dragon can be in AD&D 1E, unless you use the optional age categories from the original Forgotten Realms supplement. The default PCs are 3rd to 6th level.

Well, yes, but everything remotely high-level has been subject to inflation since 1st edition. Tiamat herself had, IIRC, 120 hit points - the same as Orcus. Those default PCs would be considered 'mid-level' by 1e standards.

At low levels, dragons are more or less features of the landscape. A dragon is something like a mobile volcano, and about as easy to kill. You might, by great luck, succeed in outwitting or robbing it, but it's an incredibly high-risk thing to attempt.

At high levels, that changes. Bard, Beowulf, St George - a dragon can be taken out by a sufficiently well prepared hero.

Jay R
2014-02-04, 05:18 PM
Well, you either downgrade the dragons or you upgrade the power level of starting characters. Or you accept that you want to start at a higher level than level 1/introductory characters.

As far as I can tell, it's just that simple.

Or starting characters don't take on near-epic-level threats.

When Bilbo snuck into the mountain, he didn't attack the dragon. He really, really didn't. The Men of Lake-Town, and the Mirkwood elves, lived for 170 years with Smaug nearby on a mountain of gold and never tried to attack him.

He's a Dragon.

If starting characters are ready to fight a dragon, then the awe and majesty of dragons has been lost.

Rhynn
2014-02-04, 05:18 PM
Well, yes, but everything remotely high-level has been subject to inflation since 1st edition. Tiamat herself had, IIRC, 120 hit points - the same as Orcus. Those default PCs would be considered 'mid-level' by 1e standards.

Er, yeah. That was my point. They made things tougher, increasing the levels that you need to be at to fight them. Yora's complaint was that you need to be high-level in D&D 3.X to fight dragons. I observed that this is not the case in many other RPGs.

I could swear I wrote all that already.

Edit: Also, where are y'all getting "starting characters" ? Not from Yora's post, that's for sure.

Azreal
2014-02-04, 05:25 PM
I assume that's the D&D 3.X Draconomicon? The numbers shake out very different in, say, AD&D 1E, nevermind other settings/games.



Oh, my bad, I thought since you were quoting me you were talking about something I wrote, but I see that's not the case - you're talking about something someone else said (or that no one said, I guess).

That's cool too!

Yeah I believe it's the Draconomicon, I was talking about the more played systems (at least as far as I know) of DnD/Pathfinder


the second part of your quote from me was not directed at you more so then OP in that Dragons just typically aren't something you go out of your way to fight for the hell of it. They are powerhouses and rightfully so, the series was named in part for them. You can get away with killing younger dragons but at about Adulthood they starting around damage and resistance and ****ing spells like no one's business.

paddyfool
2014-02-04, 06:12 PM
Of course, if you want to throw a big flying lizard at your low level characters, there's always a Wyvern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wyvern.htm). (You could even give it a level in Psychic Warrior or something to represent uncanny powers and throw your players off...)

kieza
2014-02-04, 07:26 PM
My approach (which owes a lot to the Iron Kingdoms setting) is that dragons can create dragonspawn: creatures with various draconic traits, but much smaller and weaker, and bound to the will of the dragon. They're basically hosts that their creator dragon can possess, no matter where they are.

I've run two adventures featuring them; in the first, the boss at the end of the adventure was a dragonspawn that survived the death of its creator. It was more like a wyvern, physically, but it had a breath weapon and kept most of its creator's knowledge of magic. Over the course of the adventure, the party put together several clues and realized that the reason it survived was that it was the original dragon's back-up plan: given enough time, it would have regrown into a copy of the original, with most of its memories intact. (They killed it, though.)

In the second adventure, the organization that the party was up against had the backing of a dragon, and it sent them a few of its spawn, both as a symbol of its support, and to keep them in line. There was (if I recall) a big, brutal thing with lots of teeth and claws but no wings or breath weapon, a serpentine one with lots of legs that liked to grapple and constrict, and a humanoid one (sort of half-dragon-ish) that was an enchanter and diplomat. I had fun tossing various tag-team boss fights at the party with different combinations of the spawn.

I've also dropped hints in my campaigns that kobolds might be related to dragonspawn somehow...

some guy
2014-02-04, 07:33 PM
Wyverns and drakes?
They're dragon enough to look like dragons (and might fool npc's) and could still put up a tough fight for low-mid level pc's.
The blog Playing dnd with pornstars (occasionaly nsfw, not this blogpost though) had a post about this problem (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.nl/2009/10/moat-dragon.html).

Raine_Sage
2014-02-04, 07:59 PM
I think the best way to do dragons at low levels is probably to treat them more like a trap or hazard than actual enemies.

Sneaking through a dragon's lair trying to steal an artifact, negotiating with a dragon, running through town trying to get to safety while a dragon rains fire down from above. Non-combat encounters which can turn into potential combat at higher levels once they've had a chance to get more powerful.

Tvtyrant
2014-02-04, 08:31 PM
I use dragon babies at low levels, and always make the dragon of whatever age good enough to almost kill the party by itself. If the party is level 1 they might fight a lone wyrmling who is worshipped by a local tribe of Kobolds and is napping in his copper coin bed when the party shows up. A level 5 party might face the same wyrmling along with kobolds using nets, lassos and alchemists fire out in the open. A level 10 party would fight the same wyrmling with their entire clutch of siblings after fighting the Bluespawn Godslayer that serves as their nanny (I use dragonspawn as dragon nannies. It works.)

SiuiS
2014-02-05, 04:29 AM
No dragon should ever be "there is a dragon and you are within ranged/melee distance, roll initiative. Beat a seven."

Dragons should be "the dragon amathraduil liars off the west peninsula and has been ravaging the coast. He is the size of a small pony, with wings like a one man skiff and teeth that clear through rock like butter. You'll have to examine his habits and attitudes in order to set yourself up to not brutally die because he's maybe twelve feet long but he will eat your ass because he's a dragon".

Seharvepernfan
2014-02-05, 10:26 AM
I think even baby dragons can be seen as scary and dangerous to PC's, so I have no problem using them. In an upcoming adventure, my PC's (at 1st or 2nd level) are going up against a CR 1 dragon that is basically a 1HD green dragon; but they're going to be fighting it in a pitch-black cave that has submerged tunnels. Even a DC 10, 2d3 acid breath is scary in the right circumstances (like swimming in the dark), especially when the bugger is tiny and put ranks in hide and move silently. That said, this same dragon in a normal, lit room would be curb-stomped by even a 1st level party.

I guess my point is that it's the presentation and use of the dragon that matters, not it's size or dragon-ness.

I'm not a fan of ridiculously massive dragons anyway. I'll never use a "true" dragon larger than huge. Maybe gargantuan for a land-bound tank-like dragon, or a limbless flying dragon (like a linnorm or asian dragon), and maybe colossal for sea serpents.

Anyway, if you want to use the whole "ancient immortal super-genius nothing-more-dangerous-than-me" thing, you can still do that in non-high-level campaigns. Make the dragon be huge at largest, give him a whole pecking order of minions, give him preparatory advantage, give him clout, the whole shebang. Make the party have to do their homework, plan carefully, secure alliances with other powerful folk to form a sort of super-party, and get an army put together to hold off the dragon's minions, have them get a bunch of specialized gear just to fight the dragon with, etc. Even at like, CR 11, it can still maintain an "epic" feel.

Amaril
2014-02-05, 11:00 AM
In one of my settings, I've scaled my dragons down pretty significantly, so that they're possible, but still extremely difficult, for normal people to kill. They're slightly bigger than a large horse, not including wings, which have a span of about 20 feet in adult specimens. They're not human-level intelligent, but are more cunning than most animals (let's say, about as smart as a gorilla), and they've been known to live as long as 70 years if not killed. Most importantly, they don't breathe fire--instead, they have throat glands that produce acidic bile that they can spit at long distances or deliver through bites. My goal was to bring these dragons back to how they were seen in older mythology, as loathsome wyrms rather than mighty, glorious godlike beings. You don't have to be a great hero to kill one, but if you're not, then you'd better have a company of at least ten heavily armed hunters to back you up.

Knaight
2014-02-05, 12:01 PM
Dragons should be "the dragon amathraduil liars off the west peninsula and has been ravaging the coast. He is the size of a small pony, with wings like a one man skiff and teeth that clear through rock like butter. You'll have to examine his habits and attitudes in order to set yourself up to not brutally die because he's maybe twelve feet long but he will eat your ass because he's a dragon".

On the other hand, there's room for the big, dangerous, and smart by reptile standards fire breathing lizard which can be handled more easily. Personally I prefer these, with even the largest ones being comparable in size to a particularly large crocodile*.

*I mean a modern crocodile here, not one of those behemoths that coexisted with dinosaurs.

SiuiS
2014-02-05, 12:17 PM
On the other hand, there's room for the big, dangerous, and smart by reptile standards fire breathing lizard which can be handled more easily. Personally I prefer these, with even the largest ones being comparable in size to a particularly large crocodile*.

*I mean a modern crocodile here, not one of those behemoths that coexisted with dinosaurs.

Well, I don't see that as any different. It's not the intelligence, it's the inherent danger you want to highlight. In an HP system, folks with 110 HP think the first 109 don't count, so it breeds a sense of safety that just shouldn't exist when a territorial aerial flamethrower with crocodile jaws could remove your limbs and roast entire areas.

I want Players to try to, say, catch the dragon after it's eaten and it's slow and sated, block off the entrance to it's cave, dump rocks on it and arrows to pierce the wings, fight in the valley right there to mitigate it's tail and back legs, and stay in the open V so they aren't breath weapon fodder or else they die. Not because it's an ancient, elegant super genius but because it's a freaking terrifying monster with capabilities that don't boil down to Numbers so much as Options.

Dragons are qualitative threats (flight, AoE, resistances, armor, etc.) not just quantitative (attacks by damage by attack bonus for offense percentage, armor by DR by hp for defensive limits, compile).

Knaight
2014-02-05, 12:58 PM
Well, I don't see that as any different. It's not the intelligence, it's the inherent danger you want to highlight. In an HP system, folks with 110 HP think the first 109 don't count, so it breeds a sense of safety that just shouldn't exist when a territorial aerial flamethrower with crocodile jaws could remove your limbs and roast entire areas.

My point is that the non-intelligent dragon, while dangerous, isn't necessarily worse than other things and could likely be handled by a few expert combatants. It's smarter to wait until they've eaten and hit the lair, the same way it's smarter to attack a group of people from ambush, but the straight fight against a group of people could easily be the nastier fight.

Rhynn
2014-02-05, 01:01 PM
In one of my settings, I've scaled my dragons down pretty significantly, so that they're possible, but still extremely difficult, for normal people to kill. They're slightly bigger than a large horse, not including wings, which have a span of about 20 feet in adult specimens.

Fun fact: most of the dragons in the art of the original Dragonlance modules look to be about this scale. A 10-15' armored fire-breathing lizard is still completely freaking terrifying!

SiuiS
2014-02-05, 01:32 PM
My point is that the non-intelligent dragon, while dangerous, isn't necessarily worse than other things and could likely be handled by a few expert combatants. It's smarter to wait until they've eaten and hit the lair, the same way it's smarter to attack a group of people from ambush, but the straight fight against a group of people could easily be the nastier fight.

I would think a dragon is inherently more dangerous beig a fantastic creature, but then I don't suppose you're comparing it to normal animals.


Fun fact: most of the dragons in the art of the original Dragonlance modules look to be about this scale. A 10-15' armored fire-breathing lizard is still completely freaking terrifying!

We call those "fighter jets" and they've been proven to bring the noise, yes~

Amaril
2014-02-05, 01:34 PM
Fun fact: most of the dragons in the art of the original Dragonlance modules look to be about this scale. A 10-15' armored fire-breathing lizard is still completely freaking terrifying!

It was the image of the Dragon of Tyr (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/dragotyr.gif) that inspired my image of these dragons (I have no idea how big that one is supposed to be, but I like the shape and the movement). Old editions had everything better :smalltongue:

Rhynn
2014-02-05, 02:06 PM
It was the image of the Dragon of Tyr (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/dragotyr.gif) that inspired my image of these dragons (I have no idea how big that one is supposed to be, but I like the shape and the movement). Old editions had everything better :smalltongue:

The Dragon of Tyr is 40' tall, actually. :smallcool:

Zombimode
2014-02-05, 03:13 PM
It was the image of the Dragon of Tyr (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/dragotyr.gif) that inspired my image of these dragons (I have no idea how big that one is supposed to be, but I like the shape and the movement). Old editions had everything better :smalltongue:

Well, depends on the edition, it seems. 2e dragons are much more massive in size then even the largest 3.x dragons. I don't have the numbers before me, but a red Great Wyrm was the largest and measured from head to tail about 110 meters. For you Americans: that's about 330 feet.

ShadowFireLance
2014-02-05, 03:46 PM
Well, depends on the edition, it seems. 2e dragons are much more massive in size then even the largest 3.x dragons. I don't have the numbers before me, but a red Great Wyrm was the largest and measured from head to tail about 110 meters. For you Americans: that's about 330 feet.

I can name a couple of Dragons that've actually reached that length, but they don't normally grow to that length.

Rhynn
2014-02-05, 03:54 PM
Yup, AD&D 2E dragons grow to ridiculous sizes. In AD&D 1E, a black dragon is 30' long, a red dragon is 48'. No variation is described in the 1E Monstrous Manual.

To be clear, a 2E red dragon hits 300' total length at the 10th age category (venerable). The 12th age category, great wyrm, is 174-183' body and 162-171' tail. That's freaking immense!

For comparison, over here (http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/05/11/71530-analysis-just-how-big-is-jacksons-smaug/3/) someone calculates Smaug in the new movie to be around 200 feet, body and tail.

Zombimode
2014-02-05, 04:04 PM
Yup, AD&D 2E dragons grow to ridiculous sizes.

Your ridicule is my adequacy :smallcool:

The_Tentacle
2014-02-05, 04:54 PM
In one of my settings, I've scaled my dragons down pretty significantly, so that they're possible, but still extremely difficult, for normal people to kill. They're slightly bigger than a large horse, not including wings, which have a span of about 20 feet in adult specimens. They're not human-level intelligent, but are more cunning than most animals (let's say, about as smart as a gorilla), and they've been known to live as long as 70 years if not killed. Most importantly, they don't breathe fire--instead, they have throat glands that produce acidic bile that they can spit at long distances or deliver through bites. My goal was to bring these dragons back to how they were seen in older mythology, as loathsome wyrms rather than mighty, glorious godlike beings. You don't have to be a great hero to kill one, but if you're not, then you'd better have a company of at least ten heavily armed hunters to back you up.

And after facing a bunch of these, you break out the ones that talk and try to tempt the party or something!

Amaril
2014-02-05, 10:01 PM
And after facing a bunch of these, you break out the ones that talk and try to tempt the party or something!

Hmm...I've debated my Big Bad having bio-engineered super-dragons among his monstrous hordes...maybe those ones could be big and talk and breathe fire :smallamused:

Fiery Diamond
2014-02-05, 10:07 PM
Your ridicule is my adequacy :smallcool:

My thoughts exactly. Dragons size Large are itty bitty.

Knaight
2014-02-05, 10:38 PM
My thoughts exactly. Dragons size Large are itty bitty.

That's one approach. I prefer the 'Huge as the maximum for just about anything other than a few marine animals' approach.

Worira
2014-02-05, 11:03 PM
A Large dragon is basically a flying, fire-breathing rhino. That's not really within the realm of what I would typically consider "itty-bitty".

Slipperychicken
2014-02-06, 12:16 AM
A Large dragon is basically a flying, fire-breathing rhino. That's not really within the realm of what I would typically consider "itty-bitty".

Even horses are fairly intimidating up close. They're quite tall, and you just know that if one of them decides to kick or trample you, you're not going to fare well unless you're armed, especially if there's an armed rider on top.

So yeah, a horse-sized dinosaur with wings and an elemental cannon is going to be pretty darn scary if it rushes you or something.

Axinian
2014-02-06, 12:23 AM
I always size dragons up to at least large size, regardless of age category. I'm not fond of PCs fighting small dragons. This doesn't mean changing their stats mind you, just the amount of space they take up. Sometimes I inflict size penalties, sometimes give them an HP bonus, but mostly just resize them. The "Giant" simple template works well, but sometimes you don't want to increase the CR of something notoriously under-CRed :smalltongue:

Broken Twin
2014-02-06, 12:41 AM
Honestly, I never really liked the idea of dragons as spellcasters. My dragons don't cast magic, my dragons embody magic. They breath it, they're infused with it, it courses through their body like blood. They certainly don't do anything as mundane as cast spells with it.

In D&D terms, I prefer to run them as low Intelligence but high Wisdom. They're ruthless predators who rely on their (un)natural gifts to completely overpower any opposition.

In my current setting, there's three types of dragons, only one of which counts as what would normally be considered a dragon. Sky dragons are the smallest, about the size of a large horse. They'll strafe you from the air spitting globs of acidic flame. Land dragons don't have wings, but they're huge, and they can tear through dwarven armor like paper, if they don't cook whoever's inside with their flamethrower breath first. The most terrifying are definitely the ocean dragons though. These colossal serpents may not have limbs, but they don't need them to swallow small ships whole. The only warning you'll get that one is coming is when the water begins to bubble and steam.

Of course, all dragons in this setting have a fondness for magic items. They feed off of the auras in much the same way as they feed off of carcasses. Tributes to these beasts usually involve many cattle and enchanted goods to entice a return to hibernation.

SiuiS
2014-02-06, 01:48 AM
For comparison, over here (http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/05/11/71530-analysis-just-how-big-is-jacksons-smaug/3/) someone calculates Smaug in the new movie to be around 200 feet, body and tail.

Oh. Uh, wow. :smalleek:


Your ridicule is my adequacy :smallcool:

Word.

HolyCouncilMagi
2014-02-06, 02:06 AM
Well, I'm sort of a magic junkie if you can't tell by my username, but as somebody who thinks it's legit to use the Huge dragons in E6 campaigns, I'll tell you what I think of dragons; they should be in low-level campaigns only as something far beyond what they can even really comprehend. One word: Dragonlance. No, seriously, in the first book, they embodied perfectly what a dragon should be. They should have better casting than the party mage, they should be wise, intelligent, and even charismatic beyond the comprehension of most lesser races, they should inspire fear with their ability to one-shot your Barbarian with a breath attack, and they should require either insane tactics or full-force plotkai to kill, and even then it should be the grandest of battles with the heroes irredeemably on the disadvantaged side. Great courage, strategy, and power beyond the scope of your own mortality; this is what it should mean to fight a dragon at low levels.

Erberor
2014-02-06, 02:45 AM
Frankly, I think there is an excellent point to be made about separating the "mundane" dragon from the unspeakably powerful beasts that rule the skys/land/seas/everything.

I have something like this in my own campaign setting, where there are two kinds of dragons, first the "generic" dragons like red, black, silver, and so on.

Then there are elemental dragons. Dragons whose blood is formed out the elements they embody, possessing the power to wield unbelievable power using their natural magical ability. And that doesn't mean spells, that means directly manipulating magical energy at a fundamental level.

There is no way an elder red dragon could possibly take on a well aged Chaos dragon.

Driderman
2014-02-06, 02:45 AM
Even horses are fairly intimidating up close. They're quite tall, and you just know that if one of them decides to kick or trample you, you're not going to fare well unless you're armed, especially if there's an armed rider on top.


How is being armed going to save you from getting kicked in the head, exactly? :smallwink:

BrokenChord
2014-02-06, 02:56 AM
It really depends on the tone of the campaign. If your game is supposed to treat dragons like HCM's games apparently do, then treat them, well, as he treats them. Some people, though, don't like that. I mean, some groups think dragons should be challenging while appearing as the incincible powerhouses with just a size-up, or as yet more posters mentioned, you can play the babies to their strengths, or lessen the intelligence aspect of dragons immensely and make it hardcore hunting; technically possible for hardcore non-adventures, but equivalent to a real person hunting an elephant with nothing but a hunting knife.

The main point is that it's different for everyone depending on expectations, but there are lots of viable ways to have the players face dragons in low-level campaigns. Heck, as Red Fel pointed out, they can even play important roles without the players fighting one.

Personally, I like a more Skyrimmy take on dragons minus the videogamey repetition and plus spells; I like it when dragons are the mightiest of opponents and often max out even a well-rested party's resources with everything they have set up before they even fight it, but the party can still fairly realistically fight and win against them, and I prefer them being much more common than I usually hear about them being portrayed. But I'm probably mostly alone in that opinion.

Knaight
2014-02-06, 03:16 AM
How is being armed going to save you from getting kicked in the head, exactly? :smallwink:

Dead horses don't kick. This doesn't help if you're, say, brushing a horse and it decides to kick you out of nowhere, but it helps if you have an aggressive horse coming at you from far enough away to do something about it. At the very least, there's the instincts horses have about pointy sticks, and how "go towards them" isn't on the instinct list.

Mastikator
2014-02-06, 08:34 AM
I think you can totally have a dragon in a non-high level game, just as long as the dragon's first instinct isn't to step on the PCs.
Dragons love precious metals and jewels, but I think they should also love art, literature, music and even creatures that are especially beautiful (such as people). A bard that sneaks into a dragon's lair might have trouble escaping, but that may be because the dragon wants to add the bard to his treasure, and I mean the living singing pretty bard. Or maybe the dragon would want to have an intelligent debate with the wizard that snuck in. And if a warrior tries to attack the dragon, he might not even view that as a challenge anymore than a human would if a house cat tried to pounce you.

Dragons live basically forever and are almost never challenged in any real capacity, they should (despite their wisdom and intelligence) take life and victory for granted. And be genuinely surprised if the players have a chance in hell to defeat the dragon.

The only way I can even see the dragon having any respect for the players' power is if there's: A) a baby dragon in the vicinity or B) the players' are epic heroes.

DigoDragon
2014-02-06, 09:50 AM
One of my most successful dragons was Snowfire the White. He was an old dragon that lived in the northern territories and had been there longer than any of the local towns. The PCs first encountered him when they were 3rd level. Snowfire was attacking towns and the PCs found out why: The mayor of one town had stolen part of his treasure preemtively. The PCs took the mayor down and recovered the stolen loot. When the treasure was left in a field for Snowfire to reclaim, the attacks on the countryside stopped. The PCs never interacted with the dragon directly however.

This is because I played Snowfire more like a natural disaster than a creature. If he felt like attacking a town, then you better put on your good pair or running boots that morning. Much like how Florida just deals with Hurricanes or California lives with Earthquakes, there was no mortal force that could just kill Snowfire so the northern territories simply lived with it. They could go months without ever hearing of the white dragon, and if he did attack, he'd only take what he wanted and not raze the entire town (after all, towns herd delicious animals to eat and have shiny treasure to take if you keep them around).

Thus, Snowfire was as much of the the north as were blizzards, mountains and the rivers.

I still ran lots of adventurers around Snowfire. Evil wizards would take the dead frozen bodies left in Snowfire's wake and create undead experiments with them. A tribe of hobgoblins had to leave their stpo because Snowfire attacked them, so the hobgoblins encroach on a small village to take it over. A band of thieves attack local caravans and try to make it look like the dragon attacked instead. One of Snowfire long abandoned lairs still holds a dangerous magic item he forgot and this there's a race to recover it first.

Stuff like that.

Mrc.
2014-02-06, 10:04 AM
Dragons are always going to be portrayed differently by different people, if only because of the huge amount of variety in dragons as shown in literature. There is something about a dragon descending upon the party, shadow hugging it like a cloak whilst fire dances in its throat as they nap unaware that screams 'lethality'.

As a DM who plays fast and loose with CR and exp, I often find that the parties I play with have the fear element you would expect from people who's job is to fight to the death with horrifying creatures on a daily basis. But few things are as terrifying as a dragon with murder on its mind.

Having said that, some of the best games I've played in had dragons as little more than dumb brutes; very effective brutes, yes, but brutes nonetheless. I fondly remember a ranger I once played who grew up in a fishing town, and to him dragons were no more terrifying than orcs. He had heard tales of drakes that had slain entire towns, but having never seen one he just assumed it was another creature like a manticore or similar. The biggest danger he ever perceived was a kraken. For sea-faring folk, something that lurks unseen and can, and will, shadow you for days before killing all aboard within a few minutes was far more fearsome than what they saw as a crocodile with wings. Indeed, this characters backstory had him witness such an annihilation and be so traumatised he journeyed to slay the beast. Shame the DM did nothing with it.....

TL;DR
Dragons are always going to be different. What matters is making them memorable.

BootStrapTommy
2014-02-06, 11:27 AM
In my campaigns, dragons are exclusively obnoxious high level epic montrosities.

Rhynn
2014-02-06, 11:36 AM
dragon are exclusively obnoxious high level epic montrosities

"im in ur mountain hoardin ur lewt

lol u mad bro?"

BootStrapTommy
2014-02-06, 11:57 AM
"im in ur mountain hoardin ur lewt

lol u mad bro?" No, not in the mountian. They ARE the mountain.

Rhynn
2014-02-06, 12:08 PM
No, not in the mountian. They ARE the mountain.

I mentioned this earlier, but that's canon for True Dragons in Glorantha (of RuneQuest and HeroQuest) and apparently for dragons in general in the world of Artesia (although there they may be less physically a mountain and more metaphysically tied to it).

Incidentally, in Artesia: AKW, there's a Mystery called "Who Slays a Dragon, Becomes a Dragon." Someone Illuminated into the Mystery will gain power from slaying a dragon (and, apparently, a Giant; creatures of comparable power). The Empire was once ruled by Dragon Kings, heroes who knew and shared the Mystery and slew dragons, gaining great power. But the Mystery may be rather deeper than that, because a dragonslayer of a much earlier period, Achre, gave birth to twins, apparently begotten by the dragon she slew. (The bloodlines derived from Achre are mechanically based on the Dragon bloodline...)

Raimun
2014-02-06, 12:17 PM
If people of myth, legend and fantasy stories are able kill dragons with their swords, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to do it, if I'm playing a level 10+ warrior.

Remember, by some estimates most (mortal) legendary heroes would have been around level 5, give or take a couple of levels.

I consider any plan to kill a dragon, that does not include swords, uncool and doomed to fail. :smallcool:

Rhynn
2014-02-06, 12:21 PM
I consider any plan to kill a dragon, that does not include swords, uncool and doomed to fail. :smallcool:

The best ones involve hiding in pits or pools.

BootStrapTommy
2014-02-06, 12:22 PM
I mentioned this earlier, but that's canon for True Dragons in Glorantha (of RuneQuest and HeroQuest) and apparently for dragons in general in the world of Artesia (although there they may be less physically a mountain and more metaphysically tied to it).

Incidentally, in Artesia: AKW, there's a Mystery called "Who Slays a Dragon, Becomes a Dragon." Someone Illuminated into the Mystery will gain power from slaying a dragon (and, apparently, a Giant; creatures of comparable power). The Empire was once ruled by Dragon Kings, heroes who knew and shared the Mystery and slew dragons, gaining great power. But the Mystery may be rather deeper than that, because a dragonslayer of a much earlier period, Achre, gave birth to twins, apparently begotten by the dragon she slew. (The bloodlines derived from Achre are mechanically based on the Dragon bloodline...)
Hahaha... My lore boils down more to "There are only 7 dragons, they're god-like, and you better be a very well prepared badass if you want to take them on."

zephyrkinetic
2014-02-06, 12:27 PM
As I recently proved in another thread, I just play them very ineptly. :smallbiggrin: I'm going to have to put some serious rethink into dragon encounters at low-level. Maybe something with draconic tendencies or influence, but not the real thing.

BootStrapTommy
2014-02-06, 12:37 PM
As I recently proved in another thread, I just play them very ineptly. :smallbiggrin: I'm going to have to put some serious rethink into dragon encounters at low-level. Maybe something with draconic tendencies or influence, but not the real thing.
I've found the easiest way to make low-level encounters hard (regardless of whether it's a dragon or not) is to play the baddies as you would if you were playing them as characters with the goal of killing the party. Think strategically. Don't just be like "They walk up to A and melee attack. *rolls* They miss."

zephyrkinetic
2014-02-06, 12:56 PM
I've found the easiest way to make low-level encounters hard (regardless of whether it's a dragon or not) is to play the baddies as you would if you were playing them as characters with the goal of killing the party. Think strategically. Don't just be like "They walk up to A and melee attack. *rolls* They miss."

I play them according to their character traits. A surprising amount of effort is spent making sure I don't do things that would be outside the BBEG's normal thought processes. I tend to have my players encounter Painfully Stupid dragons, who are pretty bad at being dragons. I tend to make chromatics even stupider and more beastial/feral than they already are, too. As I said, though, this is going to change.

BootStrapTommy
2014-02-06, 01:02 PM
I play them according to their character traits. A surprising amount of effort is spent making sure I don't do things that would be outside the BBEG's normal thought processes. I tend to have my players encounter Painfully Stupid dragons, who are pretty bad at being dragons. I tend to make chromatics even stupider and more beastial/feral than they already are, too. As I said, though, this is going to change. Most dragons are stated to be of average or higher intellect, which is the problem with this. Even wyrmlings are as smart if not smarter than your average savy Joe. Dragons are supposed to be sly and cunning, never easily outsmarted.

zephyrkinetic
2014-02-06, 01:04 PM
Most dragons are stated to be of average or higher intellect, which is the problem with this. Even wyrmlings are as smart if not smarter than your average savy Joe. Dragons are supposed to be sly and cunning, never easily outsmarted.

Eh, maybe I got confused by some house-rule long ago. I don't doubt that you're correct; as I said, I'm notoriously bad at Dragon.

SiuiS
2014-02-06, 02:01 PM
As a DM who plays fast and loose with CR and exp, I often find that the parties I play with have the fear element you would expect from people who's job is to fight to the death with horrifying creatures on a daily basis. But few things are as terrifying as a dragon with murder on its mind.


That's my problem!

Maybe it's the same pigheadedness that leads to the tippy verse notion that any high level wizard is going to be the most paranoid, effective, hair trigger bastard around just to justify being high level. So I guess it's the same ferocity that provoked my Worst DMs ever thread response; as an adventurer I don't fear dragons because I can match their ferocity claw for claw, tooth for tooth, scale for scale.

This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The coward. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward. Like, surrenders or flees after one hit no matter how wounded he is because pain hurts. Always fails against enemy intimidation. Is a god fanged accountant, you psychopath, why would I ever stab someone in their sleep? That's bad business!

It saddens me that this normal human reaction is novel at most tables.

Coidzor
2014-02-06, 02:05 PM
Or starting characters don't take on near-epic-level threats.[/COLOR].

Given the premise: "I want characters to fight dragons," that wouldn't really be an option. It'd just be a rejection of the premise by my reading of the OP. But, yes, accepting that low-level characters aren't supposed to be fighting dragons if you also want them to be schlubs is one way of coming to terms with it, I suppose.

Mrc.
2014-02-06, 02:16 PM
That's my problem!

Maybe it's the same pigheadedness that leads to the tippy verse notion that any high level wizard is going to be the most paranoid, effective, hair trigger bastard around just to justify being high level. So I guess it's the same ferocity that provoked my Worst DMs ever thread response; as an adventurer I don't fear dragons because I can match their ferocity claw for claw, tooth for tooth, scale for scale.

This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The coward. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward. Like, surrenders or flees after one hit no matter how wounded he is because pain hurts. Always fails against enemy intimidation. Is a god fanged accountant, you psychopath, why would I ever stab someone in their sleep? That's bad business!

It saddens me that this normal human reaction is novel at most tables.

The problem is, hit points aren't easy to translate into real life. I don't know my ability scores. I don't know my BAB. I don't know how many hits I can take. In D&D any character can take damage and quantify how bad that damage is. They can take many minutes planning their next move and can see how effective that was by damage dealt. And should they get knocked about, with the right healing spell they're full health again.

If I got mugged and broke my arm or something, there's no spell to heal me. I can't determine how many more hits I can take before I'm out cold. I don't know how likely the next punch is to connect or how likely I am to intercept and apply a lock/break at elbow/throw.

Real life can't compare to D&D and no matter how hard you try, a little bit of you will always metagame.

Coidzor
2014-02-06, 02:25 PM
Fun fact: most of the dragons in the art of the original Dragonlance modules look to be about this scale. A 10-15' armored fire-breathing lizard is still completely freaking terrifying!

I dunno, when you've faced down demons, even larger giants, and undead horrors, a purely physical threat that's only about as big as a rhino shouldn't be completely freaking terrifying. That kind of pants-wetting terror is more reserved for things like Meenlocks which one can't just stick a sword into in a straight forward manner.


How is being armed going to save you from getting kicked in the head, exactly? :smallwink:

Are you familiar with spears and their ability to deter or break cavalry charges? :smallcool:


No, not in the mountian. They ARE the mountain.

So you're saying that I'm going into the bowels of a dragon in order to clear out a kobold infestation keeping us from mining the dragon's jewels? :smallamused:


Oh. Uh, wow. :smalleek:

There's a reason Gandalf and Company didn't want Smaug joining the War of the Ring, and not just because him joining may have lead to the lesser wyrms that were still around joining in too.


It saddens me that this normal human reaction is novel at most tables.

You mean going completely against the expectations of the game shouldn't be novel? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

BootStrapTommy
2014-02-06, 02:30 PM
So you're saying that I'm going into the bowels of a dragon in order to clear out a kobold infestation keeping us from mining the dragon's jewels? :smallamused: Yes, just don't expect to make it back out again in any form other than a turd.

BrokenChord
2014-02-06, 02:38 PM
The problem is, hit points aren't easy to translate into real life. I don't know my ability scores. I don't know my BAB. I don't know how many hits I can take. In D&D any character can take damage and quantify how bad that damage is. They can take many minutes planning their next move and can see how effective that was by damage dealt. And should they get knocked about, with the right healing spell they're full health again.

If I got mugged and broke my arm or something, there's no spell to heal me. I can't determine how many more hits I can take before I'm out cold. I don't know how likely the next punch is to connect or how likely I am to intercept and apply a lock/break at elbow/throw.

Real life can't compare to D&D and no matter how hard you try, a little bit of you will always metagame.

A trained martial artist, IRL, can in fact judge pretty well how he compares to his opponent offensively and defensively, so assuming the majority of non-Commoners with a bit of combat training HP and AC are actually things characters could have a mental sort-pf-knowledge of, though they wouldn't bethinking numerically. As for the spells... It might lessen your fear of death somewhat, but even if you knew you could be healed, you probably wouldn't have the courage or pain tolerance to run headlong into the swords of people who want you dead, would you?

Rhynn
2014-02-06, 02:56 PM
I dunno, when you've faced down demons, even larger giants, and undead horrors, a purely physical threat that's only about as big as a rhino shouldn't be completely freaking terrifying.

That's all very specific assumptions, though.

FWIW, I think undead are always scarier than anything else, but that's because they get energy drain, and it's not easy to tell wights apart from zombies all the time, nevermind ghouls... :smallamused:


There's a reason Gandalf and Company didn't want Smaug joining the War of the Ring, and not just because him joining may have lead to the lesser wyrms that were still around joining in too.

I've never thought about that angle before!

Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command, and he inherited most of the allegiances Morgoth held. Even the Balrog of Moria, it seems (not to mention the evil will of the mountain Caradhras; if that wasn't the Balrog as well), was bent to his purpose, and the Balrogs are at least of comparable power to many dragons. There were numerous dragons (dozens? Who knows!) in the Grey Mountains and the Withered Heath. So why did no dragons appear to serve Sauron during the War?

It really might be that the defeat of Smaug was what kept the dragons from joining in, and that may have been instrumental in the success of the Company and the ability of Gondor to hold out long enough and Elessar to triumph. Otherwise, even if the Ring-bearer had succeeded, it might have been too late to save Gondor and the legacy of Elendil...

DigoDragon
2014-02-06, 03:21 PM
It saddens me that this normal human reaction is novel at most tables.

As a DM, I've been pretty successful at instilling at least a little fear into most players when encountering a dragon. Part of the success is smashing the PCs metagaming expections when they try to fight one. :smallbiggrin: I like to modify a dragon's stats and abilities so that it's not exactly as they expect.

For example, I caught many players off guard when they were ambushed by a purple dragon. So what is a purple dragon? Chromatic? Is it related to the gem dragons? Help?

It was a blue dragon who covered himself in the blood of the hill giants he slays, and his breath weapon had a feat to change the shape from a line to a cone (which threw off some PCs who thought it was maybe a red dragon with a different damage element).



So you're saying that I'm going into the bowels of a dragon in order to clear out a kobold infestation keeping us from mining the dragon's jewels? :smallamused:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/258/1/4/good_night_everybody_by_orangebluecream-d2ysdp9.jpg

Mrc.
2014-02-06, 04:14 PM
A trained martial artist, IRL, can in fact judge pretty well how he compares to his opponent offensively and defensively, so assuming the majority of non-Commoners with a bit of combat training HP and AC are actually things characters could have a mental sort-pf-knowledge of, though they wouldn't bethinking numerically. As for the spells... It might lessen your fear of death somewhat, but even if you knew you could be healed, you probably wouldn't have the courage or pain tolerance to run headlong into the swords of people who want you dead, would you?

I get what you're saying, given that I do Mantis Kung Fu and have for many years, but all of that training, with a few exceptions assumes an even playing field. If someone chose to stab me in the back there's not much I could do.

As for the pain threshold, including things like that into D&D would just over-complicate an already crowded system. And all this is for human vs human. The OP is regarding a dragon. I know my limits, but against something that terrifying, I'd rather cut my losses and run. Right up until it starts flying......

The point is, D&D is a system where heroes fight monsters on a daily basis. Many rules are only included for complete-ness (I don't think I've ever used encumbrance!) and it isn't the sort of game where you are realistically in danger from lower level monsters beyond a certain point.

Take 3.5, because most people play that. Imagine a 15th level character that is sleeping in a tent with no form of protection (it does strain credulity a bit but bear with me). If a 1st level kobold snuck up on them and knifed them in the throat THEY WOULD DIE. Except they wouldn't, because they have quite a lot of health. Granted a coup de gras could kill them with a scythe if enough damage is done, but they are still likely walking away from MOST OF THEIR NECK MISSING.

This is an example of where real life falls apart when roleplaying rules are applied. If that character happened to be a fighter or barbarian, they would probably be able to survive several minutes of frantic neck-chopping, especially if the critical failure rules are not being used. Now imagine them at level 20. Our friendly neighbourhood scythe-wielding kobold should be able to kill them even so. Maybe a wizard who rolled for hitpoints and tanked could die to a poor roll, but most characters would die from actual damage dealt before they died from their head falling off.

There may be some amongst you who claim that any character that has gotten to 20th level and allows a kobold to kill them deserves everything they get, but my point is that a kobold should be able to kill an entire adventuring party overnight. But going by the rules, he's probably still sawing away at the barbarians neck when the sun rises.

TL;DR
D&D doesn't translate well into real life. Especially not with kobolds.

mikeejimbo
2014-02-06, 04:28 PM
How do I dragon? Very carefully.

Alternatively, I don't always dragon, but when I do...

In my current setting, dragons are huge, ancient, and highly intelligent, but mostly content to just collect their horde through usually legitimate means. They police
themselves internally a bit too.

Rosstin
2014-02-06, 05:47 PM
1. Not all dragons are monsters. You have plenty of powerful NPCs - the King, the Guildmaster, the Wizard Who Lives On The Hill - why not the Dragon? Maybe he's tyrannical, maybe he's benevolent, maybe he's a leader of men or a religious figure, maybe he dwells among mortals in disguise, maybe he lives openly. You can make him a non-combat encounter, at which point you don't have to worry about his stats (unless your players are suicidal).

2. Not all dragons are present. A dragon can have a presence in a campaign without being present. You can have the stories of Tabazak, an ancient Gold Dragon who lived centuries ago, whose image is emblazoned across sacred ruins and modern temples, whose legacy gave rise to the current monarchy. You can have legends speak of Gabsican, a Silver Dragon who holds the secret to some great magical spell, who lives in hiding in the Mountains of the Mist, and whom countless heroes have sought, but none have found. A dragon can have an impact on the campaign, even if you never meet him face to face.

3. Not all dragons are dragons. As suggested above, the PCs may encounter a dragon disguised as another creature. Don't expect this dragon-in-disguise to use the full array of its draconic powers.

4. Not all dragons take you seriously. If the PCs do fight a dragon, it may toy with them rather than brutalize them. It may playfully bat them around a bit, before tiring of them and departing. Note that, if the PCs try to keep it around, its playfulness may turn into annoyance.

These are awesome points. 1) ties into some thoughts I had about "inappropriate encounters" in another thread. Encounters which the low-level PCs (almost) can't possibly win in a straight-up fight.

The dragon is a fascinating enemy in that light. You either have to reason and bargain with it, or find some way to create an unfair situation where you can destroy it. Most PCs understand OOC that dragon=unbeatable and are able to RP their characters as being suitably cautious, whereas someone implied to be a highly-powerful wizard just looks like shank-bait to them.

Not saying they won't still rush at it and hack at it with a greatsword, but at least they won't be shocked when it destroys them.

SiuiS
2014-02-06, 06:02 PM
The problem is, hit points aren't easy to translate into real life. I don't know my ability scores. I don't know my BAB. I don't know how many hits I can take. In D&D any character can take damage and quantify how bad that damage is. They can take many minutes planning their next move and can see how effective that was by damage dealt. And should they get knocked about, with the right healing spell they're full health again.

If I got mugged and broke my arm or something, there's no spell to heal me. I can't determine how many more hits I can take before I'm out cold. I don't know how likely the next punch is to connect or how likely I am to intercept and apply a lock/break at elbow/throw.

Real life can't compare to D&D and no matter how hard you try, a little bit of you will always metagame.

You're thinking realism means like the real world. Realism in D&D talks is always about verisimilitude.

And let's look at supposed numbers (actual numbers play out differently); 99% of the population has no chance, no training, no gear, don't grow up with magic, don't have a working understanding of magic, etc. 100% of all adventurers do have these things. Players ever only play adventurers.

100% of all players hold expectations for the entire world that only work for approximately .0000001% of the world, and by work I mean "work". And it's taking that trained adventurer psychology for granted as a normal outlook that skews these things. Players should, on occasion, review this. Not because it makes dragons scary but it puts it into perspective, that your fighter isn't just an everyday Schmoe, she's literally got the tenacity of a dragon.


As a DM, I've been pretty successful at instilling at least a little fear into most players when encountering a dragon. Part of the success is smashing the PCs metagaming expections when they try to fight one. :smallbiggrin: I like to modify a dragon's stats and abilities so that it's not exactly as they expect.

For example, I caught many players off guard when they were ambushed by a purple dragon. So what is a purple dragon? Chromatic? Is it related to the gem dragons? Help?

It was a blue dragon who covered himself in the blood of the hill giants he slays, and his breath weapon had a feat to change the shape from a line to a cone (which threw off some PCs who thought it was maybe a red dragon with a different damage element).

Metagame? Nah, I go as far as "it's only a hundred feet off the ground when it strafes! Oric, raise your shield! I'm going for The Mario!"

Rhynn
2014-02-06, 06:14 PM
FWIW, players are really quick to run away from dangerous things in the right kind of game. In old-school D&D, the only way to deal with encountering any kind of undead with energy drain (and any kind of undead at all, just to be sure) is to try to turn them, then run like crazy.

oudeis
2014-02-06, 06:38 PM
A trained martial artist, IRL, can in fact judge pretty well how he compares to his opponent offensively and defensivelyNo, he can't. Not until the fight has already started, or more likely finished. The pace and nature of a tournament or ring fight might lend itself to that kind of detached analysis. An actual street fight without rules, without referees, and without anyone to stop or even witness it if it proceeds to a terrible conclusion does not.


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The coward. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward. Like, surrenders or flees after one hit no matter how wounded he is because pain hurts. Always fails against enemy intimidation.Oh, wow. You're seriously going to use this as your example? And this board, which goes into uncontrolled spasms of righteous frenzy at the slights and indignities heaped on the Orcish people, is going to let this go unchallenged? Let's try some alternate wordings for an experiment:


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The fairy. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The woman. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The guy me and my friends/the jocks/the thugs used to beat up at my high school. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.*


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The loser who tried to pledge my fraternity last year. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The gamer. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; billy. The IT guy. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.


This reminds me of one of the characters I've just never had time to play; Jerry Holkins. The cartoonist. Short, fat, balding. Kinda sweaty. A coward.



Stereotype much?


* edit: sorry, missed one.

Jay R
2014-02-06, 06:43 PM
Given the premise: "I want characters to fight dragons," that wouldn't really be an option. It'd just be a rejection of the premise by my reading of the OP. But, yes, accepting that low-level characters aren't supposed to be fighting dragons if you also want them to be schlubs is one way of coming to terms with it, I suppose.

He didn't say "I want characters to fight dragons." He said, "So what are your thoughts about giving dragons a presence in non-high level campaigns?"

"Never laugh at live dragons," according to one non-high-level character who had to deal with that situation. He was later quoted as saying, "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

So here are my thoughts about giving dragons a presence in non-high level campaigns:

1. They can have a presence as a problem to be avoided, rather than simply an enemy to defeat.
2. Never laugh at live dragons.
3. Do not leave a live dragon out of your reckoning, if you live near him.
4. Run.

TuggyNE
2014-02-06, 08:32 PM
Oh, wow. You're seriously going to use this as your example? And this board, which goes into uncontrolled spasms of righteous frenzy at the slights and indignities heaped on the Orcish people, is going to let this go unchallenged? Let's try some alternate wordings for an experiment:

Stereotype much?

What oppressed minority group, precisely, was this post allegedly stereotyping? As far as I can tell, it was stereotyping short fat bald sweaty cowards as lacking in height, chubby, hairless, perspiring, and fearful. That's … pretty much it, and it seems rather tautological, if anything. If you say "all stupid people are stupid, and also lacking in intelligence", that's not a very terrifying insult.

(Also, your quoting hygiene is lacking; the post you were quoting is one by SuiS, not BrokenChord.)

BrokenChord
2014-02-06, 09:03 PM
First, as mentioned, please don't look like you're quoting me when you aren't, it's in good taste to make a conscious effort to avoid that.

And yeah, a martial artist generally can't compare himself to his opponent before they start to fight, just like if you aren't metagaming your character won't know anything about his ability to strike or avoid being struck by that dragon until some dice have already been rolled, and even then it's something of a guessing game. The "human opponents" rule doesn't hold as much water when you've likely encountered and been trained to deal with intelligent nonhumanoids by the time you reach even your first character level, especially in a high-magic world. Aside from that, your post doesn't really argue against me as much as alongside me.

oudeis
2014-02-06, 09:56 PM
@BrokenChord AH- trimmed out one too many quote tags. Fixing.


What oppressed minority group, precisely, was this post allegedly stereotyping?Oh, is that what stereotyping entails? Is that all it entails?

ChaoticDitz
2014-02-06, 10:11 PM
@BrokenChord AH- trimmed out one too many quote tags. Fixing.

Oh, is that what stereotyping entails? Is that all it entails?

Actually, yeah, that is what stereotyping entails, though this forum isn't really the place to debate such a thing. There's a difference between saying "all IT guys are fat cowards" and pointing at a specific person and saying "based on personal experience with this person (I don't think a Billy is a distinct group to be slurring against) I have noticed and concluded that he is unhealthily overweight, short, and an utter coward." That isn't stereotyping, that's characterization.

Rosstin
2014-02-06, 10:35 PM
One of my most successful dragons was Snowfire the White. He was an old dragon that lived in the northern territories and had been there longer than any of the local towns. The PCs first encountered him when they were 3rd level. Snowfire was attacking towns and the PCs found out why: The mayor of one town had stolen part of his treasure preemtively. The PCs took the mayor down and recovered the stolen loot. When the treasure was left in a field for Snowfire to reclaim, the attacks on the countryside stopped. The PCs never interacted with the dragon directly however.

This is because I played Snowfire more like a natural disaster than a creature. If he felt like attacking a town, then you better put on your good pair or running boots that morning. Much like how Florida just deals with Hurricanes or California lives with Earthquakes, there was no mortal force that could just kill Snowfire so the northern territories simply lived with it. They could go months without ever hearing of the white dragon, and if he did attack, he'd only take what he wanted and not raze the entire town (after all, towns herd delicious animals to eat and have shiny treasure to take if you keep them around).

Thus, Snowfire was as much of the the north as were blizzards, mountains and the rivers.

I still ran lots of adventurers around Snowfire. Evil wizards would take the dead frozen bodies left in Snowfire's wake and create undead experiments with them. A tribe of hobgoblins had to leave their stpo because Snowfire attacked them, so the hobgoblins encroach on a small village to take it over. A band of thieves attack local caravans and try to make it look like the dragon attacked instead. One of Snowfire long abandoned lairs still holds a dangerous magic item he forgot and this there's a race to recover it first.

Stuff like that.

Cool story, I dig it.

TuggyNE
2014-02-06, 11:06 PM
Oh, is that what stereotyping entails? Is that all it entails?

Barring something I have somehow forgotten, yes, I think so. Stereotyping is the assumption that all members of some defined group share one or more common traits beyond the bare minimum that defines that group — usually negative ones, but not always.

To use a neutral example, inaccurate stereotyping would be the belief that all mammals give birth to live young. This is not the case, but it doesn't matter unless you consider it a positive or negative trait. ("Mammals are better, we don't lay those stupid eggs!")

However, saying that all cowards tend to break and run in times of danger, or that all mammals have mammary glands, or similar restatements of the most basic definition, is not stereotyping: it is merely use of a defined term in cases where it's directly applicable. Getting upset about that is just silly.

Similarly, if someone does in fact tend to give in to their fears, it's not stereotyping to call them a coward, although it might be unkind in its truth. And, for the same reason, if you say "I want to play someone defined by W X Y and Z negative traits", that's not stereotyping: if they are, in fact, properly characterized by those traits, then that's all there is to it, and if they aren't, well then you wouldn't want to play them in the first place.

TL/DR: The justified use of pejoratives is not stereotyping. Only overgeneralized/baseless usage is.

Thrudd
2014-02-06, 11:39 PM
I don't always dragon, but when I do, someone's going to die.

Stay cautious, my friends.

-The Most Interesting DM in the World -

ChaoticDitz
2014-02-07, 12:05 AM
I don't always dragon, but when I do, someone's going to die.

Stay cautious, my friends.

-The Most Interesting DM in the World -

Quick, affirm we of incompatible race/gender to mate, I'm laughing so hard I tripped and fell in love.

Pocket lint
2014-02-07, 12:13 AM
I don't always dragon, but when I do, someone's going to die.

Stay cautious, my friends.

-The Most Interesting DM in the World -

I'm hearing that read in the voice of El Macho for some reason...:smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2014-02-07, 01:30 AM
No, he can't. Not until the fight has already started, or more likely finished. The pace and nature of a tournament or ring fight might lend itself to that kind of detached analysis. An actual street fight without rules, without referees, and without anyone to stop or even witness it if it proceeds to a terrible conclusion does not.

Well, that's debatable, but not testable. I suppose it's best to examine the thoughts behind the statements and then just move forward.


Oh, wow. You're seriously going to use this as your example?

Yup! Because those are the traits of the character. Just like I would say "elf, warrior, good armor" if I were talking about an elf warrior with good armor. But I'm specifically talking about a character defined by those traits, all of which tend to be traits avoided by role players since every character is immaculate, in good health, six foot even, anywhere from 125 to 225 pounds depending on how accurate or in accurate the player's understanding of mass is, with degrees in philosophy and engineering. So playing someone who sticks out like a sore thumb would be interesting.

As for your examples;
Short, fat, balding, fairy: they're called gnomes. I've played those too.
Short, fat, sweaty, female: why can't women be balding? It's an actual thing they worry about and if you're going to nitpick you shouldn't erase a woman's problems like they don't have them. Women are people and suffer just as much as any other people.
Last time I played those traits she was an opera singer.

Everything else? Yeah, you're stereotyping much. See, people use shorthand for other characters as a communication aid. Despite being a bard, a paladin, a professor, an inventor, with a harried and ragged history spanning thousands of years, Valistar is known as the wizard. The warlock/fighter with adamant armor, proclivity for single mindedness, a love of the arts and a Tragic Past is just known as the tresorwin. And when talking about what concept I wanna play today, when I bring up billy, and am asked to describe billy, the thing that sticks with my associates is coward. So they say "oh, the coward?"

I have to wonder, if I had cut the last sentence so as not to say coward twice, if I had capitalized coward, if I had called him the fool instead, would you be taking arbitrary (cis hetero white male) "oppressed groups" and trying to shoehorn them into a sentence to make me feel bad? Short, balding, sweaty, a coward all describe this exact character. Those traits do not describe jocks, whatever those are; or gamers; or IT workers, or fraternity pledges, so you're not even really making a point. You're just... Pointing and screaming.

Does that bother you? You personally? If so, let's talk about it. But you got one paragraph in, didn't check to make sure it was a miscomunique, and went immediately to hyperbolic chastisement. That's pretty silly.




He didn't say "I want characters to fight dragons." He said, "So what are your thoughts about giving dragons a presence in non-high level campaigns?"

Huh. I misread that then.


First, as mentioned, please don't look like you're quoting me when you aren't, it's in good taste to make a conscious effort to avoid that.

It's been happening a lot. I got one that didn't make sense; I only quoted one person. It still put the wrong name (and citation post!) there.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-02-07, 02:09 AM
Take 3.5, because most people play that. Imagine a 15th level character that is sleeping in a tent with no form of protection (it does strain credulity a bit but bear with me). If a 1st level kobold snuck up on them and knifed them in the throat THEY WOULD DIE. Except they wouldn't, because they have quite a lot of health. Granted a coup de gras could kill them with a scythe if enough damage is done, but they are still likely walking away from MOST OF THEIR NECK MISSING.

This is an example of where real life falls apart when roleplaying rules are applied.

Only because you're, for some inexplicable reason, choosing not to define slitting the character's throat as a coup de gras. That's exactly what that is, ya know. There's a chance that the lvl 15 will survive that. It's not even close to guaranteed unless he's got magical fortification or is otherwise immune to crits which -usually- entails not having a proper throat to slit. Let's swap that dagger with a light crossbow fired into the character's eye at point blank range while he sleeps, that being a more appropriate weapon to a kobold. A d8 doubled produces a fort save vs death ranging from dc 12, which any 1st level character has a decent chance of surviving, and dc 26. Even if its your good save and you're still wearing your gear that's pretty close to even odds. If it's not your good save or you don't sleep in your gear, you're almost certainly dead and that's right up to level 20.

Part of being a high-level character is having uncanny luck or extraordinary instincts. Maybe you toss in your sleep at just the right moment to keep the knife from digging deep. Maybe you "sense" the hostility of your foe and awaken in the instant just before the blow is delivered and twitch partially out of the way of that crossbow's bolt. In any case, survival isn't guaranteed if you're careless enough to let some nobody sneak into your sleeping area and put a weapon to you, no matter what your level, but neither is death if you're not talking about a trained killer.

Slitting a throat is harder than you probably think.


I don't always dragon, but when I do, someone's going to die.

Stay cautious, my friends.

-The Most Interesting DM in the World -

I love that guy. I hope Dos Equis keeps him doing their commercials until they go under or he keels over dead.




On topic:

I'm quite happy with D&D 3.X's dragons. Grok this; an hour after it's hatched the weakest of the true dragons, the white, is capable of handily shredding any basic humanoid that's not a trained warrior. Most of the rest of them can do the same to virtually the entire humanoid population except for the less than 3% that are comprised of PC class characters of level 3 or higher.

Seriously, the first two hours of a blue dragon's life can go, "Was born, stretched and dried out a bit, flew out into the desert, ate a caravan guard that was gathering water alone at the oasis, flew home, and took a nap. Slow day."

Totally badass.


Others have already said pretty much everything else there is to say on the matter after that. If you want dragons such as you've described to have a presence, simply recall that they are wealthy, highly intelligent, and have immense personal power. They're no different from any powerful cleric or wizard or whatever your game's equivalent is. They can employ minions, let their reputation cow the populace within their territory, and, if it becomes necessary, personally crush anything that proves overly threatening to its interests. Frankly, it's only laziness on their own part that keeps dragons such as you've described from ruling the world or at least a significant part of it.

SiuiS
2014-02-07, 05:00 AM
Slitting a throat is harder than you probably think.


Yeah. I've had military trainin enthusiasts insist that their rogue puts the knife it not the throat leaving a vertical cut in the windpipe. Because that's the hardest to fix, it's how the navy SEALs do it, it's the most appropriately lethal... I just blinked and looked at their neck beneath the masseuse, just anterior to the insertion of the sternoclydomastoid where both the carotid artery and jugular vein were. I nodded. I moved on.

I also met someone who insisted a hangman's knot goes on the left side because that's where a tiny bone in your neck is that isn't on the other side, and breaking that hangman's bone is what kills you. Independent research is dead, I suppose: otherwise intelligent and capable individuals still believe you catch a cold from being cold, that a day is twenty four hours long always, and that a Vorpal weapon that cuts off someone's head but doesn't do enough Hp damage to kill them leaves them alive. *shrug*

DigoDragon
2014-02-07, 08:51 AM
"it's only a hundred feet off the ground when it strafes! Oric, raise your shield! I'm going for The Mario!"

Going for The Mario? I must say, that's a new one to me.
May I have some context?



and that a Vorpal weapon that cuts off someone's head but doesn't do enough Hp damage to kill them leaves them alive.

Maybe if they were part hydra... though I wish I could say this is the first time I heard that theory.

I remember one poor dragon fight where the party fighter used a vorpal dagger to behead a great red in round two of the fight. That was pretty anti-climatic.

Yora
2014-02-07, 08:53 AM
Going for The Mario? I must say, that's a new one to me.
May I have some context?
I think it's about making a character so utterly bland, undefined, and generic that you can actually make him do any job.

SiuiS
2014-02-07, 09:36 AM
Going for The Mario? I must say, that's a new one to me.
May I have some context?


Have you ever played The Lost Vikings? You know the guy with the shield? You know how you can use that shield as a platform?

Everyone declares readied actions. Usually a charge works. Oric readies to bear a load and jump. The attacker readies a charge style attack. The backup (when doing the Super Mario) needs a greater land speed, and readies about the same thing.

Dragon dives. Attacker runs, leaps onto the shield. Oric jumps as high as he can, then Attacker jumps off Oric. Follow up can jump into oric's shield and then up, under Attacker, and give the attacker a second boost (or straight up throw the attacker at the enemy). When you do this with more than three units you're entering into Advent Children territory though.

The last time a DM thought a swooping dragon would keep me on my toes, I rode the dragon into a mountain face. Well, suplexed. Suplexed a dragon into a mountain face.



Maybe if they were part hydra... though I wish I could say this is the first time I heard that theory.

I remember one poor dragon fight where the party fighter used a vorpal dagger to behead a great red in round two of the fight. That was pretty anti-climatic.

It's someone's signature around here actually. "Man, your Vorpal sword cut off the orcs head but it doesn't say it does anything to his Hp. This game is so unrealistic."


I think it's about making a character so utterly bland, undefined, and generic that you can actually make him do any job.

Ouch. Well, good I know what you think of me :smallwink:

Deremir
2014-02-07, 08:09 PM
2. If I were to represent that fight in mechanical terms, I'd say that Bard scored a ridiculous attack with exploding dice (i.e. roll 6->roll another die) in a diepool game like Shadowrun or WoD (where one could theoretically one-shot a dragon, but it's not realistic).

hmm i would think that the death of smaug was more of a "three nat 20s in a row" thing, in case you don't know of this house rule it states that an attack that gets three consecutive 20s for to-hit is an instant kill cuz you beheaded it/stabbed its heart/cut it in half exc.

while looking at this i looked up the 3.5 entry of dragons, do they really not have DR?:smallconfused:

my personal point of view on dragons is that its a huge intelligent being that you need either a level 10 party or an army to take down, unless its a baby in a dragons lair, anything less and in my campaigns its not a dragon, its a drake, which for me is basically the messed up offspring of a dragon and an iguana.... wow that's a weird thought...

all this dragon talk is giving me an idea for a dragon based campaign..hmm...

Rhynn
2014-02-07, 09:59 PM
while looking at this i looked up the 3.5 entry of dragons, do they really not have DR?:smallconfused:

They really do. Where are you getting the idea they don't? All MM dragons get DR 5/magic as young adults, and +5 per 2 age categories you go up.

Worira
2014-02-08, 12:48 AM
They really do. Where are you getting the idea they don't? All MM dragons get DR 5/magic as young adults, and +5 per 2 age categories you go up.

I went looking for dragons' DR earlier, and even knowing in advance they had it, it took me a pretty long time to find it. I don't blame someone for missing it.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-08, 01:15 AM
hmm i would think that the death of smaug was more of a "three nat 20s in a row" thing, in case you don't know of this house rule it states that an attack that gets three consecutive 20s for to-hit is an instant kill cuz you beheaded it/stabbed its heart/cut it in half exc.


I thought about it, but I didn't feel like Middle Earth would have such a houserule.

Also, on reflection, foreknowledge of the missing scale was definitely a critical part of Bard's successful shot. Those dragons probably would have had some rule like "yeah, dragons get ridiculous DR, except for their bellies, which can be totally stabbed if you make a Knowledge check", but Smaug was such a high level boss-monster* that his weakpoint was practically nonexistent unless you already knew it (the explanation being all the precious metals serving as armor for his belly).

*(that old wyrm had a whole civilization worth of loot. He wasn't going down easy)

Mrc.
2014-02-08, 03:42 AM
Smaug's death was determined by the story. Even if you translate Middle Earth into D&D, and many people have tried, you can't account for things like this. Maybe Bard did get a critical hit with his black arrow, but instead of trying to justify this in-game, I prefer to look at all the other things Smaug did.

Just the knowledge that he was there kept one of the greatest nations of elves cowering in their forests. Even with him not appearing in many, many years, few nations would dare approach Erebor. He was arrogant enough that he was willing to let Bilbo steal some of his treasure, taunting him about this as he did so:
"Well thief? Did you enjoy the goblet you stole yesterday?" (don't have my copy of the book to hand, might have misquoted).

The whole purpose of Thorin's quest was not to kill Smaug but to get the Arkenstone and with it unite all the Dwarves to form an army to drive out or slay him. All this is without him actually doing anything. He's also intelligent enough to engage in a game of riddles with Bilbo, and can identify the taste of dwarf on the ponies he eats, despite not having eaten one in years.

After all that, I find his end to be rather anti-climatic, but of course the death of Smaug is not the conclusion of the book, the Battle of Five Armies is. I'm intrigued as to how they will do all this in the next film, but this probably isn't the place to discuss that.

Fable Wright
2014-02-08, 05:19 AM
Smaug's death was determined by the story. Even if you translate Middle Earth into D&D, and many people have tried, you can't account for things like this.

Sure you can. Bard took a Called Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots) to the Heart on Smaug and rolled enough damage for a Debilitating Blow. Probably through a a crit and/or precision damage.

Rhynn
2014-02-08, 06:52 AM
Bard rolled a 66 on the Very Large Creature Critical Hits Table with a slaying weapon.

Seriously, getting system-focused about that is dumb, and trying to use what's obviously the wrong system is dumber... :smallwink:

Kaww
2014-02-08, 06:55 AM
This is all 3.5 stuff... All I have to say is RHoD. When I DMed it and played dragons per instructions I felt like crying. I believe that if well played the first dragon with end of scenario minions could be an easy TPK for the PCs that are much more powerful at that point than at the time of the first encounter.

If you play him as instructed it's a trivial encounter. I don't think my players ever got to kill dragons anywhere else and I honestly can't remember killing a dragon with a character level below 23.

I prefer "Snowfire the White" approach where the dragon is a force of nature. I was a part of parties that helped dragons with simple matters, or did business with them. But, nobody thought of fighting Ruby before mid twenties and even then we decided against it.

I believe that nobody mentioned that dragons have access to epic feats from their first HD. Aside from choosing proper feats I also always roll the dragon's stats when there's the possibility of encounter. They never came up, but I have a file with various unique dragon builds...

DigoDragon
2014-02-08, 09:56 AM
*The Mario Explanation*

Heh, okay that IS really clever. :smallsmile:
I've seen Advent Children too, so I can imagine it now.



All MM dragons get DR 5/magic as young adults, and +5 per 2 age categories you go up.

Which is a really poor DR in my opinion when magic weapons get commonplace. I usually houserule better damage reduction, so that when the PCs are high enough level that they want to take one on, they're still sweating for their victory. :smallsmile:

Zombimode
2014-02-08, 10:17 AM
Which is a really poor DR in my opinion when magic weapons get commonplace. I usually houserule better damage reduction, so that when the PCs are high enough level that they want to take one on, they're still sweating for their victory. :smallsmile:

Dragons DR in 3.5 is more of a world-building element than part of it's CR. You could call it a "flavor-ability".

Also, they don't need the DR to be dangerous for the PC's.

Mrc.
2014-02-08, 12:11 PM
Sure you can. Bard took a Called Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots) to the Heart on Smaug and rolled enough damage for a Debilitating Blow. Probably through a a crit and/or precision damage.

Point conceded. But the general gist of my point remains: Smaug wasn't an encounter with the citizens of Laketown. Smaug was a BOOK.

Deremir
2014-02-08, 02:08 PM
I thought about it, but I didn't feel like Middle Earth would have such a houserule.

Also, on reflection, foreknowledge of the missing scale was definitely a critical part of Bard's successful shot. Those dragons probably would have had some rule like "yeah, dragons get ridiculous DR, except for their bellies, which can be totally stabbed if you make a Knowledge check", but Smaug was such a high level boss-monster* that his weakpoint was practically nonexistent unless you already knew it (the explanation being all the precious metals serving as armor for his belly).

i think you might be forgetting something, bard used a Black Arrow which i would totally classify as being adamantine, along with some ancestral template or some other, he had to use a black arrow because any other projectile just bounced off, even his underside.


Smaug's death was determined by the story. Even if you translate Middle Earth into D&D, and many people have tried, you can't account for things like this. Maybe Bard did get a critical hit with his black arrow, but instead of trying to justify this in-game, I prefer to look at all the other things Smaug did.

its still fun to translate it to D&D tho...:smalltongue:

SiuiS
2014-02-08, 03:28 PM
Heh, okay that IS really clever. :smallsmile:
I've seen Advent Children too, so I can imagine it now.

People are always all "mundanes can only move and attack or sometimes attack and then move" and I think of the boss fights from God Of War and I'm like "seriously?"



Which is a really poor DR in my opinion when magic weapons get commonplace. I usually houserule better damage reduction, so that when the PCs are high enough level that they want to take one on, they're still sweating for their victory. :smallsmile:

It's a benchmark. "You must be this tall to ride". Let's you have dragons in a world of 1-3rd level people be terrifying amalgams of death and [element], while still being an encounter in the fight and win sense for high level heroes.

jguy
2014-02-08, 03:57 PM
My group has had a grand total of 3 dragon fights in all of our career of playing, two with one DM, the last with me. The first one was a random encounter. We were all level 13 or around there and we fought a Mature adult Blue dragon. The fight lasted about 3 or 4 rounds which was big for us. We were made in such a way that our most common enemies, undead, died within the first or second round. Problem was after the first breath weapon the DM just made it into a claw-claw-bite-wings monster and I don't think it ever cast a spell. After we killed it we went in search of its layer. We found it along with a few baby blues that almost killed me because i took 5 breath weapons to the face (I played a wizard). Deeper in we found the dragons mate...inside a room barely big enough to fit it. I won initiative, cast Enervate and rolled a 4. After that the thing could barely hit us. It was sad.

Fast forward a year or so and we have new players. They have never gotten above level 6 in a game since they start at 1 and the game ends for one reason or another. I decided I wanted to show them a higher level game so I had 4 of them roll up level 11 guys and I told them they would be fighting a CR 15 dragon at the end of a long maze of encounters. No Rp, no plot, just kick the door down dungeon crawl. It was a harsh grind.

I almost killed 1 during the -easy- beginning fight with some Dire bears and 2 Adlets. 2nd fight went better for them, 3rd was a literal ice maze with Bogeyman and Gugs that ended up in the death of 1 guy. 4th fight was a party wipe. We rerolled guys now that the new people were used to high level fights and we went to the 5th fight. It was hard since it involved a lot of flight, cover, Crowed Control spells and AoEs but they made it through. The dragon fight afterwards was something else.

Now they knew it was a white dragon. They knew it's CR. What they didn't know was I rebuilt its spells and feats to be a bit better though honestly I didn't have to, two spells combined with fly-by attack made the fight really sad. Beginning of Fight dragon takes off from it's massive roost, breath weapons, and fly-bys out of the save into a perpetual blizzard. Party gets up to 1 of the three exits/entrances and waits. Dragon casts Displacement and Shield on itself as it flies around. Never got hit after that. Melee guys needed almost a natural 20 to scratch it then hope the 50% miss-chance didn't screw them over (it did). The dragons saves were high enough it made every save thrown its way. The party "survived" by plane shifting away before everyone died. My group doesn't make fun of White Dragons anymore.

Kazyan
2014-02-08, 04:05 PM
It saddens me that this normal human reaction is novel at most tables.

I concur. In, like, three out of five groups I'm in, people have angrily called each other cowards when they decide to, for example, make a tactical retreat from something tough-looking when they're wounded and low on resources. I'm starting to really hate the "coward" buzzword that all of them use.

ChaoticDitz
2014-02-08, 04:38 PM
I concur. In, like, three out of five groups I'm in, people have angrily called each other cowards when they decide to, for example, make a tactical retreat from something tough-looking when they're wounded and low on resources. I'm starting to really hate the "coward" buzzword that all of them use.

Hey, this isn't actually such a bad thing if it's done in-character. "Die, devil!" "Uh, Rogue here, and while everyone appreciates your enthusiasm, Mr. Party Paladin, we should probably run. This guy can literally one-shot everyone in the party except you." "Run if you wish! I shall fight Evil to my last breath!" "Kay, suit yourself." "Wait, I meant... I can't do this alone... Come back! Please! ... He's still leaving. Fine, then, run, coward! En guarde, villain!"

One boring stabfest later, your Paladin is either dead or fiated to safety. And rogues are all cowardly *******s, as usual. Really, it's listed in the class description.

Coidzor
2014-02-08, 05:39 PM
People are always all "mundanes can only move and attack or sometimes attack and then move" and I think of the boss fights from God Of War and I'm like "seriously?"

And what system would you use to model that?

SiuiS
2014-02-08, 06:09 PM
Dungeons and Dragons third edition, 3.5 partial update.

It's not that hard to use your jump and climb skills to jump and climb on stuff. All it takes is realizing that monsters are stuff.

Your monk has a total 240' movement when charging? Fighting a dragon and his swarm of harpies? Charge requires linear movement relative to the 2D battlemat, not to vertical distance. Run, jump off an ally, kick off of a routine of harpies, shove your fist into the dragon's nostril and yank downwards, spiraling to the ground where you make jump and tumble checks to minimize damage!
(Charge action, series of jump checks, tumble checks if the harpies catch wise, hope the dragon doesn't AoO you to doom and hit him with a trip mid air. Climb the dragon as you go).

jguy
2014-02-08, 09:09 PM
Problem is that vertical jumping is incredibly hard. For each 1 foot up you need a +4, so to jump 10 feet you need a to make a DC 40 jump check. It makes some sense in that 10 feet is a full story so that would be like jumping to the top of a house with no effort. (A monk has the Standing Jump ability meaning he doesn't have to move 20 feet first, otherwise the DC is doubled!)

So yes, you could do all of that...if either all those enemies are only 10 feet above you, or if you DM is very generous, having every enemy 10 feet apart and resetting the vertical jump distance for the DCs i.e. jump 10 on top of harpy with DC 40, jump off her to another harpy 10 feet away with a DC 40 ect ect.

SiuiS
2014-02-09, 12:04 AM
Problem is that vertical jumping is incredibly hard. For each 1 foot up you need a +4, so to jump 10 feet you need a to make a DC 40 jump check. It makes some sense in that 10 feet is a full story so that would be like jumping to the top of a house with no effort. (A monk has the Standing Jump ability meaning he doesn't have to move 20 feet first, otherwise the DC is doubled!)

So yes, you could do all of that...if either all those enemies are only 10 feet above you, or if you DM is very generous, having every enemy 10 feet apart and resetting the vertical jump distance for the DCs i.e. jump 10 on top of harpy with DC 40, jump off her to another harpy 10 feet away with a DC 40 ect ect.

Now add in climbing, being boosted on the initial jump, and vertical reach and you're golden.

Kaww
2014-02-09, 03:28 AM
... shove your fist into the dragon's nostril and yank downwards, spiraling to the ground where you make jump and tumble checks to minimize damage!
(Charge action, series of jump checks, tumble checks if the harpies catch wise, hope the dragon doesn't AoO you to doom and hit him with a trip mid air. Climb the dragon as you go).

You mean win a grapple with severe disadvantage because you have no leverage and your mass is about 64 times less than that of a huge dragon? You do understand that this is similar to grappling a house and "yanking" it the same distance?

SiuiS
2014-02-09, 03:53 AM
You mean win a grapple with severe disadvantage because you have no leverage and your mass is about 64 times less than that of a huge dragon? You do understand that this is similar to grappling a house and "yanking" it the same distance?

Nope! Can't grapple past a certain size difference. But you can trip a flying enemy. And once you're out of movement, you fall.

Grappling a house and yanking it is the sort of thing I don't find to be all that weird in a game where a man with a sharpened wedge can fell a stone tower with four strokes and a shout, the paranoid schizophrenic wiggles fingers and whispers and watches people from afar, and the country boys going out to hunt involves turning into a pack of lions instead of rifles.

I'm... Trusting your point wasn't about realism. Because if it was, it's not a good point to make in D&D. As soon as 'I kick off the flying platforms and rise a hundred feet in four seconds before suplexing the dragon' is on the table, you stop worrying about probability and leave it to the dice.

Kaww
2014-02-09, 04:11 AM
Nope! Can't grapple past a certain size difference. But you can trip a flying enemy. And once you're out of movement, you fall.

Grappling a house and yanking it is the sort of thing I don't find to be all that weird in a game where a man with a sharpened wedge can fell a stone tower with four strokes and a shout, the paranoid schizophrenic wiggles fingers and whispers and watches people from afar, and the country boys going out to hunt involves turning into a pack of lions instead of rifles.

I'm... Trusting your point wasn't about realism. Because if it was, it's not a good point to make in D&D. As soon as 'I kick off the flying platforms and rise a hundred feet in four seconds before suplexing the dragon' is on the table, you stop worrying about probability and leave it to the dice.

It's not realism it's mechanics, I just wanted to see how you do it. You can trip up to one size category larger than you in 3.5, so I guess tripping isn't the way either...

Vrock_Summoner
2014-02-09, 04:45 AM
Dragons should be either NPCs, random encounters, or mounts. I dunno, maybe it's just my DMs, but I think dragons make pretty terrible plot-bosses. If they're played unintelligently they're too easy to kill; played smart, the fight is boring whether you win or not (ala them spending the whole fight moving away from you while casting spells and then breath strafing you). Kind of a chore, and always a letdown. Treasure hoards are kinda nice though and dragon lairs tend to make better dungeons than dragons make encounters, though, so they definitely have a place in an interesting world.

But yeah, usually it's much more successful trying to make interesting fights out of different class/race/style combinations than "dragon". They're really quite bland opponents; once you've fought, oh, three or four dragons of varying age category, the rest of the ones after that point will feel exactly the same.

SiuiS
2014-02-09, 04:49 AM
It's not realism it's mechanics, I just wanted to see how you do it. You can trip up to one size category larger than you in 3.5, so I guess tripping isn't the way either...

Hmm. Might be; the last time I, specifically, did something like this was with war shaper werewolf jotunbrud shenanigans and my size category was "small but also up to gargantuan".

Actually, I can't think of any build someone's done in recent memory that didn't get them accidental access to more size categories specifically for maneuvers. That's kind of bizarre.

Mrc.
2014-02-09, 05:10 AM
I'd just like to say that if I was DMing and SiuiS tried that, Rule of Cool would take over and BAM! That's one nailed dragon. I mean, monks kinda suck, we should at least give them this.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-02-09, 06:52 AM
It's not realism it's mechanics, I just wanted to see how you do it. You can trip up to one size category larger than you in 3.5, so I guess tripping isn't the way either...

Trip has no such restriction. You're thinking of grappling rules. If you can win the opposed strength check you can trip the foe, regardless of any difference in size, though size difference does -rapidly- make it more and more unlikely since every size category above medium gets a cumulative +4 size bonus; +4 for large, +8 for huge, +12 for gargantuan and +16 for colossal.

kailkay
2014-02-09, 08:05 AM
I love the stories of constant dragon-tripping. Monks are so badass. :smallcool:

Dragons as a series of environmental encounters instead of monsters is a neat concept. Would anyone care to elaborate how such a thing might be played out/DMed? Would it work for lower levels, using young dragons and such from 4e? Or are they too 'pitifully weak' at that point to be anything decent besides a really tough solo encounter?

I'm thinking about throwing a young gray dragon (from the Dragonomicon) against a party of level 4 adventurers in said system. Well, the adventure will pretty much revolve around hunting it down and killing it. But are there any awesome, neat tips/tricks to employ in this regard?

Mrc.
2014-02-09, 10:05 AM
What are the rules for tripping snakes? I'd assume they count as prone but can't remember of the top of my head. Plus the image of a monk desperately trying to trip a snake is amusing, to me at least.

Talakeal
2014-02-09, 02:45 PM
Trip has no such restriction. You're thinking of grappling rules. If you can win the opposed strength check you can trip the foe, regardless of any difference in size, though size difference does -rapidly- make it more and more unlikely since every size category above medium gets a cumulative +4 size bonus; +4 for large, +8 for huge, +12 for gargantuan and +16 for colossal.

In 3.5 trip certainly does have such a restriction;

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm


I am told pathfinder relaxed this restriction, but nerfed tripping in other ways to make up for it.

Kaww
2014-02-09, 02:47 PM
Trip has no such restriction. You're thinking of grappling rules. If you can win the opposed strength check you can trip the foe, regardless of any difference in size, though size difference does -rapidly- make it more and more unlikely since every size category above medium gets a cumulative +4 size bonus; +4 for large, +8 for huge, +12 for gargantuan and +16 for colossal.

Read Trip in Players Handbook page 158.

SiuiS
2014-02-09, 04:43 PM
What are the rules for tripping snakes? I'd assume they count as prone but can't remember of the top of my head. Plus the image of a monk desperately trying to trip a snake is amusing, to me at least.

"Some creatures, such as snakes and oozes, are immune to tripping". That came in handy once, and ten bit me in the ass every other time it came up. "Trip the marilith!" "Nope! Sorry. Can't trip serpents. She crushes you to death." XD


In 3.5 trip certainly does have such a restriction;

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm

I am told pathfinder relaxed this restriction, but nerfed tripping in other ways to make up for it.

Hm. I'll check my


Read Trip in Players Handbook page 158.

Nevermind then. XD

Kish
2014-02-09, 04:47 PM
I'm currently working on the next big Sandbox MMOARPG game.
What does the A stand for?

Thrudd
2014-02-09, 05:56 PM
What does the A stand for?

Massive Multiplayer Online Asinine RPG.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-02-10, 12:37 AM
Read Trip in Players Handbook page 158.

Huh. I see why I missed it at least. Why on earth did they put that restriction before the rest of the mechanical explanation of the maneuver?

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-10, 01:31 AM
Since this isn't a 3.5-specific thread… :smallwink:


Sometimes the dragon is CEO of a major corporation. Eat the PCs? Nah, just have them arrested! Assuming, of course, that the 'runners are crazy enough to take on a job with a dragon in the first place.
Sometimes dragons are just the greatest expression of elemental might, a natural point of evolution as an elemental increases its mystical puissance. They are also given dominion over the courts of their lesser brethren and lofty positions in the Bureaucracy of Heaven.
Sometimes a dragon can be seen amidst the desert sands; only the truly foolhardy dare to try and vanquish one, but those that do can harvest its rare pearls for uncountable credits.
Sometimes a tulpa has the form of a dragon. They are incapable of interacting significantly with sleepers, but against other creatures from the Dreaming, it can be pretty potent.

I'd also like to point out that since, again, this isn't a 3.5 thread, some systems are just fine with tripping and grappling, and jumping tens or scores or even hundreds of feet is achievable in some systems.

SiuiS
2014-02-10, 02:33 AM
I'd also like to point out that since, again, this isn't a 3.5 thread, some systems are just fine with tripping and grappling, and jumping tens or scores or even hundreds of feet is achievable in some systems.

Is tripping a dragon even worth batting an eye at in Exalted! ?

ChaoticDitz
2014-02-10, 02:45 AM
Is tripping a dragon even worth batting an eye at in Exalted! ?

Are there dragons in Exalted? :smallconfused:

Also, I am amazed at the people in this thread who posted basically saying "dragons should just be random encounters cuz they ain't speshul" because, like, that just... Your fantasy culturization, what what happened to it? What sort of sick heresy did you grow up on?

Kaww
2014-02-10, 03:01 AM
What does the A stand for?

A stands for Action for all PCs. :smallwink: It means the game's not turn based.

Count I know it's not a 3.5 specific thread, but the example was 3.5. In Warhammer FRP dragoning it's called suicide. Come to think of it in most systems I've played it's suicide. :smallbiggrin:

DigoDragon
2014-02-10, 08:57 AM
"Trip the marilith!" "Nope! Sorry. Can't trip serpents. She crushes you to death." XD

Haha, I did that one to my Monk players.
Then he tried grappling... :smallconfused:




Sometimes the dragon is CEO of a major corporation. Eat the PCs? Nah, just have them arrested! Assuming, of course, that the 'runners are crazy enough to take on a job with a dragon in the first place.

Mwahaha, I love that aspect of Shadowrun. My players have never found a dragon encounter so difficult as one that has a shield of well-paid lawyers to ward off all attacks. :smallbiggrin:

The most hilarious "dragon" battle I threw at my players was one night when the party hacker got ahold of the email address of a great dragon. Tried to blackmail the dragon for money and half the team got in on it. The dragon complied with their demands for money to be wired to a swiss account.
However, the dragon's own hackers got contact info for the runner team and so he pretended to be a Johnson with a job for them. The team shows up at the fancy resaurant and their "Johnson" gives them the job to break into a construction site to steal the building's physical blue prints. The PCs take the job and break into the building for the goods.

Except it wasn't a construction site. It was a building scheduled for demolition.

That night. :smallamused:

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-10, 10:59 AM
Is tripping a dragon even worth batting an eye at in Exalted! ?I'm gonna say yes, since their kung fu has a good chance of being stronger than yours. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyKungFuIsStrongerThanYours)


Are there dragons in Exalted?Hell, yeah, there's dragons!


The Five Elemental Dragons are the children of Gaia, and patrons of the most numerous Exalted in Creation. Their children call themselves the Dragon-Blooded for a reason.
Elementals who become powerful enough take on a draconic appearance.

One of the most notable elemental dragons is the twelve-legged Kukla, who lies imprisoned within an underwater volcano. A cadre of powerful elementals guards him, for if this miles-long Earth dragon is freed, he will destroy Creation.
Fakharu is the Celestial Censor of the West, who lives in a great golden tower, disgusted at the corruption that runs rampant in the Celestial Bureaucracy.
The five Wind Masters are bear-headed dragons who oversee the Huraka, elementals that push clouds around, and make war on the water elementals of Creation.
The Quicksilver Queen is an ant-headed dragon of Earth whose cinnabar palace is crawling with mercury ants, whose bites can transmute metals.
Jealous Saffron Rage is known as the Underground Fire - he only manifests physically in the presence of a tree, his eight tongues taking the form of root-fire that devours the tree from below, otherwise only detectable as a current of dark passions, be it wrath, jealousy, or lust.
Joyous Youth Juritsu is a beautiful wood-dragon, who fathers hundreds of children across Creation from time to time - only to pick the best and brightest, and possess the child.
Swan Dragon is a fire dragon, and Celestial Censor of the South, but was driven mad during the Balorian Crusade, and so lives the life of a homeless mortal in the Lap, seemingly unaware of his true identity.

The Demon City, Malfeas, has its share of dragons.

Oramus is the Dragon Beyond the World, one of the titans who made Creation. He lies imprisoned in his own body in the Demon City, a massive sessile bulk enfolded in his broken wings. When Oramus stirs himself, buildings topple.
The Ebon Dragon is another of the Primordials, a great cosmic force imprisoned in the tarnished-brass body of his brother. The hateful green sun of the Demon City casts no shadows, yet when the Ebon Dragon soars through the sky, the Demon City below him knows night. And fears it.
Iyutha is the Messenger Soul of That Which Wears Down the Mountains, and is also called the Vitriolic Dragon. She loathes love and harmony and stability, appearing as a winged dragon with purple and ebon scales, and talons of iron.

The Dragon Kings are the prehistoric saurian race of sun-worshippers that once held dominion over humanity. Their crystal technology and natural use of Essence made their empires quite powerful, but the Primordial War decimated their numbers in a way that they were never able to recover from.

There's others, too.

Tragak
2014-02-10, 12:07 PM
I came up with an idea for RPing dragons a few months ago, would anybody like to see it again?

The way I imagine Dragons, Good or Evil:

1) Near-Immortals: unless a dragon gets killed in a fight, it would take thousands of years to die of old age, so they would probably not even pay attention to the societies of mortals that don't even make it to half a millenium. Remote dragon societies would encourage individuals not to "waste time" on such short-lived beings, thinking of those who do in the same way that we think of the crazy cat lady who doesn't have "real" human friends. Even the good dragons probably only care about evil dragons attacking mortal towns the way we think of animal cruelty.

However, some good renegades might be fascinated by how much more work we put into each of our far fewer years, perhaps wanting to preserve our mortal accomplishments in their own immortal memory before we are lost forever. On the other hand, some evil renegades might just want to have more fun, thinking that populations of such short-lived people won't be missed anyway and/or that other dragons could defend themselves better (think future serial killers that start with small animals instead of other people).

Also, by a mouse's standards, would a human be considered arrogant?

2) Super-genius spellcasters: This has been covered pretty well; any dragon is going to be smarter than the DM, any of the players, and most of the player characters. If "pests" (mortal adventurers) get into a dragon's home, there are probably already traps and "guard dogs" (minions and/or monsters).

3) Treasure obsession: how is that different from humans :smallbiggrin:

Bonus points to anybody who didn't need to be told that I was describing dragons as Time Lords.