Add a new line to the Old List- Tier Discussion

[Haldir]

I wish to make an addendum to the old lists of class tiers, adding this to the T3 lists of characters. Any comments welcome.

Ranger- Dragon Magazine Variants/Various Substitutions

Dragon 336, pg 105 introduced the Mystic Ranger variant, which gains spellcasting levels much earlier and introduces 5th level spells to the class, and expands the classes spell list, all in exchange for the useless Animal Companion.

For best results, combine with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor, pg.36) which allows Paladin and Ranger characters of 4th level to prepare Wizard spells from a spellbook, so long as you have the requisite intelligence score.

Combine with Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage, pg.32) to apply your Favored Enemy bonuses toward the most dangerous enemies in the game.

Dragon 326, pg.97 then introduces the Strongarm Combat Style, netting Power Attack, Improved Sunder, and Great Cleave feats, a vast improvement on the standard offerings, if building melee. Else the archery feats can still serve a Mystic Ranger well, especially when combined with Zen Archery and all the amazing Wizard buffs they now have access too. -Haldir

Cons: He’s MAD! MAD I tell you! Wizard spells are intelligence based, while bonus spells and regular spells are Wisdom based, and if you mean to do any fighting with that fancy BAB of yours, you’ll be lacking in some physical stats. The Mystic Ranger only learns up to fifth level spells, so they’ll never truly break the game. Additionally, Sword of the Arcane Order is unclear whether the wizard spells are arcane or divine spells, requiring DM fiat to settle, and this is almost never desirable. Your spellbook and spells that are loaded into it may require Spellcraft checks and/or access to Wizard levels, also a bit of a pickle, though not insurmountable. -Haldir

Pros: Half of the best spell list in the game, and a decent amount of uses per day. Other Tier 3 classes might get more spells of a higher level, almost none of them will get Wizard versatility as early as the Mystic Ranger.

Though Sword of the Arcane Order spells might be either Divine or Arcane, either way is actually great:

If the spells cast are divine, they qualify for Divine Meta Magic, and taking a class with Turn Undead such as Cleric or divine spellcasting PrCs will allow your Ranger slots to DMM Wizard spells, retaining a spell level under 5 but potentially keeping them useful at later levels. Consider Mystic Ranger 10/Cleric1/Any Fullcasting Divine Prestige class for 5th level spells off of both the Cleric and Wizard list, all malleable with DMM. Best of all, bonus spells for both spellcasting classes gear off of Wisdom, reducing MAD as you should have plenty of spellslots for Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, and Righteous Might. However, this may call for an increase in Charisma for additional uses of Turn Undead, but its totally worth it.

This goes just as well if the spells are arcane, as suddenly a bevy of useful prestige classes, feats and abilities open up to you. Consider Mystic Ranger 10/Wizard1/Any Fullcasting Arcane Prestige Class with the Dimensional Jaunt feat (Complete Mage, pg 41). For additional gishy-goodness consider Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage, pg 50). Anything that will allow you to use metamagic with your huge array of daily spells, such as Incantrix, Arcane Thesis, or metamagic rods are going to make your spells a force to be reckoned with.

Essentially, no matter how you go with the Mystic Ranger + SotAO, you can multi-class/prestige class into 1-5 levels of Wizard spellcasting, and still have room in your build for -another- 10 caster levels, offering magical versatility you will not find in any other T3 class. -Haldir

The skills [For Sublime Chord] might be a bit tricky, and you would need SotAO also — assuming the spells you get from this are arcane (The feat is silent on this) [but this nets you 9th level spontaneous arcane spellcasting.]

You can get into a number of other PrCs. Seeker of the Misty Isle is quite good for grabbing spells from the Travel and Magic domains, it's skills are quite good too. -nedz

[Sith_Happens]

I don't think there's actually an updated version of the list that someone maintains.

[Sir Chuckles]

I don't think there's actually an updated version of the list that someone maintains.

I vote that there should be, specifically for Variants. I love Variants.

Purely for the mental exercise, really. All the different fiddly Fighter changes could be a tier list in and of itself (Which would be fun).

[nedz]

Mystic Ranger is generally regarded as T3 from levels 1 to about 10 falling to T4 thereafter. The problem is basically that it's spell progression stops and it becomes essentially a half caster.

[Gemini476]

Mystic Ranger is generally regarded as T3 from levels 1 to about 10 falling to T4 thereafter. The problem is basically that it's spell progression stops and it becomes essentially a half caster.

Isn't Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger Tier 1 for levels 1-10?

I mean, this is a case where having a separate listing for a variant and a variant+feat is justified. The SotAO MR is basically a Lightning Warrior.


Out of interest, how good would people say that the Wild Monk is? It's a Monk with Wikldshaping, iirc. I think it was in the same issue as the Mystic Ranger.

[HammeredWharf]

Wild Monk is probably T3. Wild Shape is very versatile by itself, can be optimized easily via Frozen/Dragon Wild Shape and lets you get some neat feats and PRCs.

[Haldir]

It prestiges better than Duskblade and gets comparable spells from a better list for half the levels invested, and all the spells can be metamagicked very optimally, I see no reason why we'd drop it to T4 past 10. It's still T3, multiclassing simply gets you a better T3, possibly the best T3 you can be.

It is at least as strong as wildshape ranger, thanks to polymorph.

[nedz]

It prestiges better than Duskblade and gets comparable spells from a better list for half the levels invested, and all the spells can be metamagicked very optimally, I see no reason why we'd drop it to T4 past 10. It's still T3, multiclassing simply gets you a better T3, possibly the best T3 you can be.

Because at level 20 you have 5th level spells. I don't think it goes off a cliff at level 10, it just slides down to T4.
The 5th level spells are very limited too since they get no SpC support, which is a big deal for Rangers.

[Gemini476]

It prestiges better than Duskblade and gets comparable spells from a better list for half the levels invested, and all the spells can be metamagicked very optimally, I see no reason why we'd drop it to T4 past 10. It's still T3, multiclassing simply gets you a better T3, possibly the best T3 you can be.

I forget, but doesn't it qualify for that Bard PrC that gives 9th level spells? It might need a bard dip, but yeah.

[nedz]

This one I presume:

Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane p60)
Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks , Listen 13 ranks , Perform 10 ranks , Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks , Spellcraft 6 ranks
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: Bardic music ability.

The skills might be a bit tricky, and you would need SotAO also — assuming the spells you get from this are arcane (The feat is silent on this)

You can get into a number of other PrCs. Seeker of the Misty Isle is quite good for grabbing spells from the Travel and Magic domains, it's skills are quite good too.

[OldTrees1]

I forget, but doesn't it qualify for that Bard PrC that gives 9th level spells? It might need a bard dip, but yeah.

I recently saw a Hellbred(knows Druidic) Bard 1 / Mystic Ranger 9 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9 build

[Haldir]

Because at level 20 you have 5th level spells. I don't think it goes off a cliff at level 10, it just slides down to T4.
The 5th level spells are very limited too since they get no SpC support, which is a big deal for Rangers.

Again, I'm going to reference all of the other T3 classes, which do not get much higher spellcasting, and if they do it comes from a supremely limited list.

Using Metamagic, Prestige classes, and good feats will keep any Mystic Ranger capable of performing on par with Bards or Duskblades throughout the full 20 levels.

Teleport, Polymorph, Flight, Summons, Metamagick'd buff spells, possibly Persisted, Force Effects, Dispel Magic, Fell Draining Split Repeating Ray Cheese, Lesser Planar Binding, it goes on and on and on. Because it remains decently gishy- granting spells per day and full BAB as you progress in it, even taking the full 20 levels will keep you able to do pretty much all things (attack, support, utility) adequately, which is one of the benchmarks for T3.

You don't really need any higher than 5th level spells to be a solid T3. Since spells start to get broken around that level, the Mystic Ranger hits the Goldilocks Zone of T3, in my opinion, and never need consider itself T4 at any point so long as you're building to utilize your spellpower.

As for the Sublime Chord, you would only qualify if your DM rules that Wizard spells cast from Ranger slots count as arcane spells. The feat is called "Sword of the Arcane Order" but it is not explicit. If it were, a bard dip and Sublime Chord would be the most powerful Mystic Ranger progression, possibly pushing it into T2 territory.

[Gemini476]

As for the Sublime Chord, you would only qualify if your DM rules that Wizard spells cast from Ranger slots count as arcane spells. The feat is called "Sword of the Arcane Order" but it is not explicit. If it were, a bard dip and Sublime Chord would be the most powerful Mystic Ranger progression, possibly pushing it into T2 territory.

Man, that's a real lose/lose scenario for the GM. Do you let them count as arcane spells and let the player get access to Sublime Chord, or you let them count as Divine and give the player access to Divine Metamagic and whatever armor they feel like grabbing.

[nedz]

Again, I'm going to reference all of the other T3 classes, which do not get much higher spellcasting, and if they do it comes from a supremely limited list.
Most of the other T3s can get 9ths, and it's quite easy to expand their spell lists.


As for the Sublime Chord, you would only qualify if your DM rules that Wizard spells cast from Ranger slots count as arcane spells. The feat is called "Sword of the Arcane Order" but it is not explicit. If it were, a bard dip and Sublime Chord would be the most powerful Mystic Ranger progression, possibly pushing it into T2 territory.

I said exactly this.

[Haldir]

It actually sort of balances out, as the spellcasting progression is going to be MAD no matter how you build. I daresay that splitting any T1 build 50/50 with Mystic Ranger is going to allow you to use Clerics and Wizards in level 20 games without them getting above T3, all while maintaining the flavor of a primary spellcaster, but with double the number of 5th level spells instead of the borked 9th level spells.

[Haldir]

Most of the other T3s can get 9ths, and it's quite easy to expand their spell lists.

Most of them don't, actually, just the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, and a certain Bard build most of us agree the Mystic Ranger would fit in nicely. Another thing occurs to me, since neither of these classes are prepared casters, neither of them can utilize metamagic quite as efficiently as Mystic Ranger either.

Most of the T3's have a limited spelllist (requiring feats and classes to expand, not necessarily cheap, at least, not as cheap as having a spellbook), an alternative casting mechanic, or are ToB initiators. Mystic Ranger is the only class in the T3 category that grants access to Int-based casting drawn from the Wizards awesome list.

-Edited first post to reflect nedz comments-