Question about invisibility spell and what breaks it.

[Deca4531]

My google-fu fails me on this one. I want to make a rogue based around battle field control, all while making use of his ring of invisibility. Now I know attacking will break the spell but what about things like tripping or disarming. I think it would be awesome if I could glide around the field tieing shoe laces together. I was also wondering about setting traps, like a trip wire.

[Gwendol]

Tripping and disarming are attacks, so I think that would end invisibility. Setting traps is not however.

[Deca4531]

Tripping and disarming are attacks, so I think that would end invisibility. Setting traps is not however.

From what I have read trip is normally a melee touch attack, but if I were to say tie a rope around someone's foot I wouldn't be directly attacking would I, since he wouldn't be tripped unless he tried to move.

[Diarmuid]

What mechanic would you be using to represent "tying a rope around someone's feet"?

[Gnaeus]

Ring works like spell. Spell description says:


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

If casting grease is an attack, tripping is likely an attack. If applying any debuff is an attack, tying shoelaces together is likely an attack. Shoes are clearly not unattended objects.

You need a wand of greater invisibility or dust of disappearance to make this work. Or just restrain yourself to setting traps.

[Melcar]

What mechanic would you be using to represent "tying a rope around someone's feet"?

Either Sleight of Hand or Use Rope, or both!

[Deca4531]

Ring works like spell. Spell description says:



If casting grease is an attack, tripping is likely an attack. If applying any debuff is an attack, tying shoelaces together is likely an attack. Shoes are clearly not unattended objects.

You need a wand of greater invisibility or dust of disappearance to make this work. Or just restrain yourself to setting traps.

Grease would only be an attack if I placed it in an opponents square.

[Gnaeus]

Grease would only be an attack if I placed it in an opponents square.

True. And tying someones shoelaces together is only an attack if they are wearing the shoes. Of course, the other way is kind of useless, but there you go.

[Deca4531]

So what would be some useful things I could pull off?

[Slipperychicken]

So what would be some useful things I could pull off?

Sneak past the guy and get to your objective? That gets you XP as if you defeated him.

Use sleight of hand to steal most of his stuff before he notices you? That gives the loot too.

[evilserran]

You can disable device... "undo their belt" pants fall and they thus trip because of pants, not you. (i would allow this for the pure hilarity of it, your dm mileage may vary) You could also drop caltrops or make traps as previously mentioned. What about sleight of hand to relieve the caster of his spell book, or the ranged character of his ammunition.

[Gnaeus]

You can disable device... "undo their belt" pants fall and they thus trip because of pants, not you. (i would allow this for the pure hilarity of it, your dm mileage may vary) You could also drop caltrops or make traps as previously mentioned. What about sleight of hand to relieve the caster of his spell book, or the ranged character of his ammunition.

Your DM mileage may always vary. RAW, almost all of those things are attended objects, and will thus be an attack if you try to use them to impose negative effects on a target.

[Deca4531]

You can disable device... "undo their belt" pants fall and they thus trip because of pants, not you. (i would allow this for the pure hilarity of it, your dm mileage may vary) You could also drop caltrops or make traps as previously mentioned. What about sleight of hand to relieve the caster of his spell book, or the ranged character of his ammunition.

Those are some really good ideas, ill have to run them past my DM. I was thinking of going pixie so I wouldn't have to worry about breaking stealth but I don't know if the 4 LA would be worth it.

[Fouredged Sword]

+4 LA is hard to swallow. It is worth it for Pixie though, but be aware that after ECL 10 or so, things start to see invis in various ways. You need immunity to see invis and darkstalker to hide from alternate modes of detection.

[Techwarrior]

+4 LA is hard to swallow. It is worth it for Pixie though, but be aware that after ECL 10 or so, things start to see invis in various ways. You need immunity to see invis and darkstalker to hide from alternate modes of detection.

A permanent Invisible Spell fog spell does wonders for this. Also, yes Pixie is worthwhile.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, a DC 20 slight of hand check can take any small object away from somebody so long as they are not holding it. ANY SMALL OBJECT. I am looking at YOU spell component pouches!

[evilserran]

Yes i alluded to the lifting of component pouches earlier, also, caltrops are not "attended". I was just offering some verious options, some will break based on your dm's interpretations some will not, for example, you can scatter those caltrops wherever you want, despite the silly fact that you are now dropping spikes into visibilty from invisibility, it does not break your invisibility

[Fouredged Sword]

A wand of Sculpt Invisible summon caltrops is a hilarious spell. And low enough level to be a eternal wand as a level 1 spell (though I would slap extend on there to boos the CL and duration.

It doesn't target people even if cast in their area, so they won't notice until they attempt to move. Then they get their foot impaled half the time (the caltrops are invisible, so no dex to AC, and caltrops, so at most a +2 armor bonus)

Not very effective VS targets with natural armor, but hey, funny with humanoids!

[Gnaeus]

An attack includes any spell ....whose area OR effect includes a foe.

[Max Caysey]

An attack includes any spell ....whose area OR effect includes a foe.

Meaning that if you cast a fireball blindfolded, and do not hit oyour foe, you do not become visible, but if you vere to do the exact same move where you did hit your foe you become visible?:smallconfused: Imagine fist casting in round one... second in round two.

WHat then if the guy has evation and saves?

[Deophaun]

WHat then if the guy has evation and saves?
Same thing as if you attack someone with a knife and miss their AC; you become visible. That the attack was ineffective doesn't matter, what matters is that an attempt on the target was made and he was in the area.

Invisible Spell doesn't necessarily make actual spell effects invisible; it makes the "manifestation" invisible, which is undefined and could just mean whatever theatrics that brings the spell into existence (which would be a balanced +0 metamagic effect). And no, it's not referring to the Effect line in a spell in its one mention of a spell's effects, because it uses that word in reference to fireball, which has no Effect line.

[nedz]

An attack includes any spell ....whose area OR effect includes a foe.
Fireballing your friends is cool then ? :smallwink:

Greasing an area which is not currently occupied can be a useful tactic, though it can backfire.

[Chronos]

Greasing an area which is not currently occupied can be a useful tactic, though it can backfire.
Example: Ready an action to cast it right in front of someone if they charge. They have to make both a save and a balance check (the latter at a penalty, even), and even if they succeed on both, the charge is interrupted. And they're not in the area when you cast it, so it won't break invisibility.

[holywhippet]

I was in one game where we had to cover some open area to attack a tower held by goblins. Problem was, there were goblins on the roof with ranged weapons and we had to cover a fair amount of open ground first. But since attacks against unattended objects don't stop the spell we had our dwarf fighter made invisible and walk across to the tower door and smash it in before we commenced the attack.