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Captnq
2014-02-04, 07:42 PM
Working on some concepts here. Please tear it apart. This was inspired by the Debunking Tippyverse thread. It is not RAW, but a theoretical framework.

Dungeons and Dragons is a curious game.

If you look at it closely and follow it to it’s logical conclusions, the world should accelerate out of control. Take the humble wall of salt spell. It should revolutionize food preservation. The Teleport circle spell makes it possible for entire armies to invade in short order. Transportation costs are nothing compared to the cost of a permanent teleport circle. If one allows beneficial spell traps, an entire city can have it’s medical and food needs taken care of. Garments woven out of illusion and fabric created from nothing become the norm. Yes, magic taken to it’s logical conclusion can only make the world a paradise without scarcity or want.

If only it was that simple.

This is about what happens after that point. This post is based on two simple questions, “How much magic is too much magic?” and “What happens afterwards?” First we will answer how much is too much, then we will get into the results.

How much magic is too much?
To answer the question, first we must answer how magic works. D&D leaves the details up in the air so individual DMs can make their own choices. Once you select a given paradigm, it limits your options. My arguments requires that I define how magic works before we can understand what happens if we have too much.

The multiverse exists as a huge wheel. Individual prime material planes may have unusual configurations, but the over all cosmology seems to follow a regular pattern. What’s consistent is the existence of the positive and negative material planes. The ebb and flow of energy through out the cosmos seems to begin at one pole and flow to the other. Either directly, or indirectly, the flow of magic is tied to the positive and negative material planes.

They are attracted to each other. Energy flows from to the other and they interact. This interaction is manipulated by those who use magic and it’s flow it altered. A spell cast, a magic item created, a magical creature that takes flight, these all require the flow of magical energy through the plane they occupy. This flow can be interrupted. Anti-magic fields and dead magic zones are examples of this magical flow being redirected and a zone of null-magic being created. It doesn’t completely destroy all magic. Extraordinary abilities still function, mind you. But the concept is basically the same

Two principals govern this paradigm of magic, Opposites attract and like repels. The flow of positive to negative energy happens because they are attracted to one another. They both flow towards one another and this flow and interaction is what allows magic to manifest to various degrees. Of course there are alternative sources of power. The elemental planes, the outer planes, divine power, and so on and so on. However, they all come back to the ebb and flow of positive to negative energy.

So what happens when you start to build a post-scarcity society? Where 9th level spells are common place and people don’t walk from city to city, but teleport at a whim? Where food is created out of magic itself and there simply is no longer an economy of a typical sort. When flying cities are easy to make, magic tends to build up. This accumulation of magical energy, be it negative or positive, starts to exert a repulsive force. The same happens if you have too much negative energy. Let us look at the three scenarios.

Too Much Positive Energy
When you have too many good aligned gods or too many wizards building too many impressive magical artifacts, you start to get a build up of positive energy. Now the scale of a normal campaign world is usually well below the limit. Even one 17th level wizard casting every spell he knows every day is not enough to cause an imbalance. (Although, in some very delicate prime material planes, this could be the case.) No, it’s about the point where flying cities and gates/teleport circles become the normal way for every day citizens to commute to work that it gets out of hand.

When this happens, it takes more and more effort for positive energy to work it’s way into the plane. The flow starts to divert and you get less and less people born with the ability to work magic. Naturally occurring magical animals start to become scarce in the wild. You don’t get large scale dead magic zones at this point, but they are possible.

Of course, the high concentration of positive energy attracts negative energy. This usually starts to manifest with a higher number of spontaneous undead creation. People who die without proper burial have a tendency to get back up. As the imbalance gets worse, even a proper burial will not stop it and spells must be cast to keep the dead from reanimating. Necromantic creatures start to manifest in the wilds and areas with large number of dead animal bodies have a tendency to spontaneously generate undead that wander off with murderous intent. Note, the manifesting undead are not controlled, nor are they driven by a need to destroy positive energy. They are a symptom of a greater problem. Sometimes the rise of undead is enough to destroy a magical empire and the situation rights itself, but this is not by design.

Too Much Negative Energy
Sometimes evil wins. Negative energy is just as useful as positive energy and can do many of the same things. Who needs food when everyone is undead? Who needs a flying city when you make your city out of bones and the whole thing walks around? A negative energy imbalance often results in large numbers of undead, but more importantly, a skeletal work force.

This is often the sign of an out of balance society. When every bone is seen as something to animate and put to work. Doors made of skeletons that open when you approach. Carts that have bone horses, or have bone axles that don’t need to be pulled. Furniture made from bones that walks around to where you need it, or conforms to your body shape for maximum comfort. On a small scale, this isn’t a problem. On a large scale, bone fed into animate dead spell traps becomes the backbone of society’s work force. Cheap, eternal labor at no cost other then the resetting animate dead spell trap.

Of course this leads to the problem of too much negative energy. Like positive energy, negative energy starts to avoid the plane in question. Undead no longer spontaneously form. Undead start to de-animate without warning, suddenly crumbling to dust. It starts on the lower forms of undead first. Mindless undead are those most prone to de-animation. Higher forms of undead, the intelligent ones, start to suffer as well. An increased hunger for life force by whatever means they consume it. Ignore the hunger for too long, you start to crumble.

Of course this attracts more positive energy. The sun may burn a little bit brighter. Some days, the undead might find that indirect sunlight is enough to harm them. Undead normally immune to sunlight might find themselves smoking should they find themselves in direct sunlight. Furthermore, more and more spontaneous spell casters will appear. Sorcerers and favored souls will suddenly discover they have the ability to cast spells.

Wildlife will become more fierce. The few remaining wilds that remain un-ravaged by the undead will become savage and fierce. Creatures may develop the ability to channel cure light wounds and other spontaneous spell-like abilities. Note, they won’t have a built in hatred of undead or negative energy, but they could provide a destabilizing force against an undead empire.

The Gods Respond
Often at this stage, the gods will step in and take action. If they do not, then usually Gods from nearby prime material planes will take note of the growing imbalance and “drop a dime”, warning them about the problem. The steps gods will take at this point vary, but can range from “tree-hugging eco-babble” to “destroy the offending empire.” However, occasionally, either the gods are unable, unwilling, or not present to correct the imbalance. When this happens, it can advance to the next stage.

Too Much Magic
The exact point is left up to the DM, but it will happen sooner or later in any plane that has achieved maximum magical saturation, if things are allowed to stay out of balance for too long. The exact nature of the imbalance varies.
• Perhaps a holy god of good creates a world of peace and harmony by completely destroying all things “evil” and anything undead. All negative energy is driven from the plane. With all the negative energy gone, there is nothing to attract more positive energy. Magic in general avoids the plane.
• Perhaps the undead completely swarm the planet, murdering all life except for the holding pens where they keep human slaves. The sun itself has been destroyed or a giant shield is in place preventing the light from reaching the planet. With all the positive energy gone, there is nothing to attract more negative energy. Again, magic in general avoids the plane.
• Perhaps the inhabitants have struck some sort of bargain, where positive energy and negative energy users have a form of stalemate. Kindly wizards floating above the clouds in cities of gold without want or need. Below the rolling black clouds, a hellscape of eternal darkness where necromancers dwell and research eldritch lore in cyclopean tombs. With the plane swollen with both positive and negative energy, both forms of energy are diverted away, flowing around the offending plane and no longer through it.

This is the point where a universe reaches a tipping point. A tippyverse has reached the upward boundaries of what magic can tolerate. Abused and stretched to the breaking point, magic starts to fail. The first sign of the approaching magical drought is the appearance of dead magic zones. Every plane has them, but now they are appearing spontaneously, and usually in out of the way areas.

Magic has a tendency to accumulate in areas such as cities. These act as “knots” in the flow of magic. The “tears” in the fabric of the world occur at the mid-point between large concentrations of magic. Think of it like the tide going out. Cities tend to be at the “lowest” point. So where ever there isn’t large concentrations of magic will be a “high” point, and the first to be exposed as the water runs out. Of course, the problem is this makes it harder to detect the problem. A few out of the way dead magic zones are hardly a problem, but it’s only the beginning.

If drastic actions are taken at this point, the damage can be reversed. Basically you need to start chucking every bit of magic you can find into a sphere of annihilation. Better still, you need to contact the god of magic and sacrifice every bit of magic on the planet to him/her/it in hopes he has enough energy to fix the fabric of reality before it’s too late. Chances are that if it’s gotten this bad, nobody is suddenly going to have a change of heart. The gods have either caused the problem, or failed in their duty.

Normally at this point the neighbors take notice. Left unattended, the problem will get BAD. Then like rats fleeing a sinking ship, anyone with any levels will leave the dying plane and seek shelter elsewhere, bringing with them the very attitudes that caused the problem in the first place. If you can’t keep your own plane sanitary, let me assure you, nobody else wants you.

A number of pantheons through out the multiverse keep an eye on these sorts of things. Usually they will give a friendly heads up to whatever gods rule there, then a stern warning, then perhaps some threats. Once it reaches this point, the gods take a more drastic approach. There are two options:
• They can disrupt the harmonics of the entire plane.
• They can kill all magic in the target plane.

Option 1: Isolation
Usually this is done with planes that still have active gods. The pantheon alliance is made up a wide number of gods or all faiths and alignments. Needless to say, they don’t agree on anything. Getting them to work together is next to impossible, and invading a plane with entrenched gods ruling there is an iffy proposition. Furthermore, agreeing who gets control of the plane afterwards never works. So the solution is simple containment, rather then overt force.

The offending plane is given a solid divine “whack”, sort of like using a putter on a golf ball. This has two effects. One, it starts the plane moving through the astral plane and “out of the way”. This helps to clear up any issues with the flow of magical energy to any of it’s neighbors. Two, it causes the universe in question to start “vibrating” at a different pitch. This has the immediate effect of severing every gate and/or extra-dimensional connection. It also makes plane shift impossible, because every known “vibration” is now scrambled. Anyone trying to gate from inside is going to fail, for a while at any rate. A while being anywhere from decade to a millennia, but a few centuries is usually par for the course.

It is believed that usually when a plane has become a “tippyverse”, it’s doomed. So all the other gods need to do is move it out of the way of the normal flow of magic and let it implode. While this process does not harm anyone inside the target plane directly, those who rely on extra-dimensional movement for resources and power notice right away. And while the “whack” doesn’t accelerate the continuing loss of magic, it certainly causes the inhabitants to panic.

How do they normally solve a problem? You guessed it, with MAGIC. Using magic to try and fix the problem usually just accelerates the process and dead magic zones become more and more common. Within a matter of years, the dead magic zones cover 99% of the planet.

Option 2: Kill all magic
If there are no gods left alive in the offending plane, the pantheon alliance usually uses a more direct approach. Dimensional compression. This usually involves getting something with a bit of weight to it, a personal demi-plane will do. The alliance usually keeps a few planes drifting about the astral plane just for this purpose. Said plane is given a divine “whack”. Then another. Then another. Then another. The goal is to give is a good amount of momentum. Then a few more whacks to make sure it safely makes it through the astral plane without hitting anything else by accident, and then you line it up to ram the offending plane.

The impact has no direct effect on the inhabitants of the plane itself. Lined up correctly, it will hit at a perfect ninety degrees to the axis of magic and both planes will compress, losing a dimension in the process. There is no massive explosion or release of energy. The universe just loses a dimension for a while. Imagine that you could take a cube and turn it into a flat piece of paper. That’s what happens to both universes, except the goal is to compress the target universe's dimension of magic.

The result is the entire target plane becomes a dead magic zone. Extraordinary abilities still function, but spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities all fail. Artifacts continue to function, since they contain their own “internal” dimension of magic, but any mundane magic created by mortals fails. Even epic magic fails, unless it is powered by an artifact.

The result is a “cooling off” period of a few centuries. The thought is that the plane in question will “settle down” and when the plane returns to it’s natural shape, it won’t have as big of a snarl and magic will flow naturally again. Oh, not every part of the world will be a dead magic zone, but 99% of it will be, and that’s good enough.

Option 3: Ignore the problem
There is a third option of course. Ignore the problem. The multiverse is huge and the gods can’t watch everything. Sometimes a plane is fragile and it doesn’t take nearly as much magic to break it as other planes. Some planes can take a whole lot of abuse, but when it snaps, it goes down hill FAST. For whatever reason, the pantheon alliance either can't come to an agreement, or they just plain miss the problem. When this happens, the problem goes unchecked. Usually this results in the inhabitants becoming much more aggressive about finding magic. Once they begin to notice the huge rents in the fabric of reality and the resulting dead magic zones, they might decide to do something about it.

Run Away
This is a common response. Simply get up and go. Take whatever it is you really like about your home plane and leave. You got a flying city? Fly it to another universe where there isn’t as much hassle. The problem is that you aren’t fixing the problem. Furthermore, you are likely to just repeat the process all over again, especially if you didn’t learn why the dead magic problem was occurring in the first place.

Also, Gods of other planes don’t like interlopers. Flying your city into some other plane, especially when you are arrogant enough to tool around the cosmos in a flying city, usually offends the locals. This can end violently if you are too prideful. Humbling yourself before the local gods might work, but typically they’ll want you to dismantle your city. This doesn’t often go over very well.

No, the best way to run away from the problem is to just slip away as a lone spell caster. Set up a small magical base somewhere in the multiverse and just get back to whatever it is that you do to keep yourself amused. This is by far the most common outcome.

Fight It
Pride come before the fall, and sometimes people just don’t know when to quit. This is usually the point where the REALLY BIG magical devices come out. For example, that giant glowing thing in the sky. I think people call it “the Sun”. Now that thing seems to be just chock full of energy. I bet THAT could keep my unseen servant running for a while.

Such methods of “cannibalizing” the energy sources of your home plane rarely work. All they do is accelerate the process. The setting of Dark Sun is a perfect example of what happens when the process of cannibalizing magic goes too far. Worse is what happens when someone figures out the real problem. If they decide they aren’t going anywhere, and they are GOING to fix this plane, then it comes down to getting magic from SOMEWHERE. That usually involves raiding other dimensions.

Imagine your world is a typical D&D setting. Then a giant flying city appears overhead. Next thing you know, every living thing for a thousand miles is dead and converted into magical energy, stored in the flying cities’ batteries. Flying constructs go out to collect all the bones. The bones make excellent raw materials, don’t you know. That is the sort of thing that could happen when a high magic plane starts to get desperate. Hence why the pantheons tend to work together on this sort of problem. Nobody wants flying energy collecting cities draining other planes of magic. This sort of thing needs to get nipped in the bud.

Conclusion
Under this framework, while the Tippyverse might be considered a forgone conclusion, by adding a cosmological level of scarcity to magic, we bring the cosmological imbalance back in line with the standard D&D model.

BrokenChord
2014-02-04, 08:30 PM
You know the entire point of the Tippyverse is to be the inevitable conclusion by RAW, right? With common sense or fluff applied, the chances of it happening are significantly reduced. And... I'm pretty sure most of what you're put here is fluff. Not that that's a bad thing, in fact some of these portions of the post-Tippyverse would make great settings, but this isn't really going to do anything but cause TV fanatics to complain irrationally at you about the exact thing I just explained.

AuraTwilight
2014-02-04, 08:36 PM
How do you figure that Negative and Positive energy inherently attract each other? The existence of the Energy Planes implies the exact opposite. Without negative energy, everything fills with so much positive energy that they VIOLENTLY EXPLODE.

If anything, the two neutralize each other, not lead to a continuous scaling like you imply.

Skysaber
2014-02-04, 09:03 PM
You know the entire point of the Tippyverse is to be the inevitable conclusion by RAW, right?

And yet what he wrote sounds like half of it got quoted from the Fall of Netheril - which is also genuine, 100% WOTC source material.

BrokenChord
2014-02-04, 09:12 PM
And yet what he wrote sounds like half of it got quoted from the Fall of Netheril - which is also genuine, 100% WOTC source material.

Oh, no, I wasn't saying there was something wrong with it or it was all assumptions or illegitimate or something. Just, the RAW perspective that Tippy and co. use discounts anything that isn't a straight-up rule; half the content of the rulebooks is equivalent to a black stain filling up a few pages to them, meaning that using this as an answer to that is somewhat... I don't know, out-of-context, I guess.

nedz
2014-02-04, 09:13 PM
Post-Tippyverse would be 4E.

Captnq
2014-02-04, 09:14 PM
You know the entire point of the Tippyverse is to be the inevitable conclusion by RAW, right? With common sense or fluff applied, the chances of it happening are significantly reduced. And... I'm pretty sure most of what you're put here is fluff. Not that that's a bad thing, in fact some of these portions of the post-Tippyverse would make great settings, but this isn't really going to do anything but cause TV fanatics to complain irrationally at you about the exact thing I just explained.

I didn't say I was trying to debunk. His campaign setting has merit. He is taking RAW to it's logical conclusion. This is a post-tippyverse discussion, not a tippyverse discussion.

And if they have complaints, I welcome them.

Captnq
2014-02-04, 09:28 PM
How do you figure that Negative and Positive energy inherently attract each other? The existence of the Energy Planes implies the exact opposite. Without negative energy, everything fills with so much positive energy that they VIOLENTLY EXPLODE.

If anything, the two neutralize each other, not lead to a continuous scaling like you imply.

Positive and negative charges attract one another and indeed cancle one another other.

Positive MATERIAL plane and negative MATERIAL plane are planes made up of... you guessed it... material.

The very stuff of positive and negative energy flow, and needless to say, are attracted to one another and cancel one another out.

The basis for this cosmology is that the movement of almost imperceptible amounts of positive and negative material plane energy drift about the cosmos and are drawn into prime material planes. These "universes" have "magic" in them because of the interaction of positive and negative materials.

Assuming this as a premise, which is partially supported by 1st edition material, (see original AD&D DM's GUIDE, pg 40 subsection "spellcasting" for details.) I am attempting to draw a conclusion based on this. (Also, the dimensional compressing is based on D&D boxed set: immortals.)

Yes indeed, they do cancel each other out, when the directly interact. However most magic using beings usually favor one type over another.

nedz
2014-02-04, 09:34 PM
This is the AD&D cosmology: I'm not sure this ever made it into 3.5 ?

Glimbur
2014-02-04, 09:44 PM
Interesting campaign setting. Which period would you suggest starting the adventure in?

Positive Dominant could be interesting; might draw an Elder Evil. If the players want a short-ish campaign with high powered characters that's a good setting for it.

Negative dominant has potential too; players could be anything from low level necromancers and minions scrabbling to make ends meet, to high powered death wizards investigating the overall problem to do-gooders trying to hide and also do good.

3.5 is not very good at playing without magic, so a setting shortly after the magic dimension is flattened would be less than ideal.

A setting when magic is being rediscovered is, of course, full of possibilities.

Interesting ideas, and don't be surprised if they turn up in some campaigns. I have a game I want to run already, but a game of low-level minion necromancers who are the first to discover negative energy is weakening appeals to me.

Captnq
2014-02-04, 09:59 PM
Actually...

All the work I did on grafts got to me and I came up with an idea for campaign setting where basically the adventure is set in Post-magic crash where the order of the day is Extraordinary Abilties because that is the only thing that works consistently in a world criss-crossed with large strips of anti-magic.

So people tend to directly affix their "magic items" directly to themselves so that they become a "part" of you. Sort of a Body Horror-Punk setting. Its a world where you run into what amounts to magical cannibalism.

Here... I'll throw up the rought draft/notes...

Captnq
2014-02-04, 10:00 PM
Interesting campaign setting. Which period would you suggest starting the adventure in?


Why Magic Items Cost What They Do:
At some point in the augmentation genre, a single question was asked, “I wonder what a single unit of magic is.”

This researcher looked into it and started to try divide magic into smaller and smaller chunks until you couldn’t divide it anymore. So after some research he came up with what turned out to be, The Gold Piece. A single unit of magic. Turns out you can directly melt down gold for magic and same with most "valuable" materials. Then he did a bit more work and figured out what an XP was. He hired some people to "adventure" and measured them over the ears and took samples and used XP transferring spells and eventually the XP was discovered as well.

Well, gosh darn it if the guy didn't want to publish his life's work.

Suddenly wizards, clerics, everyone really, was figuring out EXACTLY how much it took to make a given potion, or a +2 sword. Shortly afterwards, some other wizards worked off of those calculations and discovered what a +1 actually was. Defining magic as to it’s limits and increments made things a whole easier to figure out. After a few short years this info trickled down to the merchants who learned how much they were being ripped off.

I paid HOW MUCH for a plus +1 dagger and it only cost WHAT???

Well, being a free market people started taking business elsewhere. Low level apprentices started under cutting higher level wizards. Suddenly there was a rebound. For a short few years there, you could actually buy some magic items for less then the cost to create them. Well, that didn't last long. I might be a holy crusader and you might be an evil necromancer, but we each got bills to pay. And so an informal "agreement" was made. It was never written down, it was never made into a treaty or anything so formal. There was no single date. It just sort of... slid into the current state of affairs.

Magic items are made for X GP and X/25 xp and sold for 2X. Originally it was a compromise that just was "common" sense. Then it became tradition. After a while, it became how things were done. Oh, occasionally you got someone who gouged the prices or someone who flooded the market, but that didn’t happen very often, because gold itself is magic. In a magical world, the value of gold is not based on rarity, but on the actual usefulness of the material itself.

If you flood the market with a million gold pieces in the real world, inflation goes crazy. If you flood the market in the fantasy world, a great deal of the gold becomes stock piled in a wizard's tower, a cleric's church, or a dragon's hoard. What isn't stockpiled is used to make or trade for materials to make magic. Occasionally the gold is used to make something magical and it actually leaves the supply forever.

Now, there's only so much gold, and gold's heavy and gold isn't that effective for making magic. Wizards usually use something else when actually making something. A healing potion made from gold is hard to carry around on an adventure. Still, gold is useful as a means of trade and works just fine when its used as the lubrication in the gears of commerce. In a standard D&D universe, you CAN make a house out of a gem. You CAN make food out of gold. It always takes the same amount of gold or other raw materials. Because they know what a unit of magical energy is.

That’s in a standard world where magic hasn’t gotten out of control. Once you reach the tipping point and begin that slide into a world of dying magic, then things begin to change.

Experience points
In the augmentation genre, experience points for crafting are actually not that hard to come by. People are rather desperate and spells and magic items that transfer xps are not that difficult to use. So if you need the xps to make something, chances are you can find someone to sell them. That’s part of the problem.

You see, low level people can make quite a bit of extra cash if they sell off their extra xps. If we go by the standard 5 to 1 ratio, that generates quite a bit of cash very fast. If I’m third level, and I go out and get 1,000 xps, I can sell that for 5,000 gold. If I keep it and advance in level, it gets harder to get more xps. I get less xps when I do get them, thus I get less money. Selling xps is better then working.

In the augmentation genre, it’s assumed that that ratio isn’t set in stone. In a world where food is hard to come by, there might be a whole lot of people willing to sell xps. That will drive the price down. Instead of five gold per xp, maybe it’s one gold. Maybe it’s one copper. So in an augmentation genre, most people are low level because the system keeps them that way. They can’t get ahead because what you need to get power is to keep your xps, except that you can’t afford not to.

Maybe the state charges taxes in the form of xps. Maybe instead of paying in gold, you have to ante up in life force that the state uses to power it’s magic. Maybe they charge a sliding scale. The higher your level, the more they pay. There are many options in the augmentation setting, none of them are pleasant. But one thing is clear, most people are low level because they can’t afford to keep their xps long enough to advance and become powerful. This is how those in charge keep the little guy under control.

Gold pieces
The other thing you need to craft a magic item is gold. Well, actually, you don’t, you need the equivalent amount of materials “worth” that much gold. In the augmentation genre, its assumed that there isn’t an unlimited supply of raw magical materials just waiting to be scooped up. You might search an entire acre of verdant forest and only find five gold pieces worth of raw material. Since this is a world where the magical empires of old have already looted the planet of all the valuable materials that could be mined, we have to depend on renewable resources. But what has the most gold pieces of raw materials? Hint, you’re using it to read this book.

That’s right, intelligent creatures. Magical creatures are rare, but we can make up for that with raw materials found in most dead bodies. The more hit dice or levels someone or something has when it dies, the more “gold pieces” in raw material can be harvested. In a world where magic is dying, you are literally worth more to a crafter dead then alive.

The Theme
We come to the theme behind Augmentation: the Death of Magic. We take the concept inherent to every D&D game and take it to it’s logical conclusion. Not only do you go out there and kill monsters to take their treasure, but you also butcher the monster for the raw materials you might need to craft magic items. Augmentation is about cannibalism. It is about body horror. It is about inhumanity and the view that everyone and everything is parts to be consumed for strength or power.

Your players may revel in the destruction, murdering or killing for power. That is certainly an option. The path to power is to destroy your enemies and take their strength. However, if your players are heroes, they may find themselves having to make difficult choices. Chopping up a lizard man for parts isn’t that hard a choice to make, but are they willing to chop up a dead elf? It’s easy to strip someone for magic items when they are wearing them, but are they willing to surgically remove someone’s construct heart? Will they sell it, or will they do the unthinkable and use it themselves? What price is power worth? Would you cut off your arms and replace them with wood if it included access to druidic powers?

This is the theme of augmentation, but you don’t have to use it. The rules work just fine without the horror-punk. You can use these rules as is in a normal setting. They are balanced for play in a normal game, we just suggest these setting alterations so as to push the characters towards a particular focus. Also, the augmentation genre is excellent for a high level campaign when the PCs have gotten too powerful. What better way to dial thing back then to suddenly cut the campaign world off from extradimensional movement and then strangle magic itself?

Tommy2255
2014-02-04, 10:05 PM
About the whole "Fly your city out of your plane and go look for a new one". Can't we just create some planes? How does Genesis interact with all this nonsense? Heck, if we can sail our city out into the Astral Sea, why do we even need a new plane? We weren't really using our old one for anything special, the city is self-sufficient. I mean, really you should just be able to plop your whole civilization directly into the Positive Energy Plane if you need to. There's plenty of ways to avoid exploding, and your city full of 20th level casters have access to all of them. Grab a bunch of continuous items of Positive Energy Protection and get going. It's not like you're going to run out of Positive Energy on the Positive Energy Plane (although that would be rather interesting).

Captnq
2014-02-04, 10:12 PM
About the whole "Fly your city out of your plane and go look for a new one". Can't we just create some planes? How does Genesis interact with all this nonsense? Heck, if we can sail our city out into the Astral Sea, why do we even need a new plane? We weren't really using our old one for anything special, the city is self-sufficient. I mean, really you should just be able to plop your whole civilization directly into the Positive Energy Plane if you need to. There's plenty of ways to avoid exploding, and your city full of 20th level casters have access to all of them. Grab a bunch of continuous items of Positive Energy Protection and get going. It's not like you're going to run out of Positive Energy on the Positive Energy Plane (although that would be rather interesting).

I'm certain that is an option for some and I shall include that observation. I suspect, however, that the denizens of the Positive material plane might have something to say about it. I'm sure given the infinite number of prime material planes, someone was forward thinking enough to pull this off.

I am uncertain if it would be a normal outcome for 95% of the population, however. I have no doubt many a high level spellcaster would have abandoned ship long before it gets to the point of a magic-crash. The exactl method and destination would be up to the individual and society in which they were raised.

Brookshw
2014-02-04, 10:14 PM
Captnq: curse you're hide for postulating an intertsting experiment :smallbiggrin:

I need to think on this one but in the meantime wanted to say kudos. To be continued.....

Tommy2255
2014-02-04, 10:17 PM
I suspect, however, that the denizens of the Positive material plane might have something to say about it.

From the SRD description, it sounds like most of the Positive Energy Plane is uninhabited: "Major positive-dominant. Some regions of the plane have the minor positive-dominant trait instead, and those islands tend to be inhabited."

I'm not trying to poke holes because I dislike the idea, by the way. I'm trying to poke holes because I like the idea. It could be fun, and I'd like to flesh it out as well as possible.

Captnq
2014-02-04, 10:26 PM
I'm not trying to poke holes because I dislike the idea, by the way. I'm trying to poke holes because I like the idea. It could be fun, and I'd like to flesh it out as well as possible.

Oh, please poke away. It's why I posted. I don't think I missed much, but it's always possible I missed a glaring hole somewhere.

Skysaber
2014-02-04, 10:51 PM
Oh, please poke away. It's why I posted. I don't think I missed much, but it's always possible I missed a glaring hole somewhere.

I personally don't see much room to poke. Like I said before, it sounds like you quoted half of that out of the Fall of Netheril. The differences are trivial, and amount to making something generic so it can be applied anywhere, when before it had been specific.

There's even so much stuff in the Netheril material about "they were using so much magic that the strain on the Weave grew so immense that it took the full time and attention of the goddess of magic to keep it together" that it actually grows rather tiresome in repetition.

And yes, these worms - which appear in no other campaign world - just kind of spontaneously generate out of nowhere and begin flinging about massive areas of dead magic are *openly stated* as being in direct response to that.

Gnome Alone
2014-02-05, 03:35 AM
Post-Tippyverse would be 4E.

Chemical burn.

To sorta quasi-answer Ye Olde OP, the whole thing with the "Tippyverse" seems to rely on two things: logically following through with the consequences of widely available magic, and ludicrous abuse of some dumb rule about auto-resetting traps. Ignoring this second bit, even a cursory attempt at integrating what we think of as a normal society with Arcane Power (TM) would result in fairly complete post-scarcity: without an externally imposed threat, there are precious few reasons that revolutionary, seditious, cantankerous and/or bored magic users could not provide ye olde rabble with the things they need and thus obviate the whole "10% of the people control the other 90%" model that's all too familiar. You wanna work through logical implications, figure out how inherent power would destroy manipulative power. Or think up a fun campaign where evil noblemen wizards try to stop egalitarian Communard wizards from destroying the basis of their power; personally I'd play that [excrement] in a heartbeat.

NichG
2014-02-05, 04:11 AM
I wouldn't say that this is really post-Tippyverse in particular, and I don't really see the benefit in tying these ideas to that idea.

If you really want to focus on post-Tippyverse, I'd say leave the cosmology alone and just posit 'the Tippyverse existed, then magic broke - what happens next?' That alone forms an interesting thought experiment without creating arguments about whether your reasons for why magic broke make sense or are just repeating Fall of Netheril or whatever.

It also helps to make things concrete and ask 'what do people who depended on these high-magic devices for survival and control, who are all very smart people, do when things break?'. Right now what you've written has kind of been focused on the idea of very macro-scale things 'theres a problem, it gets worse, and the end-state is a nonfunctional campaign setting where everything is dead/destroyed/etc'.

Instead, I think it'd be interesting to ask 'given an impossibly difficult situation (collapse of the core engines of an entire society) combined with a population of what are essentially all super-geniuses (wish-enhanced stats, all the other stat laddering tricks), what kinds of solutions do they try?' I think it does a disservice to the idea that basically the entire population just blindly pushes on ahead - sure, you can have worlds where that happened, but they're not really interesting - its been done before and it also feels more like a rant against Tippy rather than an actual setting.

So, for example - magic ends, what do the wizards do next? The collective population has a huge problem - they've relied on magic for food and livelyhood, so the first month is going to be brutal. If the wizards can maintain political control as leaders will be determined by the degree to which they can answer that impending wave of starvation. If they fail, then there will be a lot of anarchy as people try to climb their way to the top. So feeding the population is priority #1 - or at least creating a situation where there is a set of people you can feed, even if its much fewer than there were before.

If undeath still works and can be transferred by 'natural' means rather than Animate Dead/etc, then you'll see a bunch of necropolises spring up. The Lands of the Eternally Hungry, those who fled starvation into the hands of a hunger that can never be answered. Other solutions may be to cull the population in wars or lotteries and revert to cannibalism. Another option would be to search for any fading portals to the Astral, since those who reside there would not need food or drink. Whatever nature preserves, island paradises, etc that the Tippyverse wizards maintained or created become highly strategically important, as they represent sources of not only growing food but seeds that can be used for future plantings.

If trolls retain their regeneration, then they and other regenerating creatures might be conscripted to 'meal duty' where they must offer a certain portion of their flesh to feed the starving masses - of course, this is highly unstable since who wants to be losing an arm every day to feed some guy who couldn't kill you in a million years, so I'd guess the first order of business would be to basically lobotomize as many of them as possible to act as cattle, to incentivize their 'service' by making them first-class citizens, or even ending up with trolls and the like as leaders, personally feeding small warbands on their own flesh, and retaining their loyalty because the alternative is starvation.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-05, 04:16 AM
Interesting ideas. You might want to add a note near the beginning of the OP clarifying that this is a separate setting framework based on the Tippyverse rather than an analysis of the Tippyverse itself.

LordBlades
2014-02-05, 04:25 AM
With common sense or fluff applied, the chances of it happening are significantly reduced.

Just curious, what exactly about the Tippyverse do you not consider 'common sense'?

Drachasor
2014-02-05, 05:18 AM
Another way you could go: Since Tippy said in another thread that TV is under constant threat of destruction by outside forces, it is pretty simple to propose that one or more of those threats succeeded. Appropriately enough, you end up with a pretty standard D&D world after enough time has passed where there was an ancient "all-powerful" civilization that got destroyed.

Gemini476
2014-02-05, 05:41 AM
I wouldn't say that this is really post-Tippyverse in particular, and I don't really see the benefit in tying these ideas to that idea.

If you really want to focus on post-Tippyverse, I'd say leave the cosmology alone and just posit 'the Tippyverse existed, then magic broke - what happens next?' That alone forms an interesting thought experiment without creating arguments about whether your reasons for why magic broke make sense or are just repeating Fall of Netheril or whatever.

It also helps to make things concrete and ask 'what do people who depended on these high-magic devices for survival and control, who are all very smart people, do when things break?'. Right now what you've written has kind of been focused on the idea of very macro-scale things 'theres a problem, it gets worse, and the end-state is a nonfunctional campaign setting where everything is dead/destroyed/etc'.

Instead, I think it'd be interesting to ask 'given an impossibly difficult situation (collapse of the core engines of an entire society) combined with a population of what are essentially all super-geniuses (wish-enhanced stats, all the other stat laddering tricks), what kinds of solutions do they try?' I think it does a disservice to the idea that basically the entire population just blindly pushes on ahead - sure, you can have worlds where that happened, but they're not really interesting - its been done before and it also feels more like a rant against Tippy rather than an actual setting.

So, for example - magic ends, what do the wizards do next? The collective population has a huge problem - they've relied on magic for food and livelyhood, so the first month is going to be brutal. If the wizards can maintain political control as leaders will be determined by the degree to which they can answer that impending wave of starvation. If they fail, then there will be a lot of anarchy as people try to climb their way to the top. So feeding the population is priority #1 - or at least creating a situation where there is a set of people you can feed, even if its much fewer than there were before.

If undeath still works and can be transferred by 'natural' means rather than Animate Dead/etc, then you'll see a bunch of necropolises spring up. The Lands of the Eternally Hungry, those who fled starvation into the hands of a hunger that can never be answered. Other solutions may be to cull the population in wars or lotteries and revert to cannibalism. Another option would be to search for any fading portals to the Astral, since those who reside there would not need food or drink. Whatever nature preserves, island paradises, etc that the Tippyverse wizards maintained or created become highly strategically important, as they represent sources of not only growing food but seeds that can be used for future plantings.

If trolls retain their regeneration, then they and other regenerating creatures might be conscripted to 'meal duty' where they must offer a certain portion of their flesh to feed the starving masses - of course, this is highly unstable since who wants to be losing an arm every day to feed some guy who couldn't kill you in a million years, so I'd guess the first order of business would be to basically lobotomize as many of them as possible to act as cattle, to incentivize their 'service' by making them first-class citizens, or even ending up with trolls and the like as leaders, personally feeding small warbands on their own flesh, and retaining their loyalty because the alternative is starvation.

Well, the most sure-fire way I can think of to kill the Tippyverse is to Pandorym's (the Elder Evil) Sign to Overwhelming. The sudden loss of Conjuration(Calling, Teleportation, Summoning) effects would be devastating, although the Cities could survive if they have sufficient numbers of Create Food and Water traps.
If you do that then the only way to teleport would be Wish and some specific spells (Master Earth, mostly.) Suddenly the Cities no longer have access to the Teleportation Circle Network! They don't need to worry about sudden mass invasions, sure, but now they're cut off from the rest of the world (as well as any farms and mines that existed outside the city, not to mention planes.)

Even tracking down Pandorym itself gets difficult, since no divination spells that rely on planar contact work and getting to the location needs to be done by foot or Overland Flight.

It's a bit like one of the various postapocalypric movies out there. Just toss in a few themes about how man's reliance on magic caused their fall, some likeness to the Irish Potato Famine, maybe some things about how Man is the Real Monster and cities descending into anarchy due to the loss of non-NutriGruel® foods and luxury goods.

Not to mention that the cities ruled by wizards Astral Projecting from private demiplanes have lost their rulers.

Sir Chuckles
2014-02-05, 05:51 AM
Another way you could go: Since Tippy said in another thread that TV is under constant threat of destruction by outside forces, it is pretty simple to propose that one or more of those threats succeeded. Appropriately enough, you end up with a pretty standard D&D world after enough time has passed where there was an ancient "all-powerful" civilization that got destroyed.

So could it be just about said that the Tippyverse is on a cycle much in the way that other civilizations could be seen?
It peaks, is destroyed and seen as mystical, but one day a similar world is built on top of the ruins that were built on it's ruins.

How one Tippyverse "season" affects another would be entirely based on what Elder Evil, Conspiring Rebels, New-Ascended and Actually Active Deity, or whomever/whatever ended the previous season.

Hmmm...and Aboleths have racial memory...

NichG
2014-02-05, 06:56 AM
Well, the most sure-fire way I can think of to kill the Tippyverse is to Pandorym's (the Elder Evil) Sign to Overwhelming. The sudden loss of Conjuration(Calling, Teleportation, Summoning) effects would be devastating, although the Cities could survive if they have sufficient numbers of Create Food and Water traps.
If you do that then the only way to teleport would be Wish and some specific spells (Master Earth, mostly.) Suddenly the Cities no longer have access to the Teleportation Circle Network! They don't need to worry about sudden mass invasions, sure, but now they're cut off from the rest of the world (as well as any farms and mines that existed outside the city, not to mention planes.)

Certainly this would be a way to create that sort of scenario. I guess the main point of my post though was to say, lets not worry so much about 'how' it breaks - its easy to go round and round in circles arguing about whether any one particular threat could be stopped or whether there are RAW methods to avoid the consequences of the result (like using Master Earth or Wish to teleport after Pandorym's sign - Resetting Trap of Wish and we're back where we started).

Rather, I think the more fruitful conversation lies in the direction of 'for whatever reason, these elements of the Tippyverse went away and there's no way to bring them back - what happens next, under the same sort of assumptions that built the Tippyverse - that individuals are extremely intelligent and skilled, and take the best actions open to them in the given situation'. Basically, the same way the Tippyverse is built on 'what is the closest thing to utopia I can build in RAW?', now the question becomes 'what is the most viable way to survive in RAW after the fall of said utopia, where X elements are removed from play'.

Another way to put it would be, the game system changes from D&D to d20 Modern with no FX stuff mid-Tippyverse - you were a god-wizard, what do you do now?