Julio is terminally ill/wounded

[The Oni]

#943 - "It won't be much use where I'm going"? "Long overdue vacation to...Arborea," anyone? Arborea is (in at least one setting) the Chaotic Good afterlife; granted, one can planeshift there for the lulz but I have a feeling Julio'd take his sword if he intended to come back, with as many powerful enemies as he has.

Could be he took a nasty hit offscreen with Tarquin, or maybe he's been ill for a while and figures it caught up to him. Naturally, obscuring this information until the latest possible opportunity would be the most dramatic way to handle it.

[Kish]

1) Julio's made it clear he doesn't want to die; if he was terminally ill/wounded, why would he be going away from the cleric who can cast Heal, not to mention Julio's own collection of potions?
2) Julio is Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.

[littlebum2002]

So he's Dumbledore? Will he let one of his crew members kill him for XP?

[Keltest]

Or maybe he just needs a convenient way out of the story. Were in phase "Wrap things up, cause this book is getting really long." of the story, and Julio is too powerful an asset to just leave with the Order for the rest of the story.

[xroads]

#943 - "It won't be much use where I'm going"? "Long overdue vacation to...Arborea," anyone? Arborea is (in at least one setting) the Chaotic Good afterlife; granted, one can planeshift there for the lulz but I have a feeling Julio'd take his sword if he intended to come back, with as many powerful enemies as he has.

Hmmm... That's definitely an interesting thought. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past Rich to throw us a red herring.



1) Julio's made it clear he doesn't want to die; if he was terminally ill/wounded, why would he be going away from the cleric who can cast Heal, not to mention Julio's own collection of potions?


Perhaps his original aversion to death was based on his knowing his time was short and him wanting to make the most of it? And maybe he's recently decided not to recieve healing from the cleric because he thinks that now would be a glorious moment to move onto the after life?

[King of Nowhere]

he really don't seem the type to pass up the chance for healing, so the only "illness" he could be dieing of is old age. and he don't look past 60 to me.
so i'm just going with "he's planeshifting there for a vacation".

applying occam's razor to stories will never lead me to figure out big reveals, but since most "clues" are just casual conversations without hidden meanings, it still let me be right most of the time

[The Pilgrim]

granted, one can planeshift there for the lulz but I have a feeling Julio'd take his sword if he intended to come back, with as many powerful enemies as he has.

Maybe the Chaos Sabre is not the most powerful weapon he has. It makes sense to use it when he knows he'll be facing an extremely lawful character like Tarquin, but he has better all-purpose weapons.

Plus, he knows that he's not to face Tarquin again, as the General no longer belongs to his rogue gallery, but to Elan's story.

Or, maybe, he just has a spare Chaos Sabre.

[Loreweaver15]

It's really just "I know you guys are on a big quest and I'm uninterested in risking my life for it when I can just hand you my resources and relax for the next bit."

[MrQ]

Yeah, plane shifting isn't that far fetched, considering we're talking about epic-level character.

And considering the fact that in ootsverse, nothing short of disintegration is any way to guarantee at least semi-permanent death (Old age? Here, have some wish with your heal.) I don't think that's plausible, even as a plot point.

I mean, precedents as they go, we have Shojo, but that was just a fancy way of saying screw you.

[Fooliscious]

I'm looking at it as him fulfilling his trope. He was supposed to die according to how stories work. He may be thinking its still going to come, just in a different way.

So where does he go when he dies? That's up for debate, but if it was Arborea he's trying to cheat the system. He could be thinking he found a loop hole. If he goes where he was going anyway if he were to die, poof! Trope fulfilled, and he's still alive.

Just a thought.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, plane shifting isn't that far fetched, considering we're talking about epic-level character.

Which epic-level character is that now? :smallconfused:

Julio Scoundrel never claimed to be epic-level.

[sparky9042]

Julio Scoundrel being epic-level is at least a nonzero possibility, since he's mentioned having ten levels in Dashing Swordsman and appears to be a match for Tarquin, who the Class and Level Geekery thread pins as Epic, in combat.

[Sir_Leorik]

#943 - "It won't be much use where I'm going"? "Long overdue vacation to...Arborea," anyone? Arborea is (in at least one setting) the Chaotic Good afterlife; granted, one can planeshift there for the lulz but I have a feeling Julio'd take his sword if he intended to come back, with as many powerful enemies as he has.

"Plane Shift? Where we're going we don't need Plane Shift!"

Seriously, there are more ways to get to the Outer Planes than that. Most notably, are Portals, doorways between reality that lead from one Plane to another. All Julio has to do is fly over to the Elven Woodlands and zoom through a Portal to the realm of an Elven court on Arborea, or enter one of many Portals to Sigil, City of Doors, and go to the Civic Festhall.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Old age? Here, have some wish with your heal.

Nope. As established, not just by Shojo but also Roy's dad, old age death is not easily escaped from in OotS.

Grey Wolf

[Socksy]

Or perhaps he just doesn't want to fight chaotic-aligned things on a chaotic-aligned plane using a chaotic-aligned weapon?

[Bulldog Psion]

Interesting idea. Probably not the case, but ... who knows?

[MrMercury]

Or maybe he just needs a convenient way out of the story. Were in phase "Wrap things up, cause this book is getting really long." of the story, and Julio is too powerful an asset to just leave with the Order for the rest of the story.

deus ex machina

[KillianHawkeye]

Or perhaps he just doesn't want to fight chaotic-aligned things on a chaotic-aligned plane using a chaotic-aligned weapon?

Probably this. A chaos-aligned weapon would serve pretty poorly in a chaos-aligned plane where all of the native creatures are chaotic.

[mikeejimbo]

deus ex machina

Or maybe deus ex mechane.

[The Oni]

Incurable plot-related illnesses (or those with only one possible cure) crop up in lots of campaigns.

Also, Scoundrel's modus operandi of deliberately tormenting tyrants and rescuing pretty ladies may not be the pinnacle of heroism but it does seem decidedly North-of-neutral. If Roy can qualify for the Celestial Realms, Scoundrel could definitely qualify for Arborea.

[Kish]

Your argument is one-half "Rich could do something out of the blue that he's never even hinted at being the case in his world" and one-half "I disagree with Rich's statement of his character's alignment." At which point, ah...you have fun with that.

[Prospekt]

Or maybe, just maybe, Julio was, y'know, joking about it? Considering that's entirely appropriate for his character to do- he's not exactly a stick in the mud and, seriously, are people actually taking everything he says seriously? This is Julio Scoundrel we're talking about, not Roy or Durkon. I'm pretty sure that once again, the tropes that usually go with heroes and mentors are being parodied, made fun of, subverted, etc. It's poking fun at the fact that the mentor dies before the story is over, so the hero has to develop on his own.

He was also reading the letter out loud through a can, and then saying, "Well first, I need to go use the bathroom." :smallsigh:

I'm going to go with him handing the reigns to Elan and he's just gonna do whatever he wants.

[orrion]

Incurable plot-related illnesses (or those with only one possible cure) crop up in lots of campaigns.

Also, Scoundrel's modus operandi of deliberately tormenting tyrants and rescuing pretty ladies may not be the pinnacle of heroism but it does seem decidedly North-of-neutral. If Roy can qualify for the Celestial Realms, Scoundrel could definitely qualify for Arborea.

No doubt if Scoundrel had mentioned Celestia instead you'd be arguing he was Lawful Good.

[martianmister]

He'll commit suicide.

Why? Because he's Elan's mentor and dying mentor is an important part of hero's journey.

[Loreweaver15]

He'll commit suicide.

Why? Because he's Elan's mentor and dying mentor is an important part of hero's journey.

But...that's ludicrous? He only responded to Elan's call for help when he was challenged to defy that kind of story.

[The Oni]

No doubt if Scoundrel had mentioned Celestia instead you'd be arguing he was Lawful Good.

I would not. He's definitely Chaotic and possibly Good, but nothing he does would be considered Lawful. Give me some credit - there is a method to my insanity, if nothing else.

[BaronOfHell]

That's an unpleasant thought. Here's another hypothesis. Julio is actually homosexual. Also he has the power to make men pregnant.

This is very likely to be true because
1) Julio has a child in every port. Hence he can make a lover pregnant.
2) Julio's closest bond to anyone in the comic is to Elan, and summer camp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

[jere7my]

He'll commit suicide.

Why? Because he's Elan's mentor and dying mentor is an important part of hero's journey.

Uh...did everybody miss last strip, where Durkula vamped Julio? I mean, it was just one strip ago. Anyway, he's already dead, so problem solved.

[BaronOfHell]

Uh...did everybody miss last strip, where Durkula vamped Julio? I mean, it was just one strip ago.

How did I miss that!!???

[martianmister]

But...that's ludicrous? He only responded to Elan's call for help when he was challenged to defy that kind of story.

Yes, and now he'll defy his own story.

[Kish]

I would not. He's definitely Chaotic and possibly Good, but nothing he does would be considered Lawful. Give me some credit - there is a method to my insanity, if nothing else.
Sorry, you used up all your credit saying "I think this character is a different alignment than his author has explicitly said he is."

[Ramien]

He'll commit suicide.

Why? Because he's Elan's mentor and dying mentor is an important part of hero's journey.

That would explain why he needed to go to the head... he wanted to leave his corpse in as pristine a condition as possible.

[orrion]

I would not. He's definitely Chaotic and possibly Good, but nothing he does would be considered Lawful. Give me some credit - there is a method to my insanity, if nothing else.

You're already arguing against what the Giant stated on Julio's alignment, which is rather like arguing 2+2 is 5. How much credit do you deserve for that?

[Tebryn]

I would not. He's definitely Chaotic and possibly Good, but nothing he does would be considered Lawful. Give me some credit - there is a method to my insanity, if nothing else.

Since Kish won't provide a link, here's The Giant with a list of who is Neutral. You'll note Julio is in the Chaotic Neutral camp. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889)

[martianmister]

That would explain why he needed to go to the head... he wanted to leave his corpse in as pristine a condition as possible.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoDeadBodyPoops

[Loreweaver15]

Since Kish won't provide a link, here's The Giant with a list of who is Neutral. You'll note Julio is in the Chaotic Neutral camp. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889)

Kish didn't provide a link because I already did that :P
EDIT: Also, apologies, martianmister, misread which sets of identical avatars belonged to whom.

[martianmister]

Kish didn't provide a link because I already did that :P

Wrong thread.

[Loreweaver15]

Wrong thread.

Holy crap, that too. Two threads starting on different topics ending up at the exact same place talked about by half a dozen of the same people-slash-avatars.

Maybe I should call it a night.

[Ramien]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoDeadBodyPoops

All tropes can be subverted as needed.

[martianmister]

All tropes can be subverted as needed.

Which is what Julio did. :smallbiggrin:

[Tebryn]

Holy crap, that too. Two threads starting on different topics ending up at the exact same place talked about by half a dozen of the same people-slash-avatars.

Maybe I should call it a night.

I checked the thread before posting the link. No one had posted it :smalltongue:

[orrion]

I checked the thread before posting the link. No one had posted it :smalltongue:

Heh, that post has been linked at least 3 times.. I linked it in the main discussion thread earlier today as well.

[hagnat]

he really don't seem the type to pass up the chance for healing, so the only "illness" he could be dieing of is old age. and he don't look past 60 to me.

liver failure
i would bet on that too

[Socksy]

There is a high-level cleric below deck.

[Lombard]

Maybe he has people in Arborea... family, friends, mentor, favorite lover, etc.

[nyjastul69]

...
2) Julio is Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.

Has this been established through the comic or is this just your opinion?

[Tebryn]

Has this been established through the comic or is this just your opinion?

It's Word of Author. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889)

[nyjastul69]

It's Word of Author. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889)

Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that post. C-N would have been my guess. I didn't know it had been stated by the author.

Edit: I also asked that question before finishing the thread. I know better than to do that. :smallredface:

[The Oni]

All I'm saying is, nothing Julio's done on screen would be considered Evil, but he has committed many, many selfless and heroic acts both on screen and off. It's implied that he's a thief, yes, but that didn't stop Haley from being CG.

If Rich came out and stated "O-chul is a 5th Level Wizard" I suppose you'd accept this conclusion the basis of Word of Giant? Authors make mistakes. Sometimes they even straight-up lie, or screw with the readership. If Julio is truly intended to be Chaotic Neutral, he isn't being portrayed very well, which would make him quite an anomaly within the comic given Rich's consistent portrayal of alignment so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author

[ti'esar]

Being neutral doesn't mean committing good and evil deeds in equal fashion (except for certain crazy variants of TN). I personally think Julio's been pretty consistently portrayed as CN with good tendencies. He's not a particularly bad person, but he's fairly self-interested, has displayed a certain lack of concern about his actions harming others, and adventures more for the drama of it than to help people. For instance, I think it's significant that, while Julio's rescued some of Tarquin's "brides", he's never apparently tried to overthrow him or stop him from hurting anyone else.

Even if you disagree with all that, though, what possible reason would Rich have for lying about Julio's alignment?

[The Oni]

In this case, I don't think he's lying; I think he's made a mistake, and hasn't portrayed Julio as Neutral but rather as quite Good.

The other possibility, which just now occurs to me, is that Julio is a true foil for Tarquin in the sense that, like Tarquin, he is truly playing a role. If Julio is Good because the role he's playing is Good, then he's Good for the wrong reasons, which would probably mean his alignment isn't what he thinks it is.

IF he's wrong about his own alignment, though, it may be that he *thinks* he's CG - and he'd still expect to go to Arborea, if he died shortly hereafter - which he just might.

[MrQ]

Which epic-level character is that now? :smallconfused:

Julio Scoundrel never claimed to be epic-level.

Considering the order didn't get so much as a scratch in unless severely disadvantaged, while Julio wasn't even threatened is a good indicative.

And we know he's no fighter. Cha-bonus or not, an epic fighter will mop the floor with pretty much everything in melee.

Nothing conclusive, I admit, but we remember what happened with 13th lvl Roy getting cocky with low-level Xykon.

We are, in the end, talking about orders of magnitude here, after all.

[MrQ]

Nope. As established, not just by Shojo but also Roy's dad, old age death is not easily escaped from in OotS.

Grey Wolf

There's no indication of dad's been wished back to life, nor was there any conclusively proven will on his part when it comes to staying alive.

I guess few resurrections tend to do you in.

[Rodin]

Considering the order didn't get so much as a scratch in unless severely disadvantaged, while Julio wasn't even threatened is a good indicative.

And we know he's no fighter. Cha-bonus or not, an epic fighter will mop the floor with pretty much everything in melee.

Nothing conclusive, I admit, but we remember what happened with 13th lvl Roy getting cocky with low-level Xykon.

We are, in the end, talking about orders of magnitude here, after all.

Note that Julio was fighting purely defensively - it was clearly indicated that Roy didn't think that the Order and Julio combined could have taken Tarquin & Laurin.

As such, it's hard to really pin a level on Julio, other than "high level"

[MrQ]

Note that Julio was fighting purely defensively - it was clearly indicated that Roy didn't think that the Order and Julio combined could have taken Tarquin & Laurin.

As such, it's hard to really pin a level on Julio, other than "high level"

With Laurin being the black sheep, oots already being laid to waste and Tarquin already proven to be able to whup them singlehandedly when party in full power?

Julio might've survived that, but as for the party itself....

What I gathered, that was risk management more than anything else.

[Loreweaver15]

More relevantly, Roy had to infer what Julio was doing--which indicates that Julio didn't think that he and the Order combined could survive a fight with Laurin and Tarquin.

[orrion]

All I'm saying is, nothing Julio's done on screen would be considered Evil, but he has committed many, many selfless and heroic acts both on screen and off. It's implied that he's a thief, yes, but that didn't stop Haley from being CG.

If Rich came out and stated "O-chul is a 5th Level Wizard" I suppose you'd accept this conclusion the basis of Word of Giant? Authors make mistakes. Sometimes they even straight-up lie, or screw with the readership. If Julio is truly intended to be Chaotic Neutral, he isn't being portrayed very well, which would make him quite an anomaly within the comic given Rich's consistent portrayal of alignment so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author

I don't think you understand the Neutral alignment. Being Neutral doesn't mean you do equivalent Good and Evil acts, or even that you must do Evil acts at some point. The essence of neutrality is freedom. For example, if Julio were Chaotic Good then he'd likely be trying to overthrow Tarquin, or at least trying to liberate people from the empire. Instead his response is very targeted; he takes every opportunity to annoy Tarquin personally, but there's no indication that he cares about Tarquin's greater scheme or has done anything to undermine it.

Chaotic Neutral also carries a heavy element of individuality, and this matches Julio quite well. He doesn't want to come to help Elan initially when Elan mentions "an evil villain bent on conquest," which should have been enough for anyone Good aligned. Instead, he waits until Elan proposes something that appeals to his individualism (a "special hero" who defies stories themselves).

So I'd say Julio matches Chaotic Neutral pretty well.


Considering the order didn't get so much as a scratch in unless severely disadvantaged, while Julio wasn't even threatened is a good indicative.

And we know he's no fighter. Cha-bonus or not, an epic fighter will mop the floor with pretty much everything in melee.

Nothing conclusive, I admit, but we remember what happened with 13th lvl Roy getting cocky with low-level Xykon.

We are, in the end, talking about orders of magnitude here, after all.

Tarquin was on the ground using a freaking dagger and Julio was flying around on a carpet fighting defensively. Hardly a real indicator of Julio's real strength when matched against Tarquin.


With Laurin being the black sheep, oots already being laid to waste and Tarquin already proven to be able to whup them singlehandedly when party in full power?

Julio might've survived that, but as for the party itself....

What I gathered, that was risk management more than anything else.

If by "party at full power" you mean "without their wizard and initially using a strategy for fighting Thog," then yes, he was proven to whup them singlehandedly.

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't think you understand the Neutral alignment. Being Neutral doesn't mean you do equivalent Good and Evil acts, or even that you must do Evil acts at some point. The essence of neutrality is freedom. For example, if Julio were Chaotic Good then he'd likely be trying to overthrow Tarquin, or at least trying to liberate people from the empire. Instead his response is very targeted; he takes every opportunity to annoy Tarquin personally, but there's no indication that he cares about Tarquin's greater scheme or has done anything to undermine it.

Chaotic Neutral also carries a heavy element of individuality, and this matches Julio quite well. He doesn't want to come to help Elan initially when Elan mentions "an evil villain bent on conquest," which should have been enough for anyone Good aligned. Instead, he waits until Elan proposes something that appeals to his individualism (a "special hero" who defies stories themselves).

So I'd say Julio matches Chaotic Neutral pretty well.

I mostly agree with what you wrote orrion, but I'd just clarify that this applies to the Chaotic Neutral Alignment, not to the other Neutral Alignments. Lawful Neutral characters seek to obey the Law (whether of a country, a military, or a personal code of honor) and try not to deviate from it for either altruistic or Evil reasons. The classic example of a Lawful Neutral character is Javert from "Les Miserables", who refuses to give up his hunt for Jean Valjean, even when there are moral reasons to relent, at least for a few hours or days.

True Neutral characters cover a broader spectrum. Some, like Gannji and Enor are motivated by enlightened self-interest; they want to earn money (and yummies), and don't care that they're hunting down other people for a corrupt tyranny, so long as they get paid. Others, like Therkla, are caught between two different allegiances, and want to try and placate both. Then there's Mordenkainen and the 1E Druid class, who sought to enforce a balance between Good and Evil and Law and Chaos.

[orrion]

I mostly agree with what you wrote orrion, but I'd just clarify that this applies to the Chaotic Neutral Alignment, not to the other Neutral Alignments. Lawful Neutral characters seek to obey the Law (whether of a country, a military, or a personal code of honor) and try not to deviate from it for either altruistic or Evil reasons. The classic example of a Lawful Neutral character is Javert from "Les Miserables", who refuses to give up his hunt for Jean Valjean, even when there are moral reasons to relent, at least for a few hours or days.

True Neutral characters cover a broader spectrum. Some, like Gannji and Enor are motivated by enlightened self-interest; they want to earn money (and yummies), and don't care that they're hunting down other people for a corrupt tyranny, so long as they get paid. Others, like Therkla, are caught between two different allegiances, and want to try and placate both. Then there's Mordenkainen and the 1E Druid class, who sought to enforce a balance between Good and Evil and Law and Chaos.

Neutrality is still freedom; your own example states that Javert is free from moral implications. What type of freedom you have depends on which part of your alignment (or both) is Neutral.

[MrQ]

Tarquin was on the ground using a freaking dagger and Julio was flying around on a carpet fighting defensively. Hardly a real indicator of Julio's real strength when matched against Tarquin.


Yeah. Why defensively? CN character would have no inherent moral dilemmas in assaulting equal or superior threat even if said threat would be somewhat diminished.

We can assume that Julio would have around 10 (at max) levels of rogue, bard or even fighter, though I'm not any expert on character optimisation, but I'd see little to gain from CHA/STR- based tank build.

He's been foiling Tarquin enough to go from peeve to something akin to nemesis - he's been around long enough to know several of Tarquins' wifes.

Considering Tarquins' resources and capabilities, I'd say that even the mechane, with or without crew, would not be a real threat unless sufficiently leveled.


If by "party at full power" you mean "without their wizard and initially using a strategy for fighting Thog," then yes, he was proven to whup them singlehandedly.

Lacking V, their biggest gun was running empty, yeah. But Thog was no pushover, either. More than capable of beating the living crap out of Roy. I'd say that's pretty much a guarantee for an all out assault - which doesn't differ that much from what they did with Tarquin in the pyramid.

But we've seen that whatever they come up with, be it magic, direct physical damage or even subterfuge... it has had very little, if any, effect against T.

They needed to be fully restored against whatever lies after. Clearly the main tactician saw no way of being in such condition after prolonged fight with Tarquin, even with Julio and the Elf.

That said, it's more than plausible to assume Julio being a very high level character. Not unconceivably higher than Tarquin himself.

[orrion]

Yeah. Why defensively? CN character would have no inherent moral dilemmas in assaulting equal or superior threat even if said threat would be somewhat diminished.

We can assume that Julio would have around 10 (at max) levels of rogue, bard or even fighter, though I'm not any expert on character optimisation, but I'd see little to gain from CHA/STR- based tank build.

He's been foiling Tarquin enough to go from peeve to something akin to nemesis - he's been around long enough to know several of Tarquins' wifes.

Considering Tarquins' resources and capabilities, I'd say that even the mechane, with or without crew, would not be a real threat unless sufficiently leveled.


What do you mean "Why defensively?" That was answered in the comic itself - Julio was fighting to give the Order a chance to get away. Roy flat out says this. Check out panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html).

There's no evidence that he's been foiling Tarquin in general. He hasn't been working to undermine Tarquin's scheme, for instance. He'd have to be doing at least that before I'd call him a nemesis. Besides, there's nothing that states Julio/Tarquin would be the same level if Julio was his nemesis; they're both NPCs and that was a PC-NPC thing.



Lacking V, their biggest gun was running empty, yeah. But Thog was no pushover, either. More than capable of beating the living crap out of Roy. I'd say that's pretty much a guarantee for an all out assault - which doesn't differ that much from what they did with Tarquin in the pyramid.

But we've seen that whatever they come up with, be it magic, direct physical damage or even subterfuge... it has had very little, if any, effect against T.

:vaarsuvius: Forcecage!



They needed to be fully restored against whatever lies after. Clearly the main tactician saw no way of being in such condition after prolonged fight with Tarquin, even with Julio and the Elf.

That said, it's more than plausible to assume Julio being a very high level character. Not unconceivably higher than Tarquin himself.

I seriously doubt that Julio is the highest level character in OOTS aside from Xykon.

[MrQ]

What do you mean "Why defensively?" That was answered in the comic itself - Julio was fighting to give the Order a chance to get away. Roy flat out says this. Check out panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html).

Exactly. Why get away if presented with an opportunity to kick the snot out of a A) yet another recurring villain while considerably destabilising local power structure, based on tyranny and other fun bits and B) if odds were in their favor to accomplish this?


There's no evidence that he's been foiling Tarquin in general. He hasn't been working to undermine Tarquin's scheme, for instance. He'd have to be doing at least that before I'd call him a nemesis. Besides, there's nothing that states Julio/Tarquin would be the same level if Julio was his nemesis; they're both NPCs and that was a PC-NPC thing.

There are some more than subtle hints, certainly. Fighting him like it was no big thing, implying some experience on the matter WHILE making sure odds really, really were on his side (opponent with a dagger, instead of Mastercrafted +5 GreatAxe of Eternal Flame and Cancer, higher manueverability, higher ground, chaos blade, fighting defensively) and besides the odds, was only guy to score a direct hit, taunting about wives, B-list villainy...

Being genre-savvy, he'd known he was facing an epic fighter in a melee.

Let's say that all together: Epic. Fighter. In melee. That right there is an A-grade guarantee with honors with regards to opening a can of whup-@ss.

So, say you're five, maybe ten levels lower. Is that really your preferred strategy? "So I get this awesome +4 on my AC against his measly five power attacks with average +200 to hit? Gonna nail it, easy."

To quote X himself, power equals power. Story trumps rules, and that's good, but even I know what kind of hurt epic characters are capable of dealing out. Not bothering to check my math, but 100hp worth of damage in single round isn't unheard of.




:vaarsuvius: Forcecage!

And then what? Blasting him with spells until dawn? And I'm still going to remind you that there's the aforementioned black horse. The only real threat there was ever going to be V, and as seen previously, that kind of threat gets taken out of equation pretty fast. Oh, bye, Miron.


I seriously doubt that Julio is the highest level character in OOTS aside from Xykon.

Wasn't even implied, considering that all we know about any of certified epic characters is that they're 21+. In Xykons case, that's under very specific circumstances and there are reasons to expect him to be well over even that limit.

There's plenty of room to move... and the definition of low-epic is kinda sketchy, too. As I haven't seen any oots-related definition about it, I'm assuming it can mean anything between 21-24th level to 21-40th level.

[The Oni]

These are all excellent points; in light of this I'd like to formally withdraw my argument that Julio is CG.

[Sir_Leorik]

Neutrality is still freedom; your own example states that Javert is free from moral implications. What type of freedom you have depends on which part of your alignment (or both) is Neutral.

That's an interesting perspective. Javert is indeed free of both compassion and animus towards Jean Valjean. He pursues Valjean solely because Valjean broke the laws Javert is sworn to uphold. He refuses to be swayed by appeals to his compassion, until the end, and when Javert does relent, he can not live with his giving in to morality. While that's not the usual way to look at Lawful Neutral characters, it doesn't actually contradict the Alignment's description.

[orrion]

Exactly. Why get away if presented with an opportunity to kick the snot out of a A) yet another recurring villain while considerably destabilising local power structure, based on tyranny and other fun bits and B) if odds were in their favor to accomplish this?

Under what interpretation are you finding the odds in their favor at the point when Julio shows up? I find this stance especially weird given all the detail you're going into about epic fighters below.



There are some more than subtle hints, certainly. Fighting him like it was no big thing, implying some experience on the matter WHILE making sure odds really, really were on his side (opponent with a dagger, instead of Mastercrafted +5 GreatAxe of Eternal Flame and Cancer, higher manueverability, higher ground, chaos blade, fighting defensively) and besides the odds, was only guy to score a direct hit, taunting about wives, B-list villainy...

I'm not sure Julio "made sure" of anything. Of course he made it seem like no big thing. That's part of his character, and yes he has experience fighting Tarquin. Probably from the wedding crashes. If he were actually trying to undermine Tarquin's scheme then why would he have been over in Cliffport, ever? That's the wrong continent.



Being genre-savvy, he'd known he was facing an epic fighter in a melee.

Let's say that all together: Epic. Fighter. In melee. That right there is an A-grade guarantee with honors with regards to opening a can of whup-@ss.

So, say you're five, maybe ten levels lower. Is that really your preferred strategy? "So I get this awesome +4 on my AC against his measly five power attacks with average +200 to hit? Gonna nail it, easy."

On the one hand you're saying the epic fighter has a huge advantage, and earlier you were saying Julio made sure he had the advantage. Which is it? By the way, we don't know that Tarquin is a Fighter. His level is at 21+ in the Geekery thread, but his class is still unknown.



And then what? Blasting him with spells until dawn? And I'm still going to remind you that there's the aforementioned black horse. The only real threat there was ever going to be V, and as seen previously, that kind of threat gets taken out of equation pretty fast. Oh, bye, Miron.

And then nothing. If V Forcecages Tarquin during that initial encounter he's out of the fight unless someone else joins in (Z would have to Dimension Door into the cage and take Tarquin back out or something) or he has a rod of cancellation or similar. The point is that a Forcecage (or maybe even a resilient sphere) stops Tarquin from being able to solo the party.

V could also have made good use of the Hand spells, like he did on the airship, to do something like pick Tarquin up or push him around into other attacks.



Wasn't even implied, considering that all we know about any of certified epic characters is that they're 21+. In Xykons case, that's under very specific circumstances and there are reasons to expect him to be well over even that limit.

Right. So Xykon is likely the highest, followed by Tarquin at this point - he's the only other character established to be 21+ so far. By saying Julio may be higher than Tarquin, you're saying Julio would be the highest level character except Xykon.

[ti'esar]

Right. So Xykon is likely the highest, followed by Tarquin at this point - he's the only other character established to be 21+ so far. By saying Julio may be higher than Tarquin, you're saying Julio would be the highest level character except Xykon.

You're forgetting the Order of the Scribble. Rich pegged them as "low-epic" at some point, but so probably is Tarquin, who I assume is most likely level 21. I don't see what's so unlikely about Julio being somewhere similar.

[orrion]

You're forgetting the Order of the Scribble. Rich pegged them as "low-epic" at some point, but so probably is Tarquin, who I assume is most likely level 21. I don't see what's so unlikely about Julio being somewhere similar.

All the Scribbles except Serini are dead and Serini is likely dead, so I'm not forgetting them at all. I'm just not counting dead people.

"Somewhere similar" is fine. "Higher than Tarquin" is what I find hard to believe.

[Duck999]

Julio is most is most likely not wounded, as you can see him in the last panels of #943. Does he look wounded?

[CletusMusashi]

He just needs to take some time off to think of new puns.