Blackwing's exposure to the rift

[Kish]

...did not destroy him or cause anyone to forget about him. Can we get rid of that particular epileptic tree now?

(Aw, who am I kidding? Years of "How did Haley avoid being affected by the rift's effect on Blackwing," ahoy.)

[Shale]

Obviously the effect was reversed when the order looked through Girard's rift!

[Chantelune]

Obviously, it's because Haley is the half deva secret daughter of Girard.

/flee :smallbiggrin:

[ImperatorV]

Obviously, it's because Haley is the half deva secret daughter of Girard.

/flee :smallbiggrin:

I thought we established that Haley was Trigak's daughter and therefore the Snarl's granddaughter?

[Gift Jeraff]

V remembered Blackwing when s/he was near Soon's Rift.

Haley remembered Blackwing shortly after being near Girard's Rift.

The sole purpose of the rifts is to restore people's memory of Blackwing. That's it. All that stuff with the Snarl and other world is just for show.

[David Argall]

...did not destroy him or cause anyone to forget about him. Can we get rid of that particular epileptic tree now?

(Aw, who am I kidding? Years of "How did Haley avoid being affected by the rift's effect on Blackwing," ahoy.)
Frankly, it looks more like "it seemed like a good idea at the time". It was a good gag to go from V ignoring Blackwing to everybody but V ignoring Blackwing, but it seems it may be getting in the way of the plot and so we switch to saying they were just joking [which raises a number of questions].

[Porthos]

...did not destroy him or cause anyone to forget about him. Can we get rid of that particular epileptic tree now?

Hey, I cop to getting that one wrong. :smallredface: Well, I'm not sure if I was in that exact camp you describe, as I had doubts as to what exactly was going on. But, eh, close enough.

So, pack your cynicism away for once, Kish. :smalltongue:

...

Mind, as I said in the discussion thread, I still think it wasn't handled as well as it could have been, but in the grand scheme of the comic it ain't a big deal at all.

[Sir_Leorik]

...did not destroy him or cause anyone to forget about him. Can we get rid of that particular epileptic tree now?

(Aw, who am I kidding? Years of "How did Haley avoid being affected by the rift's effect on Blackwing," ahoy.)

Sadly this epileptic tree will continue to shake for years. We can call upon the might of the Dwarven Homelands' mightiest armies, to hunt it down, chop it down, cut it into little pieces, and sell those pieces to Ikea, and yet it's ghost will still haunt this Forum. Woe unto us, who are unable to seek respite from the awful shaking of this epileptic tree, shaking its slander about Blackwing!
:smalltongue:

[Porthos]

Sadly this epileptic tree will continue to shake for years. We can call upon the might of the Dwarven Homelands' mightiest armies, to hunt it down, chop it down, cut it into little pieces, and sell those pieces to Ikea, and yet it's ghost will still haunt this Forum. Woe unto us, who are unable to seek respite from the awful shaking of this epileptic tree, shaking its slander about Blackwing!
:smalltongue:

I think you're wrong, personally. Mostly because you are forgetting the Law of Conservation of Energy Epileptic Trees. That is: When one tree is felled, another must arise in its place.

In this case, the Blackwing tree was mercilessly cut down. Only to see the "OMG, is Julio dying?" tree to rise in its place. :smalltongue:

Another way to think about it is all that speculation energy has to go somewhere. Thankfully The Giant provided an immediate outlet for it. Who knows what the consequences would have been had he hadn't. :smalleek: :smalleek:

[Kish]

Hey, I cop to getting that one wrong. :smallredface: Well, I'm not sure if I was in that exact camp you describe, as I had doubts as to what exactly was going on. But, eh, close enough.

So, pack your cynicism away for once, Kish. :smalltongue:
Alas, Master Fitz-Empress, if I expected you to be the most stubborn about letting go of debunked ideas of anyone on this forum, I would have no need to be cynical.

(Or to put it another way, if "Blackwing got enchanted/destroyed by the rift" actually leaves the forum's memepool at this point, I will be the one saying "I guess I got that one wrong.")

[The Pilgrim]

Actually, Blackwing's exposure to the Rift has caused him...

... to change from a character everyone forgot about and whose presence was denied atmost at all times by the OOTS-verse...

... to a character whose presence is recognized all-time.

Weird, uh?

At first the other members of OOTS had difficulties acknowledging his presence. That was due to the transitional, adaption period of the Universe to the new situation. Sort of an inverse Ripple Effect (see Back to the Future if you don't get the reference).

Now that the transition has ended, Blackwing's presence is fully acknowledged by everyone at all times.

(Yes, I'm just feeding the beast. I'm bored and I need the money)

[Porthos]

Alas, Master Fitz-Empress, if I expected you to be the most stubborn about letting go of debunked ideas of anyone on this forum, I would have no need to be cynical.

(Or to put it another way, if "Blackwing got enchanted/destroyed by the rift" actually leaves the forum's memepool at this point, I will be the one saying "I guess I got that one wrong.")

Fair enuf. Though I do think it would take the stongest/most committed of speccers to actually try to square that particular circle.

*hasn't read all of the Discussion Thread yet*
*hopes like hell if he sees anyone say "starting into the Rift caused everyone to remember" that it is, like in this thread, them being ironic*

...

Aw nuts. I set myself up there, didn't I? :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

In this case, the Blackwing tree was mercilessly cut down. Only to see the "OMG, is Julio dying?" tree to rise in its place. :smalltongue:

I don't think it's really fair to list those alongside each other. It's extremely unlikely that Julio is dying and I don't believe it myself, but it's at least a plausible interpretation of his "vacation to Arborea" remarks.

[Porthos]

Hate to break it too you but,


It's extremely unlikely

but it's at least a plausible interpretation of

is pretty much the definition of every Epileptic Tree, ever. :smallwink:

[ti'esar]

The way I see it, there's a difference between plausible and possible. "The Order will not acknowledge Blackwing's existence because the rift erased him from their memories" was a possible interpretation of the facts, but not at all a plausible one. There was absolutely no evidence to support it except a single line that had a much more likely explanation. In contrast, while there are obvious holes and it doesn't "feel" likely, I think there's much more of an in-comic basis for thinking Julio is dying.

[Kish]

Dying of unspecified causes which can't be cured by Durkon casting Heal on him (so...basically old age, and he really doesn't look like Rich draws Venerable people) and going to a plane which doesn't match his alignment.

Yeah...sorry, ti'esar, but I'm afraid I think that tree is as epileptic as the rift deleting Blackwing ever was.

[Porthos]

The way I see it, there's a difference between plausible and possible. "The Order will not acknowledge Blackwing's existence because the rift erased him from their memories" was a possible interpretation of the facts, but not at all a plausible one. There was absolutely no evidence to support it except a single line that had a much more likely explanation. In contrast, while there are obvious holes and it doesn't "feel" likely, I think there's much more of an in-comic basis for thinking Julio is dying.

Not that I want to get too deeply into this, but the thing is people who felt the Blackwing thing was possible did in fact think it was a plausible explanation to things.

What is plausible to you, isn't necessarily plausible to another (ETA: As Kish more or less points out).

Honestly, I don't see much of a difference between Rampant Speculation, Wild Mass Guessing (as TV Tropes puts it) and the phenomenon known as Epileptic Trees. On a continuum, perhaps? Sure, I'd go for that. But, really, speculation is speculation. How well founded it is varies from speculation to speculation and from person to person.

When it comes to Blackwing, and I feel no shame in admitting this, I thought something was up. Even if I didn't exactly ascribe to some of the explanations given.

But Julio? I think there is far less of a chance that there is in fact anything up.

So while the speculation over Julio might be coming out of the long tradition of storytelling/real life experiences, I feel it is far less likely to actually be true.

Hence for me, it's a difference that makes little difference in the end. :smallsmile:

[Loreweaver15]

No, don't you see? Blackwing is the snarl, and the Monster in the Darkness.

It's the only possible explanation.

[orrion]

Frankly, it looks more like "it seemed like a good idea at the time". It was a good gag to go from V ignoring Blackwing to everybody but V ignoring Blackwing, but it seems it may be getting in the way of the plot and so we switch to saying they were just joking [which raises a number of questions].

Are you the author of this strip suddenly? You didn't switch to saying anything.

I see exactly zero of these questions and I don't see how that was getting in the way of the plot at all. Care to elaborate?


The way I see it, there's a difference between plausible and possible. "The Order will not acknowledge Blackwing's existence because the rift erased him from their memories" was a possible interpretation of the facts, but not at all a plausible one. There was absolutely no evidence to support it except a single line that had a much more likely explanation. In contrast, while there are obvious holes and it doesn't "feel" likely, I think there's much more of an in-comic basis for thinking Julio is dying.

Dying of what, exactly?

As Kish said, he wouldn't even go to Arborea if he died since he's Chaotic Neutral and Arborea is a Chaotic-Good aligned plane.

[ti'esar]

I suppose it's just that I found the Blackwing theory so far-fetched and unsupported that anything short of the standard recurring nonsense ("Belkar will be transformed into a construct and move to the Astral Plane!") looks plausible next to it.

And I'll admit there is something a little more believable on an immediate, visceral sort of level about the elderly mentor figure who is giving away his sword because "I won't need it where I'm going" being secretly dying than a theory that hinged on the rifts/Snarl being able to do something that we have only the most tenuous (and likely wrong) evidence for their being able to do. The Blackwing stuff always just felt like people overreacting to an arguably-mishandled running gag.


Dying of what, exactly?

As Kish said, he wouldn't even go to Arborea if he died since he's Chaotic Neutral and Arborea is a Chaotic-Good aligned plane.

Old age would be the only thing that makes sense.

Note that I am emphatically not arguing he is. The alignment issue is insurmountable and I agree that he doesn't really look Venerable (which he would have to be given how death by "old age" has been established to work in OOTS). I just felt like, as a theory, it shouldn't have been listed alongside the Blackwing thing, which I considered totally unfounded and ludicrous.

[multilis]

As Kish said, he wouldn't even go to Arborea if he died since he's Chaotic Neutral and Arborea is a Chaotic-Good aligned plane.
You assume he knows his alignment. After all his good deeds perhaps he *thinks* he is chaotic-good!

Clearly this is linked to Blackwing's exposure to the rift. "Symbol of Death Eaters of carrion, ravens were messengers of death, pestilence, and battle"

Snarl is using Blackwing as his messenger, getting his pawns into position for takeover of chaotic afterlifes.

Now I could go into all the pages of evidence and clues but too many spoilers ruin a good story, better you play detective and find them yourselves!

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't think it's really fair to list those alongside each other. It's extremely unlikely that Julio is dying and I don't believe it myself, but it's at least a plausible interpretation of his "vacation to Arborea" remarks.

It's only a plausible interpretation to those ignorant of the vacation package the Eladrin offer. For the low price of 999.99 gp, you and a loved one will be wisked through a portal to beautiful Feywild Falls, a resort/casino/dude ranch/Elven City Hidden Behind Faerie Magic, that is so beautiful that Sune herself cries every time she lays eyes upon it! There you will bask in the radiant beauty of the Eladrin Queen of Summer, dance with the Satyrs, frolick with the Fauns, and battle the Evil Forces of SkeletorTM! Package includes a shopping trip to Sigil, City of Doors, a tour of Mount Olympus and the ruins of some Divine Realm at it's peak, dinner and a show at Olidammara's Realm, and an unforgettable visit to Dungeonland and the Land Beyond the Magic Mirror! Sign up now at your local extraplanar tourist office. Spots are limited, so hurry!

[orrion]

You assume he knows his alignment. After all his good deeds perhaps he *thinks* he is chaotic-good!

Clearly this is linked to Blackwing's exposure to the rift. "Symbol of Death Eaters of carrion, ravens were messengers of death, pestilence, and battle"

Snarl is using Blackwing as his messenger, getting his pawns into position for takeover of chaotic afterlifes.

Now I could go into all the pages of evidence and clues but too many spoilers ruin a good story, better you play detective and find them yourselves!

I'm assuming he knows his alignment because, in general, the people in OOTS appear to be aware of their alignments (or at least aware of what alignment they're striving to be), and the Giant has said he's Chaotic Neutral.

[The Oni]

In this case, the Blackwing tree was mercilessly cut down. Only to see the "OMG, is Julio dying?" tree to rise in its place.:smalleek:

There's nothing epileptic about that tree; it's quite common among old mentor characters, especially ones whose class features are powered by plot!

[martianmister]

I'm assuming he knows his alignment because, in general, the people in OOTS appear to be aware of their alignments (or at least aware of what alignment they're striving to be), and the Giant has said he's Chaotic Neutral.

Nale thinks himself as LE, and Rich implied he's wrong.

[orrion]

Nale thinks himself as LE, and Rich implied he's wrong.

So what Rich says would be correct. Which means Julio is Chaotic Neutral.

[martianmister]

So what Rich says would be correct. Which means Julio is Chaotic Neutral.

...Really? :smallsigh:

[Loreweaver15]

...Really? :smallsigh:

Yes, really. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889)

[Porthos]

Well in the parlance of 1e he might be CN(G). IIRC, that's where the whole 'tendencies' slang/term came from (which, I know, isn't in later editions). So he could always be headed to Ysgard when he eventually does 'retire' for good. :smallwink:

[martianmister]

Yes, really. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889)

Please read my first post to orrion. :smallannoyed:

[Shale]

I don't follow. Nale claims to be lawful evil but doesn't act it, and Rich implied that's because he's wrong. Julio never says what he believes his alignment to be, but Rich says he's CN. What's the contradiction?

[Porthos]

I don't follow. Nale claims to be lawful evil but doesn't act it, and Rich implied that's because he's wrong. Julio never says what he believes his alignment to be, but Rich says he's CN. What's the contradiction?

If I follow things correctly, the argument is:

Julio believes he is dying and he thinks he will go to Arborea (the CG afterlife) when he does die.
orrin said that most people know their own alignments.
martianmister reminded the thread that while Nale is self-described LE, Rich implied that might not be the case.
Thus, if one takes the first statement as something that is true (the big stumbling block [and I don't buy it]), just because Julio thinks he is headed to Arborea when he dies, doesn't necessarily mean it is so.

That's what I got out of all of this at least.

[martianmister]

I don't follow. Nale claims to be lawful evil but doesn't act it, and Rich implied that's because he's wrong. Julio never says what he believes his alignment to be, but Rich says he's CN. What's the contradiction?

There is no contradiction.


You assume he knows his alignment. After all his good deeds perhaps he *thinks* he is chaotic-good!

I'm assuming he knows his alignment because, in general, the people in OOTS appear to be aware of their alignments

Nale thinks himself as LE, and Rich implied he's wrong.

[orrion]

If I follow things correctly, the argument is:

Julio believes he is dying and he thinks he will go to Arborea (the CG afterlife) when he does die.
orrin said that most people know their own alignments.
martianmister reminded the thread that while Nale is self-described LE, Rich implied that might not be the case.
Thus, if one takes the first statement as something that is true (the big stumbling block [and I don't buy it]), just because Julio thinks he is headed to Arborea when he dies, doesn't necessarily mean it is so.

That's what I got out of all of this at least.

Firstly, I said "in general," which means there could be exceptions and Nale is one.

Second, what martian says reinforces my original point. The Giant says Nale is wrong and he's the final authority. The Giant also says Scoundrel is Chaotic Neutral, so he's Chaotic Neutral.

[ti'esar]

Alas, Master Fitz-Empress, if I expected you to be the most stubborn about letting go of debunked ideas of anyone on this forum, I would have no need to be cynical.

(Or to put it another way, if "Blackwing got enchanted/destroyed by the rift" actually leaves the forum's memepool at this point, I will be the one saying "I guess I got that one wrong.")

Wow, Kish! You're not just psychic - you're a FUTURE psychic! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16939708&postcount=235)

Complete with a "Giant is a better storyteller than that" rationalization for bonus depressing-forum-predictability points.

[Porthos]

Wow, Kish! You're not just psychic - you're a FUTURE psychic! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16939708&postcount=235)

Complete with a "Giant is a better storyteller than that" rationalization for bonus depressing-forum-predictability points.

Hey, if you go over to RPGNet and read their discussion thread, you'll see I'm a future psychic too. :smalltongue:


*hasn't read all of the Discussion Thread yet*
*hopes like hell if he sees anyone say "starting into the Rift caused everyone to remember" that it is, like in this thread, them being ironic*

...

Aw nuts. I set myself up there, didn't I? :smalltongue:

Turns out there was quite a bit of discussion (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?714101-Today-s-Order-of-the-Stick-18-I-Don-t-Know-What-Happens-Next-(Casterfight)!&p=17604686#post17604686) along those lines over there. So I blame them for this one. :smallwink:

[The Linker]

Second, what martian says reinforces my original point. The Giant says Nale is wrong and he's the final authority. The Giant also says Scoundrel is Chaotic Neutral, so he's Chaotic Neutral.

All Martian is trying to say is that Scoundrel could be wrong about what alignment he is, as a refutation to 'the people in OOTS appear to be aware of their alignments.' If Nale is an exception, then Scoundrel could be too.

She's just saying 'don't assume he knows his alignment.' That's all.

[Sir_Leorik]

I honestly don't see Julio Scoundrel as the sort of character who would care what his Alignment was. He'd do what he wanted, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead Mr. Secundus!

(Which makes him Chaotic Neutral, by the way.)

[Carlo]

...did not destroy him or cause anyone to forget about him. Can we get rid of that particular epileptic tree now?

(Aw, who am I kidding? Years of "How did Haley avoid being affected by the rift's effect on Blackwing," ahoy.)


Obviously the effect was reversed when the order looked through Girard's rift!



I'm not an active forumite and am not familiar with this particular debate.. could someone explain exactly why this is particularly implausible? The theory that exposure to the rift somehow affected Blackwing, (specifically the ability others to recognize or perceive him), to me seems like a perfectly straightforward interpretation of the available facts. Prior to the rift exposure, nobody ever questioned his presence or existence, and appeared only as a recurring joke on the ephemerality of wizards' familiars. After the rift exposure and the subsequent permanence of his involvement with the Order, the reverse was true - even when confronted directly with the fact of his existence, the other party members perceived him as merely an illusion, if at all; and nobody would admit to any memory of Blackwing ever having existed. And then when they were in turn exposed to the rift, they readily recognized and acknowledged him again. To be frank, I can't think of any other theory that would fit these strange facts.

I don't mean to trigger what I'm sensing to be a tired and well-worn debate here on these forums, I'm just confused as to why this theory seems so outlandish.

[DeliaP]

I'm not an active forumite and am not familiar with this particular debate.. could someone explain exactly why this is particularly implausible? The theory that exposure to the rift somehow affected Blackwing, (specifically the ability others to recognize or perceive him), to me seems like a perfectly straightforward interpretation of the available facts. Prior to the rift exposure, nobody ever questioned his presence or existence, and appeared only as a recurring joke on the ephemerality of wizards' familiars. After the rift exposure and the subsequent permanence of his involvement with the Order, the reverse was true - even when confronted directly with the fact of his existence, the other party members perceived him as merely an illusion, if at all; and nobody would admit to any memory of Blackwing ever having existed. And then when they were in turn exposed to the rift, they readily recognized and acknowledged him again. To be frank, I can't think of any other theory that would fit these strange facts.

I don't mean to trigger what I'm sensing to be a tired and well-worn debate here on these forums, I'm just confused as to why this theory seems so outlandish.

The counter theory is: it was just a joke.

The Rule of Funny seems a simpler explanation than a complex speculative theory postulating unknown properties of the rift....

[Carlo]

The counter theory is: it was just a joke.

The Rule of Funny seems a simpler explanation than a complex speculative theory postulating unknown properties of the rift....

I would be more persuaded by this if it were in any way funny. The inability of the party to perceive or recognize him correctly wasn't in any way delivered as a joke or punchline (though V's reaction to the phenomenon was).

I also find it odd that speculating about unknown properties of the rift would be considered unnecessarily unparsimonious, when the narrative itself has definitively indicated that prior knowledge regarding the rift is incorrect or incomplete.

Anyway, like I said it's not my intention to restart an old argument. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

[Loreweaver15]

The joke was that Haley (and probably Roy) was-slash-were screwing with V, making her quite exasperated. The exasperated elf and the screwing-with-thereof are both the same joke.

[Carlo]

The joke was that Haley (and probably Roy) was-slash-were screwing with V, making her quite exasperated. The exasperated elf and the screwing-with-thereof are both the same joke.

Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense to me. When have Haley and/or Roy (or Durkon or Elan, for that matter) ever screwed with V like that before? Why would they? It's completely out-of-character for all of them, and it wasn't even signaled in-comic as a prank. In any case, #809 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html) happened outside of V's presence, which I think would definitively disprove the joke-on-V theory.

[Loreweaver15]

Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense to me. When have Haley and/or Roy (or Durkon or Elan, for that matter) ever screwed with V like that before? Why would they? It's completely out-of-character for all of them, and it wasn't even signaled in-comic as a prank. In any case, #809 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html) happened outside of V's presence, which I think would definitively disprove the joke-on-V theory.

Then it was just Haley screwing with her, and Roy, who has never interacted with Blackwing, was just unaware.

[ti'esar]

If you don't think it's funny, I'd strongly recommend considering whether it's possible that it's just not funny to you before coming up with off-the-wall theories that it's actually foreshadowing for some grand twist. Because people reacting against something they didn't like by assuming it's really clues for a secret twist that would make it into something they would like are wrong 99% of the time.

[Sir_Leorik]

I have a question about this whole silly theory:

Why doesn't anyone not remember Xykon? He was as close to the Rift as Blackwing was; shouldn't the alleged mysterious properties of the Rift make everyone but Redcloak forget Xykon exists?

Could it be because this whole thing is ridiculous, that Haley really was busting V's chops, and that Roy only saw Blackwing once, when Blackwing testified against the party during the trial? Besides, V explained to Roy that Blackwing had been by V's side throughout their adventures, only no one could see Blackwing unless V acknowledged his presence. Knowing Roy, wouldn't Roy dismiss that as crazy talk?

As for Belkar and Elan, they have the attention span of goldfish, and while Durkon did heal Blackwing once, it was in Wooden Forest. Durkon apparently missed the raven for the trees. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

Why doesn't anyone not remember Xykon? He was as close to the Rift as Blackwing was; shouldn't the alleged mysterious properties of the Rift make everyone but Redcloak forget Xykon exists?
Lots of ways to account for this. X wasn't so close for long, and maybe not as close ever. Also, the effect varies with relationship. V was apparently unaffected, but the rest of the party, which interacted weakly and briefly with the bird, were affected. So those seeing X during this period were those who had acted with him, and thus were not affected.
A related idea is that the effect wears off. Roy and Belkar are serious in thinking in 809 that this was just a bird, but back in 674, they didn't seem able to perceive him at all. So now Haley is able to see and remember. [I have my doubts that she was "lying" in saying she had been lying in 674. There are several ways to hint this is a lie, and they don't seem to be in use.]



Could it be because this whole thing is ridiculous, that Haley really was busting V's chops, and that Roy only saw Blackwing once, when Blackwing testified against the party during the trial?
Twice. Also in 178 when Haley was telling Roy that V had a familiar.



As for Belkar and Elan, they have the attention span of goldfish,
Belkar is on record remembering Blackwing in 3 and 154. The rift theory is about the only one that explains why he doesn't in 809.



and while Durkon did heal Blackwing once, it was in Wooden Forest. Durkon apparently missed the raven for the trees. :smallwink:
This may be a joke, but a joke will not do as an explanation. Durkon the serious saw V holding the bird and he healed it as well. He should not forget, nor joke.

[Carlo]

If you don't think it's funny, I'd strongly recommend considering whether it's possible that it's just not funny to you before coming up with off-the-wall theories that it's actually foreshadowing for some grand twist. Because people reacting against something they didn't like by assuming it's really clues for a secret twist that would make it into something they would like are wrong 99% of the time.

To my mind, whether or not it's funny misses the point - what matters is whether or not it's consistent with what we previously believed to be true. And the fact of the matter is that it isn't. There simply isn't any reason why the party would fail to properly recognize or perceive Blackwing. All of them had been introduced to him prior to #674 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html). Belkar was the first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) to acknowledge his existence, and recalled him again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) later on. Haley named him. Durkon healed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) him. Roy was specifically informed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html) of his name and existence, and served as a shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html) between him and Lizard!Vaarsuvius. He appeared a further two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html) times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) in the direct presence of the entire Order. One could make the (IMO weak) case that Elan could have failed to notice Blackwing during all of those events, but the rest of the party simply has no excuse. Whether #674 is funny or not doesn't explain away this glaring set of inconsistencies.

Nor does the theory that the party was merely messing with V make any sense. They just collectively (and telepathically?) decided to inflict that joke on him/her for no reason, and without demonstrating any satisfaction at having pulled it off? And Roy and Belkar would keep it up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) outside of V's presence? To the point where Belkar would register surprise that it could talk, when he had been present when Vaarsuvius informed Haley that Blackwing could in fact do so? Where's the humor in reiterating their non-recognizance of Blackwing in a non-joking way? I'm expected to believe that multiple panels and speech balloons across strips would be devoted to this strange inconsistency, but it has no significance to the plot?

To me, the theory that this was all some weird joke actually makes less sense, is less plausible, and requires more tortured logic than the simple theory that the rift has had some as-yet-unexplained effect on Blackwing. The straightforward interpretation of comics 674 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html) and 809 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html) is that, in contradiction to past events, something has affected the ability of the party to recognize/perceive Blackwing. Theories are tested and validated by their predictive power. I can't prove it since I never posted it on this forum, but the truth is that, ever since comic #900 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html), I expected that the party would recognize Blackwing again. I figured that if exposure to the rift somehow removed Blackwing from the party's memory, their exposure to the rift in turn might restore that memory. And hey, it looks like I was right.

If we eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Speaking only for myself, I've eliminated to my satisfaction the theory that V and Blackwing were merely the subject of a clumsy joke. All that remains is that the rift has had some strange effect on Blackwing that affected others' memory and perception of him. Is it a complete theory that explains all the facts? Certainly not. But to my mind it's the best explanation available, and the only one that even begins to fit.

[Loreweaver15]

How do you explain Elan not remembering Blackwing, then? He was there looking into the rift with the others.

I suppose we'll have to wait for Durkon--who did NOT look into the rift--to acknowledge Blackwing's presence in order to properly refute your assertion.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, since Haley, Roy, Elan, and Belkar were so close to the rift, why do others still remember them?

[Shale]

And how do you explain Zz'ditri remembering him, despite never getting close to an open rift?

I blame myself for tempting fate.

[DeliaP]

Well, for me, when I read the party not recognising Blackwing, I thought it was a very funny joke, so felt no need to seek a deeper explanation. If you didn't find it at all funny, then I guess you'd see it different.

But I'll grant this, Haley saying she was just messing with V after the previous poor treatment of Blackwing, makes sense to me. Belkar and Roy? Less so, especially as they did it when V was not around, and Blackwing was delivering information that was very important to them.. .

So if we see Belkar and Roy claim they also recognised Blackwing all along, then maybe there is some deeper hint about the rift/snarl, that may even link up to the fate of Mi Jung and Kraagor.*

But if we see Belkar and/or Roy just shrugging their shoulders and accept that, whatever, V has a raven familiar (now) perhaps with V and/or Haley's insistence, then seriously? Just a joke.

EDIT* Unless I think it's just really funny. In which case: Rule of Funny wins again.

[Carlo]

To be frank, I don't have an explanation for any of those things, because I don't really know what happened to Blackwing. Holmes also taught us how dangerous it always is to reason from insufficient data. As such, my only inference is that the rift did something to Blackwing that interfered with others' perception and memory of him. Beyond that I propose no theories. I don't need for my theory to be complete in order to eliminate others.

[DeliaP]

Incidentally, when people are saying: it was just a joke in 674 and 809, I think mostly they don't mean "It was just a joke that the rest of the OotS was playing on V and Blackwing".

They mean "It's a joke the Giant was making playing off the way V ignored Blackwing's existence, and wouldn't it be funny if, now that V has started to treat Blackwing better, the rest of the Order still couldn't see him. And therefore has to make about as much or little sense as the idea that Blackwing would pop in and out of existence when V thought about him in the first place..."

Well, that's what I meant, anyway.

[Loreweaver15]

Incidentally, when people are saying: it was just a joke in 674 and 809, I think mostly they don't mean "It was just a joke that the rest of the OotS was playing on V and Blackwing".

They mean "It's a joke the Giant was making playing off the way V ignored Blackwing's existence, and wouldn't it be funny if, now that V has started to treat Blackwing better, the rest of the Order still couldn't see him. And therefore has to make about as much or little sense as the idea that Blackwing would pop in and out of existence when V thought about him in the first place..."

Well, that's what I meant, anyway.

That's pretty explicitly what's going on, yeah.

[jere7my]

I would be more persuaded by this if it were in any way funny. The inability of the party to perceive or recognize him correctly wasn't in any way delivered as a joke or punchline (though V's reaction to the phenomenon was).

Running gags don't have punchlines. They just are.

[orrion]

Belkar is on record remembering Blackwing in 3 and 154. The rift theory is about the only one that explains why he doesn't in 809.

Belkar is on record as missing the Exit door despite standing in front of it at one point.



This may be a joke, but a joke will not do as an explanation. Durkon the serious saw V holding the bird and he healed it as well. He should not forget, nor joke.

What capacity are you giving the Order for remembrance? The entire party somehow managed to forget about Durkon right after the first Linear Guild fight.

[Carlo]

Eh, I could go into why it doesn't read as a joke to me (not the same as it being merely unfunny) but seeing as how nobody else seems to be persuaded I'll just drop it for now. Though I reserve the right to say I told you so if events proceed in favor of my theory.

[Muenster Man]

I accepted that this was a continuation of a running gag that conveniently made it even more difficult for V to explain what was in the Rift. I didn't like it, but I accepted it. But Haley's explanation that it was an intentional joke she (they?) was/were playing on V seems forced. And #809 makes that explanation seem increasingly out of place.

[Kish]

Eh, I could go into why it doesn't read as a joke to me (not the same as it being merely unfunny) but seeing as how nobody else seems to be persuaded I'll just drop it for now. Though I reserve the right to say I told you so if events proceed in favor of my theory.
And I would reserve the right to say I told you so to Porthos right now about this not resolving it, except ti'esar already pointed out someone beating you to it.

[David Argall]

The relevant Blackwing record [offer additions please]
#3-Belkar & Haley see Blackwing. Belker is the one who reminds V of familiar.
154. Belkar & Haley see. Haley names.
155. Belkar, Haley, & Durkon see. Durkon heals.
178. Haley, Roy, & Durkon see. Belkar presumably, but off-screen. Haley tells Roy V has a familiar right before it appears.
179. Belkar & Roy see bird.
232. Elan sends bird and others to have special treatment. While this only requires Elan of the party to see [and he is the most likely to forget], it establishes Blackwing as existing at times when V is not thinking of the familiar, which means he can be visible to party members on a host of off-camera times.
271 Everybody sees, and hears V call it "treacherous", a word that requires some expectation of loyalty and association.
331 Blackwing asks Oracle a question in presence of party. They may have forgotten this when exiting the valley, but the forget spell has some holes in it and might remember it. [They seem to remember each other's questions and answers and so would recall the bird. But they might have just told each other the answers. So it is not definite they would have a memory.]
For us tho, it is definite that Blackwing is out at times when V is not thinking of him, and so he could be out and seen by the party any number of times between the pictured scenes.
440 Appears during attack on city. Likely missed by others, but likely means there were several times Blackwing was just not on camera, but was visible to other party members.
658-660 Again away from party, but reports on the fight could have mentioned it, and those reports could have got to the party.
672 Start of Blackwing's routine appearances
673 all see. Blackwing appears in most scenes that V does from here on.
674 All see, but we are told the attitude has changed. Party thinks bird is fake.
698 Roy denies the familiar. Is clearly serious
809 Belkar & Roy are ignorant of familiar, but aware V had a real bird with him. V is not present to be the butt of any jokes.
932 Belkar is addressed by bird and shows no surprise. [Off-camera presumably]
943 Haley says she was just joking.

So the evidence is highly against this having just been a joke. Up to about 670, party sightings of Blackwing are rare, but accepted as seeing a familiar. With 674 sightings become common, but nobody can remember that V has a familiar, and insist they would know if she had one. This attitude might be slowly wearing off as the party has gone from not even accepting that it was a real bird to understanding what is said, and now with Haley denying she had ever forgot it.
932 seems particularly bad for the joke theory. While we can, with strain & twisting, assume that Roy does not know there is a familiar, Belkar was clearly once well-aware of the familiar, and would have been happy to joke, but now he is just ignorant.
The serious Durkon was also rather unlikely to joke, but clearly denied Blackwing despite having healed him.
So some theories...
The exposure to the rift caused all knowledge of Blackwing to be suppressed, and it is gradually being recovered, first by those with the most exposure to the bird. This seems consistent with all the known facts, but the idea is insane, despite having been used in some Dragonlance novels, and elsewhere.
Something else had much the same effects, which leaves us free to speculate, but still doesn't make sensible that somehow something is able to slip into every mental library everywhere and cut out page 46 of a particular book.
The author could have his own reasons. The joke may becoming old and something else works better now. A former planned continuation is now seen as bad.... So the writer is writing it out of the story as best he can when 900 pages have already been written.
But the idea that Haley was joking in 674 gets into lots of trouble the more we look at earlier facts.

[Rodin]

When I read a thread like this, I imagine Rich slamming his head into a wall.

When I read these forums, I imagine a wall pock-marked with craters like the surface of the moon in Rich's computer room...

[orrion]

When I read a thread like this, I imagine Rich slamming his head into a wall.

Not sure about him, but I did a forehead smack.

[Sir_Leorik]

Sometimes a joke about an Elven Wizard forgetting that he has a Familiar until such time that she needs the Familiar's services, is just a joke about an Elven Wizard Forgetting that he has a Familiar until she needs the Familiar's services.

Likewise, sometimes a joke about said Elven Wizard's colleagues also forgetting that the Elven Wizard had a Familiar, because the Elven Wizard kept forgetting that she had a Familiar, is just a joke about said Elven Wizard's colleagues also forgetting that the Elven Wizard had a Familiar, because the Elven Wizard kept forgetting she had a Familiar.

As a corollary, sometimes a joke about the aforementioned Elven Wizard's best friend pretending not to remember that her best friend has a Familiar in order to have a laugh at said friend's expense, is just a oke about the aforementioned Elven Wizard's best friend pretending not to remember that her best friend has a Familiar in order to have a laugh at said friend's expense.

Any questions?

[DeliaP]

Eh, I could go into why it doesn't read as a joke to me (not the same as it being merely unfunny) but seeing as how nobody else seems to be persuaded I'll just drop it for now. Though I reserve the right to say I told you so if events proceed in favor of my theory.

I will certainly grant you full bragging rights over me, no quibbling. :smallsmile:


I accepted that this was a continuation of a running gag that conveniently made it even more difficult for V to explain what was in the Rift. I didn't like it, but I accepted it. But Haley's explanation that it was an intentional joke she (they?) was/were playing on V seems forced. And #809 makes that explanation seem increasingly out of place.

Just a point: Haley's saying she was just messing with V. She didn't say Roy or Belkar were.


And I would reserve the right to say I told you so to Porthos right now about this not resolving it, except ti'esar already pointed out someone beating you to it.

You realise it was you that actually started this thread, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Chantelune]

Or maybe the Giant just wanted for Blackwing to be more present as a character without keeping up the "no one but V remember him" running gag and felt the need to provide at least a bit of an explanation when someone other than V finally acknowledge's Blackwing's presence.

It does feel forced and out of place, but then again, I'd say this is what you get when the readers have a tendancy to overanalyze every little thing that is in comic, even when it's supposed to be just a little joke.

[Kish]

You realise it was you that actually started this thread, right? :smallbiggrin:
Yes, relevance? That question seems to come from an idea that I said something I didn't say.

[allenw]

Sometimes a joke about an Elven Wizard forgetting that he has a Familiar until such time that she needs the Familiar's services, is just a joke about an Elven Wizard Forgetting that he has a Familiar until she needs the Familiar's services.

Likewise, sometimes a joke about said Elven Wizard's colleagues also forgetting that the Elven Wizard had a Familiar, because the Elven Wizard kept forgetting that she had a Familiar, is just a joke about said Elven Wizard's colleagues also forgetting that the Elven Wizard had a Familiar, because the Elven Wizard kept forgetting she had a Familiar.

As a corollary, sometimes a joke about the aforementioned Elven Wizard's best friend pretending not to remember that her best friend has a Familiar in order to have a laugh at said friend's expense, is just a oke about the aforementioned Elven Wizard's best friend pretending not to remember that her best friend has a Familiar in order to have a laugh at said friend's expense.

Any questions?

And sometimes, Malack is a vampire and Familicide killed the Draketooths.
Granted, that's not the way to bet. However, I was right about Malack from early on, and I have a similar feeling about this. And I haven't seen a convincing explanation for 809.

[orrion]

And sometimes, Malack is a vampire and Familicide killed the Draketooths.
Granted, that's not the way to bet. However, I was right about Malack from early on, and I have a similar feeling about this. And I haven't seen a convincing explanation for 809.

An explanation for what? Belkar's terrible spot check?

[Kish]

An explanation for what? Belkar's terrible spot check?
I believe allenw means Roy and Belkar continuing to not remember Blackwing and not accept that the raven speaking to them is actually Vaarsuvius' familiar.

I see little point to arguing the case; the devotees of "No, it was not just a joke!" will hold on until they don't anymore, just like the devotees of "No, 'I...I must succeed' were not the four words!" No amount of throwing words back and forth will make "this individual strip in which the running joke appeared" look like "this strip which clearly shows that something serious and weird is going on" to someone who sees a running joke, or vice versa.

I will say, though--far less cynical than I used to be--that I expect this particular epileptic tree will mostly stop moving before the end of the next book.

[Sir_Leorik]

And I haven't seen a convincing explanation for 809.

What's there to explain? Roy acknowledged that Blackwing was the bird V had been carrying on her shoulder since Sandsedge, and Belkar is an ignorant cretin.

[orrion]

I believe allenw means Roy and Belkar continuing to not remember Blackwing and not accept that the raven speaking to them is actually Vaarsuvius' familiar.

I see little point to arguing the case; the devotees of "No, it was not just a joke!" will hold on until they don't anymore, just like the devotees of "No, 'I...I must succeed' were not the four words!" No amount of throwing words back and forth will make "this individual strip in which the running joke appeared" look like "this strip which clearly shows that something serious and weird is going on" to someone who sees a running joke, or vice versa.

I will say, though--far less cynical than I used to be--that I expect this particular epileptic tree will mostly stop moving before the end of the next book.

Well, Roy DOES remember Blackwing, since he says "I think it's the one that's been on V's shoulder these past two weeks." But whatever.

[David Argall]

What's there to explain? Roy acknowledged that Blackwing was the bird V had been carrying on her shoulder since Sandsedge, and Belkar is an ignorant cretin.
The prime point it establishes is that Roy in particular was not joking in 674, and despite Belkar's limited intellect, it does the same for him too.
In the early strips, Belkar is very familiar with Blackwing, maybe more than V is. [At least it is Belkar who advises V about details of his familiar.] Even with a proto-brain, Belkar could not have forgotten that, without some outside force. Belkar is not the MITD and remembers many things for long periods.
But if we say Belkar was serious in 809, he was serious in 674, and he really could not remember the bird, or even see him. [Note that Roy calls him an illusion, not a real bird. We can make up excuses to make this consistent with 809, but by the text we have, Roy & Belkar could not really see Blackwing in 674, but have gradually recovered the ability to see it is an actual bird.]
The idea Belkar was joking in 674 also suffers from it not being Belkar's type of joke. He is quick to the punchline [usually delivered by dagger] and we see him break cover quickly, as he did with the sandworm. Alternately, he keeps on rubbing it in, as he did with Miss Roy. Doing an extensive joke and just dropping it is foreign to him.
We can note that Haley the liar and secret-holder is just the type to fear admitting she can't remember why she couldn't remember, and to make up a lie to cover that fact up.

Now I tend towards saying the plot should not be allowed to get in the way of the jokes rather than that the jokes should not be allowed to get in the way of the plot, but the two can conflict and I would not be surprised to find that is what we are seeing here. The information we have fits this being a plotpoint with jokes thrown in better than it fits being a pure joke with a dash of plot.

[orrion]

The prime point it establishes is that Roy in particular was not joking in 674, and despite Belkar's limited intellect, it does the same for him too.

Roy didn't need to be joking. The relevant points of 674 are:

"V, I think I would remember seeing a bird hanging around this whole time"

and

"It's a very convincing illusion of a crow, V, but I don't understand why you're trying so hard to convince us that it's been there all along when it clearly hasn't."

Or, in other words, ROY SEES THE BIRD AT BASICALLY THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY, which kind of blows a hole the size of a mushroom cloud through the theory that the rift erased Blackwing's presence. As for the supposed erasure.. let's see..

Roy wasn't around when the familiar first appeared. Wasn't around when the familiar flew over the bandit camp. Was facing the other direction when Blackwing chased V as a lizard (and hell, he wasn't even paying attention to V as a lizard). Wasn't around for when V fought the Death Knight. Wasn't there during V's fight with Xykon in Azure City.

So, yeah. Roy didn't need to be joking in 674. He was dead serious (and correct), and he's able to remember the bird now that he's actually seen it.


I don't see how any of that means anything positive with regard to your theory. Evidence with regard to Roy is either indifferent to it or blows it away.

[Carlo]

Roy didn't need to be joking. The relevant points of 674 are:

"V, I think I would remember seeing a bird hanging around this whole time"

and

"It's a very convincing illusion of a crow, V, but I don't understand why you're trying so hard to convince us that it's been there all along when it clearly hasn't."

Or, in other words, ROY SEES THE BIRD AT BASICALLY THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY, which kind of blows a hole the size of a mushroom cloud through the theory that the rift erased Blackwing's presence. As for the supposed erasure.. let's see..

Roy wasn't around when the familiar first appeared. Wasn't around when the familiar flew over the bandit camp. Was facing the other direction when Blackwing chased V as a lizard (and hell, he wasn't even paying attention to V as a lizard). Wasn't around for when V fought the Death Knight. Wasn't there during V's fight with Xykon in Azure City.

So, yeah. Roy didn't need to be joking in 674. He was dead serious (and correct), and he's able to remember the bird now that he's actually seen it.


I don't see how any of that means anything positive with regard to your theory. Evidence with regard to Roy is either indifferent to it or blows it away.

Alarmed as I am to be on the same side of an argument as David Argall, I have to say he has the more convincing point here. I already pointed out that Haley specifically informed Roy that V has a familiar, and Blackwing had appeared at least twice in the presence of the entire Order (at the trial, and at the Oracle). There is simply no excuse for Roy to be unaware that Blackwing exists, and therefore there's no reason why he should refuse to accept that the bird on V's shoulder in 674, the same bird that spoke to him and Belkar in 809, is Blackwing. I get that others are satisfied with Rule of Funny as an explanation for this contradiction, but your assertion that the contradiction doesn't even exist is plainly false.

[Rodin]

Alarmed as I am to be on the same side of an argument as David Argall, I have to say he has the more convincing point here. I already pointed out that Haley specifically informed Roy that V has a familiar, and Blackwing had appeared at least twice in the presence of the entire Order (at the trial, and at the Oracle). There is simply no excuse for Roy to be unaware that Blackwing exists, and therefore there's no reason why he should refuse to accept that the bird on V's shoulder in 674, the same bird that spoke to him and Belkar in 809, is Blackwing. I get that others are satisfied with Rule of Funny as an explanation for this contradiction, but your assertion that the contradiction doesn't even exist is plainly false.

I have yet to see even a single point in favor of a contradiction that makes even a lick of sense. It's Epileptic Trees at it's most ridiculous, and you should be alarmed to be on the same side as Argall.

When the canary in the cage is dead, it ain't because it went on to the party further down the shaft without you.

[Carlo]

I have yet to see even a single point in favor of a contradiction that makes even a lick of sense.

Could you clarify what you mean by this? What do you mean by "a point in favor of a contradiction"?

[Rodin]

Could you clarify what you mean by this? What do you mean by "a point in favor of a contradiction"?

When the base assertion is "A running gag is not the running gag it appears to be but actually a super-duper-subtle hint to the horrifying nature of the rifts", I file that straight under the same category as "Haley is actually half-Celestial" and "The Ancient Black Dragon was a Time Lord who got assassinated by Altair-disguised-as-Vaarsuvius."

When the entire Order ignores Blackwing for 90% of the comic (remember, every panel where V is there, Blackwing is also there, but is not seen because the entire Order including V has forgotten him), a further joke about how they are continuing to ignore him despite V finally paying attention does not indicate that Blackwing was suddenly Ret-Gone.

[David Argall]

Roy didn't need to be joking. The relevant points of 674 are:

"V, I think I would remember seeing a bird hanging around this whole time"

and

"It's a very convincing illusion of a crow, V, but I don't understand why you're trying so hard to convince us that it's been there all along when it clearly hasn't."

Or, in other words, ROY SEES THE BIRD AT BASICALLY THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY, which kind of blows a hole the size of a mushroom cloud through the theory that the rift erased Blackwing's presence.
The theory is that the rift erased all memory of Blackwing [and possibly the ability to see him in some cases], not that it erased the physical Blackwing.
But the evidence you produce is that in support of the idea. Roy can't remember what he should be able to. When he sees the bird, he calls it an illusion



As for the supposed erasure.. let's see..

Roy wasn't around when the familiar first appeared. Wasn't around when the familiar flew over the bandit camp. Was facing the other direction when Blackwing chased V as a lizard (and hell, he wasn't even paying attention to V as a lizard). Wasn't around for when V fought the Death Knight. Wasn't there during V's fight with Xykon in Azure City.
He was told V had a familiar, and was within a yard or two of it almost immediately [The idea he never turned to look at a noisy bird is a major stretch], did see it at the trial, was again very close to him at the Oracle, and could have heard reports about him from V, O-Chuul, or others.



So, yeah. Roy didn't need to be joking in 674. He was dead serious (and correct), and he's able to remember the bird now that he's actually seen it.
The fact he was serious is the point. We could see the case if somebody said "V is paying a lot attention to his bird now unlike before. It would be a good gag to all pretend we can't see it." But Roy is not part of any such conspiracy, and he is the one who sets the scene off. We have to reject the conspiracy idea.
Then we have the behavior of Belkar. He'd be thrilled to try something like this on V, but not only does he have trouble keeping serious when pulling such a prank, he is quite ignorant of Blackwing in 809 despite a long history of acknowledging him. He too seems quite serious in 674.

So we are pretty much left with this being a gag of out author's, which would make better sense if Haley had not claim to be lying, or of some plot point we have yet to see. I can't say I like either idea, but so far everything is at least consistent if it is a plot point.

[orrion]

He was told V had a familiar, and was within a yard or two of it almost immediately [The idea he never turned to look at a noisy bird is a major stretch], did see it at the trial, was again very close to him at the Oracle, and could have heard reports about him from V, O-Chuul, or others.

Look, you either rely on in-comic evidence or you don't - there's no halfway. Roy did not see Blackwing in that instance. Also, noisy bird? 1 caw after moving away from Roy quickly (as indicated by speed lines on both Blackwing and the lizard) does not constitute "noisy."

Wait, wait, wait. Are you actually using the scene at the Oracle as evidence? You know, the scene nobody remembers because they forgot everything except their answer when they left the valley? And yet here you are using Roy's forgetfulness to justify a theory.

What's your justification for forgetting the Sunken Valley's memory charm, alien abduction?

The trial was very obviously a gag.



The fact he was serious is the point.

Roy definitively saw Blackwing ONCE in what can be dismissed as a gag panel and that was 403 comics and a war and a death ago. Roy does not demonstrably have an infallible memory - remember the forgetting of Durkon?

So, Roy forgets the one instance he'd actually seen Blackwing. That's not exactly endorsement for your theory.



Then we have the behavior of Belkar. He'd be thrilled to try something like this on V, but not only does he have trouble keeping serious when pulling such a prank, he is quite ignorant of Blackwing in 809 despite a long history of acknowledging him. He too seems quite serious in 674.

Belkar has a long history of missing things in front of his face and not thinking anything through.



So we are pretty much left with this being a gag of out author's, which would make better sense if Haley had not claim to be lying, or of some plot point we have yet to see. I can't say I like either idea, but so far everything is at least consistent if it is a plot point.

Everything is consistent? Like Xykon not being forgotten in the same manner? Like Roy, Haley, Elan, and Belkar not receiving the same effect from Girard's Gate despite standing pretty darn close to it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) when looking through it? Yeah, sure, whatever.

[allenw]

What Kish and David Argall said. :smallbiggrin:

(Really, how often does someone get to say that?)

[Carlo]

When the base assertion is "A running gag is not the running gag it appears to be but actually a super-duper-subtle hint to the horrifying nature of the rifts"

To some of us it doesn't appear to be a running gag at all. But more to the point, your entire argument is pretty easy to disprove, especially since it's composed of little more than indignation and condescension.

First, let's examine Belkar's comments with regard to Blackwing:

Comic #3:
Belkar: Hey, V, don't you have a familiar that grants Alertness?
Vaarsuvius: Hmm? Oh, yes, yes, of course. My raven is right here.
Belkar: See anything?
Vaarsuvius: I do not.
Haley: I didn't know you had a familiar...

Comic #154:
Haley: Hey, V, why don't you send your familiar to scout the camp for him?
Vaarsuvius: My what now?
Haley: Your familiar. The raven?
Belkar: You had him in comic #3.

Comic #674:
Vaarsuvius: I refer to my raven familiar, Blackwing [...]
Roy: ... Your what now?
Belkar: You have a familiar? When did you get a familiar?

The irrefutable fact is that Belkar knew of Blackwing's existence since basically the beginning of the comic, but then denied that knowledge later on (and was sincere in his denial, as evidenced by #809). This is an internal contradiction within the comic, full stop. You can reconcile it however you like - Rule of Funny, Belkar simply forgot about Blackwing, bad writing, exposure to the rift - but you can't deny that the contradiction exists. If you can't at least concede on this point, well frankly you're just 100% wrong, and this entire discussion is pointless.

Second, let's look at Haley's comments:

Comic #3:
Belkar: Hey, V, don't you have a familiar that grants Alertness?
Vaarsuvius: Hmm? Oh, yes, yes, of course. My raven is right here.
[...]
Haley: I didn't know you had a familiar...

Comic #154:
Haley: Hey, V, why don't you send your familiar to scout the camp for him?
Vaarsuvius: My what now?
Haley: Your familiar. The raven?
Belkar: You had him in comic #3.
[Haley proceeds to name Blackwing].

Comic #178:
Haley: Hey, we could ask Blackwing to scout ahead!
Roy: Who?
Lizard!Vaarsuvius: Who?
Haley: Vaarsuvius' familiar. I had some luck asking him to scout the bandit camp for us.
Lizard!Vaarsuvius: Wait! No! Don't mention -


Comic #674:
Vaarsuvius: I refer to my raven familiar, Blackwing [...]
Roy: ... Your what now?
Belkar: You have a familiar? When did you get a familiar?
[B]Haley: Huh. I didn't know that.
Vaarsuvius: You did not- Miss Starshine, you were the one who bequeathed upon him his Common name!
Haley: I was? I don't remember that.

Comic #943:
Haley: Belkar, leave Blackwing alone.
Blackwing: Yeah, leave Blackwing - Hey! You remember me now?
Haley: Schyeah! I'm the one who named you. I was just busting V's chops before.
Blackwing: Huh. Well, V's chops have been utterly and thoroughly busted. So, job well done, I guess.

These bits of dialogue affirm regarding Haley what we (or at least I) already concluded about Belkar - that she knew of Blackwing's existence early on in the comic, then later denied that knowledge, claiming no memory of ever having met or named him, even when confronted with Blackwing himself. Then in the end, she claims that she was just pranking V. If this was indeed the case, then your assertion that this was merely an extension of the old running gag about forgetting familiars cannot be true. Because a) that old gag relied on the idea of wizards merely forgetting the existence of their familiars until so reminded, much like real-life players of D&D - but Haley denied Blackwing's existence even when reminded, alluding to no tabletop gaming trope that I'm aware of. And b) if it was just a gag about the party forgetting about Blackwing now that Vaarsuvius remembers him, then why would Haley later claim to never have forgotten Blackwing at all? Either the Giant was joking about PCs forgetting familiars, or Haley (but not the others?) was playing an in-universe joke on Vaarsuvius in claiming to forget that his/her familiar existed. But both cannot be true, because the two jokes rely on contradictory premises - the former, that the PCs forget that Blackwing exists; and the latter, that Haley recalls Blackwing's existence all along. So which is it?

Third, let's look at Roy's interactions with Blackwing:

Comic #178:
Haley: Hey, we could ask Blackwing to scout ahead!
Roy: Who?
Lizard!Vaarsuvius: Who?
Haley: Vaarsuvius' familiar. I had some luck asking him to scout the bandit camp for us.
Lizard!Vaarsuvius: Wait! No! Don't mention -
[Blackwing appears and chases Lizard!Vaarsuvius, who takes shelter behind Roy.]

Comic #271:
.

Comic #674:
Vaarsuvius: I refer to my raven familiar, Blackwing [...]
[B]Roy: ... Your what now?
Belkar: You have a familiar? When did you get a familiar?
Haley: Huh. I didn't know that.
Vaarsuvius: You did not- Miss Starshine, you were the one who bequeathed upon him his Common name!
Haley: I was? I don't remember that.

Comic #809:
Belkar: Who said that?
Roy: That bird. I think it's the one that's been on V's shoulder these past two weeks.
Belkar: It can talk?!?
Roy: No, probably not. I think it's some sort of magical message that was triggered when I asked where V was, like a Magic Mouth spell. Those were V's words, just coming out of the bird's beak.
Blackwing: You are both ignorant cretins.
Roy: See?
Belkar: Yeah, I guess you're right.

There are several points I want to establish here. First, Roy knew about Blackwing, which leads us again to the same contradiction in #674 that we've established for Belkar and Haley. Argall is right that it makes no sense for Roy to not have noticed Blackwing in #178. Haley explicitly tells Roy that Blackwing is Vaarsuvius's familiar, after which Blackwing immediately appears and begins chasing the lizard they believe to be Vaarsuvius, and that same lizard then takes shelter behind Roy. Roy is not stupid, deaf, or blind - there is no conceivable way that all of that could happen in his presence without him failing to understand that the raven is Vaarsuvius's familiar, or at least that Vaarsuvius has a familiar.

Second, if the gag in #674 is that everyone has forgotten about Blackwing, it relies on too many clumsy in-universe explanations to support. #943 explains that Haley was merely "busting V's chops"; but it and #809 establish that Elan, Roy, and Belkar were sincere. Orrion argues that Roy had simply never met or heard of Blackwing (which is impossible), but the same can't be said of Belkar, who must therefore have merely forgotten about Blackwing (which is completely out-of-character). So what about Elan then, did he also fail to notice Blackwing during all of his appearances? How about Durkon, who had once healed Blackwing - was he joking like Haley or being forgetful like Belkar? Jokes are meant to be told and forgotten, they do not typically require three to five separate and thus far implausible explanations, some provided in-comic and others left unexplained for the reader to piece together, in order to be understood. You might have a case for dismissing it all as Rule of Funny if the matter had been dropped entirely after #674, but the Giant took the time to give an incomplete explanation almost three hundred strips later. This "joke" simply collapses under the weight of its complexity.

And third, if Rich was making a gag at Vaarsuvius's expense in #674, then what was the point of the dialogue regarding Blackwing in #809? Vaarsuvius wasn't present at the time, so there was no humor to be had at his/her expense. If the joke was that Roy and Belkar had once again forgotten about Blackwing, then why wasn't that the punchline? How does that joke necessitate Roy making a convoluted explanation about a Magic Mouth-like spell, rather than forming the simpler conclusion staring them literally in the face that Blackwing was a talking bird?

Finally, I want to point out that nowhere in this particularly comment am I proposing or endorsing any theory the rift had anything to do with all of these contradictions. My point is simply that these contradictions exist, and that "running gag" is not a satisfying explanation. I'm not saying that trees are having an epileptic fit, I'm just trying to point out to everyone else that they are in fact rustling mysteriously.

[Loreweaver15]

And third, if Rich was making a gag at Vaarsuvius's expense in #674, then what was the point of the dialogue regarding Blackwing in #809? Vaarsuvius wasn't present at the time, so there was no humor to be had at his/her expense. If the joke was that Roy and Belkar had once again forgotten about Blackwing, then why wasn't that the punchline? How does that joke necessitate Roy making a convoluted explanation about a Magic Mouth-like spell, rather than forming the simpler conclusion staring them literally in the face that Blackwing was a talking bird?

But...but that was the joke! The joke was that the surface joke was ridiculously convoluted. The humor came, not from the fact that Blackwing was being ignored, but that the main characters were so far out in left field. That was the joke.

And, again, if looking into the rift erases you from other people's awareness--a leap that has no logical foundation without the tenuous assertion that the Blackwing gag is a plot point rather than medium-painting humor that's been around since the beginning of the comic and is being inverted now that V's attitude towards the familiar has been inverted--why hasn't it affected Elan, Roy, Haley, or Belkar in the same way? Julio remembers Elan without ever knowing a rift exists. For that matter, Elan expresses recognition of Blackwing's existence but ignorance of Blackwing's identity after looking into the rift, which is exactly what Roy and Belkar did when the Magic Mouth conversation happened.

Explain those two points, please.

[jere7my]

The irrefutable fact is that Belkar knew of Blackwing's existence since basically the beginning of the comic, but then denied that knowledge later on (and was sincere in his denial, as evidenced by #809). This is an internal contradiction within the comic, full stop.

This is like saying, "Bugs Bunny ran off the ledge and didn't fall, yet Yosemite Sam ran off the same ledge and fell. CONTRADICTION!"


My point is simply that these contradictions exist, and that "running gag" is not a satisfying explanation.

Running gags can encompass contradictions, on account of them being running gags. Characters can behave inconsistently in service of comedy. Thousands of words of mind-numbing analysis aren't going to change that basic rule.

[Carlo]

But...but that was the joke! The joke was that the surface joke was ridiculously convoluted. The humor came, not from the fact that Blackwing was being ignored, but that the main characters were so far out in left field. That was the joke.

The joke was that... the surface joke was ridiculously convoluted? How does that make any sense?? How is that funny?!?

Sigh.. I don't think I have any choice but to give up and accept that the humor circuits in my brain simply cannot process this type of humor. No matter how much everyone else insists, it just doesn't read like a joke to me.


And, again, if looking into the rift erases you from other people's awareness--a leap that has no logical foundation without the tenuous assertion that the Blackwing gag is a plot point rather than medium-painting humor that's been around since the beginning of the comic and is being inverted now that V's attitude towards the familiar has been inverted--why hasn't it affected Elan, Roy, Haley, or Belkar in the same way? Julio remembers Elan without ever knowing a rift exists. For that matter, Elan expresses recognition of Blackwing's existence but ignorance of Blackwing's identity after looking into the rift, which is exactly what Roy and Belkar did when the Magic Mouth conversation happened.

Explain those two points, please.

I've already said - I have no explanation for these points. I don't know what the rift did to Blackwing, if anything. My only goal now is to show that there's something going on with Blackwing that needs explaining in the first place.

[Loreweaver15]

Here's a simple example of a multi-level joke: You're watching a sitcom, and one character has an arc going on where they're trying to break into stand-up comedy, except this character really sucks at it. The would-be comedian tells a really terrible joke in an attempt to prove that they can be funny. Assuming the writers of the episode make it actually funny, then we, as an audience, aren't laughing at the joke the character tells--we're laughing at the joke being dumb.

Therefore, the "joke" is that the joke is stupid.

That's a really basic example, but this kind of meta-humor is very common. The incident where Belkar and Roy are ignoring Blackwing's sapience is a joke on multiple levels--on the surface, the joke is a continuation of the running gag that the party cannot perceive Blackwing as fully real. On a meta level--the level at which we're actually laughing, if we find it amusing--the joke is that the joke is causing these characters to ignore Occam's Razor, and also that Blackwing's response to them acting in that way appears to support their silly conclusion.

On a larger level, from the beginning of the comic, Blackwing had only appeared when V acknowledged him, and V only acknowledged him when she needed him. V had to constantly be reminded by the party that Blackwing existed.

Then, when V tangoed with Xykon with Blackwing's aid, she started to make a conscious effort to not ignore her familiar, and then the joke gets inverted because circumstances have been inverted--V is fully aware of Blackwing and thus Blackwing never pops out of existence, but the rest of the party has either forgotten about the familiar or is pranking V. The joke is then turned inside out and presented inside-out for the rest of the book until Haley cops to doing it on purpose. This whole structure is another construct of humor at the mechanical level; humor often plays on subverting our expectations of what's going on, so refreshing a joke can be done by then subverting the way we've expected the joke to play out.

[Carlo]

This is like saying, "Bugs Bunny ran off the ledge and didn't fall, yet Yosemite Sam ran off the same ledge and fell. CONTRADICTION!"

Yes! Exactly! A rule applies to one character but not another - it's the very definition of a contradiction! It just happens to be a simple and funny one.


Running gags can encompass contradictions, on account of them being running gags. Characters can behave inconsistently in service of comedy. Thousands of words of mind-numbing analysis aren't going to change that basic rule.

I completely, 100% agree that running gags can encompass contradictions, and that characters can behave inconsistently in service of comedy. But characters behaving inconsistently is not, in itself, inherently funny. Overturning previously established facts within the narrative is not, in itself, inherently funny. Delivering incomplete, post-hoc explanations for prior narrative contradictions that were in turn deployed for the sake of humor, explanations that in turn undermine the premise on which that humor is based, certainly isn't inherently funny, and is in fact decidedly unfunny.

Or to put it another way, Bugs Bunny and the Roadrunner running off the ledge onto thin air while Wile E Coyote falls off, sure, a funny contradiction. But if later on Bugs Bunny went back to that ledge and explained to the viewing audience that it had been a magical anti-gravity ledge all along that worked only on mammals but not birds, how would that be funny?

[Loreweaver15]

Any response to my explanation, Carlo? Seems you were posting at the same time I was.

[Rodin]

But...the Bugs Bunny example is what happened. Rich never went back and made up a techno-babble solution for why people were ignoring Blackwing, the forum has now come along and made that argument, thereby missing the point of the joke.

Further point to sink the argument - Blackwing has supposedly become so that people can't notice him. However, he successfully buys diamond dust from the shop that V got kicked out of the same day as the "contentious" event in question. Not to mention Qarr having a full conversation and battle with him prior to the Belkar/Roy conversation!

I don't see how there's even a single leg for the argument to stand on. I don't agree that the Order were acting "out of character", because they were acting the exact same way they've always treated Blackwing. The one exception would have been Haley, and we've now seen that she saw the others forgetting and piled on for comic effect.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I think all of these attempts to explain why the joke was funny are missing the point. Humor is subjective, and frankly I didn't think it was funny myself. But what really annoyed me about this "theory" was the way it was predicated on the idea that any joke that isn't funny must be a SECRET PLOT HINT. That's the mindset I really wish this forum could lose.

[David Argall]

Look, you either rely on in-comic evidence or you don't - there's no halfway.
There is nothing but halfway. Recall the bathroom strips. Was that the only time they went? Would that answer change if those strips had not appeared? How many times do we see the party sleeping? Nothing even remotely close to the 4000 cases of sleeping/trancing that we assume happened.
Miko attacks the party off camera. No pictures of the battle at all. Did that battle happen? We infer it from the next picture? Sure, but that means we have entered the halfway, and we can and do infer other things despite an absence of direct evidence.



Roy did not see Blackwing in that instance. Also, noisy bird? 1 caw after moving away from Roy quickly (as indicated by speed lines on both Blackwing and the lizard) does not constitute "noisy."
A lizard is grabbing your leg and you don't look? And Blackwing is right there, and he doesn't look? You are trying to say, "I don't see it, so it didn't happen", but we know we don't see a whole lot of things that did happen. The lack of something happening on camera in no way means it did not happen.



Wait, wait, wait. Are you actually using the scene at the Oracle as evidence? You know, the scene nobody remembers because they forgot everything except their answer when they left the valley? And yet here you are using Roy's forgetfulness to justify a theory.
Roy testifies that he in fact remembers several facts from his first trip, facts he should have forgotten if this was a perfect wipe. And when they leave the valley, the scene is identical to the first scene. This is not possible if they remembered only their own answers. That would mean they remember Blackwing's answer as well, and possibly some other facts as well. The Oracle is not perfect evidence because of the memory wipe, but it is still evidence that Roy knew of Blackwing.



The trial was very obviously a gag.
Several of them actually, but Roy has forgotten no part of the trial, and many of our future events are based on the trial. So the gag element of the trial tells us that 674 can be both gag and plot important. And again, it says that Roy should have known Blackwing.



Roy does not demonstrably have an infallible memory - remember the forgetting of Durkon?
He did not forget Durkon existed. Indeed, he didn't really forget Durkon at all. What he forgot was to check that everyone was present.



So, Roy forgets the one instance he'd actually seen Blackwing. That's not exactly endorsement for your theory.
As noted, you are trying to say nothing happened except what is pictured, and we know that to be tremendously wrong. We do not see even 1% of what is happening. Hopefully, we see the important 1%, but we are talking about events that fall well outside that figure. Prior to 674, we could have 1000s of cases of Roy viewing Blackwing without any showing on camera.



Belkar has a long history of missing things in front of his face and not thinking anything through.
But we do not have that long history of Belkar forgetting stuff. And he knows of Blackwing, a fact we are told of several times. But he is shown in 674 as just as ignorant as Roy. And we have Durkon, who healed Blackwing, in Vs hands. There is just too much here to say they forgot naturally.



Everything is consistent? Like Xykon not being forgotten in the same manner? Like Roy, Haley, Elan, and Belkar not receiving the same effect from Girard's Gate despite standing pretty darn close to it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) when looking through it? Yeah, sure, whatever.
Since V did not forget [at least not as long], we are dealing with a situation where we know there are varying conditions. Given our ignorance, we can't say these are exceptions. A set of rules based on distance from the rift and time exposed can easily handle all of these.
And of course, as has been mentioned we don't even know that the rift is involved at all. We just know that the party has suffered Blackwing memory problems that are not explained by Haley's claim of a joke.

[Carlo]

Here's a simple example of a multi-level joke: You're watching a sitcom, and one character has an arc going on where they're trying to break into stand-up comedy, except this character really sucks at it. The would-be comedian tells a really terrible joke in an attempt to prove that they can be funny. Assuming the writers of the episode make it actually funny, then we, as an audience, aren't laughing at the joke the character tells--we're laughing at the joke being dumb.

Therefore, the "joke" is that the joke is stupid.

That's a really basic example, but this kind of meta-humor is very common.

Well okay, yes, and I hope you understand I'm not actually comedically stupid. I'm familiar with the concept of a meta-joke. I just don't read this particular joke as a meta-joke (or any other kind of joke).

Warning: what follows is such a torturous analysis of comedy it probably violates the Geneva Conventions.


The incident where Belkar and Roy are ignoring Blackwing's sapience is a joke on multiple levels--on the surface, the joke is a continuation of the running gag that the party cannot perceive Blackwing as fully real.

Which already causes the joke to fail, to my mind. The gag that the party cannot perceive Blackwing as fully real isn't a humorous OR logical continuation of the (funny) gag that Vaarsuvius could never remember or notice Blackwing. The two aren't parallel or equivalent (unable to perceive or recall ≠ keeps forgetting he's there), the former is contradicted by established facts, and the humor from the former is derived from the indignation Vaarsuvius suffered as a result, which is absent here.


On a meta level--the level at which we're actually laughing, if we find it amusing--the joke is that the joke is causing these characters to ignore Occam's Razor,

Okay, I can at least grasp the comedic logic, even though it doesn't resonate with me in the slightest. Because the underlying joke is, to me, already a mess of contradictions, the meta-joke that rests upon it falls flat as well. The meta-joke also strikes me as distractingly unparsimonious - it would be funnier to simply allude to the earlier, underlying "joke" that they couldn't recognize Blackwing ("hey that bird that was on V's shoulder could talk! he sure would have been useful to have in the past!")


and also that Blackwing's response to them acting in that way appears to support their silly conclusion.

Okay, I totally agree that this was funny.


On a larger level, from the beginning of the comic, Blackwing had only appeared when V acknowledged him, and V only acknowledged him when she needed him. V had to constantly be reminded by the party that Blackwing existed.

With you so far...


Then, when V tangoed with Xykon with Blackwing's aid, she started to make a conscious effort to not ignore her familiar, and then the joke gets inverted because circumstances have been inverted--V is fully aware of Blackwing and thus Blackwing never pops out of existence, but the rest of the party has either forgotten about the familiar or is pranking V.

... aaaand I'm lost. I mean, I can grasp it intellectually, your sentences make logical and grammatical sense, and I can just baaarely grasp the comedic logic. But frankly,


The inversion itself just didn't strike me as inherently funny,



The deployment of the inversion wasn't funny, as it involved too much talking, arguments, and objections by the characters, almost all of which were presented in a non-comedic way,



The inversion required introducing a set of glaring and distracting contradictions within the narrative, a set of contradictions that was itself also unfunny,



Reconciling the contradictions in turn required multiple explanations to account for the different characters (Haley was pranking but Belkar genuinely forgot? did Roy and/or Elan simply never see Blackwing in the first place? what about Durkon?),



An explanation was given for just one of those contradictions hundreds of strips later (Haley didn't forget, she was just busting V's chops), which simultaneously:


undermines any humor that might have been there (you don't explain the joke),


undermines the inversion on which that humor was tenuously based, because pranking Vaarsuvius by pretending not to remember/recognize Blackwing isn't an inversion of Vaarsuvius's own past inability to remember Blackwing,


precludes the interpretation that there isn't any explanation for the contradictions, that they're just meant to be funny (pure Rule of Funny),


hints that explanations exist for the others, but there isn't any promise that such explanations will ever be offered,


ultimately makes the joke even more meta-complicated, by retconning #674 to include an in-universe joke (Haley's prank) buried under the inversions, contradictions, and explanations already mentioned,




The only comedic anchor for the joke that really made sense to me (and the one that was actually in the punchline) - namely Vaarsuvius's indignation at the unexpected turn of events - was completely absent in the next significant iteration of the joke, where he/she wasn't even present



Even granting everything else for the sake of argument, the whole thing seemed unnecessarily cruel to Vaarsuvius, whom I thought should be rewarded rather than frustrated for his/her character development regarding Blackwing



The joke is then turned inside out and presented inside-out for the rest of the book until Haley cops to doing it on purpose. This whole structure is another construct of humor at the mechanical level; humor often plays on subverting our expectations of what's going on, so refreshing a joke can be done by then subverting the way we've expected the joke to play out.

By this point I think you can see why I find this "construct of humor", resting as it did on a foundation shakier than quicksand, to have already fallen apart before it was ever completed. (And also why I find the rift theory, itself full of holes and gaps, to be the simpler theory).

[Loreweaver15]

I'll do a more thorough response when I get up in the morning, but I'll leave you with this question for now--

When has the comic ever shied away from the Rule of Funny? Hell, that's what the original joke about V forgetting the existence of her familiar and thus causing Blackwing to pop in and out of existence consisted of.

And thank you for the sane, civil, and thorough response!

(And I don't think you're stupid. You had expressed confusion at how what we were regarding as a multi-level joke functioned on multiple levels; I was presenting a basic meta-joke as a prelude to discussing the framework of this one.)

[Carlo]

But...the Bugs Bunny example is what happened. Rich never went back and made up a techno-babble solution for why people were ignoring Blackwing, the forum has now come along and made that argument, thereby missing the point of the joke.

Yes, Rich did, in the last strip. He told us that Haley was merely "busting V's chops" in #674, rather than forgetting Blackwing's existence with no explanation.


Further point to sink the argument - Blackwing has supposedly become so that people can't notice him. However, he successfully buys diamond dust from the shop that V got kicked out of the same day as the "contentious" event in question. Not to mention Qarr having a full conversation and battle with him prior to the Belkar/Roy conversation!

I've already said multiple times that I have no explanation for these inconsistencies! I have no complete theory for what happened to Blackwing, I've simply rejected the explanation that it was all a joke!


I don't see how there's even a single leg for the argument to stand on. I don't agree that the Order were acting "out of character", because they were acting the exact same way they've always treated Blackwing.

NO THEY WERE NOT, AS I'VE ALREADY EXPLAINED AT EXCRUCIATING LENGTH. There is NO way you can argue that "Hey, V, don't you have a familiar that grants Alertness? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)" is consistent with "You have a familiar? When did you get a familiar? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html)"! At least pay me the courtesy of actually reading what I have to say before you respond.

[Carlo]

Honestly, I think all of these attempts to explain why the joke was funny are missing the point. Humor is subjective, and frankly I didn't think it was funny myself. But what really annoyed me about this "theory" was the way it was predicated on the idea that any joke that isn't funny must be a SECRET PLOT HINT. That's the mindset I really wish this forum could lose.

My argument is ultimately premised on the idea that, not only is the "joke" not funny, it's not actually a joke at all, and was never intended as such by Rich. Its structure, its deployment, its underlying logic - none of it works, to my mind; and any claim by other forumites that it's just a gag strikes me as a shaky, post hoc explanation to justify a contradiction within the narrative. As the great detective once said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. If it's not a joke, then all we're left with is the rift theory, however shaky and incomplete that might be.

[ti'esar]

That argument is essentially tautological, though. And perhaps more importantly it's extremely presumptive - I never had any urge to "explain" anything. It was obviously a joke, I can't see any way to read it as anything else, and when I found out people were building up theories around it not being so, both my immediate and thought-out responses were derision. And, again, I didn't even think it was funny, which many other people here claim to have done. It is outright ludicrous to say that it being a joke is "impossible" when there is no shortage of people here who see that as easily possible, and to say that they're all just coming up with post-hoc explanations is insulting.

[jere7my]

My argument is ultimately premised on the idea that, not only is the "joke" not funny, it's not actually a joke at all, and was never intended as such by Rich. Its structure, its deployment, its underlying logic - none of it works, to my mind; and any claim by other forumites that it's just a gag strikes me as a shaky, post hoc explanation to justify a contradiction within the narrative. As the great detective once said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. If it's not a joke, then all we're left with is the rift theory, however shaky and incomplete that might be.

Okay. But it's a joke.

[Carlo]

I'll do a more thorough response when I get up in the morning, but I'll leave you with this question for now--

When has the comic ever shied away from the Rule of Funny? Hell, that's what the original joke about V forgetting the existence of her familiar and thus causing Blackwing to pop in and out of existence consisted of.

It hasn't, as far as I can recall. But Rule of Funny requires that something actually be, well, funny. I always thought the original Blackwing joke was hilarious (#658 is absolutely one of my all-time favorite strips), the more so because it made absolutely no logical sense. But this new Blackwing gag, to me, just makes no logical OR comedic sense.


And thank you for the sane, civil, and thorough response!

You're welcome, and thank you as well! Your explanation was actually very helpful in clarifying my own thinking!

[Carlo]

That argument is essentially tautological, though. And perhaps more importantly it's extremely presumptive - I never had any urge to "explain" anything. It was obviously a joke, I can't see any way to read it as anything else, and when I found out people were building up theories around it not being so, both my immediate and thought-out responses were derision. And, again, I didn't even think it was funny, which many other people here claim to have done. It is outright ludicrous to say that it being a joke is "impossible" when there is no shortage of people here who see that as easily possible, and to say that they're all just coming up with post-hoc explanations is insulting.

No more insulting than being dismissed as a crackpot theorist with no sense of humor.

[ti'esar]

But Rule of Funny requires that something actually be, well, funny.

Once again: why does "it was a bad joke" not appear to exist as a possibility for you?


No more insulting than being dismissed as a crackpot theorist with no sense of humor.

I think it is, actually. I may be attacking your opinion, but you are attacking the sincerity of everyone who disagrees with you.

And I have neither said nor implied that you have no sense of humor. As I've now said several times, I didn't think it was funny either.

[Carlo]

Once again: why does "it was a bad joke" not appear to exist as a possibility for you?

I've explained this repeatedly and at excessive length, and I don't care to do so yet again.


I think it is, actually. I may be attacking your opinion, but you are attacking the sincerity of everyone who disagrees with you.

And I have neither said nor implied that you have no sense of humor. As I've now said several times, I didn't think it was funny either.

"Post hoc" simply means "after the fact". I've made no comment whatsoever about anyone's sincerity. Regarding being insulted, I wasn't referring only to you.

[ChristianSt]

<long post about people forgetting/knowing about Blackwing more or less random>

Maybe Blackwing is a Schrödinger's familiar.
Any given member of the Order needs to do a quantum measurement to see if they remember him :smallbiggrin:

[Domino Quartz]

Maybe Blackwing is a Schrödinger's familiar.
Any given member of the Order needs to do a quantum measurement to see if they remember him :smallbiggrin:

Darf ich diesen zu meiner Signatur hinzufügen? :smallbiggrin:
Sorry if this is a horrible mangling of the German language. It's been a few months since I did German 101 at Uni.

[Rodin]

That argument is essentially tautological, though. And perhaps more importantly it's extremely presumptive - I never had any urge to "explain" anything. It was obviously a joke, I can't see any way to read it as anything else, and when I found out people were building up theories around it not being so, both my immediate and thought-out responses were derision. And, again, I didn't even think it was funny, which many other people here claim to have done. It is outright ludicrous to say that it being a joke is "impossible" when there is no shortage of people here who see that as easily possible, and to say that they're all just coming up with post-hoc explanations is insulting.

So much this. There's literally no way to construct a debate when the very premise is disagreed upon.

I say with 100% certainty it is a joke, and therefore any theory that comes out of it is utterly baseless and "crackpot theorist".

Others say with 100% certainty that it is not a joke, which then necessitates explanation.

Without agreeing on that very basic point, there's really no reason to continue the discussion. And since that point is inarguable (it either is very obviously a joke, or is very obviously not a joke), there's no way anybody is going to budge.

[Kish]

The irrefutable fact is that Belkar knew of Blackwing's existence since basically the beginning of the comic, but then denied that knowledge later on (and was sincere in his denial, as evidenced by #809). This is an internal contradiction within the comic, full stop. You can reconcile it however you like - Rule of Funny, Belkar simply forgot about Blackwing, bad writing, exposure to the rift - but you can't deny that the contradiction exists.

That's...an interesting claim. So people don't forget things without it being an "internal contradiction"? Even ones who are established as having catastrophically low Wisdom? I guess there is no ambiguity in your mind that Belkar remembered Roy's story about the king giants, that Xykon remembers Roy perfectly and could get his name right whenever he chose, and that each time prior to the arbitrary point you decided something happened to Blackwing that someone said "I don't remember him" in your own quotes they were lying for some reason?

If you can't at least concede on this point, well frankly you're just 100% wrong, and this entire discussion is pointless.

Right back at you.

[jidasfire]

Sigh. I realize throwing my hat into the ring here is probably folly at this point, but I'm going to go down the list and see if I can't outreason this whole idea.

The forgetfulness thing seems oddly selective if it is true. Several people have been exposed to rifts at pretty close range and none of them have been forgotten. For instance, Shojo sent paladins to do a full-on investigation of Lirian's rift. They came back just fine. O-Chul, Redcloak, the goblins and the hostages were pretty darn close to the very rift that supposedly made people forget Blackwing for quite awhile during the interrogation scene. They came back just fine. Roy, Belkar, and Durkon spent a fair bit of time hanging around Girard's rift during the battle with Tarquin's army, and were close enough to look inside, much as Blackwing did at Soon's, and they were just fine. The entire Order of the Scribble spent a ton of time around the rifts, and by no metric does it seem they were forgotten by anyone. So, from the perspective of exposure to the rifts, this theory makes no sense.

Now, as for Blackwing being forgotten by the party, there are plenty of ways to explain it. For one thing, it is possible to remember something at one point, then forget it at another. That's how memory works. You can't forget something you never knew. And remember, the Order had a pretty eventful year spent separated from each other. So it's very possible that a lot of them forgot that someone they hadn't seen in ages had a pet that said person themselves was particularly known for forgetting. And even barring that, it is completely in character for most of the Order to forget anyway. Roy is totally known for being dismissive of people like NPCs, even when they're clearly plot-relevant (see the Deva who was trying to tell him about V or the Cliffport police). It's perfectly in character he'd dismiss a raven he saw in passing maybe once or twice. Haley? Well, we know from the bloody story saying so that she was messing with V, because she's mischievous that way. Elan? He may have grown up a bit, but he still has the IQ of a turnip, or maybe now a smart turnip. Belkar? Belkar forgets things that bore him, and even if he doesn't, he's perfectly willing to lie to get one over on V. Durkon? Well, I don't have an explanation for this one, but I still find the idea that he simply forgot a thousand times more likely than the gymnastics it would take to justify this clearly convoluted and remarkably particular rift-forgetting theory.

Next, there's the foreshadowing problem. Rich uses a fair bit of foreshadowing in his work. Obviously not everything, as there are some whammies, but for the most part, very little comes out of nowhere, especially bits of the tale that would be far-fetched even for fantasy. If something had been obviously up during the forgetting Blackwing bit, V's response would probably have been something like, "My compatriots reaction to my familiar is most unusual. It is as though they do no remember him at all," rather than frustration at their idiocy. Also, it's likely that if the memory thing happened once, it would have happened again to another character, which I have proven it has not.

Not to mention, I've played in long campaigns where I and the other players have forgotten characters more relevant than someone's familiar. Sometimes the DM tries to make someone or something important, and the players just don't notice or care. It happens.

And if all that doesn't convince you, I'll paraphrase O-Chul himself. You find the idea that there is some secret magic, which is highly selective and effects only one character in one specific way and even then not completely and can't be detected at all to be SIMPLER...than the idea that there's no magic there at all?

I await your nitpicks and parsing of my grammar.

[allenw]

The forgetfulness thing seems oddly selective if it is true. Several people have been exposed to rifts at pretty close range and none of them have been forgotten.

The difference with most of your examples is that they didn't actually see inside the Rift (or at least we aren't told that they did). Blackwing did; so did the OotStick.
And Blackwing seems to have been exceptionally affected by doing so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html). He then suffered 6d6 Force damage (no save) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html), and disappeared. When he reappeared a while later, he had changed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)



The entire Order of the Scribble spent a ton of time around the rifts, and by no metric does it seem they were forgotten by anyone.

"Actually, I'm pretty sure that's excatly [sic] what will happen. Isn't that right, Soon?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[orrion]

The difference with most of your examples is that they didn't actually see inside the Rift (or at least we aren't told that they did). Blackwing did; so did the OotStick.
And Blackwing seems to have been exceptionally affected by doing so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html). He then suffered 6d6 Force damage (no save) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html), and disappeared. When he reappeared a while later, he had changed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

What does Blackwing eating an Explosive Runes spell have to do with anything?

He had changed how? By speaking to V? That was a direct result of V changing his outlook and his apology.

Also, like you said, 4 members of the Order looked through the rift and are apparently unchanged. What's that do for your theory?



"Actually, I'm pretty sure that's excatly [sic] what will happen. Isn't that right, Soon?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

That's completely irrelevant. That is Girard being angry that Soon won't make any effort to remember Kraagor and his sacrifice. That is not the rift erasing memories of Kraagor. If the rift had done that the Scribble wouldn't have fought over his death and Serini wouldn't have been able to build a dungeon based on Kraagor's beliefs because she wouldn't have known what they were.

[Keltest]

Regardless of whether they think it was a joke, it baffles me that people can point out that it is internally inconsistent, then immediately respond with a theory that is NOT joke based that is even less internally consistent.

There are numerous examples of characters being in proximity to an open rift (the same one even) and not being affected in the least. At the very least, Xykon has not been erased, and people who have NOT been affected by or interacted with a rift in any way CAN perceive Blackwing, as well as Xykon.

[jidasfire]

I think the problem is that because we're reading a fantasy story, technically anything is possible. Therefore, people can rattle off whatever batty theories wander into their brains and justify them by saying, "Hey, it's not technically impossible, because magic!" But in order for fantasy to have any meaning whatsoever, it has to follow at least some level of internally consistent rules, and D&D is actually built for just that. So sometimes, even if a lot more is possible in the OOTS world than in our own, we have to draw the line at things which take massive amounts of bending both the text and human reason in order to make sense, and I would say that this is one of those.

I'll be generous and assume that people concoct these ideas largely because they love the work and think about it a lot rather than assume they're just scrambling for miniscule internet bragging rights, but I do find it baffling that even when the text itself basically says such theories are wrong, there are still those who will fight to the death to defend them.

[Loreweaver15]

It hasn't, as far as I can recall. But Rule of Funny requires that something actually be, well, funny. I always thought the original Blackwing joke was hilarious (#658 is absolutely one of my all-time favorite strips), the more so because it made absolutely no logical sense. But this new Blackwing gag, to me, just makes no logical OR comedic sense.

Here's the thing: there are plenty of people who thought it was funny. You're basing an entire argument--and your insistence that there must be something going on--on the premise that you didn't find it funny or sensible, and that therefore it must not be a joke, and if you can only reach the heart of the matter you'll figure out what dark secret the Giant is hinting at, a secret you've already said makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's the thing, though: as fantastic a storyteller and comedian Rich is, he is not infallible. Not every joke will strike everyone as funny; not every intentional contradiction for the sake of a chuckle is going to hold the same weight. You're faced with a large number of people who immediately responded to the construct of humor that I described with "oh, haha! That was funny." or even "Oh. Huh, that wasn't all that funny. Moving on." and all recognized it as a joke, and your conclusion is that it can't be a joke, because you're not laughing.

Rich didn't invert his joke because there was a contradiction; Rich made a contradiction because he was inverting his joke.

I invite you to consider these points I've made and reach whatever conclusion you like, but really, that's what we're all telling you: just because you're not laughing doesn't make it not a joke.

[ChristianSt]

Darf ich diesen zu meiner Signatur hinzufügen? :smallbiggrin:
Sorry if this is a horrible mangling of the German language. It's been a few months since I did German 101 at Uni.

You may :smallbiggrin:

(And yes the German is a bit off, but not that much. I at least understood what you wanted :smallwink:. You should use "das" instead of "dieser". "dieser" doesn't make it clear what you refer to. With "das" it is clear that you mean the stuff I posted)

[orrion]

It hasn't, as far as I can recall. But Rule of Funny requires that something actually be, well, funny. I always thought the original Blackwing joke was hilarious (#658 is absolutely one of my all-time favorite strips), the more so because it made absolutely no logical sense. But this new Blackwing gag, to me, just makes no logical OR comedic sense.

Not everything is funny to everyone. I surmise (though I could be wrong) from your comments here, for example, that you laughed in 658 when V remembered Blackwing. Well, guess what - I didn't laugh at all. I didn't even interpret that as a joke.

I've seen people post in discussion threads that a certain joke made them laugh out loud - jokes that got a smile or a chuckle from me or even nothing at all. That doesn't mean that I didn't see the joke or get the reference. It just means that humor is relative.

You can't really base a theory on the idea that you didn't find a particular joke funny. Especially a theory that basically requires reinterpreting every other instance of that joke as something else entirely.

[David Argall]

I say with 100% certainty it is a joke, and therefore any theory that comes out of it is utterly baseless and "crackpot theorist".
We have to classify this as exaggerated, if not completely false. This strip is comedy and everything in it is in one degree or another a joke. Anything in the strip can be a joke, but a great many are not "just" a joke. They contain meaning that affects later strips.



Without agreeing on that very basic point, there's really no reason to continue the discussion. And since that point is inarguable (it either is very obviously a joke, or is very obviously not a joke), there's no way anybody is going to budge.
It is obviously enough it is a joke, but it is not at all obvious it is only a joke.


That's...an interesting claim. So people don't forget things without it being an "internal contradiction"? Even ones who are established as having catastrophically low Wisdom? I guess there is no ambiguity in your mind that Belkar remembered Roy's story about the king giants,
Belkar is well established as liking to rag on Roy, and is clearly doing so by the end of the conversation. That he was doing so at the start of the conversation is not so clear, but we can't dismiss that possibility that he remembered all the way. In any case, we are comparing dimes to dollars. Belkar forgets one fact heard about once vs a fact he has seen and heard dozens of times. [Note too that Belkar says he doesn't see Blacking in 674, which fits the ideas he is trying to get V's goat or something happened, but not the idea Belkar has forgotten anything.] And several other people also suffer memory problems at the same time.



that Xykon remembers Roy perfectly and could get his name right whenever he chose
This is a fact established firmly in text, unlike Belkar's alleged memory problems.



, and that each time prior to the arbitrary point you decided something happened to Blackwing that someone said "I don't remember him" in your own quotes they were lying for some reason?
The point is that they are all saying that at one time, and as far as I can find, at no earlier time.



The forgetfulness thing seems oddly selective if it is true. Several people have been exposed to rifts at pretty close range and none of them have been forgotten.
We can deduct from that that there are major limits on the power, not that the power does not exist. The power would be only short range, and may be require a period of exposure [While X was near the rift, he was not as close as Blackwing for nearly as long], and seems to be temporary, losing effect within a month. That not everybody was affected does not mean nobody was affected. [We can note here that a disease may affect only 1% of those exposed to it, and still be considered infectious.]



it is possible to remember something at one point, then forget it at another. That's how memory works.
Sure, but we are talking Roy, Belkar, Haley, Durkon, and Elan all forgetting the same thing at the same time, and still not remembering when reminded of it. That is getting us into really large numbers.



You can't forget something you never knew.
But we have established they did know, so that possibility has to be crossed out.



And remember, the Order had a pretty eventful year spent separated from each other. So it's very possible that a lot of them forgot that someone they hadn't seen in ages had a pet that said person themselves was particularly known for forgetting.
But all of them?



the gymnastics it would take to justify this clearly convoluted and remarkably particular rift-forgetting theory.
I do not like the theory either, but paid authors have used it, and been paid afterwards by professional editors. That the idea may be stupid does not mean it is not being used here.



Rich uses a fair bit of foreshadowing in his work. Obviously not everything, as there are some whammies, but for the most part, very little comes out of nowhere, especially bits of the tale that would be far-fetched even for fantasy. If something had been obviously up during the forgetting Blackwing bit, V's response would probably have been something like, "My compatriots reaction to my familiar is most unusual. It is as though they do no remember him at all," rather than frustration at their idiocy.
This would be rather blatant foreshadowing. As we can see from the Scoundrel case, it is often not underlined at all. [not that I consider that case to be good foreshadowing, but it still shows there is no need for foreshadowing to shout.]



Also, it's likely that if the memory thing happened once, it would have happened again to another character, which I have proven it has not.
Lots of things have happened only once to one character. Our writer has a dislike of repeating ideas.



Not to mention, I've played in long campaigns where I and the other players have forgotten characters more relevant than someone's familiar.
And the most likely result was that somebody said "what about the forgotten?" and the others say "oh yeah, forgot about him", not "he never happened"



And if all that doesn't convince you, I'll paraphrase O-Chul himself. You find the idea that there is some secret magic, which is highly selective and effects only one character in one specific way and even then not completely and can't be detected at all to be SIMPLER...than the idea that there's no magic there at all?
This would seem to be a pretty close approximation of how diseases were viewed a few centuries ago. The diseases were real anyway.
And we are trying to explain an event here, not the lack of one. They just all forgot may be simpler, but it belongs near the bottom of our list of possible explanations.

[Socksy]

:roach: < Pass the popcorn...

[nabcif]

"Actually, I'm pretty sure that's excatly [sic] what will happen. Isn't that right, Soon?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)
That's completely irrelevant. That is Girard being angry that Soon won't make any effort to remember Kraagor and his sacrifice. That is not the rift erasing memories of Kraagor. If the rift had done that the Scribble wouldn't have fought over his death and Serini wouldn't have been able to build a dungeon based on Kraagor's beliefs because she wouldn't have known what they were.

I believe Gerald's anger wasn't because Soon wasn't going to make an effort to remember Kraagor's sacrifice, but because, worse yet, he was already planning (page 3, panel 1, text box 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)) to have the Sapphire Guard actively destroy all mention of the rifts and gates (and thus, of the sacrifice). (Your actual point, that it isn't about the rift destroying memories, still stands.)

[orrion]

And we are trying to explain an event here, not the lack of one. They just all forgot may be simpler, but it belongs near the bottom of our list of possible explanations.

You've got that backwards. You're not trying to explain an event. You're using a far-fetched interpretation of a singular event as justification to reinterpret multiple other events and then using that interpretation for a theory about the rifts.

I would say that any theory that requires a complete reinterpretation of events through 673 previous comics belongs near the bottom of the list of possible explanations, especially when you need to get increasingly narrow and specific to justify it in light of future events ("oh, they have to be exposed for X length of time," "oh, the power has an extremely short range"). No doubt if there's a comic that shows Tarquin standing in front of the rift with an army before going through, you'll hand wave it by saying the rift didn't have enough power to affect that many people.

At some point the theory just becomes too outrageous to take seriously. This one reached that point a while ago.


I believe Gerald's anger wasn't because Soon wasn't going to make an effort to remember Kraagor's sacrifice, but because, worse yet, he was already planning (page 3, panel 1, text box 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)) to have the Sapphire Guard actively destroy all mention of the rifts and gates (and thus, of the sacrifice). (Your actual point, that it isn't about the rift destroying memories, still stands.)

Possible, but there wasn't even a Sapphire Guard at that point, though I suppose Soon could have envisioned the idea to wipe the records at any point before he actually implemented it.

[nabcif]

Possible, but there wasn't even a Sapphire Guard at that point, though I suppose Soon could have envisioned the idea to wipe the records at any point before he actually implemented it.

That is indeed my impression; that Soon had said something to make Girard realize that's what Soon was planning. I'm not sure why Girard would have said all that (including the angry remark directed to Soon) otherwise.

[allenw]

What does Blackwing eating an Explosive Runes spell have to do with anything?

He had changed how? By speaking to V? That was a direct result of V changing his outlook and his apology.


There was speculation (I know, shocking :smallwink:) at the time he returned that the Explosive Runes had actually killed him, and that he had been replaced by the Snarl/Rift/whatever. Or, as his new relationship with V evolved, that V was, indeed, imagining/creating him, and using him as an externalized conscience (a la Jiminy Cricket).
I don't think that's exactly what's going on; but I don't think either theory has been disproven.
Also: By D&D rules, a familiar pretty much *is* an externalized part of you, so V changing his outlook could directly affect Blackwing (even apart from the mundane route of talking to each other); *and* Blackwing changing could directly affect V.


Also, like you said, 4 members of the Order looked through the rift and are apparently unchanged. What's that do for your theory?
.

It's not "my" theory per se, but the main theory you seem to be arguing against is that they *are* in fact changed, in that (at least some of them) now acknowledge Blackwing again.
So, Blackwing looks through the rift, has a life-altering experience, and people seem to forget him; those same people look through the rift and then seem to start remembering him. It proves nothing, but hints at something.


That's completely irrelevant. That is Girard being angry that Soon won't make any effort to remember Kraagor and his sacrifice.

And that Soon will in fact work to destroy any possible records of it. Which yes, is irrelevant to the "what effect does looking through the Rift have?" question, except that I thought it was an interesting thematic parallel. Plus it was relevant to the claim that "the entire Order of the Scribble spent a ton of time around the rifts, and by no metric does it seem they were forgotten by anyone. "

[Loreweaver15]

And that Soon will in fact work to destroy any possible records of it. Which yes, is irrelevant to the "what effect does looking through the Rift have?" question, except that I thought it was an interesting thematic parallel. Plus it was relevant to the claim that "the entire Order of the Scribble spent a ton of time around the rifts, and by no metric does it seem they were forgotten by anyone. "

More directly, nobody has forgotten Elan, Roy, Haley, or Belkar.

[orrion]

There was speculation (I know, shocking :smallwink:) at the time he returned that the Explosive Runes had actually killed him, and that he had been replaced by the Snarl/Rift/whatever. Or, as his new relationship with V evolved, that V was, indeed, imagining/creating him, and using him as an externalized conscience (a la Jiminy Cricket).
I don't think that's exactly what's going on; but I don't think either theory has been disproven.

I doubt there would have been a dizzy swirl over Blackwing's head if he had been killed by the Explosive Runes. There would have been X's and perhaps Blackwing falling.



Also: By D&D rules, a familiar pretty much *is* an externalized part of you, so V changing his outlook could directly affect Blackwing (even apart from the mundane route of talking to each other); *and* Blackwing changing could directly affect V.

Doesn't seem like that has anything to do with the rift. At all.



It's not "my" theory per se, but the main theory you seem to be arguing against is that they *are* in fact changed, in that (at least some of them) now acknowledge Blackwing again.

Roy and Belkar were both able to perceive Blackwing right after the Linear Guild encounter in Bleedingham, and that was way before they were anywhere near the rift at Girard's gate.



So, Blackwing looks through the rift, has a life-altering experience, and people seem to forget him; those same people look through the rift and then seem to start remembering him. It proves nothing, but hints at something.

Yeah, it hints that some people have a boundless capacity for denial and misinterpretation.

Besides, how come nobody has forgotten the 4 Order members who looked through the gate? Redcloak was able to perceive Roy instantly after they looked through, and Tarquin came in and remembered them all directly after that.




And that Soon will in fact work to destroy any possible records of it. Which yes, is irrelevant to the "what effect does looking through the Rift have?" question, except that I thought it was an interesting thematic parallel. Plus it was relevant to the claim that "the entire Order of the Scribble spent a ton of time around the rifts, and by no metric does it seem they were forgotten by anyone. "

No, it isn't relevant. That claim is refuting the idea of the rift erasing memories. Karaagor being forgotten is a result of Soon's actions rather than the rift doing what people have alleged.

[Kish]

I doubt there would have been a dizzy swirl over Blackwing's head if he had been killed by the Explosive Runes. There would have been X's and perhaps Blackwing falling.
"There was speculation" doesn't mean much. When Blackwing popped into existence when O-Chul and Vaarsuvius needed a way to get the phylactery to the rift, there was a ton of speculation on the board--most of it centered around "In what badass and awesome way will O-Chul and Vaarsuvius expend Vaarsuvius' class feature to deal with this problem? Will Vaarsuvius just order it to fly into the rift with the phylactery, or will O-Chul throw it in?*"

*Don't ask me why throwing Blackwing into the rift was supposed to be easier than just plain throwing the phylactery into the rift.

[Shale]

Birds are aerodynamic?

[allenw]

More directly, nobody has forgotten Elan, Roy, Haley, or Belkar.

Elan, Roy, Haley, and Belkar didn't seem entranced by what they saw, nor did they suffer a near(?)-death experience while doing so. They could have been affected differently.

But to your original point: We don't know that yet. We know that *some* people, who were actively searching for them (or looking at them) at the moment they looked into the Rift, didn't forget them. And even then, Redcloak *did* seem uncharacteristically tongue-tied trying to remember details of Roy's life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html). And MitD only definitely remembered Roy from when Roy was dead.

[Kish]

You know the real reason I hate all this goofy speculation?

It's because actual plot points and character information get casually sacrificed to feed the growth of epileptic trees. Redcloak's "The fighter had, uh, some kind of revenge storyline," instead of being a great big your life isn't important to the villains, Roy flag, is a hint that the rift blasted away Redcloak's memories of how he totally heard Roy explaining his backstory to Xykon, because apparently it makes me unusual that when someone I don't care about is yelling about something I don't care about, I can't remember the details a year later.

[RNGgod]

Christ, even the Redcloak-is-unable-to-outwit-MitD thing is being re-imagined as part of this insane theory? Things are worse than I ever thought.



On the other hand, Kish, I hope you learned a valuable lesson about making "so long insane theory!" topics.

[Gift Jeraff]

First, let's examine Belkar's comments with regard to Blackwing:

Comic #3:
Belkar: Hey, V, don't you have a familiar that grants Alertness?
Vaarsuvius: Hmm? Oh, yes, yes, of course. My raven is right here.
Belkar: See anything?
Vaarsuvius: I do not.
Haley: I didn't know you had a familiar...

Comic #154:
Haley: Hey, V, why don't you send your familiar to scout the camp for him?
Vaarsuvius: My what now?
Haley: Your familiar. The raven?
Belkar: You had him in comic #3.

Comic #674:
Vaarsuvius: I refer to my raven familiar, Blackwing [...]
Roy: ... Your what now?
Belkar: You have a familiar? When did you get a familiar?

The irrefutable fact is that Belkar knew of Blackwing's existence since basically the beginning of the comic, but then denied that knowledge later on (and was sincere in his denial, as evidenced by #809). This is an internal contradiction within the comic, full stop. You can reconcile it however you like - Rule of Funny, Belkar simply forgot about Blackwing, bad writing, exposure to the rift - but you can't deny that the contradiction exists. If you can't at least concede on this point, well frankly you're just 100% wrong, and this entire discussion is pointless.

2 things about this:

-Belkar's callback to strip #3 is a fourth wall breaking gag. These have a tendency to break the internal logic of the comic. See: the OOTS being treated as actors in #277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).
-The gap between #3 and #154 is a few weeks, maybe a month tops. The gap between #154 and #674 is over a year.

[Kish]

On the other hand, Kish, I hope you learned a valuable lesson about making "so long insane theory!" topics.
If you reread my OP, you'll see that it actually says "who am I kidding," so, alas, no. That particular valuable lesson was one the forum in general taught me years ago.

[orrion]

Elan, Roy, Haley, and Belkar didn't seem entranced by what they saw, nor did they suffer a near(?)-death experience while doing so. They could have been affected differently.

They saw an ocean, Blackwing saw a planet. There's yout "affected differently" right there. Moreover, Redcloak attacked pretty much immediately.



But to your original point: We don't know that yet. We know that *some* people, who were actively searching for them (or looking at them) at the moment they looked into the Rift, didn't forget them.

Ah, so now it's gone from "The rift erases memories" to "the rift erases memories if someone is in close proximity and if they stay there for a long period of time and if someone else isn't actively looking for them." Seriously, how many "ifs" need to be tacked on before you realize how silly that sounds?



And even then, Redcloak *did* seem uncharacteristically tongue-tied trying to remember details of Roy's life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html). And MitD only definitely remembered Roy from when Roy was dead.

MiTD isn't the brightest student in the class and the ONLY time he's seen Roy not dead is way back in Dorukan's dungeon. I like how the MiTD remembering his most recent interactions is somehow a net positive of your theory while everyone else forgetting the most recent encounter is also somehow still a net positive. Both of those can't be supportive.

Redcloak - same thing, really. The only time he heard those details was way back in the dungeon of Dorukan. It's not some conspiracy that he can't remember shouted angry statements he probably wasn't paying all that much attention to because he expected the guy to be dead in a few minutes.

[Rodin]

I still don't think anyone from the Rift-theory side has addressed the initial failure of their theory that Blackwing was "suddenly" forgotten about in 674. That failure is that there are dozens if not hundreds of times prior to that the members of the Order (possibly including Haley) have forgotten about Blackwing.

Just for one example, 554. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html) In this comic, Vaarsuvius, Elan, Diego, and Durkon all forget that V has a familiar.

What's that you say? Blackwing isn't in that comic?

EXACTLY.


:vaarsuvius: Ah, right, of course. My trusted familiar is right here by my side, as he has been this entire time.

Every time you see a strip with Vaarsuvius but not Blackwing? That's V forgetting Blackwing. Every time you see a strip with V and someone else? That's both of them forgetting Blackwing. It's possible that they are seeing him and not mentioning him, but if you apply that logic you have to apply it to comic 674 as well.

The comic I linked is especially egregious in this regard - V needs a BIRD who can relay information. V already HAS a BIRD who can relay information, and is a darn sight better trained than some random parakeets.

If the Order is supposed to be remembering Blackwing here, why does nobody say anything about this? What a contradiction!

Blackwing has been consistently forgotten about for 500 comics prior to his Rift experience.

Or are we now saying the Rift applies retro-actively?

[allenw]

Christ, even the Redcloak-is-unable-to-outwit-MitD thing is being re-imagined as part of this insane theory? Things are worse than I ever thought.

Well, it hadn't occurred to me until right before I posted, but if the shoe fits...
Note that, while I do actually think that there's something going on with Blackwing that we don't yet understand, I don't actually think that Redcloak rolling a "1" on Diplomacy had anything to do with the Rift. But people keep on making these absolute statements (No-one forgot the OotScribble! Everyone remembers the OotStick!) that aren't fully supported by the available evidence. It's not like you can just ignore someone being wrong on the Internet.


On the other hand, Kish, I hope you learned a valuable lesson about making "so long insane theory!" topics.

I prefer to believe that, by the standards of this forum, the theory that "something's up with Blackwing and the Rifts" is merely mildly eccentric. :smallsmile:

Someone earlier questioned the motivations of those who support this (or similar) theories. I can speak only for myself, but I'm not someone who jumps on every passing forum fad, either to support or to debunk. Nor am I a very frequent poster. I only bother arguing in support of speculation that I honestly think is both plausible and interesting. Up until now, I think my record was 1 confirmed (Malack is a vampire); 1 partially confirmed (Elan Sent to Julio, though not also to his mother); 1 all but busted (Haley is probably not part-Celestial), and 1 insufficient data (is MitD something that Rich had a hand in creating, though not for this strip?)

[allenw]

I still don't think anyone from the Rift-theory side has addressed the initial failure of their theory that Blackwing was "suddenly" forgotten about in 674. That failure is that there are dozens if not hundreds of times prior to that the members of the Order (possibly including Haley) have forgotten about Blackwing.

By the nature of the universe (bad D&D tropes + Rule of Funny), Blackwing actually only existed when people remembered him (V's embarrassed denial to the contrary). However, when he existed, everyone remembered and recognized him.

In 674, he existed, and V remembered him, but nobody else did. Or else he *didn't* really exist, but V (and only V) thought he did. Neither of these is similar to (or the reverse of) his prior appearances (and lack thereof).
Was 674, and its followups, a joke? Of course (and in my opinion a successful one). The question is, was it *only* a joke?

The answer is something we can't determine by argument; we'll have to wait and see.

[Sir_Leorik]

Honestly, I think all of these attempts to explain why the joke was funny are missing the point. Humor is subjective, and frankly I didn't think it was funny myself. But what really annoyed me about this "theory" was the way it was predicated on the idea that any joke that isn't funny must be a SECRET PLOT HINT. That's the mindset I really wish this forum could lose.


You know the real reason I hate all this goofy speculation?

It's because actual plot points and character information get casually sacrificed to feed the growth of epileptic trees. Redcloak's "The fighter had, uh, some kind of revenge storyline," instead of being a great big your life isn't important to the villains, Roy flag, is a hint that the rift blasted away Redcloak's memories of how he totally heard Roy explaining his backstory to Xykon, because apparently it makes me unusual that when someone I don't care about is yelling about something I don't care about, I can't remember the details a year later.

You know what? I think that the only way to nip this nonsense in the bud right now is to Ignore anyone who proposes that "Blackwing was affected by looking into the Rift and that's why everyone is ignoring him." :smalltongue:

[Loreweaver15]

You know what? I think that the only way to nip this nonsense in the bud right now is to Ignore anyone who proposes that "Blackwing was affected by looking into the Rift and that's why everyone is ignoring him." :smalltongue:

Ignore anyone who's doing what now?

[orrion]

Well, it hadn't occurred to me until right before I posted, but if the shoe fits...
Note that, while I do actually think that there's something going on with Blackwing that we don't yet understand, I don't actually think that Redcloak rolling a "1" on Diplomacy had anything to do with the Rift. But people keep on making these absolute statements (No-one forgot the OotScribble! Everyone remembers the OotStick!) that aren't fully supported by the available evidence. It's not like you can just ignore someone being wrong on the Internet.

Good misrepresentations. Seriously, they're stellar.

Unfortunately, the FULL argument with regard to the Scribblers was "Nobody forgot the Order of the Scribble because of the rift erasing memories."

Likewise, the actual stance of "Everyone remembers the Order of the Stick" is applied as a counter to the rift erasing memories. It doesn't matter that Redcloak can't remember all the details and the MiTD only mentioned the most recent of 2 encounters he's had with Roy. The fact that they remember anything at all counters the (ironically) absolute statement that the rift erases all memories.


By the nature of the universe (bad D&D tropes + Rule of Funny), Blackwing actually only existed when people remembered him (V's embarrassed denial to the contrary). However, when he existed, everyone remembered and recognized him.

Question: On what grounds is V's "embarrassed denial to the contrary" being dismissed as evidence?



In 674, he existed, and V remembered him, but nobody else did. Or else he *didn't* really exist, but V (and only V) thought he did. Neither of these is similar to (or the reverse of) his prior appearances (and lack thereof).
Was 674, and its followups, a joke? Of course (and in my opinion a successful one). The question is, was it *only* a joke?

Considering nobody can make an argument that it isn't only a joke without a dozen holes or hand waves in it, yes, I'm going to go with only a joke.

[Loreweaver15]

Reading the discussion thread for 943, I came across this gem, presented in summation of the arguments in this topic:


A) I don't like what just happened in OotS
B) Rich is a good writer
C) A Good Writer Wouldn't do "X"
D) Since Rich is a Good Writer, he can't possibly really have done "X"
E) Therefore something else is going on here.

It is brilliantly summed up in the phrase "Rich is a better writer than that".

In which the tendency of people to read too much into things is neatly and succinctly laid out.

[Porthos]

Reading the discussion thread for 943, I came across this gem, presented in summation of the arguments in this topic:



In which the tendency of people to read too much into things is neatly and succinctly laid out.

*bows* :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

Let us look at the general case here for a bit. We have 4 basic theories.
Author joke. The characters are serious and did forget.
PC joke. Haley and others were just having fun with V.
Rift/other. Blackwing has been affected by something.
Nothing happened. The PCs never remembered Blackwing worth beans anyway.

If the writer was making a joke, the follow-up strips are a problem. None are that concerned with being funny and the Haley comments deny author involvement.
A PC plot to joke with V seems too complicated and conflicting. It requires the involvement of those who would not want to joke. It also means that Belkar did not forget, in which case, his forgetting in 809 is a problem.
But if Belkar did forget, we have other problems. The list of PCs noticing Blackwing is long, given he is a minor character who was off-stage nearly the entire time. How did all of them forget him at the same time?
So we come back to this being a real event, possibly foreshadowing. The chief objections amount to saying the theory is not complete, but we should not expect it to be complete. There are lots of thing neither we nor the party knows just yet and the rift is chief among them.

By our current knowledge, there will be 2 more books, but the final gate will be hard put to even fill one of them. We could reach the gate almost the next page. Padding it enough to fill 2 books seems very unlikely.
So we have the theory that book 6 will be the struggle for the last gate, and will end with the party pulled into the rift. [which helps with Belkar predictions as well] Book 7 will be exploring the rift world.
And a chapter where the party loses their memories has good potential. [Belkar and V forget their past and swear full friendship, until they get their memories back.] So the rift may cause them to forget some or all, and some foreshadowing is in order. [And maybe Blackwing, having earlier been exposed, is now immune, and can rescue the party.]

[Loreweaver15]

I think you're reading a different webcomic than I am, David, because every instance of the party ignoring Blackwing in the entire history of the comic has concerned itself with being funny.

Whether you found it funny or not.

[orrion]

Let us look at the general case here for a bit. We have 4 basic theories.
Author joke. The characters are serious and did forget.
PC joke. Haley and others were just having fun with V.
Rift/other. Blackwing has been affected by something.
Nothing happened. The PCs never remembered Blackwing worth beans anyway.

If the writer was making a joke, the follow-up strips are a problem. None are that concerned with being funny and the Haley comments deny author involvement.
A PC plot to joke with V seems too complicated and conflicting. It requires the involvement of those who would not want to joke. It also means that Belkar did not forget, in which case, his forgetting in 809 is a problem.
But if Belkar did forget, we have other problems. The list of PCs noticing Blackwing is long, given he is a minor character who was off-stage nearly the entire time. How did all of them forget him at the same time?
So we come back to this being a real event, possibly foreshadowing. The chief objections amount to saying the theory is not complete, but we should not expect it to be complete. There are lots of thing neither we nor the party knows just yet and the rift is chief among them.

First question - why are you treating those 4 "theories" as mutually exclusive?

Second question - why is it so hard to acknowledge that a) Rule of Funny trumps everything and b) not everyone will find the same things funny and just because you don't doesn't mean that it wasn't a joke.

Knowledge of the Rift(s) might be hidden, but my sanity requires that I leave it hidden rather than entertain this idea:

"The Rift(s) may or may not do something to someone's memories based on proximity to the rift without a known proximity, the longevity of that proximity without a known time for the longevity, the number of people at the rift, and whether someone else is thinking of that person or interacting with that person during the time of the proximate exposure."

That's completely worthless. It tells us nothing.



So we have the theory that book 6 will be the struggle for the last gate, and will end with the party pulled into the rift. Book 7 will be exploring the rift world.

Fine and dandy. None of it requires that the Rift(s) have some special ability to wipe out memories based on a bunch of nebulous and far-fetched ideas. I even agree that the Rift-world will have a role somehow.

Don't try and connect the two ideas, though. It just doesn't work.

[Chantelune]

Regarding the OotS and TE having "trouble" remembering them (even though redcloack remembered the relevant details just fine : busted Xykon, then killed by him)... How do you guys explain, then, that Team Tarquin did remember them all, that Julio and the mechane's crew remembered Elan (instead of just wondering "why the hell did they go that way already ? Lets just turn back and do something else") and even Ian and the bounty hunters remember them ?

[rbetieh]

You know, this thread is starting to remind me of the last two panels of this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) Although I still haven't decided who here is Lawful and who is Chaotic.

For my part, the Giant has done many things I expected and many other things I did not expect at all, so now I neither believe nor disbelieve any theory. Heck, this is the comic where Roy beat a raging barbarian by drawing the conclusion that simply because Thog had taked 2 levels of Fighter, he must be a dungeoncrasher variant barbarian and therefore he could use that knowledge and some basic understanding of architecture to beat him. Seriously, who could have predicted that? Answers on a postcard, please.

[Rodin]

Because apparently, the 30-ish seconds that Blackwing spent in front of the Rift is longer than the 30-ish seconds that the Order spent in front of the Rift.

Maybe using the same timer they put on Hollywood bombs.

Edit: Ninja'd. My post is in response to Chantelune.

[Loreweaver15]

You know, this thread is starting to remind me of the last two panels of this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) Although I still haven't decided who here is Lawful and who is Chaotic.

For my part, the Giant has done many things I expected and many other things I did not expect at all, so now I neither believe nor disbelieve any theory. Heck, this is the comic where Roy beat a raging barbarian by drawing the conclusion that simply because Thog had taked 2 levels of Fighter, he must be a dungeoncrasher variant barbarian and therefore he could use that knowledge and some basic understanding of architecture to beat him. Seriously, who could have predicted that? Answers on a postcard, please.

Uh...the people who noticed he was using dungeoncrashing abilities to smash Roy though the walls of the Arena, which abilities he formulated a plan around? :P

[Rodin]

There's also a difference between theories which are simply unlikely (Roy beating Thog by bringing a roof on his head when he's fighting in an area without a roof), theories on which we have no data (The Snarl is dead, it's our world through the Rift, yadda yadda), and theories which have been thoroughly debunked using in-comic information (a.k.a., this one).

When step 1 of a theory is "re-define the rules of the universe so that it works", you're going to get a lot of really weird looks if you propose it as a credible theory.

My pet theory is that the final battle will be in Xykon's Astral Fortress. However, I acknowledge that the likelihood is extremely small and further acknowledge that there is zero evidence suggesting it will happen that way and plentiful evidence suggesting it won't. There's no reason (currently) for it to happen that way other than Rule of Cool, but it is plausible that some unforeseen event would make Xykon retreat there. We simply don't know.

The problem with the Rift-erasing-memories theory is much the same - there is zero evidence suggesting that is what is happening and plentiful evidence suggesting that it isn't. The trouble is that it is also implausible for it to be true, because of the dozens of plot holes that open up that cause the entire plot of the comic to simply not make sense without convuluted, multi-page explanations and ret-cons.

Could it happen? Sure. But it's actually significantly less likely than my Astral Fortress theory, and the idea that we can use current information to point a "smoking gun" at it is patently absurd, just as it's absurd using current information to definitively say "Astral Fortress Final Dungeon".

[Kish]

theories on which we have no data (... it's our world through the Rift,

Actually, we have "Rich explicitly said it isn't" for that one.

[Liliet]

Wow, this is actually a thread where I don't agree with a single poster. Didn't know that could happen.

First of all, Rule of Funny doesn't trample everything. It tramples a lot of things, but there are a lot of things that shouldn't be sacrificed for a joke, or the overall story will suffer. "Rule of Funny tramples everything", stated this way, is plainly untrue. The story needs some internal consistent rules that jokes operate within.

Second, the theory of rift causing forgetfulness in itself is not ridiculous or far-fetched. That depends on a point-of-view, of course, but just as people have a right to say "if it wasn't funny to you doesn't mean it wasn't a joke", other people have a right to say "if you don't believe in this theory doesn't mean the very idea is ridiculousbadwrong", and even "if the theory is wrong doesn't mean the very idea had been ridiculousbadwrong" all along. The number of if's before the description of effect is natural when describing any complex phenomenon. Maybe there is a gradient of effectiveness and factors influencing this. This is really plausible and there are a lot of real-life effects that can be described as "x happens, if y and z and many other things".


However, there is really no need for such a theory to explain why party doesn't remember Blackwing now even though they used to.

The first several hundred strips, within the span of which everyone but V consistently remembered Blackwing, took in-comic what? one week? two weeks? At the start Belkar was the one to remember V had a familiar; this doesn't mean he knows a lot about wizards' class features or is interested in familiars. This means Blackwing was mentioned earlier, maybe a day or two before - hell, maybe V when introducing virself to the party remembered to mention what familiar ve had, and Belkar happened to remember this. People can remember things pretty randomly. And then he forgot, because it wasn't interesting to him. Remembered it for a short while, and then forgot.
To Durkon the bird was never relevant. He healed it once, sure, but healing is what cleric does. If he remembered every Cure X Wounds he cast, he'd have long gone crazy.
Elan is a goof who can honestly forgot anything.
Roy never actually knew about Blackwing. That one time Haley mentioned him? Nothing happened. Which is to say, something happened for _V_, but Roy didn't notice that, and I doubt V ever brought it up.
Haley, as the one trained to pay attention to small details, remember them and piece them together - you know, a rogue with high Spot and Search skills - remembered Blackwing; and she had an additional reason to remember him, because it's not every day that you give someone a name. Seeing a random raven - whatever. Naming him - that's something to remember.

And then there was a half a year time skip. And war. And Roy's death. And everything else. Elan and Durkon have been with V the whole time and didn't see Blackwing even once, no wonder they forgot about his existance. Roy, as I have already mentioned, didn't know about Blackwing in the first place. Belkar... well, as a ranger (i.e. someone who pay attentions to specifically animals) and someone who last saw V not much later than he last saw Blackwing, could have remembered, like Haley, but I wouldn't put it past him to gladly mess with both V's and Roy's heads.

So it would actually be pretty weird if everyone _did_ remember Blackwing. Elan and Roy remembering him would be straight-up implausible, Durkon and Belkar could remember or not, and Haley has just admitted to messing with V's head.


As for "thought he was an illusion" - the whole point of illusion is that you can mistake it for the real thing. There isn't some visible difference between a live raven and an illusionary raven that everyone supposedly noticed and pointed out; Roy saw a live raven and thought he was an illusion, because it was more plausible that the raven having actually been with them the whole time and no-one remembering him (Haley did remember, but didn't admit to it, so Roy was pretty justified in thinking V was just being weird).


With the situation taken apart from the context, I'd readily believe the "snarl makes everyone forget about one's existence", it's a pretty popular trope and a fun one at that. However, in context, Occam's razor tells us that no, it most probably didn't happen. Or maybe it did and Rich is just messing with our heads? Who knows!

[orrion]

Wow, this is actually a thread where I don't agree with a single poster. Didn't know that could happen.

First of all, Rule of Funny doesn't trample everything. It tramples a lot of things, but there are a lot of things that shouldn't be sacrificed for a joke, or the overall story will suffer. "Rule of Funny tramples everything", stated this way, is plainly untrue. The story needs some internal consistent rules that jokes operate within.

When I say Rule of Funny trumps everything I'm referring to the Giant himself. I don't have time to find the quote right now, but there was one where he listed the "order of importance," if you will. If I'm remembering correctly, jokes topped the list.

Whether you agree with that is something else entirely.

You are correct in that the Giant probably won't sacrifice everything for a joke. However, that's a 2 way street. It's equally unlikely that the Giant would take a series of events that were clearly jokes and turn them into a significant plot point when it makes the story suffer. The inconsistencies with this theory do just that.

[Sir_Leorik]

Let's look at all of Blackwing's appearances prior to book Five:

Blackwing first appears in comic #3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) Belkar asks V is she has a familiar, to gain the bonus feat Alertness (a purely mechanical bonus to Spot and Listen checks). V responds, "Oh, yes, yes. Of course. My raven is right here." Blackwing (who doesn't even have a name yet) pops in for two panels, and pops away in the third. The joke is that V forgot she had a Familiar, even though she needed the mechanical bonuses a Familiar grants until Belkar prompted her. As soon as the skill check Blackwing was needed for was resolved, V immediately forgot about Blackwing.

Blackwing next appears in comic #154. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) Haley asks V to send her Familiar to scout on the bandit camp. V asks "My what now?"

:haley: "Your Familiar. The raven."

:belkar: "You had him in comic #3"

So now we have a running gag (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningGag) about Vaarsuvius forgetting about her Familiar, while Haley and Belkar (who were in comic #3) have to remind V about him. Also in comic #154, Haley names Blackwing. This is important to remember.

In comic #155, Durkon is asked to heal Blackwing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) As soon as Blackwing is healed, he disappears, much to Durkon's surprise. We also learn in comic #155 that Blackwing refuses to speak Common because he feels it is demeaning.

Blackwing next pops up in comic #178. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html) As a result of a Baleful Polymorph, Vaarsuvius has been turned into a purple lizard. Everyone in the party is uncertain about where V has gone, much to the Elf's consternation. Haley mentions sending Blackwing to scout ahead to Roy.

:roy: "Who?"
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/v-lizard.png "Who?"

Haley explains to Roy that Blackwing is V's familiar.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/v-lizard.png "Wait! No! Don't mention --"

Blackwing pops in behind Roy's back, and proceeds to chase V for the remainder of comic #178, until V reaches the safety of Roy's boots in comic #179, at which point Blackwing pops away.

Blackwing next shows up in comic #232 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0232.html), enjoying a spot of tea with Banjo, Elan's Lute, Belkar's riding dachshund, and the cat, rat and otter from Roy's Bag of Tricks. This is clearly Rule of Funny.

In comic #271, Blackwing testifies against the Order. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html) This is part of a montage of witnesses including Saangwan, a deceased Goblin, a Demon Roach, some farmer, the psychiatrist from Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html) and a Flumph. This comic is the first time Roy has ever seen Blackwing. Other than V shouting "Curse you treacherous avian!" there is no indication that Roy should recognize Blackwing.

In addition, the only way that Blackwing can actually know about Elan blowing up the Gate is if he'd been there... which proves that whenever Blackwing pops away, he doesn't go anywhere, he's just being ignored by V and the rest of the Order.

Blackwing pays The Oracle to help him find a way to get V to remember him, in comic #331. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) However, Roy's back is to both The Oracle and Blackwing, and anyway there's a memory charm around Sunken Valley; unless you teleport in or out, you forget everything that happened in the Valley, except the answers the Oracle spoke in his Trance.

In comic #440, V, facing certain death at the hands of the Death Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) calls upon Blackwing to distract the Death Knight so V can escape. Blackwing balks, and pops away. This is the last time Blackwing appears until the end of Don't Split the Party. It's also the first time we see Blackwing's antagonism for mammals, which is later expressed as his solidarity with dinosaurs (who are related to avians). Nobody else in the party is watching this incident.

Once Blackwing reappears in the climax of DStP, he only pops away once. Thus, the running gag ends, only to be replaced with a new running gag, namely the rest of the party have gone so long without seeing Blackwing that they've forgotten him.

Haley's reveal that she was joking in #674 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html) is an example of a Brick Joke (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke). Maybe that's why some people are so adamant that there's more here than meets the eye: they amount of time between comics #674 and 943 might be throwing them for a loop. (Never mind that #942 also ended with a Brick Joke, but whatever...)

[David Argall]

every instance of the party ignoring Blackwing in the entire history of the comic has concerned itself with being funny.

Everything in the comic is concerned with being funny. They are just not exclusively concerned with it. And the Blackwing strips seem to fit this pattern, trying to be funny, but sometimes having additional goal which can be more important.


why are you treating those 4 "theories" as mutually exclusive?
I'm not. But theories have consequences that conflict with other theories. For example, if the party was joking with V, they remembered Blackwing, and so a claim they just naturally forgot is at odds with the theory they are joking.



why is it so hard to acknowledge that a) Rule of Funny trumps everything
Irrelevant. The rule of funny does not say that if X is funny, it has no serious meaning. It merely says X does not have to have serious meaning. Whether or not 674 is funny does not tell us whether it has meaning future strips will pay attention to.



Knowledge of the Rift(s) might be hidden, but my sanity requires that I leave it hidden rather than entertain this idea:
That's completely worthless. It tells us nothing.
Now I have already said the idea is insane and should not be used. But, as I pointed out, it has been used by professional writers, and approved by professional editors, who gave the writers checks instead of demands for rewriting, and does not seem to have caused howls of anger among the readers. I am perfectly willing to say they are all wrong, but I can't say in the teeth of this evidence that our writer might not do the same thing.



Don't try and connect the two ideas, though. It just doesn't work.
Why not? There is a major chance it won't happen because the plot might go in a completely different direction, but why can't it happen?


How do you guys explain, then, that Team Tarquin did remember them all, that Julio and the mechane's crew remembered Elan (instead of just wondering "why the hell did they go that way already ? Lets just turn back and do something else")
Little Johnny comes down with some disease. The doc says he got it from playing with a sick kid. If you object that Sue, Billy, Sam, & Jo didn't get sick, he will just shrug and maybe say something about luck. He does not change the diagnosis.
Same thing applies here. All sorts of possible reasons the others were not forgotten. We don't need any sort of explanation of why they were spared. We need details on how it has affected Blackwing and the party.



The problem with the Rift-erasing-memories theory is much the same - there is zero evidence suggesting that is what is happening and plentiful evidence suggesting that it isn't. The trouble is that it is also implausible for it to be true, because of the dozens of plot holes that open up that cause the entire plot of the comic to simply not make sense without convuluted, multi-page explanations and ret-cons.

Actually, we already have the plot holes, and the theory is trying to plug them. People had known Blackwing perfectly well now don't. Plot hole. Something made them forget is an attempt to plug that, just as in they were joking, or it wasn't that hard to forget.



The first several hundred strips, within the span of which everyone but V consistently remembered Blackwing, took in-comic what? one week? two weeks?
More like 2 months.



Belkar ... Durkon ...Elan ...Roy...Haley...
Now we have a multistep combination, any one which can ruin the idea. They must each forget or whatever. Only if each does is this viable. And each step is no better than not impossible. Even Elan, possibly our strongest step, remembers Blackwing in 232. Why should we assume he forgot later?



Elan and Durkon have been with V the whole time and didn't see Blackwing even once,
They are not pictured as seeing him, but the Oracle and the hotel both show us that Blackwing exists at other times. So the presumption is more like they saw him daily.



Belkar... I wouldn't put it past him to gladly mess with both V's and Roy's heads.
But as mentioned before, in 809, he is completely ignorant. If your theory requires Belkar to forget, unforget, and forget, it's time for a new theory.



So it would actually be pretty weird if everyone _did_ remember Blackwing.
But it is also weird that nobody remembered him.



Roy saw a live raven and thought he was an illusion, because it was more plausible that the raven having actually been with them the whole time
It is more plausible that your honest companion is lying?, and backing the lie up with magic for unknown reasons? That this is not a bird when that can happen very easily?



#232 This is clearly Rule of Funny.
Which does not preclude it being real.



#271 Other than V shouting "Curse you treacherous avian!" there is no indication that Roy should recognize Blackwing.
There is no solid proof, but the statement is a full indication.



#331 Roy's back is to both The Oracle and Blackwing, and anyway there's a memory charm around Sunken Valley; unless you teleport in or out, you forget everything that happened in the Valley, except the answers the Oracle spoke in his Trance.
You forget most things, not all. Roy and Durkon still remember some other things. But since Roy remembers the answers, he remembers Blackwing being answered.



the running gag ends, only to be replaced with a new running gag, namely the rest of the party have gone so long without seeing Blackwing that they've forgotten him.
No such idea is mentioned, or supported. We have more support for the idea that the party can't even see Blackwing.

Haley's reveal that she was joking in #674 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html) is an example of a Brick Joke (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke). [/QUOTE]
If so, it was a very badly done one. A brick joke is... buildup....long pause...punchline. There is the long pause here, but while some question the quality of 674, it is way funnier than 943, meaning we have punchline ... pause ... explanation [which is routinely bad for humor as well.] Indeed, 943 can be read as entirely serious with no joke intended.

[The Linker]

While no webcomic's story has enraptured me to the point where I've purchased all the books, a calendar, and a friggin' fridge magnet like Order of the Stick -- I think this one instance where people are just thinking too highly of him. Or simply misrepresenting his chain of importance in regards to rule of funny vs. plot coherence.

The simplest and most plausible explanation, to me, is:

#674: "Hey, it'd be pretty funny to have everyone forget Blackwing just like V spent the rest of the comic's run forgetting about Blackwing."

#943: "I want to integrate Blackwing into the party more. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

No matter what reason you think the party ignored Blackwing before, Haley saying something about why she was acknowledging Blackwing now needed to be done. He can't just give no explanation, or that'd be even weirder. This was a quick and easy explanation that -- to most -- didn't raise any questions. It's just a couple panels that serve like a switch between 'Blackwing is ignored by everyone' to 'Blackwing is treated like an actual character now.'

The joke that they were all denying Blackwing's existence also makes it easier to justify why Blackwing wouldn't, say, just tell Roy what he saw in the rift. It allows Blackwing to serve as someone for Vaarsuvius to talk to who won't tell the rest of the party anything -- even the really important, relevant-to-their-quest stuff.


I'm not. But theories have consequences that conflict with other theories. For example, if the party was joking with V, they remembered Blackwing, and so a claim they just naturally forgot is at odds with the theory they are joking.

I believe that he was referring to the fact that you present 'the characters did forget' and the 'the characters are playing a joke' as if the answer could not be 'some of them forgot and some of them are playing a joke.' Which is exactly what happened (when you take the latest strip at face value) with Haley and Elan.

[orrion]

I'm not. But theories have consequences that conflict with other theories. For example, if the party was joking with V, they remembered Blackwing, and so a claim they just naturally forgot is at odds with the theory they are joking.


Again, why does everyone have to be joking or everyone have to forget or what have you?

(Note: Not necessarily definitive, except for Haley)

Haley - Joking.

Roy - Dead serious.

Belkar - Forgot.

Elan - Stupid.

Durkon - Forgot.


Seriously, how many games have you been in where everyone always remembers every detail of characters they've met once or twice or abilities of other players in the party they've only seen once or twice or hell even abilities of their own classes?



Now I have already said the idea is insane and should not be used. But, as I pointed out, it has been used by professional writers, and approved by professional editors, who gave the writers checks instead of demands for rewriting, and does not seem to have caused howls of anger among the readers. I am perfectly willing to say they are all wrong, but I can't say in the teeth of this evidence that our writer might not do the same thing.

Professional writers have written stories about ships in space that can travel through dimensions. That doesn't mean there's a high probability of the Giant bringing ships in space that can travel through dimensions into this story.



Why not? There is a major chance it won't happen because the plot might go in a completely different direction, but why can't it happen?

It could, in the same way that the party could go to Xykon's fortress eventually or that Serini could still be alive. There's no proof for any of it, though.



Little Johnny comes down with some disease. The doc says he got it from playing with a sick kid. If you object that Sue, Billy, Sam, & Jo didn't get sick, he will just shrug and maybe say something about luck. He does not change the diagnosis.

At least there's actual evidence of the disease in that case.



Actually, we already have the plot holes, and the theory is trying to plug them. People had known Blackwing perfectly well now don't. Plot hole. Something made them forget is an attempt to plug that, just as in they were joking, or it wasn't that hard to forget.

A theory that's trying to fix an (alleged) inconsistency shouldn't introduce more inconsistency. That kind of defeats the purpose.



But it is also weird that nobody remembered him.

Haley did.




Haley's reveal that she was joking in #674 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html) is an example of a Brick Joke (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke).
If so, it was a very badly done one. A brick joke is... buildup....long pause...punchline. There is the long pause here, but while some question the quality of 674, it is way funnier than 943, meaning we have punchline ... pause ... explanation [which is routinely bad for humor as well.] Indeed, 943 can be read as entirely serious with no joke intended.

All relative. 8-Bit Theater had a couple 10+ year brick jokes. I didn't find the punchline of one of them funny, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a brick joke. You have to stop basing this stuff solely on your interpretation.

[Sir_Leorik]

Again, why does everyone have to be joking or everyone have to forget or what have you?

(Note: Not necessarily definitive, except for Haley)

Haley - Joking.

Roy - Dead serious.

Belkar - Forgot.

Elan - Stupid.

Durkon - Forgot.


Seriously, how many games have you been in where everyone always remembers every detail of characters they've met once or twice or abilities of other players in the party they've only seen once or twice or hell even abilities of their own classes?

While The Giant has said on multiple occasions that the Order is not representing a group of roleplayers sitting in someone's basement or dorm room playing D&D (and for the record, I have no reason to challenge that), the reactions of the members of the Order in comic #674 actually do line up with the way certain people play the game. So the following is all a hypothetical discussion; there are no players, only characters.

Roy's player is a serious roleplayer. His PC, Roy, has never seen Blackwing except at the trial scene, and there were a lot of witnesses there, so he would have his PC question why V is wearing a crow on his shoulder, despite the fact that Roy's player knows full well that V has a Familiar.

Haley's player is a more lighthearted roleplayer. She has Haley latch on to Roy's confusion and uses it as the opportunity of a lifetime to prank V's player. After all, her PC named Blackwing, so how could she disavow any knowledge of him? Easy, she's Bluffing and passing notes to the DM.

Elan's player is something of a Loonie; he's the sort of player that Mr. Welch has been told by the DM to stop emulating. The player may have honestly forgotten about Blackwing, he may be colluding with Haley's player, he may have decided to pull the same prank independently or he may have concluded that Blackwing's exposure to the Rift erased the knowledge of Blackwing from his PC's mind, despite the DM insisting otherwise.

Belkar's player is a Real Man. He honestly only cares about combat. He has a boring job, and on the weekends he unwinds by playing a homicidal Halfling in his best friend's campaign. He doesn't care about courtly intrigue in Azure City, Roy's quest to fulfill his father's blood oath (except the part where he gets to kill something), Haley's drama with her dad, or the deal with the Gates. While the Order was on trial for their lives, Belkar's player went AWOL to fight Miko. Early on Belkar's player tried to remind other players like Durkon and V what their class features were, but he gave that up in favor of hassling them. Belkar's player has forgotten more details about the campaign setting than the DM has actually invested in it, so it's not surprising he wouldn't remember Blackwing.

Durkon's player is new to D&D, and is something of an introvert. He forgets his class and racial features, he's bad at math and until his PC became a Vampire he wasn't that invested in the campaign. So he forgot about Blackwing.

Once again, there are no players, only characters. But the reactions of Roy, Haley, Elan, Belkar and Durkon to V suddenly carrying Blackwing on her shoulder do match up to the way some people play the game. Which is one of the reasons I not only get the joke, I find it hilarious. I've played with people who would react that way (or have their characters react that way).


All relative. 8-Bit Theater had a couple 10+ year brick jokes. I didn't find the punchline of one of them funny, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a brick joke. You have to stop basing this stuff solely on your interpretation.

Humor is subjective after all. The thing is that there is a difference between getting a joke and not finding it funny, and missing the punchline entirely. And this thread is a battle between those who got the joke (whether they found it funny or not) and those who missed the punchline and went sailing into the epileptic trees in the process.

[blunk]

It does feel forced and out of place, but then again, I'd say this is what you get when the readers have a tendancy to overanalyze every little thing that is in comic, even when it's supposed to be just a little joke.I would've loved it if Mr. Burlew had doubled down instead, and had Haley say something like, "Huh? I never forgot!" and then just left it unexplained for the rest of the series.

[David Argall]

Again, why does everyone have to be joking or everyone have to forget or what have you?
Strictly they don't, but for practical cases...
Picking and choosing different explanations looks, and usually is, contrived, that one is deriving facts from the conclusion. From a story basis too, a single cause is much superior.



Haley - Joking.

Roy - Dead serious.
Note that Roy also had to forget. He is told flat out that V has a familiar. One can argue that he had less chance to observe that familiar, but unless he forgets, he can't be serious and deny Blackwing. So we are back to needing a lot of people forgetting.



Belkar - Forgot.

Elan - Stupid.
Stupid does not preclude the need to forget, and at both the hotel and the trial, Elan seems to have actively remembered Blackwing. And while we have major questions about Elan's mental abilities, he really doesn't forget much.



Durkon - Forgot.


Seriously, how many games have you been in where everyone always remembers every detail of characters they've met once or twice or abilities of other players in the party they've only seen once or twice or hell even abilities of their own classes?
I have been to none in which the the players have incorrectly and unanimously said a player did not have something he had been using in previous sessions, which is what happens here.



Professional writers have written stories about ships in space that can travel through dimensions. That doesn't mean there's a high probability of the Giant bringing ships in space that can travel through dimensions into this story.
See the Gygax era. Several adventures featuring space travel and/or science fiction themes have happened in D&D official products. It could happen here too.
And a claim of low probability won't do here. Just about the entire story has been low probability and one can have a very high success rate by just mindlessly saying "not going to happen". Even the highly reasonable ideas are wrong the great majority of the time.



It could, in the same way that the party could go to Xykon's fortress eventually or that Serini could still be alive. There's no proof for any of it, though.
"It's unlikely", even "very unlikely" is severely different from "impossible".



At least there's actual evidence of the disease in that case.
We have clear evidence of "disease" here too. The entire party is denying what they should know to be true.



A theory that's trying to fix an (alleged) inconsistency shouldn't introduce more inconsistency. That kind of defeats the purpose.
The alleged inconsistencies are only there if you hunt for them. whether they exist at all can be debated, but 674 is based on a very obvious inconsistency. So even if the claimed "inconsistencies" are considered valid, the plot becomes less inconsistent by assuming something caused the party to forget.



Haley did.
Did she? Oh, she says she did, but Haley is a well-established liar and trickster. She also has trust issues. Confronted with her memories of Blackwing and of her denying those memories, she has good reason from her view to deny she forgot anything and to claim it was just a joke.



that doesn't mean it wasn't a brick joke. You have to stop basing this stuff solely on your interpretation.
I am taking the definition used by the links given in this thread. If you think a brick joke is something other than where the punchline is seriously separated from the build-up, it is your duty to supply it, or an explanation of why this qualifies. A mere statement does not suffice.


While The Giant has said on multiple occasions that the Order is not representing a group of roleplayers sitting in someone's basement or dorm room playing D&D (and for the record, I have no reason to challenge that), the reactions of the members of the Order in comic #674 actually do line up with the way certain people play the game.
Having played/directed thousands of D&D sessions, I can testify that nothing like 674 has ever happened in any of my games. And that is with a very wide set of players.



Humor is subjective after all. The thing is that there is a difference between getting a joke and not finding it funny, and missing the punchline entirely. And this thread is a battle between those who got the joke (whether they found it funny or not) and those who missed the punchline and went sailing into the epileptic trees in the process.
So feel feel to tell us why there is a joke in 943 that relates to 674. A mere claim is just a mere claim.

[The Linker]

Strictly they don't, but for practical cases...
Picking and choosing different explanations looks, and usually is, contrived, that one is deriving facts from the conclusion. From a story basis too, a single cause is much superior.

There's different explanations behind why the party does anything. Belkar helped Roy get the starmetal because he thought there'd be ogres. Haley did it because she thought there'd be riches. Vaarsuvius did it because she thought she could use Starmetal for something herself. Durkon did it because he had nothing better to do than help a friend. Elan just wanted to help.

Because characters are multi-faceted and have different motivations, character themes, and levels of reasoning -- from a story basis, a singular motivation for why these six people do anything is terrible, because it is incredibly uninteresting.

So yes, the idea that Haley saw her party members forgetting about Blackwing and decided to confuse Vaarsuvius further -- in itself, that shouldn't be unfathomable. I don't know why you would think it is. The idea that they might do things for different reasons is the entire reason we have six unique characters in this party and not Fighter-Roy and Wizard-Roy and Bard-Roy and Rogue-Roy and Cleric-Roy and Ranger-Roy.

[Sir_Leorik]

There's different explanations behind why the party does anything. Belkar helped Roy get the starmetal because he thought there'd be ogres. Haley did it because she thought there'd be riches. Vaarsuvius did it because she thought she could use Starmetal for something herself. Durkon did it because he had nothing better to do than help a friend. Elan just wanted to help.

Just a quick nitpick: Roy's Bluff was to convince Belkar that there were Giants, not Ogres. And he Bluffed Haley that the Giants were Kings.

Speaking of that Bluff, when the party arrives at the cave, Roy goes to apologize to Belkar about the Bluff. But Belkar's forgotten that Roy told them there would be Giants guarding the Starmetal, so he accuses Roy of lying to him about lying about Giants. (This actually plays a part in the climax to NCftPB.) So we now have evidence that Belkar forgets things all the time. In NCftPB he forgot why he agreed to come with Roy to the cave with the Starmetal. In Book Five he forgot (multiple times) about Blackwing. And that's not even going into all the things Elan forgets. Elan forgets seven important things before most people have eaten breakfast. So it is completely consistent that Belkar wouldn't notice Blackwing unless he was speaking (and sometimes not even then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html)).

How about we just put this discussion to bed. It was a joke, and not everyone got it, and not everyone who got it found it funny. Humor is subjective.

[orrion]

Strictly they don't, but for practical cases...
Picking and choosing different explanations looks, and usually is, contrived, that one is deriving facts from the conclusion. From a story basis too, a single cause is much superior.

The idea that this party of 6 acts the same in all situations and always has the same motivations isn't practical. It's absurd.



Note that Roy also had to forget. He is told flat out that V has a familiar. One can argue that he had less chance to observe that familiar, but unless he forgets, he can't be serious and deny Blackwing. So we are back to needing a lot of people forgetting.

He's told about a familiar he's never seen except once (the trial), and Roy's points in 674 are that the bird hasn't been hanging around and he's never seen it involved in the party's adventures. Both are true.



Stupid does not preclude the need to forget, and at both the hotel

He never saw Blackwing at the hotel, so there goes that.



See the Gygax era. Several adventures featuring space travel and/or science fiction themes have happened in D&D official products. It could happen here too.

The point is that whether something exists elsewhere in one story is not evidence or support of it existing in another story.



The alleged inconsistencies are only there if you hunt for them. whether they exist at all can be debated, but 674 is based on a very obvious inconsistency. So even if the claimed "inconsistencies" are considered valid, the plot becomes less inconsistent by assuming something caused the party to forget.

Kind of ironic that you mentioning hunting for inconsistencies, since the basis of this theory is you hunting back through the comic to reinterpret everything that could possibly have anything to do with your theory.



Did she? Oh, she says she did, but Haley is a well-established liar and trickster. She also has trust issues. Confronted with her memories of Blackwing and of her denying those memories, she has good reason from her view to deny she forgot anything and to claim it was just a joke.

Lying and tricking was exactly what she was doing in 674 by her explanation in 943, so that fits just fine. End of book scenes are for clarifications, explanations and finishing touches, anyway, so it really doesn't make sense for Haley to be lying here.

[Carlo]

The simplest and most plausible explanation, to me, is:

#674: "Hey, it'd be pretty funny to have everyone forget Blackwing just like V spent the rest of the comic's run forgetting about Blackwing."

#943: "I want to integrate Blackwing into the party more. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

Having given this some more thought, I've come up with an explanation I personally feel is even more plausible, and doesn't require any hypothetical as-yet-unknown mysterious rift powers.

#674: "I need to isolate Vaarsuvius socially/emotionally from the rest of the party for most of this book, in order to explore the consequences of the soul splice, and his/her secrecy regarding those events, on his/her character. By having everyone else forget Blackwing, it would encourage Vaarsuvius to use him as a sounding board to the exclusion of other party members."

#943: "Now that Vaarsuvius has come to terms with the horror that he/she has caused during the soul splice, it's time to reintegrate him/her more fully with the party. It's time to have everyone start interacting with Blackwing again. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

I don't consider this to be a particularly elegant explanation for the way everyone nonsensically forgot and refused to accept Blackwing's existence, but I find it to be much more satisfying, and narratively interesting, than the idea that the whole thing was just a weird clumsy joke. At least it assigns a significant narrative purpose to the party's collective amnesia. It also has the added benefit of not requiring an explanation for all of the gaps and holes in the rift exposure theory, which I admit are quite significant.


No matter what reason you think the party ignored Blackwing before, Haley saying something about why she was acknowledging Blackwing now needed to be done. He can't just give no explanation, or that'd be even weirder. This was a quick and easy explanation that -- to most -- didn't raise any questions. It's just a couple panels that serve like a switch between 'Blackwing is ignored by everyone' to 'Blackwing is treated like an actual character now.'

I'm glad you agree that it was weird. This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.


The joke that they were all denying Blackwing's existence also makes it easier to justify why Blackwing wouldn't, say, just tell Roy what he saw in the rift. It allows Blackwing to serve as someone for Vaarsuvius to talk to who won't tell the rest of the party anything -- even the really important, relevant-to-their-quest stuff.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me in retrospect, and is the basis for my own pet theory.

[orrion]

I'm glad you agree that it was weird. This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

Since when is the idea that the mind is not infallible a "blatant retcon" and where was it established that 5 members of the Order have an eidetic memory?

[Sir_Leorik]

Having given this some more thought, I've come up with an explanation I personally feel is even more plausible, and doesn't require any hypothetical as-yet-unknown mysterious rift powers.

#674: "I need to isolate Vaarsuvius socially/emotionally from the rest of the party for most of this book, in order to explore the consequences of the soul splice, and his/her secrecy regarding those events, on his/her character. By having everyone else forget Blackwing, it would encourage Vaarsuvius to use him as a sounding board to the exclusion of other party members."

#943: "Now that Vaarsuvius has come to terms with the horror that he/she has caused during the soul splice, it's time to reintegrate him/her more fully with the party. It's time to have everyone start interacting with Blackwing again. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

I don't consider this to be a particularly elegant explanation for the way everyone nonsensically forgot and refused to accept Blackwing's existence, but I find it to be much more satisfying, and narratively interesting, than the idea that the whole thing was just a weird clumsy joke. At least it assigns a significant narrative purpose to the party's collective amnesia. It also has the added benefit of not requiring an explanation for all of the gaps and holes in the rift exposure theory, which I admit are quite significant.

Why is it mutually exclusive for the entire party forgetting Blackwing be a plot point meant to turn Blackwing into V's Jiminy Cricket, while having a Brick Joke that Haley had actually remembered Blackwing and was denying she did back in Sandsedge as a practical joke? It's in character for Haley to lightly rib Vaarsuvius, and in this case all she did was egg the rest of the party on. Roy was the one who started the whole thing, Haley merely felt it was a chance to poke holes in V's ego after the whole Darth Vaarsuvius thing.


This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

Why are retcons bad? In this case, the retcon is that Haley was blatantly lying through her teeth. Haley is the best liar in the group, and she once convinced a man he was a marsupial using her magically augmented Bluff score. This retcon is completely in keeping with Haley's previously established character: she's V's best friend; she likes to make light of situations; she's an accomplished liar. So that was used as the basis of a brick joke. Why is that bad?

[Loreweaver15]

How about we just put this discussion to bed. It was a joke, and not everyone got it, and not everyone who got it found it funny. Humor is subjective.

But...people are wrong on the Internet!


Having given this some more thought, I've come up with an explanation I personally feel is even more plausible, and doesn't require any hypothetical as-yet-unknown mysterious rift powers.

#674: "I need to isolate Vaarsuvius socially/emotionally from the rest of the party for most of this book, in order to explore the consequences of the soul splice, and his/her secrecy regarding those events, on his/her character. By having everyone else forget Blackwing, it would encourage Vaarsuvius to use him as a sounding board to the exclusion of other party members."

#943: "Now that Vaarsuvius has come to terms with the horror that he/she has caused during the soul splice, it's time to reintegrate him/her more fully with the party. It's time to have everyone start interacting with Blackwing again. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

I don't consider this to be a particularly elegant explanation for the way everyone nonsensically forgot and refused to accept Blackwing's existence, but I find it to be much more satisfying, and narratively interesting, than the idea that the whole thing was just a weird clumsy joke. At least it assigns a significant narrative purpose to the party's collective amnesia. It also has the added benefit of not requiring an explanation for all of the gaps and holes in the rift exposure theory, which I admit are quite significant.

I'm glad you agree that it was weird. This is actually one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting that it was just a joke - jokes shouldn't require blatant retcons hundreds of strips later in order to be explained. It's one thing to create a glaring set of inconsistencies in the service of a joke - but to keep calling attention to those inconsistencies, and then finally providing a clumsy explanation for one of them, suggests to me something with greater narrative purpose than a mere running gag.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me in retrospect, and is the basis for my own pet theory.

Here's a pair of questions for you, then: why would Rich have done your version of 674 without already having his out planned (since he has the whole plot planned out in outline at least), and how does it being a joke preclude it also being a setup for character development?

[Carlo]

Since when is the idea that the mind is not infallible a "blatant retcon" and where was it established that 5 members of the Order have an eidetic memory?

The retcon is that Haley was retroactively established as having been joking, when in #674 there was no indication to that effect. I've made no claim that anybody in the order has an eidetic memory, and nothing that I've argued requires that to be the case.


Why is it mutually exclusive for the entire party forgetting Blackwing be a plot point meant to turn Blackwing into V's Jiminy Cricket, while having a Brick Joke that Haley had actually remembered Blackwing and was denying she did back in Sandsedge as a practical joke?

It's not mutually exclusive, but one is a more satisfying explanation to me than another. Even if both were true, the former makes the clumsy deployment of the latter more justified, to my mind. Also, unless you're arguing that Haley's admission to having been joking in #943 is a funny punchline to an unfunny set-up in #674, this wasn't a Brick Joke.


It's in character for Haley to lightly rib Vaarsuvius,

I disagree, and in any case I don't interpret #674 as light ribbing.


Why are retcons bad? In this case, the retcon is that Haley was blatantly lying through her teeth.

Retcons are generally seen as sign of bad writing.


why would Rich have done your version of 674 without already having his out planned (since he has the whole plot planned out in outline at least)

He wouldn't! That's what attracted me to the rift exposure theory in the first place - my default assumption is always that Rich has his plot points planned out very far in advance; and the rift exposure theory, however nebulous and implausible, fit best with that assumption. Also, you do realize that not having an out planned is a weakness not only of my isolate-V-from-the-party theory, but from the joke explanation as well? That a joke would even require an "out" hundreds of strips later suggests to me that it isn't a joke at all.


and how does it being a joke preclude it also being a setup for character development?

It doesn't. But the latter would help to justify the necessity as well as the clumsy deployment of the former. I'm more willing to accept that Rich inflicted a bizarre amnesia on the party for the sake of a character development arc than for the sake of a running gag. If both are true, it's more satisfying for me to believe that the character development arc was the main goal, and the joke was merely forced into the comic in service of that goal, rather than being an end in itself (i.e. Rule of Funny).

[Carlo]

Here's the thing: there are plenty of people who thought it was funny. You're basing an entire argument--and your insistence that there must be something going on--on the premise that you didn't find it funny or sensible, and that therefore it must not be a joke, and if you can only reach the heart of the matter you'll figure out what dark secret the Giant is hinting at, a secret you've already said makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's the thing, though: as fantastic a storyteller and comedian Rich is, he is not infallible. Not every joke will strike everyone as funny; not every intentional contradiction for the sake of a chuckle is going to hold the same weight. You're faced with a large number of people who immediately responded to the construct of humor that I described with "oh, haha! That was funny." or even "Oh. Huh, that wasn't all that funny. Moving on." and all recognized it as a joke, and your conclusion is that it can't be a joke, because you're not laughing.

Rich didn't invert his joke because there was a contradiction; Rich made a contradiction because he was inverting his joke.

I invite you to consider these points I've made and reach whatever conclusion you like, but really, that's what we're all telling you: just because you're not laughing doesn't make it not a joke.

As I keep trying to explain, my conclusion that it isn't a joke isn't based simply on the premise that I don't find it funny. My point is that structurally, logically, aesthetically, it doesn't resemble a joke to me at all. The entire dialogue in #674 surrounding the party's non-recognizance of Blackwing reads to me as if the author were dispensing an important plot point, rather than telling a joke. That he took the time to lampshade the contradictions raised by that non-recognizance, and then later took more time to reiterate those contradictions and even explain one of them, reinforces that conclusion, to my mind.

Jokes have a logic of their own, they follow a range of rules and conventions (which can in turn be subverted or reinvented), by which we can identify them as jokes in the first place. Jokes typically contain elements in their format or delivery which indicate that humor was intended in the first place, whether it's the opening ("Knock-knock,") or the punchline ("Bah-dum-tss!"). Not every unexpected, non-sensical, bizarre, or self-contradictory event or utterance is intended as a joke, even if there are those that might find them funny.

You can show me a pile of rubble and insist that it's a house, and even show me how someone might squeeze underneath it and sleep there, but if I can't see a foundation, walls, or a roof, I'm never going to accept that it's a house. Regardless of how many people you can recruit to insist that it is one.

[Carlo]

I still don't think anyone from the Rift-theory side has addressed the initial failure of their theory that Blackwing was "suddenly" forgotten about in 674. That failure is that there are dozens if not hundreds of times prior to that the members of the Order (possibly including Haley) have forgotten about Blackwing.

Just for one example, 554. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html) In this comic, Vaarsuvius, Elan, Diego, and Durkon all forget that V has a familiar.

What's that you say? Blackwing isn't in that comic?

EXACTLY.


:vaarsuvius: Ah, right, of course. My trusted familiar is right here by my side, as he has been this entire time.

Every time you see a strip with Vaarsuvius but not Blackwing? That's V forgetting Blackwing. Every time you see a strip with V and someone else? That's both of them forgetting Blackwing. It's possible that they are seeing him and not mentioning him, but if you apply that logic you have to apply it to comic 674 as well.

The comic I linked is especially egregious in this regard - V needs a BIRD who can relay information. V already HAS a BIRD who can relay information, and is a darn sight better trained than some random parakeets.

If the Order is supposed to be remembering Blackwing here, why does nobody say anything about this? What a contradiction!

Blackwing has been consistently forgotten about for 500 comics prior to his Rift experience.

Or are we now saying the Rift applies retro-actively?

That the party doesn't remember Blackwing when he isn't there doesn't obviate the inherent contradiction of refusing to remember or recognize him when he's staring them right in the face, when they could do so in the past.

[Smolder]

I prefer the simplest explanation. In D&D, a familiar is generally considered an extension of the character that controls it. When playing D&D, it's rare to give the familiar any RP time. But if the familiar has information that the players need, such as what it saw when it went off on its own, then it's fine to acknowledge and even converse with someone else's familiar, and then go back to ignoring it.

[Porthos]

The retcon is that Haley was retroactively established as having been joking, when in #674 there was no indication to that effect.

That's not the definiton of the word 'retcon'. Retcon is, strictly speaking, CHANGING past events to reflect present reality. That is say, those past events never happened - here's what happened instead.

Establishing that someone had ulterior motives or was lying unbeknownst to others is no more a retcon than The Reveals in The Usual Suspects or The Sixth Sense were retcons.

[Sir_Leorik]

It's not mutually exclusive, but one is a more satisfying explanation to me than another. Even if both were true, the former makes the clumsy deployment of the latter more justified, to my mind. Also, unless you're arguing that Haley's admission to having been joking in #943 is a funny punchline to an unfunny set-up in #674, this wasn't a Brick Joke.

Once again, humor is subjective. I found both jokes gut-bustingly hilarious, because I get the context of jokes about Familiars. I'd like to say my Sorcerer Yehoash treated Ssillith much better than V treated Blackwing, but yeah, until that time Ssillith prevented a TPK at the claws of an Abberation that paralyzed the party, he was ignored, left curled up, asleep, in my pack. So I find V "forgetting" Blackwing funny, and the total inversion equally funny. And Haley's Bluff score is pretty high (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html), even without magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html).


I disagree, and in any case I don't interpret #674 as light ribbing.

You're entitled to disagree. You could call it mean, catty, or any of a hundred different unflattering terms instead of "light-hearted ribbing", but it fits in with Haley's ribbing of Roy when Roy wore the Belt of Femininity/Masculinity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0236.html). What Haley did there can be interpreted as mean or light-hearted, but it's meant to be comedy.


Retcons are generally seen as sign of bad writing.

No. Bad writing is a sign of bad writing (and yes, I know that that's a tautology, but bear with me a moment.) Retcons are a legitimate tool for a writer, provided the retcon is not too blatant. In strip #674 Haley says one thing. In strip #943 she says that in strip #674 she was lying. Since there was no thought baloon where Haley thinks "Did V have a Familiar when we got separated at Azure City? Crap, I can't remember!" then the retcon would be a blatant contradiction. But there was no thought balloon, and we don't know what Haley was thinking. And since Haley is a known liar, I would suggest henceforth we take everything she says with an opposed Sense Motive check. :smallwink:


He wouldn't! That's what attracted me to the rift exposure theory in the first place - my default assumption is always that Rich has his plot points planned out very far in advance; and the rift exposure theory, however nebulous and implausible, fit best with that assumption. Also, you do realize that not having an out planned is a weakness not only of my isolate-V-from-the-party theory, but from the joke explanation as well? That a joke would even require an "out" hundreds of strips later suggests to me that it isn't a joke at all.

Unless it's a brick joke. Or a call back. Or a running gag...


It doesn't. But the latter would help to justify the necessity as well as the clumsy deployment of the former. I'm more willing to accept that Rich inflicted a bizarre amnesia on the party for the sake of a character development arc than for the sake of a running gag. If both are true, it's more satisfying for me to believe that the character development arc was the main goal, and the joke was merely forced into the comic in service of that goal, rather than being an end in itself (i.e. Rule of Funny).

What exactly is clumsy? Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it isn't a joke. It just means you don't find it funny. And I will defend your right to boo, jeer and heckle Rich Burlew for writing a joke that you groaned out, were puzzled by or just plain hate. But I really hate to see ridiculous epileptic trees continue to whisper, while the Smoke Monster coalesces into the Man-in-Black, offering a knife to the latest forum member caught up in a conspiracy to kill Jacob.

[martianmister]

Remember folks: Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing. :smalltongue:

[Sir_Leorik]

Remember folks: Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing. :smalltongue:

Pretty much. While I don't think it is a case of bad writing, I'd rather people were throwing tomatoes at the author than spinning elaborate conspiracy theories.

[Carlo]

You're entitled to disagree. You could call it mean, catty, or any of a hundred different unflattering terms instead of "light-hearted ribbing", but it fits in with Haley's ribbing of Roy when Roy wore the Belt of Femininity/Masculinity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0236.html). What Haley did there can be interpreted as mean or light-hearted, but it's meant to be comedy.

The difference is that Haley was clearly signaling her intent to tease Roy in that strip. When she lies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) for the sake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) of a gag we've always been able to tell.


No. Bad writing is a sign of bad writing (and yes, I know that that's a tautology, but bear with me a moment.) Retcons are a legitimate tool for a writer, provided the retcon is not too blatant. In strip #674 Haley says one thing. In strip #943 she says that in strip #674 she was lying. Since there was no thought baloon where Haley thinks "Did V have a Familiar when we got separated at Azure City? Crap, I can't remember!" then the retcon would be a blatant contradiction. But there was no thought balloon, and we don't know what Haley was thinking. And since Haley is a known liar, I would suggest henceforth we take everything she says with an opposed Sense Motive check. :smallwink:

I said retcons are generally seen as signs of bad writing. The quote from the TV Tropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon) goes "Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon', which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.'" Yes, retcons can be deployed skillfully and can even be used to improve a narrative, but they're most commonly seen as devices used to fix or remove undesirable plot elements.


Unless it's a brick joke. Or a call back. Or a running gag...

I can't recall any brick joke, call back, or running gag that required an "out" to explain a narrative contradiction introduced by its set-up. Certainly none that were funny.


What exactly is clumsy? Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it isn't a joke. It just means you don't find it funny.

See my earlier response to Loreweaver15.

[Carlo]

That's not the definiton of the word 'retcon'. Retcon is, strictly speaking, CHANGING past events to reflect present reality. That is say, those past events never happened - here's what happened instead.

Establishing that someone had ulterior motives or was lying unbeknownst to others is no more a retcon than The Reveals in The Usual Suspects or The Sixth Sense were retcons.

That's actually what appears to have happened here, at least to me. In any case, from TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon):


As the number of twists and misdirections in a story becomes higher, it becomes more difficult to tell whether an event actually is a retcon (which implies that the writers changed their minds), or a misdirection (which implies that the writers intended the "retconned" version all along, and had been deliberately misleading the audience before). In some cases, it is impossible to tell, short of reading the author's mind (even then, it might not helped, as it's entirely possible for an author to be on the fence about what they're planning to do).

[Carlo]

Pretty much. While I don't think it is a case of bad writing, I'd rather people were throwing tomatoes at the author than spinning elaborate conspiracy theories.

I invite you to quote where I, at least, have spun a conspiracy theory to any significant degree of elaboration. I've taken explicit and repeated pains to avoid doing exactly that.

[Keltest]

The difference is that Haley was clearly signaling her intent to tease Roy in that strip. When she lies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) for the sake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) of a gag we've always been able to tell.

You realize that Haley never actually uttered an untruth in either of those panels, which is the joke. In the first one she is objecting to Belkar's assumption that she took the potion on the basis that he is accusing her simply because she is a rogue. Note that she ignores his protests and actual evidence. In the second one, she allows the party to come to its own conclusions about the value of her "treasure" while being entirely honest with them.

[ti'esar]

Remember folks: Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing. :smalltongue:

Amen to that.

[Carlo]

You realize that Haley never actually uttered an untruth in either of those panels, which is the joke. In the first one she is objecting to Belkar's assumption that she took the potion on the basis that he is accusing her simply because she is a rogue. Note that she ignores his protests and actual evidence. In the second one, she allows the party to come to its own conclusions about the value of her "treasure" while being entirely honest with them.

Semantics. In either case she was committing deceit.

[Sir_Leorik]

You realize that Haley never actually uttered an untruth in either of those panels, which is the joke. In the first one she is objecting to Belkar's assumption that she took the potion on the basis that he is accusing her simply because she is a rogue. Note that she ignores his protests and actual evidence. In the second one, she allows the party to come to its own conclusions about the value of her "treasure" while being entirely honest with them.

And in both cases she's using her Bluff score to get what she wants. That's what a really good con artist does, and Haley learned at the feet of the master: her Uncle Geoff. (What you think it was her dad? Her dad's just paranoid, yet Geoff managed to trick him for three years!)

[orrion]

The retcon is that Haley was retroactively established as having been joking, when in #674 there was no indication to that effect. I've made no claim that anybody in the order has an eidetic memory, and nothing that I've argued requires that to be the case.

Whoa there, I think you have some reading to do on the subject of a retcon.

A reinterpretation or clarification of an event is not a retcon. A retcon is the changing of past events, or the nullification of previously established events.

An example of the first is in the Wheel of Time series where the main character Balefires someone responsible for the deaths of a major character and the main character's lover (and another guy). All three are restored to life as a result and their deaths never happened. That's a retcon.

An example of the second is in Naruto, where the One-Tailed Shukaku is originally established to have been the soul of a mad priest rather than a construct of chakra split off from a primordial entity. The second explanation trumps the first as if it never happened, so that's a retcon as well.


943? Doesn't even come close to being a retcon.

A retcon in this comic would be.. let's say the Giant decides to have O-Chul give a monologue about how he really wasn't paralyzed by Xykon, and then he saw Miko enter the room, knew what she was going to do, and decided to destroy the gate himself. He states his play at being paralyzed was in an effort to infiltrate Team Evil's camp and learn stuff (like Xykon's spell list).

If O-Chul did that it would directly contradict several events that took place, like the fact that we saw Miko destroy the sapphire on panel.

[Kish]

The difference is that Haley was clearly signaling her intent to tease Roy in that strip. When she lies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) for the sake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) of a gag we've always been able to tell.
There's a Catch-22 there. If Haley lied and you couldn't tell, then you couldn't tell. There is no possible way to prove what you're claiming.

[Porthos]

That's actually what appears to have happened here, at least to me. In any case, from TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon):

As much as I like it, TV Tropes isn't an authority on How To Write. :smallwink:

Also, if you look at the qualifier, it said "As the number of twists and misdirections in a story becomes higher, it becomes more difficult to tell whether an event actually is a retcon or a misdirection".

Now while Rich may surprise, he isn't pulling twists and misdirections left and right like shows like LOST and the like.

No, a misdirection is a misdirection. And when getting into character motivations, the bar for retcon becomes pretty darn high.

Now this doesn't mean you have to think what happened as good writing. But this was as much a retcon as Julio showing up was a Deus ex Machina. :smallwink:

[Sir_Leorik]

Now this doesn't mean you have to think what happened as good writing. But this was as much a retcon as Julio showing up was a Dues ex Machina. :smallwink:

Isn't that when you get your paycheck from an ATM? What does that have to do with Julio showing up? Was it payday? :smallconfused:

[Porthos]

Isn't that when you get your paycheck from an ATM? What does that have to do with Julio showing up? Was it payday? :smallconfused:

I thought snarky comments about obvious spelling mistakes was more Kish's shtick. :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

Went back and edited post for you. :smallsmile:

[orrion]

Isn't that when you get your paycheck from an ATM? What does that have to do with Julio showing up? Was it payday? :smallconfused:

No, Dues Ex Machina is taxes.

[Carlo]

Whoa there, I think you have some reading to do on the subject of a retcon.

A reinterpretation or clarification of an event is not a retcon. A retcon is the changing of past events, or the nullification of previously established events.

A reinterpretation absolutely can be a retcon, which is what I perceive to have happened in #943. You have to realize that there's a very blurry distinction between changing a past event, and reinterpreting it so that the new interpretation is what had happened all along. A quick perusal of the relevant TV Tropes page reveals a plethora of narrative reinterpretations that are entirely consistent with events as originally portrayed, but add new information that frames those events in an entirely different light.

[Porthos]

A quick perusal of the relevant TV Tropes page reveals a plethora of narrative reinterpretations that are entirely consistent with events as originally portrayed, but add new information that frames those events in an entirely different light.

Again, TV Tropes should NOT be taken as gospel when it comes to writing techniques.

It's fun. It's entertaining. It might even be useful. But when it comes to defining the difference between 'retcon' and 'reinterpretation'?

Well, to use the parlance of that site: No. Just no. :smallwink:

[Keltest]

A reinterpretation absolutely can be a retcon, which is what I perceive to have happened in #943. You have to realize that there's a very blurry distinction between changing a past event, and reinterpreting it so that the new interpretation is what had happened all along. A quick perusal of the relevant TV Tropes page reveals a plethora of narrative reinterpretations that are entirely consistent with events as originally portrayed, but add new information that frames those events in an entirely different light.

Eh, not really. an interpretation is up to the viewer/reader. If at any point you notice some minutiae that you missed before, you might see the scene in a whole different light without it changing the actual event at all. A retcon is blatantly altering something, IE: "Character X came in from out of town to deal with the monster." becomes "Character X is a local who just never stays there." or more blatantly, something like "Xykon was actually a quarter elven, that's why he lived so long." even though its been stated he was a human.

[Sir_Leorik]

A reinterpretation absolutely can be a retcon, which is what I perceive to have happened in #943. You have to realize that there's a very blurry distinction between changing a past event, and reinterpreting it so that the new interpretation is what had happened all along. A quick perusal of the relevant TV Tropes page reveals a plethora of narrative reinterpretations that are entirely consistent with events as originally portrayed, but add new information that frames those events in an entirely different light.

That's pretty much what happened in #943. We know have more information about that scene in Sandsedge. Nothing in #943 contradicts #674, it merely shows that in #674 Haley was Bluffing Vaarsuvius by playing along with Roy. So basically we can go back and reread #674 in a new light: Haley, who knows exactly who Blackwing is, plays along with Roy, while Elan was genuinely clueless, despite the fact that he arranged for Blackwing to sit next to Banjo at the tea party in the inn.

[Carlo]

As much as I like it, TV Tropes isn't an authority on How To Write. :smallwink:

Also, if you look at the qualifier, it said "As the number of twists and misdirections in a story becomes higher, it becomes more difficult to tell whether an event actually is a retcon or a misdirection".

Now while Rich may surprise, he isn't pulling twists and misdirections left and right like shows like LOST and the like.

No, a misdirection is a misdirection. And when getting into character motivations, the bar for retcon becomes pretty darn high.

Now this doesn't mean you have to think what happened as good writing. But this was as much a retcon as Julio showing up was a Deus ex Machina. :smallwink:

That's fair. Whether this was a true retcon or an originally intended misdirection is beside the point in any case, and both are valid interpretations. Rich being as good a writer as he is, I'm more inclined to interpret events as having been planned ahead of time. My point is that #943 serves as a post hoc explanation to justify a contradiction introduced in #674, which to my mind undermines the argument that #674 was just a joke and nothing else. I called it a retcon because, on the face of it, that's what it looks like ("Haley was just kidding all along!").

[Keltest]

That's fair. Whether this was a true retcon or an originally intended misdirection is beside the point in any case, and both are valid interpretations. Rich being as good a writer as he is, I'm more inclined to interpret events as having been planned ahead of time. My point is that #943 serves as a post hoc explanation to justify a contradiction introduced in #674, which to my mind undermines the argument that #674 was just a joke and nothing else. I called it a retcon because, on the face of it, that's what it looks like ("Haley was just kidding all along!").

Actually, that's different from a retcon too. That's a handwave, included in this case so that Haley can interact with Blackwing as a character without retconning anything.

[Carlo]

Again, TV Tropes should NOT be taken as gospel when it comes to writing techniques.

It's fun. It's entertaining. It might even be useful. But when it comes to defining the difference between 'retcon' and 'reinterpretation'?

Well, to use the parlance of that site: No. Just no. :smallwink:

I don't think that continuing to argue the definition of a retcon is particularly productive, and labeling #943 as a reinterpretation rather than a retcon makes no difference to my overall point. But regarding the use of TV Tropes, would you then prefer Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon#Addition)?


Some retcons do not necessarily directly contradict previously established facts but instead fill in missing background details, usually to support current plot points. Thomas referred to "retroactive continuity" in this sense, as a purely additive process that did not undo any previous work; such additions were common in All-Star Squadron. Kurt Busiek took a similar approach with Untold Tales of Spider-Man, a series which told stories that specifically fit between issues of the original The Amazing Spider-Man series, sometimes explaining discontinuities between those earlier stories. John Byrne utilized a similar structure with X-Men: The Hidden Years. In The Godfather: Part II, the character Frank Pentangeli is introduced as an old friend of the family though he is not referenced in the first movie; similarly Don Altobello is one of the "old time" Dons, though he is not mentioned until Godfather: Part III. Neither addition affects the plot line of the previous films.

[ti'esar]

An example of the first is in the Wheel of Time series where the main character Balefires someone responsible for the deaths of a major character and the main character's lover (and another guy). All three are restored to life as a result and their deaths never happened. That's a retcon.

Off-topic nitpick: I don't think previous events being changed in-universe can really be called a retcon.

[Carlo]

Eh, not really. an interpretation is up to the viewer/reader.

Hence the occasionally difficulty of telling whether an event is a retcon or not. It usually hinges on the perception of whether or not the authors planned the new interpretation all along.


If at any point you notice some minutiae that you missed before, you might see the scene in a whole different light without it changing the actual event at all. A retcon is blatantly altering something, IE: "Character X came in from out of town to deal with the monster." becomes "Character X is a local who just never stays there." or more blatantly, something like "Xykon was actually a quarter elven, that's why he lived so long." even though its been stated he was a human.

See my Wikipedia quote above.

[Porthos]

would you then prefer Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon#Addition)?

The problem then is, the negative connotation that retroactive continuity has isn't when they fill in missing gaps (though in some fandoms, there is a tsk tsk at the desire to do that), but because they change things. If the term 'retcon' was more often in the prior sense, then it wouldn't have the reputation as being WongBadDon'tDo as it does.

Either way, you yourself note that it's the explanation that bugged you, not whatever technical literary term is used to describe what happened.

Which is fair enuf, as I have noted on more than one occasion when these things crop up. :smallwink:

[orrion]

A reinterpretation absolutely can be a retcon, which is what I perceive to have happened in #943. You have to realize that there's a very blurry distinction between changing a past event, and reinterpreting it so that the new interpretation is what had happened all along. A quick perusal of the relevant TV Tropes page reveals a plethora of narrative reinterpretations that are entirely consistent with events as originally portrayed, but add new information that frames those events in an entirely different light.

It isn't blurry at all.

A retcon is a change of past events or making it so those events never happened.

Haley's explanation in 943 doesn't change a past event. It still happened, and it still happened exactly as was stated.

There's now a new motivation for that event, but the event itself is unchanged. Therefore no retcon.

[martianmister]

This is a retcon:

Luke: "Obi-Wan! Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
This is also a retcon:

Blackwing: "Hey! You remember me now?"
Haley: "Shyeah. I'm the one who named you! I was just busting V's chops before."

[Carlo]

It isn't blurry at all.

A retcon is a change of past events or making it so those events never happened.

Haley's explanation in 943 doesn't change a past event. It still happened, and it still happened exactly as was stated.

There's now a new motivation for that event, but the event itself is unchanged. Therefore no retcon.

I've cited two sources that contradict your restrictive definition (whereas you've cited none). I don't know what else I can say to convince you.

[martianmister]

It isn't blurry at all.

A retcon is a change of past events or making it so those events never happened.

What you said is an internal inconsistency, not a retcon.

[allenw]

And in both cases she's using her Bluff score to get what she wants. That's what a really good con artist does, and Haley learned at the feet of the master: her Uncle Geoff. (What you think it was her dad? Her dad's just paranoid, yet Geoff managed to trick him for three years!)

But we know from Haley that Bluff only works on things that aren't true. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html)

[Keltest]

What you said is an internal inconsistency, not a retcon.

the term retcon is almost never used to mean anything other than a story jumping from one internal consistency to another, to the point where it needs to be spelled out when its being used for any other purpose. Citing a technical definition that nobody uses is simply an attempt to make a poor argument look better.

[martianmister]

the term retcon is almost never used to mean anything other than a story jumping from one internal consistency to another, to the point where it needs to be spelled out when its being used for any other purpose. Citing a technical definition that nobody uses is simply an attempt to make a poor argument look better.

You can say same thing for "deus ex machina". But that doesn't change the real meaning.

[Keltest]

You can say same thing for "deus ex machina". But that doesn't change the real meaning.

Perhaps, but the responsibility of clarity is on the shoulders of the one typing. If youre going to use an uncommon meaning for something, make it clear.

Don't argue that "Xykon killing all the goblins by throwing them into the gate was Cool" then try and save face by saying you meant "cool, as in cold, uncaring."

[David Argall]

There's different explanations behind why the party does anything. Belkar helped Roy get the starmetal because he thought there'd be ogres. Haley did it because she thought there'd be riches. Vaarsuvius did it because she thought she could use Starmetal for something herself. Durkon did it because he had nothing better to do than help a friend. Elan just wanted to help.
But there is no mystery here. Only a varied set of difficulties Roy must overcome. With 674, we have mystery, why did all of these people forget? And in that case, several exclamations are grossly inferior to one. The extra exclamations just take up space.



So yes, the idea that Haley saw her party members forgetting about Blackwing and decided to confuse Vaarsuvius further -- in itself, that shouldn't be unfathomable. [/QUOTE]
It's not unfathomable, just inferior and unlikely.



Speaking of that Bluff, when the party arrives at the cave, Roy goes to apologize to Belkar about the Bluff. But Belkar's forgotten that Roy told them there would be Giants guarding the Starmetal, so he accuses Roy of lying to him about lying about Giants.
Belkar says he doesn't remember, but Belkar is a frequent liar, particularly when that allows him to jerk Roy's chain. So this strip does not require Belkar to forget anything.



(This actually plays a part in the climax to NCftPB.) So we now have evidence that Belkar forgets things all the time.
One time does not make all the time, particularly when that one may be none.



In NCftPB he forgot why he agreed to come with Roy to the cave with the Starmetal. In Book Five he forgot (multiple times) about Blackwing.
Cite pages please. Also note that book 5 comes after we are noticing the memory problem. That is when the rift theory says Belkar would forget. [Of course, it seems you are confusing "ignoring" with "forgetting" here.]



And that's not even going into all the things Elan forgets. Elan forgets seven important things before most people have eaten breakfast.
Again cite cases. As near as I can quickly tell, Elan forgets little or nothing. His stupidity is drawing the wrong conclusions from the facts, a good number of which are his fantasies. It is the MIDT who always forgets things.



So it is completely consistent that Belkar wouldn't notice Blackwing unless he was speaking (and sometimes not even then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html)).
But again, this is after 674, and thus after any rift effect. It is not evidence that Belkar never had any memory.



How about we just put this discussion to bed. It was a joke, and not everyone got it, and not everyone who got it found it funny. Humor is subjective.
Please explain how it was a joke. Even how it was a lousy joke. I have already mentioned how 943 is not fitting the model of a brick joke. So how is it a joke? and not a simple factual statement.


The idea that this party of 6 acts the same in all situations and always has the same motivations isn't practical. It's absurd.
Once again the addition of absolutes. You seem to have this idea that if a theory is only 99% right, it is 100% wrong.



He's told about a familiar he's never seen except once (the trial), and Roy's points in 674 are that the bird hasn't been hanging around and he's never seen it involved in the party's adventures. Both are true.
Here again we see a claim that if Roy is not shown directly looking at Blackwing, he never saw him. But context tells us he saw the bird several times, maybe too high to count. In both the woods and the Oracle, the two are only a short distance apart and Roy would have done some gymnastics to avoid seeing Blackwing.



He never saw Blackwing at the hotel, so there goes that.
Elan arranged the animal dinner where the raven was at. It may be possible for Blackwing to get an invite without Elan physically seeing him, but Elan had to be thinking of him, and thinking he was a "member" of the party.



The point is that whether something exists elsewhere in one story is not evidence or support of it existing in another story.
Quite the contrary. It is usually not powerful evidence, but it is evidence, and quite strong when we are merely trying to establish a possibility.



Lying and tricking was exactly what she was doing in 674 by her explanation in 943, so that fits just fine. End of book scenes are for clarifications, explanations and finishing touches, anyway, so it really doesn't make sense for Haley to be lying here.
We are in a multi-book series, which means end of book scene is also for making things confused, so as to get readers for the next book.


It's in character for Haley to lightly rib Vaarsuvius,
Please cite examples.

[ti'esar]

Frankly, from where I'm standing the only reason anyone would think of this as a retcon would be if they thought there was something more to the Order "not remembering" Blackwing in the first place.

[martianmister]

Perhaps, but the responsibility of clarity is on the shoulders of the one typing. If youre going to use an uncommon meaning for something, make it clear.

1. It's not uncommon.
2. I will stick to the true meaning, thank you.
3. Nice straw man in there.


Frankly, from where I'm standing the only reason anyone would think of this as a retcon would be if they thought there was something more to the Order "not remembering" Blackwing in the first place.

When the first strip is uploaded, everyone thought that Haley really forgot about Blackwing's existence. This revealed to be not the case, by a retcon. :smallconfused:

[orrion]

I've cited two sources that contradict your restrictive definition (whereas you've cited none). I don't know what else I can say to convince you.

The Wikipedia entry involves stories that are added in after the fact (sometimes to SOLVE retcons).

Since there's no story being added here that's totally irrelevant.


What you said is an internal inconsistency, not a retcon.

That's what a retcon IS - an altering of internal consistency.

Carlo's definition of a retcon is far too broad. Under it, there are dozens of retcons in any story of appreciable length.



Once again the addition of absolutes. You seem to have this idea that if a theory is only 99% right, it is 100% wrong.

Considering you can't say this theory is even 1% right, I'm not sure what that summary has to do with anything.


Here again we see a claim that if Roy is not shown directly looking at Blackwing, he never saw him. But context tells us he saw the bird several times, maybe too high to count. In both the woods and the Oracle, the two are only a short distance apart and Roy would have done some gymnastics to avoid seeing Blackwing.

The Oracle actually does wipe memories. I'm literally laughing at the irony here - the one time a memory wipe is confirmed to have occurred in the comic you're flat out ignoring it. It's baffling.

If by "gymnastics" you mean "not turn around," then yes, Roy would have had to do that to avoid seeing him in the woods. Roy was talking to Haley when Blackwing appeared and then the comic ends. Next one starts with V taking shelter under Roy and, again, Blackwing is behind him. There's no indication of how much time passed or in what direction(s) they went.



Elan arranged the animal dinner where the raven was at. It may be possible for Blackwing to get an invite without Elan physically seeing him, but Elan had to be thinking of him, and thinking he was a "member" of the party.

How? Elan wasn't there in comic #3, he was tied in a tent when Blackwing was scouting the bandit camp, and he wasn't on panel at any point in 178 or 179 while V was a lizard. And the party was basically ignoring V while he was a lizard and Elan isn't smart so it's highly dubious to think he'd have made the connection between V and the raven.

The better explanation is that Blackwing went to enjoy the tea party by himself, possibly because he was feeling ignored. Also, there's no evidence that Blackwing appears when other party members remember him. Only when V remembers him.



Quite the contrary. It is usually not powerful evidence, but it is evidence, and quite strong when we are merely trying to establish a possibility.

It is not "evidence" to say that an ongoing story will have an element at some point from the billions of other stories that have been written.



We are in a multi-book series, which means end of book scene is also for making things confused, so as to get readers for the next book.

The "book" will already be online before it's printed.

[Kish]

I thought snarky comments about obvious spelling mistakes was more Kish's shtick. :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:
I own ALL the snark.

[Carlo]

The Wikipedia entry involves stories that are added in after the fact (sometimes to SOLVE retcons).

Since there's no story being added here that's totally irrelevant.

Here's what you said earlier:


Haley's explanation in 943 doesn't change a past event. It still happened, and it still happened exactly as was stated.

There's now a new motivation for that event, but the event itself is unchanged. Therefore no retcon.

(emphasis mine)

A new element to the story was added that put a previous event, though unchanged, in a new light. This was your argument. Unless you want to argue that character motivations aren't part of the story?

[orrion]

A new element to the story was added that put a previous event, though unchanged, in a new light. This was your argument. Unless you want to argue that character motivations aren't part of the story?

... A new element was added. A new story was not added.

While we're on the subject of character motivation, it was entirely in character for Haley to do what she did in 674.

Every revealed lie, however, is not a retcon.

Every broadening of a story is not a retcon.

Every revelation is not a retcon.

[Carlo]

... A new element was added. A new story was not added.

Please cite any source that claims that a new story must be added to qualify as a retcon.


While we're on the subject of character motivation, it was entirely in character for Haley to do what she did in 674.

I disagree. When else has Haley "busted V's chops" like that?


Every revealed lie, however, is not a retcon.

Every broadening of a story is not a retcon.

Every revelation is not a retcon.

I never claimed any such thing, nor did any of the sources I cited.

[jere7my]

A new element to the story was added that put a previous event, though unchanged, in a new light. This was your argument. Unless you want to argue that character motivations aren't part of the story?

Are you saying that that's a retcon? That's overly broad. The ending of The Sixth Sense is not a retcon.

What determines whether a retcon is a retcon is authorial planning. If the author presents us with a hawk on page 50, and on page 200 they tell us that it was actually a polymorphed handsaw, it is only a retcon if the author didn't know on page 50 that it was going to be a handsaw. If the audience is lucky, they can turn back to page 50 and find the subtle clues that it was intentional—say, a character says "Well, I never saw such a hawk!" or there's a Hamlet reference on the page. If, on the other hand, it's a (bad) retcon, it might create inconsistencies that the audience can point to. Often, there's just not enough evidence on either side, and it all comes down to how much you trust the author. If you're doing "death of the author" analysis, it can be very tough to build a case for retroactive continuity.

In this case, I suspect Rich didn't plan this particular bit this far ahead, but not because I mistrust him—it's because it doesn't matter. The invisible familiar bit was a running gag, and Rich decided at some point to give the gag a bit of story weight by using it to mark Vaarsuvius's development. Now, the gag has run its course and become a distraction, so Rich is giving the audience a nod that the gag is over and Blackwing will be a regular character from here on out. It doesn't matter whether Haley's revelation is a retcon or not, because to this point Blackwing only had story significance for Vaarsuvius; everybody else's interactions with him were just further iterations of the running gag. Because it was a running gag, with people remembering or forgetting Blackwing as the comedy dictated, Haley's revelation can't create contradictions. Contradictions are only an issue for matters of story significance; comedy absorbs, ignores, or thrives on them. You get a "Wah wah wahhh" from the trumpet and move on.

[orrion]

Please cite any source that claims that a new story must be added to qualify as a retcon.

That was about interpreting your Wikipedia source, which talked about new stories being added between existing ones. IE Spiderman. That isn't what happened here.



I disagree. When else has Haley "busted V's chops" like that?

Haley spent the entire time Roy was a girl busting his chops over it. She also lies for entertainment and otherwise frequently.



I never claimed any such thing, nor did any of the sources I cited.

You are claiming this was a retcon because... it was a lie.

[ti'esar]

In this case, I suspect Rich didn't plan this particular bit this far ahead, but not because I mistrust him—it's because it doesn't matter. The invisible familiar bit was a running gag, and Rich decided at some point to give the gag a bit of story weight by using it to mark Vaarsuvius's development. Now, the gag has run its course and become a distraction, so Rich is giving the audience a nod that the gag is over and Blackwing will be a regular character from here on out. It doesn't matter whether Haley's revelation is a retcon or not, because to this point Blackwing only had story significance for Vaarsuvius; everybody else's interactions with him were just further iterations of the running gag. Because it was a running gag, with people remembering or forgetting Blackwing as the comedy dictated, Haley's revelation can't create contradictions. Contradictions are only an issue for matters of story significance; comedy absorbs, ignores, or thrives on them. You get a "Wah wah wahhh" from the trumpet and move on.

Exactly. The only reason you would consider this a "retcon" is if you thought that there was some sinister meaning behind the Order not acknowledging Blackwing - if you took it as a joke in the first place, it doesn't really matter or not whether Rich "always" intended that Haley was just trying to wind V up.

[The Linker]

Just a quick nitpick: Roy's Bluff was to convince Belkar that there were Giants, not Ogres. And he Bluffed Haley that the Giants were Kings.

Ahh, yeah, giants. I knew about the specifics of his bluff to Haley, but I generalized it to be snappier.


And yes, calling it necessarily a retcon is silly unless you know for certain that Rich didn't intend for Haley to be kidding at first. You do not know that. I suspect that myself, but until he clarifies, we can't say it is a retcon for certain. If he intended it from the beginning, then calling it a retcon is, as others have said, like the end of Sixth Sense retconning Bruce Willis to have been dead all along.


At this juncture, the only thing I think I can contribute is some sort of analysis as to why I feel it's clear this was intended as a joke. If you think this was a joke that also masked plot information, then sure, okay, maybe. If you think this was never intended to be a joke at all, then I strongly disagree.

The seventh panel of #674 has Haley and Belkar point out two of the very few situations where Blackwing was actually present. If this is a Serious Comic dispensing Serious Plot Information that we're supposed to take Seriously, then this is a coincidence. They picked two random events out of the comic's run and hit the 1% target that is required to hit a point where Blackwing was present.

Or, Haley picked one of the moments where Blackwing was actually around and she saw him (she's facing the right direction, after all) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html) and brought it up specifically to razz Vaarsuvius more. This supports the fact that she's in the know more than anything else. Why would she pick that moment at all, otherwise?

The three explanations are: Haley is purposefully busting V's chops, this strip is running off the Rule of Funny, or massive lottery-winning-level coincidence. Only on Giant in the Playground do people support the latter!

Belkar's line is a similar instance, except that it's much more leaning in the direction of Rule of Funny than purposefully busting V's chops, since no one was there to see V face down the death knight but V. V could have told the others the story, but Belkar hardly pays attention anyway. Either's possible, though.

Now, I remember hearing that #809 was not intended as a joke because V is not there to provide the humor from being exasperated -- but Blackwing is right there, being exasperated. If Roy and Belkar's ignorance in #809 was a plot point, why would Blackwing's response be "You are both ignorant cretins."? Would it not be "Why don't you guys believe I'm real?" or "Do you really not remember me?" Instead of asking questions, Blackwing accepts that they're just being dumb and gives a line to that effect. If it was supposed to be seen as critical plot information, and we were supposed to pick up on there being a reason behind their ignorance, he would not have responded that way. He responded in a way that signified it as Rule of Funny when there were many other ways he could have responded that would not have painted it like a joke.

Again, I'm not currently arguing whether their ignorance stems from the rift's effects or whatever. I'm just trying to say that every instance of the party not knowing who Blackwing is is very much intended to be seen as a joke. Whether it's only a joke or not, well, debate as you will. Personally I don't think it's impossible for it to be a rift effect, but if it is, it is supposed to be a twist, because everything up to this point was very much written in the style of a joke.

[Carlo]

Are you saying that that's a retcon? That's overly broad. The ending of The Sixth Sense is not a retcon.

Obviously not, at least not by itself. The citations I linked provide a more complete definition of what a retcon is. I'm merely arguing that the addition of new context to reframe past events, rather than merely changing or erasing past events, can also count as a retcon.

It really shouldn't need to be said that, obviously, the ending of The Sixth Sense isn't a retcon because, setting aside all of the foreshadowings for the twist, The Sixth Sense takes place within a single movie! Retcons are only possible, even theoretically, in serialized fiction like comic books and TV series.


What determines whether a retcon is a retcon is authorial planning. If the author presents us with a hawk on page 50, and on page 200 they tell us that it was actually a polymorphed handsaw, it is only a retcon if the author didn't know on page 50 that it was going to be a handsaw. If the audience is lucky, they can turn back to page 50 and find the subtle clues that it was intentional—say, a character says "Well, I never saw such a hawk!" or there's a Hamlet reference on the page. If, on the other hand, it's a (bad) retcon, it might create inconsistencies that the audience can point to. Often, there's just not enough evidence on either side, and it all comes down to how much you trust the author. If you're doing "death of the author" analysis, it can be very tough to build a case for retroactive continuity.

In this case, I suspect Rich didn't plan this particular bit this far ahead, but not because I mistrust him—it's because it doesn't matter. The invisible familiar bit was a running gag, and Rich decided at some point to give the gag a bit of story weight by using it to mark Vaarsuvius's development. Now, the gag has run its course and become a distraction, so Rich is giving the audience a nod that the gag is over and Blackwing will be a regular character from here on out. It doesn't matter whether Haley's revelation is a retcon or not, because to this point Blackwing only had story significance for Vaarsuvius; everybody else's interactions with him were just further iterations of the running gag. Because it was a running gag, with people remembering or forgetting Blackwing as the comedy dictated, Haley's revelation can't create contradictions. Contradictions are only an issue for matters of story significance; comedy absorbs, ignores, or thrives on them. You get a "Wah wah wahhh" from the trumpet and move on.

I agree with most of this, more or less. I wouldn't say exactly that comedy can't create contradictions, but I see what you're getting at.

[Carlo]

That was about interpreting your Wikipedia source, which talked about new stories being added between existing ones. IE Spiderman. That isn't what happened here.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse. You appear to be selectively interpreting the explanations and citations I've provided. The operative sentence in the quote from Wikipedia is the first sentence:


Some retcons do not necessarily directly contradict previously established facts but instead fill in missing background details, usually to support current plot points.

which contradicts your earlier assertion that retcons only change or erase past events. The examples are just that, illustrations of this type of retcon. The requirement that this type of retcon requires the addition of "story", whatever that means, is a fiction that you invented. That I quoted this specific section doesn't mean that you're supposed to ignore the main definition of "retcon" provided in the article, namely:


Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.


Haley spent the entire time Roy was a girl busting his chops over it. She also lies for entertainment and otherwise frequently.

Poking fun at the resident straight man after an unexpected gender change is hardly equivalent to busting the chops of her oldest friend within the order for no apparent reason. And as I mentioned earlier, unlike #237, in #674 there was no indication that Haley was joking.


You are claiming this was a retcon because... it was a lie.

No, I was not, which you would know if you took the time to really try to understand the argument that I'm making.

[Carlo]

And yes, calling it necessarily a retcon is silly unless you know for certain that Rich didn't intend for Haley to be kidding at first. You do not know that. I suspect that myself, but until he clarifies, we can't say it is a retcon for certain. If he intended it from the beginning, then calling it a retcon is, as others have said, like the end of Sixth Sense retconning Bruce Willis to have been dead all along.

Calling what appears to be a retcon, a retcon, isn't silly just because one isn't 100% sure that the label is accurate. If it quacks like a duck, and all that. I'm perfectly willing to concede, as I already have previously, that I can't know for sure if this was an intended or unintended change, and I even admitted that I prefer the interpretation that it was intended. But I'm willing to call it a retcon because, on the face of it, that's what it looks like.


The seventh panel of #674 has Haley and Belkar point out two of the very few situations where Blackwing was actually present. If this is a Serious Comic dispensing Serious Plot Information that we're supposed to take Seriously, then this is a coincidence. They picked two random events out of the comic's run and hit the 1% target that is required to hit a point where Blackwing was present.


This doesn't logically follow at all. This is actually one of the reasons I interpret it as NOT a joke. How does it being a Serious Comic dispensing Serious Plot Information require that past events would be picked randomly? For me, the selection of these two specific events was a signal that Canon Is Being Changed. A joke, to my mind, would have been delivered in a punchier manner - the Order would have forgotten about Blackwing, Vaarsuvius would have been angry, haha so funny! That Rich took the time to underscore the contradictions introduced by the joke signaled that he was fully aware of them, which implied that they were being introduced for some greater purpose.


Now, I remember hearing that #809 was not intended as a joke because V is not there to provide the humor from being exasperated -- but Blackwing is right there, being exasperated. If Roy and Belkar's ignorance in #809 was a plot point, why would Blackwing's response be "You are both ignorant cretins."? Would it not be "Why don't you guys believe I'm real?" or "Do you really not remember me?" Instead of asking questions, Blackwing accepts that they're just being dumb and gives a line to that effect. If it was supposed to be seen as critical plot information, and we were supposed to pick up on there being a reason behind their ignorance, he would not have responded that way. He responded in a way that signified it as Rule of Funny when there were many other ways he could have responded that would not have painted it like a joke.

This is a decent argument, and one that I hadn't considered, but it ultimately boils down to a subjective interpretation of the comic. The "ignorant cretins" part was indeed funny, but the set-up, which again underscored the amnesia that appears to have been inflicted on the order, appeared to me as yet another effort at highlighting the contradictions introduced by the earlier "joke" in #674. And it was this by-then repeated highlighting of those contradictions that cause me to interpret the whole matter as more than just a joke, as I've explained previously. Blackwing's response is less important than what he was responding to in the first place, and his unwillingness to confront Roy and Belkar about their amnesia could simply be because it was too early in the narrative to address the mystery directly.


Again, I'm not currently arguing whether their ignorance stems from the rift's effects or whatever. I'm just trying to say that every instance of the party not knowing who Blackwing is is very much intended to be seen as a joke. Whether it's only a joke or not, well, debate as you will. Personally I don't think it's impossible for it to be a rift effect, but if it is, it is supposed to be a twist, because everything up to this point was very much written in the style of a joke.

As many others have remarked, with my full agreement, it's ultimately a matter of interpretation. For me, everything written up to this point is very much written in the style of NOT a joke.

[The Linker]

Calling what appears to be a retcon, a retcon, isn't silly just because one isn't 100% sure that the label is accurate. If it quacks like a duck, and all that. I'm perfectly willing to concede, as I already have previously, that I can't know for sure if this was an intended or unintended change, and I even admitted that I prefer the interpretation that it was intended. But I'm willing to call it a retcon because, on the face of it, that's what it looks like.

If I'm not 100% sure on something I call it 'a possible retcon'. I don't call it a retcon and then spend several posts arguing for it being a retcon. I was pretty darn sure Geoff was responsible for keeping Ian locked up but I would never say 'It was definitely him' until it was proven.


This doesn't logically follow at all. This is actually one of the reasons I interpret it as NOT a joke. How does it being a Serious Comic dispensing Serious Plot Information require that past events would be picked randomly? For me, the selection of these two specific events was a signal that Canon Is Being Changed. A joke, to my mind, would have been delivered in a punchier manner - the Order would have forgotten about Blackwing, Vaarsuvius would have been angry, haha so funny! That Rich took the time to underscore the contradictions introduced by the joke signaled that he was fully aware of them, which implied that they were being introduced for some greater purpose.

But why were they picked? In-universe, I mean. Why did Haley and Belkar pick those two events? You offer no explanation for the incredible coincidence that occurred that they picked those two events out of hundreds of others where Blackwing wasn't present.

Again, it's an earth-shattering coincidence, Rule of Funny, or intentional chops-busting. You can advocate earth-shattering coincidence if you want, but at some point you you must realize when the odds are stacked against a certain argument.

[Loreweaver15]

This doesn't logically follow at all. This is actually one of the reasons I interpret it as NOT a joke. How does it being a Serious Comic dispensing Serious Plot Information require that past events would be picked randomly? For me, the selection of these two specific events was a signal that Canon Is Being Changed. A joke, to my mind, would have been delivered in a punchier manner - the Order would have forgotten about Blackwing, Vaarsuvius would have been angry, haha so funny! That Rich took the time to underscore the contradictions introduced by the joke signaled that he was fully aware of them, which implied that they were being introduced for some greater purpose.

But--Wh--She is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html) angry!

[Carlo]

If I'm not 100% sure on something I call it 'a possible retcon'. I don't call it a retcon and then spend several posts arguing for it being a retcon. I was pretty darn sure Geoff was responsible for keeping Ian locked up but I would never say 'It was definitely him' until it was proven.

A possible retcon then, if that's the terminology you prefer. I never argued that it was definitely a retcon, I argued that my use of the term was defensible, i.e. that it fit the definition. Others like orrion and Keltest were the ones who argued that it definitely wasn't a retcon, I suggest you take up your argument with them.


But why were they picked? In-universe, I mean. Why did Haley and Belkar pick those two events? You offer no explanation for the incredible coincidence that occurred that they picked those two events out of hundreds of others where Blackwing wasn't present.

The out-of-universe explanation seems sufficient to me. Nothing in the story is truly a coincidence, everything is crafted deliberately to a greater narrative, artistic, or comedic purpose. I feel pretty confident in guessing that not once did Rich ever roll d100 to assist in his writing.

[Carlo]

But--Wh--She is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html) angry!

Sorry, I must not have been clear. I simply meant that, to my mind, had Rich been joking, he would have glossed over the specific contradictions introduced by the joke, rather than highlighting them deliberately. He would have gotten to the punchline quicker, rather than wasting panels on an unnecessarily clunky set-up.

[The Linker]

I would also put forth that in the aforementioned seventh panel of #670, if it was supposed to be serious, Vaarsuvius would have brought up those moments. "Remember when I was a lizard and that raven chased me around?" "No, I don't think so." "But-- how--"

That would be an infinitely cleaner way of showing it to be something serious, rather than showing Haley and Belkar getting absurdly lucky and presenting the equivalent of two needles in a haystack as examples. The joke is in the absurdity of picking two of the worst moments to try and defend their argument.

That Haley and Belkar picked the moments themselves does nothing but undermine the seriousness of the situation. I can't emphasize that enough. It was the exact opposite of the correct way to show it as something serious that we should take seriously.

If these were not jokes, there were better ways to write them, plain and simple. There is a better, more serious way to write any of these panels to deter us from seeing them as jokes. Since he did not choose any of those ways, and instead specifically chose the most comedic way to do it, I can see no other conclusion to come to than 'It was supposed to be seen as a joke.' Whether there's something hidden under those jokes, as David Argall is saying, well, I'm not getting into that. But the camouflage is most certainly humor.

[The Giant]

Wait, this is a thing people thought? That the Rift had some sort of memory-erasing effect about Blackwing, and not Xykon?

Huh.

Nope. It was a joke; an arbitrary reversal of the old status quo regarding Blackwing for humorous purpose. The only reason I revisited it last strip is because I'm ending it now, and Blackwing will interact more with the rest of the team. There was no serious plot reason for it, except maybe as another means to stall the V-tells-Roy-the-truth-about-what-Blackwing-saw conversation to the end of the book instead of the beginning. Though really, V's guilt was already doing that job well enough; this just headed off the corollary question, "Why doesn't Blackwing just go and tell Roy on his own?"

Regarding the initial scene, my feeling was that Roy didn't remember because his own exposure to Blackwing was sharply limited, Belkar and Elan were goldfish-minded idiots, and Haley and Durkon were pulling V's leg. But ultimately, it was just a joke. A bit of silliness at the start of a new book that was fated to become really heavy later on. The fact that Blackwing only appeared when V remembered him was already a ridiculous contrivance with no given explanation, so switching it to another ridiculous contrivance is fair game as far as I'm concerned.

The fact of the matter is that if I introduced strip #3 now, there would be a 30-page thread discussing the likely cosmic ramifications and obvious plot importance of V's disappearing familiar. But sometimes, stuff happens because I think it's funny or interesting and I don't worry too much about logic or consistency.

[Loreweaver15]

Thank you for the clarification, Rich!

Sorry there needed to be clarification, Rich!

[David Argall]

The Oracle actually does wipe memories. I'm literally laughing at the irony here - the one time a memory wipe is confirmed to have occurred in the comic you're flat out ignoring it. It's baffling.
Reread my comments. I deal with the memory wipe several times. The basic point is that it is a partial wipe of the facts of what happened while in the valley. Despite what is said, Roy & Durkon both remember facts besides the questions and answers. In particular, they would remember Blackwing's question and answer, which means remembering the bird.



If by "gymnastics" you mean "not turn around," then yes, Roy would have had to do that to avoid seeing him in the woods. Roy was talking to Haley when Blackwing appeared and then the comic ends. Next one starts with V taking shelter under Roy and, again, Blackwing is behind him. There's no indication of how much time passed or in what direction(s) they went.
Actually we see Roy is walking at the start of 179 and has moved from Haley to Belkar, so some period of time, during which by your theory Roy must always face away from Blackwing, has passed. This quickly becomes a very difficult gymnastic feat as we are dealing with two moving objects



How? Elan wasn't there in comic #3, he was tied in a tent when Blackwing was scouting the bandit camp, and he wasn't on panel at any point in 178 or 179 while V was a lizard. And the party was basically ignoring V while he was a lizard and Elan isn't smart so it's highly dubious to think he'd have made the connection between V and the raven.
This is what I mean by deriving facts from conclusions. You start with the thesis that Blackwing is only seen when V thinks of him, and when the evidence suggests he is seen at other times, you reject the evidence. The more logical system is to reject the thesis when it does no match the evidence.



The better explanation is that Blackwing went to enjoy the tea party by himself, possibly because he was feeling ignored. Also, there's no evidence that Blackwing appears when other party members remember him. Only when V remembers him.
Now for starters, there is no known way for Blackwing to learn of the tea party, other than by Elan. So we are back to saying Elan remembered Blackwing. More painful for your theory, it says that Blackwing was active when V was not thinking of him, which negates the idea that he was only active when thought of.



It is not "evidence" to say that an ongoing story will have an element at some point from the billions of other stories that have been written.
Of course it is. It may not be very convincing evidence, nor very extensive in what it shows, but it is evidence.



The "book" will already be online before it's printed.
only a technical point. Online readers suffer the same appeal.



I suspect Rich didn't plan this particular bit this far ahead, but not because I mistrust him—it's because it doesn't matter. Contradictions are only an issue for matters of story significance; comedy absorbs, ignores, or thrives on them. You get a "Wah wah wahhh" from the trumpet and move on.
Sometimes. But you are assuming the lack of story significance here. And here we routinely mix story significance and comedy.
And a flaw is still a flaw, even if it on a trivial matter. We want to avoid it.

[Loreweaver15]

David you appear to have missed a post.

[Chantelune]

I was wondering when the Giant might come to cut down that tree. Hopefully, this will serve as a reminder that sometimes, "a joke is just a joke, even if some people doesn't find it funny". :smalltongue:

[Rodin]

David you appear to have missed a post.

Nah, it's just the Rift erasing his memories of the Giant. It's gone meta!

[The Linker]

Nah, it's just the Rift erasing his memories of the Giant. It's gone meta!

Memories of who? The author? I'd think if the author of the comic liked to come on this forum and post his thoughts on fan theories, I'd have noticed by now. :smallconfused:

[allenw]

Nope. It was a joke; an arbitrary reversal of the old status quo regarding Blackwing for humorous purpose.

Well, poot. :smallredface:
Okay, I was wrong. I think that makes my record 1-1-2.

[DeliaP]

Dear Giant,

Thanks for the clearing it up.

I just want to say something, as a lot of discussion on this thread has been couched in terms of the joke not working or not being funny.

For me, I found the #674 and #809 jokes extremely funny. In fact I found the panel with Blackwing telling Roy and Belkar they are ignorant cretins was (and still is) one of the biggest laugh out loud single panels so far in this book. Thanks for the funnies!

(Just in case the thread was reading too much like no-one thought the joke was funny.... :smallsmile:)


Well, poot. :smallredface:
Okay, I was wrong. I think that makes my record 1-1-2.

Congratulations: you win a consolation prize of your choice for being able to admit getting it wrong. The internet needs more people like you!

[Sunken Valley]

Durkon pulled V's leg!!! That's mean and I can't see Durkon doing that to V. Maybe Belkar but not V.

[DeliaP]

Durkon pulled V's leg!!! That's mean and I can't see Durkon doing that to V. Maybe Belkar but not V.

Ah, but Trigak would totally bust on V's chops.

[Sir_Leorik]

Wait, this is a thing people thought? That the Rift had some sort of memory-erasing effect about Blackwing, and not Xykon?

Huh.

Nope. It was a joke; an arbitrary reversal of the old status quo regarding Blackwing for humorous purpose.

Thank you. This particular epileptic tree has been in need of pruning for almost three years!

[orrion]

Reread my comments. I deal with the memory wipe several times. The basic point is that it is a partial wipe of the facts of what happened while in the valley. Despite what is said, Roy & Durkon both remember facts besides the questions and answers. In particular, they would remember Blackwing's question and answer, which means remembering the bird.

Why are you still posting about this? The Giant just shot your theory down.

[happyman]

I'm glad I waited until now to comment.

At first, I actually kind of agreed with the original idea that something might be up with Blackwing, but after reading this thread and rereading the relevant strips, I decided it was probably just a joke I didn't appreciate the first time. Certainly when I realized that it was Roy that drove it originally, and that from his point of view, everything he said made sense, the possibility of being metaphysically significant dropped a lot. Especially because Blackwing had no trouble interacting with new characters.

More to the point though, in light of the Giant's comments, how well do we really know Durkon? I've just gotten my copies of NCftPB and W&XP's (already owned the others; last time I tried to buy them, they were sold out), which led to some serious comic-rereading. I can't help but feel, after the reread, that Durkon's death and vamping lead, in some people's minds, to a very human tendency to---eulogize Durkon. He was a good guy before, but bland as he seemed, there was much more to him than just Lawful Good. The fact that he egged on V in his treatment of Belkar should prove that he was no saint, even then.

[Liliet]

Wow, how epically ninja'd I was. I won't erase this whole post, though.


When I say Rule of Funny trumps everything I'm referring to the Giant himself. I don't have time to find the quote right now, but there was one where he listed the "order of importance," if you will. If I'm remembering correctly, jokes topped the list.

Whether you agree with that is something else entirely.

You are correct in that the Giant probably won't sacrifice everything for a joke. However, that's a 2 way street. It's equally unlikely that the Giant would take a series of events that were clearly jokes and turn them into a significant plot point when it makes the story suffer. The inconsistencies with this theory do just that.
Give me the context, then I'll have something to argue about. Until then - I'm not contradicting the Giant. I am saying the thing that is true: the Giant won't sacrifice everything for a joke.

I agree with the conclusion, that this is most likely not about rift exposure and that this was a joke, but not with the arguments. The arguments are so horrible I've taken the risk of confusing everyone by arguing against my own point.



While no webcomic's story has enraptured me to the point where I've purchased all the books, a calendar, and a friggin' fridge magnet like Order of the Stick -- I think this one instance where people are just thinking too highly of him. Or simply misrepresenting his chain of importance in regards to rule of funny vs. plot coherence.

The simplest and most plausible explanation, to me, is:

#674: "Hey, it'd be pretty funny to have everyone forget Blackwing just like V spent the rest of the comic's run forgetting about Blackwing."

#943: "I want to integrate Blackwing into the party more. Hmm... for Haley, I'll include a throwaway line where she says she was just kidding before. Elan... hah, I could just say he actually forgot. I'll throw something together for Roy and Belkar later, maybe."

No matter what reason you think the party ignored Blackwing before, Haley saying something about why she was acknowledging Blackwing now needed to be done. He can't just give no explanation, or that'd be even weirder. This was a quick and easy explanation that -- to most -- didn't raise any questions. It's just a couple panels that serve like a switch between 'Blackwing is ignored by everyone' to 'Blackwing is treated like an actual character now.'

The joke that they were all denying Blackwing's existence also makes it easier to justify why Blackwing wouldn't, say, just tell Roy what he saw in the rift. It allows Blackwing to serve as someone for Vaarsuvius to talk to who won't tell the rest of the party anything -- even the really important, relevant-to-their-quest stuff.



I believe that he was referring to the fact that you present 'the characters did forget' and the 'the characters are playing a joke' as if the answer could not be 'some of them forgot and some of them are playing a joke.' Which is exactly what happened (when you take the latest strip at face value) with Haley and Elan.
I don't think it was anything like a retcon. A retcon requires ignoring some of the previously established points. Merely finding out things about the past is not a retcon, is not bad writing, and is in fact a huge part of the plot of most books. This is what the whole detective genre is built on.

And it was not "just" a joke, which is why the "Rule of Funny" arguments irritate me so much.

V forgetting about Blackwing initially, beside being a joke, established an important point about this character: V doesn't care about other living beings all that much. V is ignorant to the point where ve doesn't remember vir own familiar, the only creature in the world that's unfortunate enough to rely on V's attention span to remind vir of himself.

Several next iterations of meeting Blackwing establish that the raven is not OK with it and doesn't think it's something natural that always happens and is nothing to fret about (refuses to speak Common, prefers hunting a random lizard to finding out where his master went, gladly testifies against his master in a court, refuses to protect his master in combat).

The continuation of the gag is about V finally facing the consequences of vir ignorance. Ve has finally remembered about Blackwing, but because of vir ignorance no-one else remembers him, even though they should. A boy crying "Wolf!" is met with disbelief when the real wolf happens. It is played for laughs, but it is a lesson to V.

And now? Now is the interesting part: as V has stepped on the road to redemption, he started earning forgiveness. Turns out his past screw-ups were not as bad as they seemed; not everyone forgot Blackwing. This one "horrible atrocity" is let slide.


And the fact that this chain of events is lined up so perfectly makes me pretty confident Rich has planned this from the start; maybe not in details, but the whole character arc was conceived beforehand.


The argument that several people having different reasons for the same behavior is contrived, but that something is unlikely doesn't mean it won't happen... well, it defeats itself and says everything there is to say on the matter. I'd just like to add that it's in no way unlikely.

And Belkar, personally, was playing prank not just on V, but also on Roy, which explains his reaction to Blackwing when he appeared before them. Roy is even funnier (from Belkar's point of view). And Blackwing's irritation? Comedy gold. Well, either that or Belkar forgot. Forgetting is not implausible and not unlikely.

What's pretty goddamn unlikely is that there was a bird all along with the party and Roy never noticed it. It is what actually happened, but it's implausible and difficult to believe. Which serves to further establish that V's level of ignorance, while probably normal to DnD players in our world, is in no way normal or common or acceptable in-universe.


Oh, and the reason why I don't think there will be a rift explanation? Because it invalidates the part of V's character arc this presents. It's not V's fault Blackwing stared into the rift; in fact, this was one of vir more heroic points (aka balls of steel paladin style). Blackwing being forgotten has clearly been presented as V's fault; if we nullify that, we nullify the lesson of that scene, and saying that Rich doesn't write his story for lessons is like saying you've never read a single post of his.

[blunk]

The fact that Blackwing only appeared when V remembered him was already a ridiculous contrivance with no given explanation, so switching it to another ridiculous contrivance is fair game as far as I'm concerned.I think the "I was pulling V's leg" joke doesn't work so well because it's a far less ridiculous contrivance than the original (and I suggested a suitably-ridiculous alternative - that the OOTS subsequently forgot that they forgot - upthread). But whatever, misfires happen.

[David Argall]

{{scrubbed}}

[orrion]

{{scrubbed}}

You don't listen to any of the other comments, so what difference does it make that lots of other people are willing?

The idea that the Giant only spends his time doing 2 things - posting on the forum and writing comics - is hilariously dumb. Quite presumptuous of you to comment on that, too.

[Loreweaver15]

{{scrubbed}}

They didn't "need" anything, David, they worked fine as jokes on their own. 943 just brings the joke to a formal close.

Also, where do you get off telling Rich how to spend his time?

[Chantelune]

{{scrubbed}}

Yeah, considering that a good part of "the writer"'s posts on this forum are to cut down crazy theories such as this one, a way to have him post less, as you seem to find him replying around there to be a waste of time, might be to stop overanalysing every little joke out there and building ludicrous theories to explain why they can't be just that : a joke. :smallannoyed:

[blunk]

Yeah, considering that a good part of "the writer"'s posts on this forum are to cut down crazy theories such as this one, a way to have him post less, as you seem to find him replying around there to be a waste of time, might be to stop overanalysing every little joke out there and building ludicrous theories to explain why they can't be just that : a joke. :smallannoyed:Hanging around these forums is good practice in patience and self-discipline.

[ti'esar]

{{scrubbed}}

Did... did you just refer to yourself as a single person?

[martianmister]

What determines whether a retcon is a retcon is authorial planning...it is only a retcon if the author didn't know on page 50 that it was going to be a handsaw...In this case, I suspect Rich didn't plan this particular bit this far ahead...Now, the gag has run its course and become a distraction, so Rich is giving the audience a nod that the gag is over and Blackwing will be a regular character from here on out.

Which make it a retcon.

[Gift Jeraff]

Did... did you just refer to yourself as a single person?

He has always typed in singular first-person.[/retcon]

[jere7my]

Which make it a retcon.

Uh...yes. As I said, I suspect it was a retcon, but a) there's no way to know for sure, and b) I don't care, because it's only retconning a running gag, and doesn't create story inconsistencies.

If an author comes up with something cool in episode 200 they didn't think of in episode 3, and they can work it in without creating inconsistencies, that's a good thing, despite it being a retcon. That's how lots of long-form creative work gets made.

[The Linker]

The issue is settled now anyway, since the Giant has confirmed that he considered Haley to have been busting V's chops since the beginning. It's not a retcon since there was authorial intent from the beginning. All is well!