Making a 15th-level fighter useful with gear?

[Jon_Dahl]

I'd like to create a simple, Core-only sword 'n board fighter. His level will be 15 and he will have 200.000 gp worth of gear. There will be two other characters, both of the 15th level, and they will - most likely - be optimized casters.

I'd like to buy gear for my fighter that would make him universally useful either in combat or out of combat.

My selection would be a crystal ball with true seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#crystalBall). That would be something that no other character could compete with their spells and class abilities, and it would be highly useful.

[Invader]

You'd gimp yourself incredibly if you spent almost half your wealth on a 3rd lvl spell effect that the two casters in your party would be able to do anyway.

Increase your action economy, short range tactical teleportation, fkight, freedom of movement, and blindblank should probably be your main focus.

[Drachasor]

I don't think you can afford to spend 40% of your wealth on an item like that. You won't be very useful if you do that. A mundane more than a caster really needs to use magic items to stay relevant, and while a True Seeing Crystal Ball is useful, it isn't THAT useful (remember, targets get a save). It just costs too much money at your level.

Core Only is especially tough, since there aren't very many ways to boost up the crappy class that is a fighter. Core-only really makes casters even better than mundanes. I'd initially lean towards an archer build.

[Spore]

I'd like to create a simple, Core-only sword 'n board fighter. His level will be 15 and he will have 200.000 gp worth of gear. There will be two other characters, both of the 15th level, and they will - most likely - be optimized casters.

This is like trying to compete in a motorcycle race. With an bike, and one leg brokena and the other one tied behind your back.

If you lack a way to force enemies to attack you you will likely be ignored. You also miss a lot (TWF with the shield) OR don't do enough damage and lack the skill ranks to do anything other than fighting.

No amount of magical items - aside from artifacts perhaps - could help you make this character work. No really, if you're adamant about that character, ask your DM for an artifact type item. Other than that I would heavily invest in potions and accelerate the drinking thereof.

Fighters are bruisers. If you do not like being that, you should probably refrain from playing a fighter and play something useful different instead of padding a weak class with items. Even if you're new to D&D you don't have to set up your party with a Cleric a Fighter a Rogue and a Wizard.

[Drachasor]

Yeah, it overlooked the fact the OP chose a sword-and-board fighter, which is definitely one of the very worst core-only options.

[Ivanhoe]

Basically agreeing to the previous comments.
The crystal ball is not a good idea, you scry worse than the casters and have true seeing at will but what else?

Your niche, or value added for the two casters can be something like damage dealer and bodyguard. You are a group, so expect some support from them.

For this, max AC first and get a miss chance,.
Say, take a mithral full plate (allowing up to +3 DEX bonus) and large shield, +1 each (the rest of the enhancements up to +5 comes from low-level caster buffs). So that gives your armour bonus +13 and shield bonus +7, total +20 to AC (+23 with DEX, or 33 without any further typical tricks like feat, deflection, natural, armour spike defending untyped bonuses. AC 50 basically means most opponents only hit you on a "1").
Then, get a ring of blinking. Must have item for any high-level melee guy.

For offense, get improved critical and a scimitar +1, holy (if the group combats evil, or vice-versa). The rest of the enhancements up to +5 again come from the casters.
Also max STR, and heck, even get the weapon specialisation route.
Boots of haste are also nice (have the casters quicken dimension door you next to foes to get more full attack; you also might consider making a build with horizon walker prestige class or assassin to get better mobility with access to dimension door effect; blink already helps a lot, though).

Maybe you can also max your ride skill, take the mounted combat feats, and have a powerful mount summoned/called by the casters (or ride the Animal Companion of the druid, in case that is one of the casters). Spirited charge on a T-Rex AC or monster summoned VIII celestial triceratops with spirited charge is certainly fun and awesome besides (who cares who made the mount possible in the first place...)! Check out the recent OOTS how Belkar does it :smallcool:

Sounds like being dependent on the casters? Yup, sword and board at high level with to maxed casters at your side in core can mean a lot of goodwill from the caster players...:smallwink:
But with some good items to improve your combat ability you are likely to exceed any beatstick ally that the casters can come up with, making your character useful in the group.:smallsmile:

[Drachasor]

I'd have one of the casters Polymorph Any Object you into a better form. Ideally get it so they can do it at most once per week. Then get a Ring of Counterpsells with Greater Dispel Magic in it. The caster will have to replenish that too when it gets used up.

This will help a lot.

[Ivanhoe]

I'd have one of the casters Polymorph Any Object you into a better form. Ideally get it so they can do it at most once per week. Then get a Ring of Counterpsells with Greater Dispel Magic in it. The caster will have to replenish that too when it gets used up.

This will help a lot.

Yes, that would really help a lot. Say, a stone giant form (probably the OP would like to havbe a humanoid-like form to do the classic "sword&board"). Since armour and shield and weapon do not resize, you'd need to have (more expensive) large version of it all, but certainly doable.
You could even focus more on CON and mental stats this way, since you get the good STR and DEX of the stone giant.

[WesleyVos]

If it wasn't core-only, I'd suggest Martial Study and Martial Stance feats from Tome of Battle. Use them to qualify for and get Iron Guard's Glare, which actually makes you useful as a tank - you can require enemies to attack you or suffer a -4 on their attacks. See if your DM will allow that.

If not, and you really want to do a sword-and-board fighter, core-only...well, without some serious support from the casters, I'd say you're mostly up a creek without a paddle. Your damage is going to be negligible, and if enemies aren't forced to attack you, your high AC will do nothing for you as they can just bypass you. Your job will be to be the casters' bodyguard, and you can't do that if the enemies don't attack you.

[Telonius]

While the item selection (crystal ball) might not be all that great, I think the general reason you're trying for it is pretty sound. You want to be useful in and out of combat, and you have 200k worth of gold to outfit yourself with magical doodads.

Sword and Board is a notoriously bad strategy. But if you're set on it, I wouldn't put too much into the shield's enhancement bonus. +1 Animated, maybe? Only 9,000gp. +1 Light Fortification Mithral Fullplate would be 14,500. If you want to add anything else, remember to try to split the bonus between armor and shield, since enhancement goes up in price quickly. For a weapon, since your shield is animated, you can use a two-hander. (Which is very good news). +1 Holy Ghost Touch covers a lot of what you'll usually meet in most campaigns (evil things) as well as stuff that give fighters the most headaches (incorporeal enemies). It costs 32,000. Throw in a Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000), Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), and Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8,000), and you're looking at 91,000 for a basic kit that covers what you'd typically want. Figure another 9,000 for your golf bag (ranged weapon, Cold Iron melee, silver melee), Handy Haversack/Bag of Holding, mundane equipment, and various emergency potions. That leaves you with 100,000gp to play around with.

For the rest of the equipment, I'd suggest going with a "Bard"-ish philosophy: make your teammates better. Get magic items (and the means to use them) that will free up their spells for combat or other things. Stuff like Death Ward, or Resist Energy, or Magic Circle. Custom magic items would be what you're looking for here. There are a few sneaky ways to lower the costs (usable only by alignment: yours, requires 10 ranks in a skill you have). These options are open to the casters as well, but you'll be doing it so they don't have to. Meaning: you're being useful.

I'd load up on Thunderstones and Tanglefoot bags as well. They're a cheap way for a melee class to deal status effects. And of course, there's the ever-popular Dust of Sneezing and Choking.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To make a Fighter useful in a party of optimized casters, you'll want at least one of everything from this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). You can also help close the gap with Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). Instead of a Crystal Ball get a Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense).

Unfortunately, most of the above will not be available in a Core-only game. If you want to play a strong melee combatant, I'd recommend making a Druid. If you want to stick to a non-caster melee, you should look up the Horizon Tripper.

[Drachasor]

Sword and Board is a notoriously bad strategy. But if you're set on it, I wouldn't put too much into the shield's enhancement bonus. +1 Animated, maybe?

Most people mean longsword and shield by "sword and board". Using an Animated Shield is fine with a greatsword or other two-handed weapon or being a hydra or whatever.


To make a Fighter useful in a party of optimized casters, you'll want at least one of everything from this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851). You can also help close the gap with Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). Instead of a Crystal Ball get a Third Eye: Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense).

Unfortunately, most of the above will not be available in a Core-only game. If you want to play a strong melee combatant, I'd recommend making a Druid. If you want to stick to a non-caster melee, you should look up the Horizon Tripper.

Yeah, that's the problem with Core-only. It makes non-casters even worse. Druids are definitely one of the best melee combatants in or out of Core.

[Urpriest]

I'd like to create a simple, Core-only sword 'n board fighter. His level will be 15 and he will have 200.000 gp worth of gear. There will be two other characters, both of the 15th level, and they will - most likely - be optimized casters.

I'd like to buy gear for my fighter that would make him universally useful either in combat or out of combat.

My selection would be a crystal ball with true seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#crystalBall). That would be something that no other character could compete with their spells and class abilities, and it would be highly useful.

If the other players are optimizing and you are refusing to, then I presume you guys are planning to do a game where the characters intentionally have dramatically different levels of power, in order to tell a particular sort of story?

If so, what sort of story are you planning on telling? What kind of narrative role should we be optimizing your capabilities towards?

[ericgrau]

At that level you can get flight pretty easily. And decent damage and defense of course. If your dex is good (without sacrificing str or con) you can get celestial armor and get two at once. A dip for listen (DC 20 to find the square of an invisible foe that attacks or casts) and blind fight are pretty helpful too. For misc utility look at all the wondrous items costing under 1,000 gp and pick up multiple. Not 80,000 gp. Pick up some 1st and 2nd level potions too. Enlarge person, protection from evil, spider climb and invisibility for example. Maybe a little fly for the times you run out of uses on your flight item. I've had a fighter who had an item for everything, and at 15th level you have the WBL to do it.

In core only you might consider going to fighter 8 and then switching to dragon disciple. Besides nice stats for a harder hitting melee, better defense and better saves, you get wand access. You can get a wand of see invisibility and keep recasting it in dungeons so it's always up (rather than wasting a turn on it later). Invisibility and alter self (swim, climb or AC forms) are good too.

[Telonius]

Most people mean longsword and shield by "sword and board". Using an Animated Shield is fine with a greatsword or other two-handed weapon or being a hydra or whatever.



It's just as useful to a longsword; you can still wield a one-handed weapon in two hands and get the 2 to 1 bonus from Power Attack. You'd be giving up an average of 2.5 damage per hit, versus a Greatsword (1d8 vs 2d6), but it does work.

[Dimers]

A command word item to allow you to Polymorph at will would be just over 50000 gp ... lots of noncombat utility in that, and not bad for combat, either.

[Gemini476]

Yes, that would really help a lot. Say, a stone giant form (probably the OP would like to havbe a humanoid-like form to do the classic "sword&board"). Since armour and shield and weapon do not resize, you'd need to have (more expensive) large version of it all, but certainly doable.
You could even focus more on CON and mental stats this way, since you get the good STR and DEX of the stone giant.
A Fire Giant gives you 31 Strength, 9 Dexterity, 21 Constitution, and 10 Intelligence.
A Stone Giant gives 27 Strength, 15 Dexterity, 19 Constitution, 10 Intelligence.
A Storm Giant has 19HD and gives 39 Strength, 14 Dexterity, 23 Constitution, and 16 Intelligence.
You also get some rock-throwing abilities with the first two and water-breathing with the last one, and the Fire and Earth subtypes for the Fire Giant and Stone Giant, respectively. The Storm Giant is just Huge.

Polymorph Any Object:
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class (mammals) +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2

That's a +9-+11 on the duration factor (depending on intelligence and whether or not small human->big human is related). Or a Permanent duration.
Getting an NPC to cast an 8th level spell on you is 1200gp, and if it's CL 19 that's 1520gp. You'll find the casters in Metropolises (Cities with population 25k+) by RAW, if you wonder where to find one.

That's before magic items, by the way.
A Large longsword costs 30gp and a Huge one costs who knows how much. Probably 60gp. They do 2d6 and 3d6 damage, respectively.

[Jon_Dahl]

While the item selection (crystal ball) might not be all that great, I think the general reason you're trying for it is pretty sound. You want to be useful in and out of combat, and you have 200k worth of gold to outfit yourself with magical doodads.

Sword and Board is a notoriously bad strategy. But if you're set on it, I wouldn't put too much into the shield's enhancement bonus. +1 Animated, maybe? Only 9,000gp. +1 Light Fortification Mithral Fullplate would be 14,500. If you want to add anything else, remember to try to split the bonus between armor and shield, since enhancement goes up in price quickly. For a weapon, since your shield is animated, you can use a two-hander. (Which is very good news). +1 Holy Ghost Touch covers a lot of what you'll usually meet in most campaigns (evil things) as well as stuff that give fighters the most headaches (incorporeal enemies). It costs 32,000. Throw in a Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000), Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), and Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8,000), and you're looking at 91,000 for a basic kit that covers what you'd typically want. Figure another 9,000 for your golf bag (ranged weapon, Cold Iron melee, silver melee), Handy Haversack/Bag of Holding, mundane equipment, and various emergency potions. That leaves you with 100,000gp to play around with.

For the rest of the equipment, I'd suggest going with a "Bard"-ish philosophy: make your teammates better. Get magic items (and the means to use them) that will free up their spells for combat or other things. Stuff like Death Ward, or Resist Energy, or Magic Circle. Custom magic items would be what you're looking for here. There are a few sneaky ways to lower the costs (usable only by alignment: yours, requires 10 ranks in a skill you have). These options are open to the casters as well, but you'll be doing it so they don't have to. Meaning: you're being useful.

I'd load up on Thunderstones and Tanglefoot bags as well. They're a cheap way for a melee class to deal status effects. And of course, there's the ever-popular Dust of Sneezing and Choking.

This was thought-out and thorough answer, thank you!
When you said "These options are open to the casters as well, but you'll be doing it so they don't have to", I had an idea: Gem of Seeing.
The casters are able to cast True Sight, but they wouldn't have use a spell slot for it - ever! And no one can cast it spontaneously.
Good/bad/meh?

[ericgrau]

Still way too expensive. I'd spend at most 1/4th of your WBL on utility, if not 1/8th. And I'd never get a single powerful item. I'd get at minimum a dozen little items, if not 50. Most of your money should go to: Boots of speed, +4 belt of strength, +3 cloak of resistance, +1 holy weapon, +4 armor (or celestial armor), +4 shield (or +2 animated shield), +2 ring of protection, +2 amulet of natural armor, dusty rose prism ion stone. As thorough as that may seem, it still leaves well over 50,000 gp. You could easily add something to your weapon like spell storing. Don't get situational things like ghost touch as they are useless the other 95% of the time. Or AC, or +2 gloves of dexterity.

In general don't blow almost all your effectiveness 95% of the time be partially effective 1% of the time with something like true seeing. Second, in D&D costs scale quadratically. Get as many cheap items as you can without overlapping before upping any of them to a more expensive item.

Besides a flight item, some of my favorites include dust of disappearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofDisappearance), marvelous pigments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments), the unguent of timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness), feather token tree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree), sovereign glue, hat of disguise, hand of the mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handoftheMage) and maybe dust of appearance, among 50 others. Dust of disappearance is an instant win for the party, get 3-4 for tough fights.

A rich commoner who puts some thought in it can have 10 times the utility of a wizard who puts little thought into it. It's more about the reality of how little or how much players plan ahead than the theoretical limits of what a class is capable of.