grappling goliaths

[evilserran]

Powerful build goliath Racial: Does it allow a goliath to grapple huge enemies? Normally you can only grapple one size above or larger. Me and my dm are currently discussing this and are in opposition.. Naturally i am the goliath and saying i can, he is saying i can't.

[Gwendol]

You can't. Unless you are a raging goliath barbarian grappler (which you should be) and become Large when raging.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Would grapple count as a "Special attack based on size?" in which case he would be treated as being large for being grappled but only medium when he is grappling.

[evilserran]

I am a barbarian, but how do i use the rage to grow large? And i was under the interpretation as suggested by supermonkeyjoe "special attack based on size"

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's nothing in the grappling rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) that states you cannot grapple an opponent more than one size difference from yourself. Certain special attacks such as Improved Grab have such limitations, but Grappling itself does not.

[Diovid]

I am a barbarian, but how do i use the rage to grow large? And i was under the interpretation as suggested by supermonkeyjoe "special attack based on size"
By taking the 1st Goliath Barbarian substitution level mentioned in the racial substitution levels section of Races of Stone.

[Gwendol]

There's nothing in the grappling rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) that states you cannot grapple an opponent more than one size difference from yourself. Certain special attacks such as Improved Grab have such limitations, but Grappling itself does not.

Actually, the limitation on starting a grapple is two size categories:


Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

[evilserran]

Gwendol with that wording which is what my dm pointed out, that limits you to grapple one size, if you are medium you can grapple large, but automatically fail huge You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. So this is why i want to know if being a goliath bypasses this limitation to grappling huge, since "powerful build" generally counts you as being a size larger, i.e. large so can grapple huge but not the next step (gargantuan?)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, Powerful Build makes you count as one size larger whenever it would be beneficial, including when determining what size opponents you can grapple.

[Gwendol]

After reading through the text I quoted earlier I have to retract my previously stated opposition: yes, a goliath qualifies for grappling larger opponents by virtue of powerful build, meaning they can in fact initiate grapple with gargantuan creatures.

[evilserran]

So general consensus, and to bump, most people are saying a medium goliath can, with powerful build still grapple a 2 size larger creature (gargantuan). Does anyone have any other sources/erratas, suggestions,interpretations evidence one way or the other i can bring to the table?

[Crake]

Yes, Powerful Build makes you count as one size larger whenever it would be beneficial, including when determining what size opponents you can grapple.

That's actually a gross overassessment of the ability. It specifically says


Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts, the goliath is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

It also goes on to say about special attacks against him treat him as one size category larger and allowing him to use one size category larger weapons. It is not an ability that gives you a blanket benefit of being larger whenever it suits you, so no bonuses to carrying capacity, hell, you don't even get size bonuses for unopposed checks if there happened to be any.

The very fact that it specifically says the benefit only applies to the opposed checks would lead me to go with a no on goliaths grappling huge enemies, although I would say that a small person attempting to grapple them would be unable to do so due to the second clause about them being treated as larger when enemies are attacking them with special attacks.