Maho-Bujin and Monk hand to hand attacks

[Nerdguy88]

I had a question about the Maho-Bujin multiclassed with the Monk in 3.5. Specifically I was wondering about Crimson road and flurry of blows. Crimson Road is not a special "attack action". It just changes how many extra attacks you get. From one every +5 to one extra every +3. My question is would these stack and if so would anyone be able to provide What the progression would look like. I have had a heck of a time trying to figure this out.

Crimson Road (Ex): Maho-bujins make additional melee attacks in a round like a monk's unarmed attacks: Each additional attack is made at a base attack bonus 3 points lower than the previous. Thus, a maho-bujin with a base attack bonus of +8 gets three attacks per round at +8, +5, and +2, instead of two attacks at +8 and +3.

To the best of my knowledge something like a 10th level monk/ 10th level Maho Bujin would have something like this

+17/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2

[Psyren]

OA is 3.0 and so you have to convert it to 3.5 before you use it. Crimson Road's wording would probably just change to something like "levels in Maho-Bujin stack with any monk levels you possess for determining your monk abilities, such as flurry of blows." Their taint would need to be updated to the 3.5 version too, because the HoH version of taint supersedes the ones from OA and UA.

[Karnith]

OA is 3.0 and so you have to convert it to 3.5 before you use it. Crimson Road's wording would probably just change to something like "levels in Maho-Bujin stack with any monk levels you possess for determining your monk abilities, such as flurry of blows."
It'd probably be closer to the original ability were it to grant a Flurry ability usable with any weapon, but yeah. Getting extra attacks at every +3 BAB was a feature of the Monk class in 3.0 that didn't survive the 3.5 transition. The Maho-Bujin ability should be updated to reflect the 3.5 rules changes.

If you're dead-set on not updating 3.0 rules, look at the section on Monk Prestige Classes in OA pp. 33-34. That models the attack progression you'd get up to BAB +15, and it's pretty easy to extrapolate from there. Flurry of Blows would grant an additional attack at your highest BAB on top of what you get from the Crimson Road ability, so a 10th-level Monk/10th-level Maho-Bujin would make a Flurry of Blows with an attack routine of +17/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 plus whatever other modifiers you might have to the attack rolls.

[Gemini476]

The Maho-Bujin is 3.0 material. Then again, OA got a 3.5 update in Dragon and the Maho-Bujin was untouched.

[SiuiS]

The Maho-Bujin is 3.0 material. Then again, OA got a 3.5 update in Dragon and the Maho-Bujin was untouched.

That's telling.

I would say they could be used with monk then, with the Bujin getting iteratives at every +3 over +5, and flurry still adding the same number of attacks it normally does.

[Phelix-Mu]

Was there ever a formal statement that the taint rules in HoH supersede those in the OA books? I always figured they were different enough systems that one didn't strictly replace there other, but was there any text that made the necessity of conversion clear?

Personally, I liked several of the taint things from OA, especially in conjunction with the akuma.

[Karnith]

Then again, OA got a 3.5 update in Dragon and the Maho-Bujin was untouched.
The Dragon update is explicitly not a comprehensive revision of Oriental Adventures. The Shadowlands chapter of the book is not even mentioned in the article. Given that the Crimson Road ability is explicitly based on an ability that was revised out of existence in 3.5, keeping it makes about as much sense as making the class keep its DR 10/+1 in a 3.5 game.

[Phelix-Mu]

The Dragon update is explicitly not a comprehensive revision of Oriental Adventures. The Shadowlands chapter of the book is not even mentioned in the article. Given that the Crimson Road ability is explicitly based on an ability that was revised out of existence in 3.5, keeping it makes about as much sense as making the class keep its DR 10/+1.

Although, if we are talking sense, then the 3.5 changes to monk and its ilk were pretty much all uncalled for by any of the mechanical or systemic changes to the rules. They just arbitrarily decided to "simplify" some of the math or something.

Otherwise, ofc the rules on revision and what of 3.0 constitute valid 3.5 material should be applied consistently, and that Dragon article was even more slipshod than the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion booklets that were published. Again with wth weren't they more consistent with that kind of stuff/errata?

[Karnith]

Was there ever a formal statement that the taint rules in HoH supersede those in the OA books? I always figured they were different enough systems that one didn't strictly replace there other, but was there any text that made the necessity of conversion clear?
Yes. It's in a sidebar in Heroes of Horror.

The taint system in this book is derived from a similar system that originally appeared in Oriental Adventures, with some modifications introduced in Unearthed Arcana. The rules in this book are an update and revision to the earlier rules, and replace the earlier system. If you wish, you can easily use monsters, maho ("blood magic") spells, and other rules from Oriental Adventures with this taint system.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes. It's in a sidebar in Heroes of Horror.

Alas. I kind of liked some of the touches in the OA system, and while its oriental-feel might not be suitable for a more whitewashed version for HoH, I don't particularly like it when they obsolete portions of books that I already paid for.

In any case, I ran a very successful hybrid taint system when a custom Elder Evil-type BBEG was running amok in the world. Turned out much more interesting than the standard HoH Taint, though those rules are pretty decent (if with some major exploits contained in the same book).

[Psyren]

That's telling.

As Karnith pointed out, it's not, because they simply left out the entire section containing MB rather than declaring it fine as-is.


Alas. I kind of liked some of the touches in the OA system, and while its oriental-feel might not be suitable for a more whitewashed version for HoH, I don't particularly like it when they obsolete portions of books that I already paid for.

Then use the older versions :smalltongue: it's not like the men in sunglasses and suits will come to your door if you don't.

I never understood this aversion to designer updates.

[Urpriest]

Although, if we are talking sense, then the 3.5 changes to monk and its ilk were pretty much all uncalled for by any of the mechanical or systemic changes to the rules. They just arbitrarily decided to "simplify" some of the math or something.

I would hardly say that. They were part of a broad policy to make hit dice uniform, for the same reason that animals got changed to 2+Int. It's a design philosophy thing, not merely making the numbers simpler. The Hit Dice system is one of 3.5's crowning achievements, IMO.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, I remember the way the 3.0 Monk got its iteratives causing no small amount of headaches when trying to multiclass. Putting them on the same system as everyone else was a great move for the 3.5 edition.

[Nerdguy88]

Well I asked becuase reading through flurry of blows(at higher levels at least) it appears that all it does is add two extra attacks at your highest base attack bonus. If you look at the 3.5 charts for monk its clear they do. Just for arguments sake I will take a ll 20 monk becuase its simple.

BAB: +15/+10/+5

Flurry of Blows: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5

The big reason I was wondering was that soemthing like a Monk 20/Bujin 10 would have a total BAB of 25. With Crimson road and flurry their attacks would look something like this.

BAB: +25/+22/+19/+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1

Flurry of blows: +25/+25/+25/+22/+19/+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1

That to me seems like a little bit of overkill. Especially when you consider a level 20 monk does 2d10+bonuses. Granted this is a level 30 character but i mean thats a total possible of 22d10 + bonuses.

[Urpriest]

Well I asked becuase reading through flurry of blows(at higher levels at least) it appears that all it does is add two extra attacks at your highest base attack bonus. If you look at the 3.5 charts for monk its clear they do.

Why are you looking at the 3.5 tables to compare with a 3.0 class, though?

[Nerdguy88]

To be honest I was not aware there was a huge difference. I had never looked into monk in 3.0.