Which is better for a level 12 druid feat

[deathwolf669]

So I am a level 12 druid with PoV in a frostburn and was thinking do I take natural bond at level 9 or frozen wild shape with dragon wild shape at 12 or do I take natural bond at 9 with which wild shape feat at 12?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So I am a level 12 druid with PoV in a frostburn and was thinking do I take natural bond at level 9 or frozen wild shape with dragon wild shape at 12 or do I take natural bond at 9 with which wild shape feat at 12?

Do you mean VoP?

What race is your character, and what other feats do you have?

If you do have VoP, consider taking Exalted Companion for a Celestial version of whatever creature you get. That will allow you to give your animal companion VoP as well.

[eggynack]

I would definitely avoid frozen wild shape, and maybe natural bond. Frozen wild shape only really comes online at level 15, when you get cryohydra form, and by that point you should be running around as a dire tortoise full time, with high utility forms being the only thing that can replace it for any length of time. Cryohydra is just a beat stick. As for natural bond, it's a good feat, but it's really more of an early game feat, when melee'ing about is good. Still, with exalted companion and hopefully VoP as Biffoniacus_Furiou noted, the companion may stay relevant for long enough that natural bond is still good.

As for what you should take, dragon wild shape is amazing, so that's a definite yes. WhamBamSam made me up a great list of forms over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16733730#post16733730), and on top of that you can also use juvenile Li Lungs (OA, 156) for a whole massive pile of stuff. Really versatile feat. If you do have VoP, then you probably already have exalted wild shape at 8th level, but there is fortunately little crossover between what the two provide, with exalted granting amazing tactical teleportation abilities and buffing animal forms a lot. Natural bond is a reasonable second feat, especially with a VoP'd up animal companion, though companion spellbond (PHB II, 77) is another good option, because the ability to buff your companion efficiently is worth a lot at higher levels. So, definitely dragon wild shape at 12th, and maybe on the natural bond at 9th.

[deathwolf669]

Sorry yes I have VoP and my DM wont let my AC take VoP :(

I am a dragonborn and my other feats are sacred vow, VoP, natural spell and some exalted ones, like Nymphs kiss and Exalted companion. Any other feat suggestions would be great :D


I should be able to take cryohydra at level 12 shouldn't I as a 12 headed beast with 12 heads? I wasnt thinking of taking exalted wildshape as it doesnt really appeal to me.

Oh I was told Natural bond wont really help a druid out, I have an exalted fleshraker so its -4 to its level, would it be only -1 with natural bond?

[eggynack]

Sorry yes I have VoP and my DM wont let my AC take VoP :(
Ah well. Tis a tragic thing. Natural bond is a bit worse in that case, as is exalted companion, though you will still get the latter cause there's not that many options. I'd tend to apply the template as long as it doesn't reduce the animal companion's advancement spot.


I am a dragonborn and my other feats are sacred vow, VoP, natural spell and some exalted ones, like Nymphs kiss and Exalted companion. Any other feat suggestions would be great :D
Those are all reasonably good. Also good are touch of golden ice and maybe intuitive attack. They're not great, but there aren't many options, and there're a lot of feat slots, so you'll end up taking pretty much anything that's reasonably worthwhile, and a few things besides.


I should be able to take cryohydra at level 12 shouldn't I as a 12 headed beast with 12 heads?
Frozen wild shape sticks to normal size limitations, and you get huge at level 15. You can get it faster, but then you're also getting dire tortoise faster, and dire tortoise is pretty much always going to be better.

I wasnt thinking of taking exalted wildshape as it doesnt really appeal to me.
You should rethink that, because it's probably the best exalted feat. Also, it's a relevant exalted feat at all, and again, there aren't many other options. The big thing is that you can take blink dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm) form, which means dimension door as a free action every round, which doesn't interfere with normal actions, as well as blink on demand. Crazy strong, especially because you don't have many tactical teleportation or miss chance options otherwise. The second major aspect is that you can apply the celestial template to any animal form, which gets you a bunch of stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm), and per the feat, also gets you any Ex or Su abilities of those forms (mostly Ex). You also get unicorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) form, which is mostly just always on magic circle against evil, which is nice.

Oh I was told Natural bond wont really help a druid out, I have an exalted fleshraker so its -4 to its level, would it be only -1 with natural bond?
It works in that manner, yes. Penalties and bonuses are applied in the best possible fashion, and that means the -4 comes before the +3. You should probably wait on the celestial template until level 13 though, because otherwise you're trading a whole stage of advancement for a bunch of stuff that is not worth that.

[deathwolf669]

So dire tortoise is better than dragons? Oh and when I hit level 15 can I take huge dragons too or I am limited to medium and small?

So I do not have to add the template to the Animal companion straight the way I can wait till when I want too? How does that work as I will have to explain it to my DM.

[eggynack]

So dire tortoise is better than dragons? Oh and when I hit level 15 can I take huge dragons too or I am limited to medium and small?
Dire tortoise provides a particular form of utility, always acting in the surprise round, that no other form provides. It's one of the druid's best ways to screw with the action economy. At the same time, dragon forms provide a significant quantity of other utility, from high level access to every movement mode (beyond that provided ordinarily), piles of immunities, some of which are exceedingly rare, and a pile of abilities that you don't normally get, or get in a less efficient way, like the fact that you can take deep dragon form for always on true seeing. Cryohydra form also provides somewhat unique utility, in that you can beat face better than just about anything else out there, but you're heading into levels where that's just not worth as much as improving your spell slinging abilities.

As for size limitations, frozen wild shape explicitly says that it follows normal size limits, so it does, while dragon wild shape explicitly says that you can only take small and medium dragon forms, so you are limited in that fashion regardless of level. Level does affect HD though, so that's a relevant thing.


So I do not have to add the template to the Animal companion straight the way I can wait till when I want too? How does that work as I will have to explain it to my DM.
Exalted companion allows you to apply the template, but it doesn't force you to. Thus, at level 12, you can use an ordinary fleshraker, and at level 13 you can release it and summon forth a templated one while you have time off. You might want to ask your DM to let you just apply the template directly in some day long ceremony, if you feel attachment towards this particular fleshraker, but that's between you and him. The two outcomes would be mechanically identical, so I would allow it.

[deathwolf669]

Ah if I want to keep the fleshraker I would have to apply the template from the start as I have already been told I wont get another. Guess its a bit far one to walk either that or it gets cold feet and runs away.

Ah tis a shame, I think I saw an epic level version that let me take larger dragons which is where I am getting confused.


So after reading WhamBamSam's article makes me think which is the best set of dragon to take, so many to choose from, I even have seen a brainstealer dragon which I think goes againt my character so I wont take it :D

I am guessing each is situational.

[eggynack]

Ah if I want to keep the fleshraker I would have to apply the template from the start as I have already been told I wont get another. Guess its a bit far one to walk either that or it gets cold feet and runs away.
Presumably, yeah. Summoning forth an animal companion is rather an anywhere and anytime sort of deal. Odd thing, that.


Ah tis a shame, I think I saw an epic level version that let me take larger dragons which is where I am getting confused.
Indeed there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#dragonWildShape). The limit doesn't stop dragon wild shape from being one of the most powerful feats in the game though, which it is.


So after reading WhamBamSam's article makes me think which is the best set of dragon to take, so many to choose from, I even have seen a brainstealer dragon which I think goes againt my character so I wont take it :D

I am guessing each is situational.
Some are more situational than others, with some being pretty reasonable in general. That list is reasonably complete with respect to first party forms, though it is missing the two relevant lung dragons from Oriental Adventures, as I mentioned. There's no real limit to which ones you can become at any given moment, so all of those abilities are accessible within a standard action and a wild shape use. If you had item use then you could pick up a mantle of the wild, thus making that a swift action and a wild shape use, but alas, such is life.

[deathwolf669]

Presumably, yeah. Summoning forth an animal companion is rather an anywhere and anytime sort of deal. Odd thing, that.
Don't I know it, I want to use the full extent of my druid abilities but they are being reined in.

Now to sit back and giggle at lung wang being a flying dragon turtle :D


EDIT: Just noticed there are only 3 Lung dragons I can take with the first one having 13 HD :( Roll on level 13

[eggynack]

Eh, shen lungs don't give you that much outside of the generic lung dragon abilities (like invisibility and blindsight, among others), and yu lungs grant less, though I think you get better blindsight from them, cause you're using a greater age category. It's mostly about Li lungs at 14 HD, which have cool stuff like earthquake, solid stone tunneling, and the ability to deafen everyone in a 60 ft. radius. Cool stuff. I'ma add yu lungs to my list though. Blindsight out to 90 ft. is cool.