[3.5] Halfling Outrider and Special Mount/Animal Companion stacking?

[Arowanna]

Greetings!

TL;DR
Does Halfling Outrider really stack with both the Special Mount and Animal Companion? Is there an errata or official words from Wizards of the Coast (as stated here (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?313721-D-amp-D-Abusing-the-system&p=6994867#post6994867)) that it actually works this way? Or is this just another case of "open for interpretation, because of the vagueness of the text", or even "DM will have to set the rules for this"?

Full Post
A few days ago, one of my friends began building a mount focused character, and being intrigued by the idea of a "knight", I started playing around with the concept. I am rather new to D&D, so I started looking for mount focused PrCs and found the "Halfling Outrider" and the first thing that struck me was this:

/.../ Halfling outrider class levels stack with paladin, druid, and ranger levels for determining the characteristics of a paladin’s mount or an animal companion.
The idea of stacking the Special Mount and the Animal Companion sounded great, if I could find away to do it. And of course, after some Google searches I found the Devoted Tracker feat, kept evolving the build and in the end, I also found the "Übermount/Supermount"-exploit build.

Here's my problem, I presented my build to my friends and we immediately ended up in a conflict regarding the stacking gained from the Halfling Outrider. They interpret the rules like this:
- They clearly state OR at the end of the paragraph, meaning you've to choose if you want increase the HD of your Animal Companion or Special Mount; not both.
I on the other hand got stuck at the start of the paragraph, "Halfling outrider class levels STACK with paladin, druid, AND ranger levels", and to me, that means that it increases both the Special Mount and Animal Companion HD.

I've tried to look this up, but I've not been able to find an official statement from Wizard of the Coast regarding the vagueness of the text, or an errata for the matter. Here (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?313721-D-amp-D-Abusing-the-system&p=6994867#post6994867) they state that WotC indeed have explained that they stack, but where can I find this statement?

But how would you settle this if both parties are 100% sure that they are right..? Just ban the build?
What is your opinion on the matter, does the text clearly state that it does or doesn't stack? Why?

Off Topic
Here's the build I presented:
1. Paladin (Track) + (Alternative Class Feature: Holy Warrior for Bonus Feat)
2. Paladin
3. Paladin (Skill Focus: Handle Animal)
4. Paladin (Bonus Feat from Holy Warrior: Mounted Combat)
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster (Devoted Tracker)
7. Paladin (Alternative Class Feature: Planar Paladin for Celestial Mount)
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider (Mounted Archery)
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider (Natural Bond)
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider (Ride By Attack)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider (Spirited Charge)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

I guess this is a:
Animal Companion "Level" 20
10 (Halfling Outrider)
4 (Beastmaster)
3 (Natural Bond)
3 (Wild Plains Outrider)

Special Mount "Level" 15
10 (Halfling Outrider)
5 (Paladin Levels)

Plus all the other bonuses you gain from Paladin, Wild Plains Outrider and etc.

[Croix]

I guess this is a:
Animal Companion "Level" 20
10 (Halfling Outrider)
4 (Beastmaster)
3 (Natural Bond)
3 (Wild Plains Outrider)

Special Mount "Level" 15
10 (Halfling Outrider)
5 (Paladin Levels)

Plus all the other bonuses you gain from Paladin, Wild Plains Outrider and etc.

That would be correct. Devoted Tracker would make your Special Mount have the abilities of a 20th level Animal Companion as well as a 15th level Special Mount. Toss in Dragon Steed and enjoy Dragon HD on your Special Mount while you ride on a Gold Dragon Wyrmling.

If you're asking if your AC would be equal to a 20th level AC, and your Special Mount as a level 15th SM independently without Devoted Tracker, then yes.

-edit-

Also, while we're at it, a way to give up your turn undead attempts since they're gonna suck is with the Wary Swordknight Substitution Levels (Champions of Valor, p 51) for Level 4 is good, replacing it with Uncanny Dodge which can be useful. Plus 4+Int skill points and spot and listen as class skills is really good. The 3rd level can be good for if your DM tries to use grappling to kick your dragon riding teeth in, especially since Aura of Courage's effect can easily be replaced with a feat (Fearless), though it'll only help you.

-more edit-

I'm actually surprised they let you take Track as a Holly Warrior bonus feat since it isn't on the table. Or like me didn't see it at first. xD I'm just looking at it comparing it to my Supermount build. XD

[Arowanna]

That would be correct. Devoted Tracker would make your Special Mount have the abilities of a 20th level Animal Companion as well as a 15th level Special Mount. Toss in Dragon Steed and enjoy Dragon HD on your Special Mount while you ride on a Gold Dragon Wyrmling.

If you're asking if your AC would be equal to a 20th level AC, and your Special Mount as a level 15th SM independently without Devoted Tracker, then yes.
Hehe, I thank you for making it clear that this build functions as I thought. And yes, riding a dragon would be hilarious, but I like the stupid idea of a halfling riding a dog clashing with another army.

But my main problem, which I didn't highlight that well, is the fact that my friends still call "bull****" on the fact that the Halfling Outrider PrC adds HD to both your Special Mount and Animal Companion.

I need "proof" that it actually stacks; I've found no "legitimate" source (such as WOTC themselves or an errata) that clarifies the text/paragraph. It's just an interpretation at the moment, that they do stack (for more info, check the first post; I interpret it one way, my friends in another).


Also, while we're at it, a way to give up your turn undead attempts since they're gonna suck is with the Wary Swordknight Substitution Levels (Champions of Valor, p 51) for Level 4 is good, replacing it with Uncanny Dodge which can be useful.
I need Turn Undead for the Devoted Tracker feat, no?


I'm actually surprised they let you take Track as a Holly Warrior bonus feat since it isn't on the table. Or like me didn't see it at first. xD I'm just looking at it comparing it to my Supermount build. XD
Ops, my mistake. Fixed.

[infomatic]

Wasn't this the basis of the Supermount build WAY back, by Caelic?

Supermount! (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/967311)

There are a couple others in the Mount Handbook.

[Croix]

Hehe, I thank you for making it clear that this build functions as I thought. And yes, riding a dragon would be hilarious, but I like the stupid idea of a halfling riding a dog clashing with another army.

But my main problem, which I didn't highlight that well, is the fact that my friends still call "bull****" on the fact that the Halfling Outrider PrC adds HD to both your Special Mount and Animal Companion.

I need "proof" that it actually stacks; I've found no "legitimate" source (such as WOTC themselves or an errata) that clarifies the text/paragraph. It's just an interpretation at the moment, that they do stack (for more info, check the first post; I interpret it one way, my friends in another).

Ah, you'll have to contact wizards customer support then cause the question on it is no longer listed for all to see on their site.


I need Turn Undead for the Devoted Tracker feat, no?

Nope. Track, smite evil, and wild empathy is all you need to take Devoted Tracker.


Ops, my mistake. Fixed.

Good thing someone saw it, huh? :D But yeah, those alternate class levels are good in certain situations.

-edit-

Also, use Strongheart Halfling. They gain a Bonus Feat like Humans... forgot which bonus they gave up, but they are much better imo.

[Arowanna]

Wasn't this the basis of the Supermount build WAY back, by Caelic?

Supermount! (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/967311)

There are a couple others in the Mount Handbook.
As mentioned, I'm still rather new to D&D in general; but yes, that seems so be a very similar build, but nine years earlier. Thanks for the link though, I'll skim through it.


Ah, you'll have to contact wizards customer support then cause the question on it is no longer listed for all to see on their site.
Well damn. I guess I'll do that then.


Nope. Track, smite evil, and wild empathy is all you need to take Devoted Tracker.
Oh, that's right.


Good thing someone saw it, huh? :D But yeah, those alternate class levels are good in certain situations.
Yepp, thanks again.


Also, use Strongheart Halfling. They gain a Bonus Feat like Humans... forgot which bonus they gave up, but they are much better imo.
Yes, the Strongheart Halfling is a better choice, much better. But my group usually ban most races from Faerûn and Eberron, and they already hate the idea of this "min-maxed" build, so I won't even try to bring in a slightly overpowered race as well.

[Croix]

Well damn. I guess I'll do that then.

Just be warned that it may take a while.


Oh, that's right.

Yup, so take them Wary Swordknight substitution levels. Best part is, you get to choose which ones you want to take, so you could just say you're only substituting level 4 and get the 4+Int and Listen and Spot as class skills for your Paladin levels and give up nothing detrimental. Or take both and be considered the toughest Halfling ever~


Yepp, thanks again.

No problem. xD


Yes, the Strongheart Halfling is a better choice, much better. But my group usually ban most races from Faerûn and Eberron, and they already hate the idea of this "min-maxed" build, so I won't even try to bring in a slightly overpowered race as well.

Not quite as good as Human because Human's are Medium to start, and their bonus skill points can go to anything, and it accumulates higher than the skill bonuses from being a halfling or other race with racial skill bonuses, plus Any as a favored class makes them really good for multiclass builds. But Strongheart is definitely stronger than Halfling. :smalltongue: I just rationalize that if it isn't strictly a Greyhawk Setting, if Humans are allowed, the other races aren't too bad in comparison.

[Chronos]

Not quite as good as Human because Human's are Medium to start...
That's why strongheart halfling is better than human. The only drawback to small size compared to medium is that your weapons do one point less damage on average, and you're worse at grappling. In return, you get better AC, attack rolls, and hide checks, and you can ride mounts that fit indoors: That's a more than fair trade.