Broken Races

[StrangeLooper]

There are broken classes (StP Erudite, Psionic Artificer, Tainted Scholar and such) and broken templates(Divine Minion, Ghost Savage Progression, Symbiotic etc.) but the only really broken race I've found is phaerimm with their double sorcerer progression. Did WotC actually create a reasonably fair and balance dynamic with core races like humans remaining on top? What other really broken races are out their (they don't have to be good at everything, even one really cheap build they can fit into is good)?

[zephyrkinetic]

I find Derro to be a little broken, but I haven't ever cared much for the extraplanar stuff, so I don't know about all that. Svirfneblins can be little bastards, too.

What's this about Humans remaining on top, though? Why should that define fairness?

[(Un)Inspired]

Humans are broken. It's not good when one race is the best choice for every single class. (This precludes LA buy off, elven chaos shuffling etc. etc.)

[StrangeLooper]

Humans tend to be better then other races but aren't game breaking. Somebody playing an optimized hulking hurler can beat anything as long as it goes first as its enemy isn't immune to large flying rocks. Humans can give a build a leg up but aren't really nearly as broken as some classes and templates.

[Psyren]

Overpowered != Broken

Also, while humans remain a top choice for many classes in PF, they are not hands down the best anymore.

[nedz]

Kobolds — well not by themselves, but there are certainly some cheesy options

Illuminium — early entry tricks, thuerges especially

Tauric — lets ignore some of our RHD and LA shall we

[Arowanna]

I personally find Aasimar with the "Lesser Planetouched" template from "Player's Guide to Faerûn" very strange. There's absolutely no draw back playing a Lesser Aasimar.

But are they broken? No, but slightly unbalanced compared to most other LA0 races? I'd say yes.

[HammeredWharf]

Illumnians can be pretty broken. Str/Dex-based casting? Free Divine Metamagic: Everything? Yes, please.

[Irk]

Shaedling, MMV

[eggynack]

Anthropomorphic bat, definitely. +6 wisdom is just completely insane compared to the stat bonuses that +0 LA usually provides, and -4 strength and -2 charisma only equal the bonus instead of being greater than it. You also get a fly speed, which is additionally ridiculous. It's even better when you combine anthropomorphic bat with dragonborn, making the stat changes +6 wisdom, +2 constitution, -4 strength, -2 dexterity, -2 charisma, losing only darkvision, and getting a bunch of stuff that's better than darkvision by a mile. It's good on clerics, and utterly ridiculous on druids. Strongheart halflings are also awesome, though more overpowered than broken.

[(Un)Inspired]

Oh wait, I want to second Anthro bat. Whoever ok'd that being published needs a good sounds drubbing with a DMG. How on earth can something have +6 wis and not have a crippling LA? No other ability penalties can really justify such a boost to a casters primary stat.

Edit: I usually just look at the anthropomorphic section of SS because I like to imagine using the giant crocodile to make Leatherhead. I forget that some of those animals are actually ridiculously unbalanced.

[Fax Celestis]

Shaedling, MMV

Only broken if you use a very liberal reading with their item creation ability.

[Irk]

Only broken if you use a very liberal reading with their item creation ability.

Oh, most definitely, otherwise it is pretty terrible.

[Zanos]

I personally find Aasimar with the "Lesser Planetouched" template from "Player's Guide to Faerûn" very strange. There's absolutely no draw back playing a Lesser Aasimar.

But are they broken? No, but slightly unbalanced compared to most other LA0 races? I'd say yes.
You lose the weapon proficiency and outsider type, which makes you vulnerable to spells that target both humanoids and outsiders.

Even a full Aasimar isn't worth +1 LA if we're using humans as the baseline.

Some people might consider Anthropomorphic Bhaleen Whale(Savage Species) broken. 3 RHD, no LA. +8 STR +4 DEX +4 CON +4 WIS. +9 NA. Large Size. 30 foot speed. RHD are monstrous humanoid, so Full Bab, Good Reflex and Will, 60 foot darkvision.

Probably too good.

[Fax Celestis]

Still don't understand why aasimar et al is a race, not a template. The existence of half-celestial, fiendish, etc., indicates that more than humans breed with outsiders, but aasimar as race instead of template indicates that only humans keep it in their bloodline in any real amount after a generation, which makes absolutely no sense.

[Phelix-Mu]

Still don't understand why aasimar et al is a race, not a template. The existence of half-celestial, fiendish, etc., indicates that more than humans breed with outsiders, but aasimar as race instead of template indicates that only humans keep it in their bloodline in any real amount after a generation, which makes absolutely no sense.

I clearly need to reread the aasimar fluff. Does it really say that aasimar are only born to humans? I always saw them as just genetic throwbacks, whatever race they are born to. Clearly, among some races they would get on more or less well based on how much their appearance departed from that of their family and communities.

That said, maybe I am totally misremembering aasimar and conflating them with spellscales (was in a long campaign in which spellscales featured prominently, so this is entirely plausible).

[Fax Celestis]

I clearly need to reread the aasimar fluff. Does it really say that aasimar are only born to humans? I always saw them as just genetic throwbacks, whatever race they are born to. Clearly, among some races they would get on more or less well based on how much their appearance departed from that of their family and communities.

That said, maybe I am totally misremembering aasimar and conflating them with spellscales (was in a long campaign in which spellscales featured prominently, so this is entirely plausible).

If that is the case, why do they all appear as slightly angelic humans? There are no small aasimar, nor any large or powerfully built (so gnomes, halflings, dwarves, goblins, goliaths, half-orcs...all out). An argument could be made that aasimar could be elf-descended, but they inherit no elf traits (proficiencies and tranceing being the most noticeably absent). Drow are out too.

[Phelix-Mu]

Which brings up another interesting question. Why do all these celestials resemble humans? With the notable exception of eladrin (who look like the most human-looking of the non-humans), celestials are generally human shaped (particularly angels). I assumed that the aasimar coolness is just a dominant genetic trait that overrides whatever the other parental bloodline influences are.

Not a good explanation, but I always found it more appropriate that people known to feel out of place among their kin also occasionally find it pretty much impossible to not look out of place among their kin (as a normal aasimar born to halflings, let's say).

I suppose my general view was just this way because I find that aasimar should be regarded with the same suspicion as tieflings, but none of my feelings or ideas really explain what seems to have been going on with the concept.

[Gemini476]

Broken races? I'll second the Anthropomorphic Bat, Human, and Anthopomorphic Baleen Whale, but add the Dvati, pre-update Greensnake Naga, and (for having such a high optimization ceiling) Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Dvati just plain don't work as written without DM adjucation as to how many actions each twin gets, before Dragon updated OA to 3.5 the Naga got +2Str +4Dex +4 Con +2 Int +2 Wis and various small abilities for +1 LA (the update made that +2Str +4Dex. Nevermind that 8 9 10 11 12 13 is nowhere near the Elite Array. Oh Dragon, you're so silly.).

Dragonwrought Kobolds are on the list because being a Dragon gets you access to multiple Dragon-exclusive things: ignoring the prerequisites for things that have Dragonblood as a prerequisite and qualifying for [Epic] feats if Old or older are the more definite advantages, and if you subscribe to the thought that they are True Dragons then they also have access to True Dragon specific things like Sovereign Archetypes, True Dragon-specific prestige classes , Dragon Psychoses, and various other feats and templates.

Oh, and because the core race was so underpowered in the MM they got heaps and heaps of small buffs spread about the place. Natural weapons, a feat for +1 Effective Sorcerer Level, and some martial proficiencies are some of them. They're not really broken, but they're way better than they used to be.

Dragonborn is a race (somehow) despite working as a template, so I'll put it here. LA+0 for +2 Con -2 Dex and flight can be very good when combined with races that don't have many inborn abilities, like Mongrelfolk or Anthropomorphic Bats or Incarnate Construct Dustform anything.


If you like Pathfinder, then the Drow Noble (effectively LA+1 due to CR=Class Level) is horribly, horribly overpowered as a monster race. Pathfinder has a bunch of overpowered monster races, actually, since anything with a caster level higher than its CR is just gold.
Don't even get started on Aasimar.

[Immabozo]

I wouldn't say broken, but very strong. Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. 0 LA, 3 RHD, +6 str, +4 dex, +4 con, +4 int, +6 wis, +4 cha, 9 NA, size large.

That RHD gives you a 3/4 BAB, hit points, saves and feats. Just strictly better than LA, unless you have LA buy off.

I want to make an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale with the Willing Deformity tall and aberrant blood reach feats!

[Maginomicon]

Cyclopeans, since they're eligible for the Primordial Giant template. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301651)

To use a more literal definition of "broken" though, I ban Dvati in my games because they can't be adjudicated.

[nedz]

Still don't understand why aasimar et al is a race, not a template. The existence of half-celestial, fiendish, etc., indicates that more than humans breed with outsiders, but aasimar as race instead of template indicates that only humans keep it in their bloodline in any real amount after a generation, which makes absolutely no sense.

You can apply the same argument for Feytouched (also size medium) and yet you can apply the Half celestial (and Half fey) templates to small creatures.
Maybe small Half Celestials have bigger children, who knows ?

[Metahuman1]

Illumnians can ... Free Divine Metamagic: Everything? Yes, please.

How does that work?

[StrangeLooper]

After looking around a bit I found the Incarnate Construct Maug. They seem pretty broken as they get advantages similar to the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale and can qualify for Primordial Giant.

[Fax Celestis]

You can apply the same argument for Feytouched (also size medium) and yet you can apply the Half celestial (and Half fey) templates to small creatures.
Maybe small Half Celestials have bigger children, who knows ?

Yeah. Honestly $Heritage races are pretty stupid, you ask me, and should be templates.

Why can't I have a half-giant halfling? Or a tiefling dwarf? An elan elf? A feytouched lizardfolk?

[Werephilosopher]

Thri-Kreen. Four arms and +30 to Jump checks = perfect race for a Tiger Claw swordsage.

[Metahuman1]

Thri-Kreen. Four arms and +30 to Jump checks = perfect race for a Tiger Claw swordsage.

Um, don't they have racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment for that privilege?

[nedz]

How does that work?

Naenhoon generally, but also Naenaesh (Still spell)

[Metahuman1]

Naenhoon generally, but also Naenaesh (Still spell)

Forgive me I'm not overly familiar with the race in question, these are like a racial trait they pick up that let's them get free metamagic/turn undead?

[Amphetryon]

Sarrukh, for Manipulate Form.

[Pesimismrocks]

Dvati. Literally play as two characters. Cool in theory, difficult to balance in practice and their mechanics were handled poorly, although that can be said of many(not all) things in dragon compendium

[Karnith]

Forgive me I'm not overly familiar with the race in question, these are like a racial trait they pick up that let's them get free metamagic/turn undead?
Yes. Illumians get to pick two sigils as part of their racial traits, each combination of which produces certain effects. The effect of having the Naen and Hoon sigils is to give you a 2/day effect similar to Divine Metamagic. Having the Naen and Aesh sigils gives you the ability to get Silent Spell for free on certain spells by leaving spell slots open.

[Fax Celestis]

Um, don't they have racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment for that privilege?

2 monstrous humanoid RHD (which aren't that bad, actually) and LA+1 for nonpsionic, +2 for XPH psionic, +3 for MMIII psionic (which has more often activatable abilities).

[nedz]

Yes. Illumians get to pick two sigils as part of their racial traits, each combination of which produces certain effects. The effect of having the Naen and Hoon sigils is to give you a 2/day effect similar to Divine Metamagic. Having the Naen and Aesh sigils gives you the ability to get Silent Spell for free on certain spells by leaving spell slots open.

There's also the Improve Sigil feat. Whilst most of these are innocuous the Improve Krau Sigil allows you to heighten two spells — Hello Mystic Theurge.

[ddude987]

I saw a lot of seconds, thirds, etc for how anthro bat is broken. Have you actually seen it in use? I've played an anthro bat druid, and while extremely powerful, it didn't break the game any more than a regular druid does.

[lsfreak]

Um, don't they have racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment for that privilege?

They do, but +2LA for the XPH version is able to be bought off, and their 2 racial hit dice provide full BAB and 5 skill points a level. It nets you +2Dex +4Str +3 natural armor and the ability to wield four weapons at once, and as a swordsage you also benefit from +2 Wisdom (wee more armor) and it counts as your first initiator level. I mean, you probably don't want to play one from first level, but sixth level when you've bought off your first LA? Sure. RHD aren't nearly as bad when you're playing a melee class since they still give you stuff.

[Metahuman1]

There's also the Improve Sigil feat. Whilst most of these are innocuous the Improve Krau Sigil allows you to heighten two spells — Hello Mystic Theurge.

Honestly, I'm more interested in whether they can be used to go full DMM: Persist on a driven spell chassie. Cause I've got an idea for a character that get's one level each in Ur-priest and PrC paladin before going Ruby Knight Vindicator, and that would be amazing for this.

[eggynack]

I saw a lot of seconds, thirds, etc for how anthro bat is broken. Have you actually seen it in use? I've played an anthro bat druid, and while extremely powerful, it didn't break the game any more than a regular druid does.
It's just a lot more than what most races grant. You're rarely going to get too broken with a race. Also, you get fangshields druid substitution levels, and those're pretty universally good. It's not going to make druids be all that altered on the game breaking spectrum, but it's far out of scale with other options in a lot of ways, and that's enough, I think.

[EugeneVoid]

Dvati Dragonborn

[lsfreak]

I'll add marrulurk, from Sandstorm. Small size, three racial hit dice, +LA. But LA can be bought off, and let's compare 3 hit dice worth of marrulurk with 3 hit dice worth of rogue:
d8 instead of d6 hit dice, as they're monstrous humanoids
Both have 2d6 sneak attack
EDIT: Full BAB instead of partial, not bad
2 skill points a level instead of 8, again monstrous humanoids
Death attack, but based off racial hit dice so meh
+4 to Listen, Hide, and Move Silently
Fire Resist 5
Natural Armor 2
Okay, that right there is pretty much on par with rogue. Decent, maybe worth the 1LA you can buy off.
Except that they get PBS and Rapid Shot as bonus feats. Okay that might be a bit mu-
They have +2Str +6Dex +4Con +6Wis +4Cha. WHAT.

[nedz]

Honestly, I'm more interested in weather they can be used to go full DMM: Persist on a driven spell chassie. Cause I've got an idea for a character that get's one level each in Ur-priest and PrC paladin before going Ruby Knight Vindicator, and that would be amazing for this.

So you don't like the idea of Wizard 1 / Cleric 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 ?
(Or the other way around)

Naenhoon works just like DMM, except that it's

1 TU usage cheaper
Not tied to a specific Metamagic feat — just one that you know
2/day

[Metahuman1]

So you don't like the idea of Wizard 1 / Cleric 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 ?
(Or the other way around)

Naenhoon works just like DMM, except that it's

1 TU usage cheaper
Not tied to a specific Metamagic feat — just one that you know
2/day


I like it and might use it, but I'm just at the moment working on a back up character, and it would help the build I had in mind if there was a way to get around that 2/day limit for the other.

[Rubik]

Honestly, I'm more interested in weatherWhat does weather have to do with anything?

[Metahuman1]

What does weather have to do with anything?

Sorry, my bad.

[Ruethgar]

Anthropomorphic Ravens are LA +0, get full flight and a net positive ability modifier(-6 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Wisdom). You don't get the blind sense of the bat but you can also emulate more characters and races than Manbat. Skeksis, Halosians, Arakoa or any of the various bird people already present in D&D from harpies to kiwi.

Deep Imaskari can be pretty nice as force missile magi, mega metamagic their magic missile and then repeat it next turn. Not broken, but being able to cast an extra spell slot of your highest metamagicable level is nothing to sneeze at.

As has been said before, kobolds have a lot of broken options.

Humans, if using the Quintessential Human, are utterly broken with Chaos Shuffle. Just make an Elf Friend Farm Boy and throw in Displaced One so you can snag MSRD stuff too, 10 feats from being level 1.

[nedz]

I like it and might use it, but I'm just at the moment working on a back up character, and it would help the build I had in mind if there was a way to get around that 2/day limit for the other.

No way around that limit I'm afraid; which is why it's weaker than DMM: because you can quite easily bump your turning pool(s). It is available from level 1, and can always be used to Persist/Quicken/etc. 2 more spells, so it's not a wash.

[Kennisiou]

Humans, Gray Elf or fire elf Necropolitans, and a number of others are all pretty broken. Hadozee Swordsages and swashbucklers can both be pretty freaking strong if Chaos Shuffle is allowed, since they get a climb speed and +2 dex -2 Cha with dodge as a bonus feat (although never as good as shuffling a gray elf or fire elf necropolitan).

[StrangeLooper]

Humans, if using the Quintessential Human, are utterly broken with Chaos Shuffle. Just make an Elf Friend Farm Boy and throw in Displaced One so you can snag MSRD stuff too, 10 feats from being level 1.

What and where is Displaced One?

[Gavinfoxx]

LA+0 Lesser Fey'ri.

[nedz]

Has anyone mentioned Unseelie Fey and Water Orc yet ?
Unseelie Fey gives you lots of goodies, but there is no mention of LA.
Water Orc is just a big strength bump.

[Immabozo]

Water Orc is just a big strength bump.

Anthropomorphic elephants have a huge str bonus, but their LA and RHD makes me cry.

[Ruethgar]

What and where is Displaced One?

Quintessential Human, it is one of the backgrounds you can pick to be from our world thrown into D&D, MSRD is the easiest way to portray this, though the mechanics as written are more DM fiat than anything. It also doesn't say you can't have multiple backgrounds, but it also says they are not intended to be for crunch more than flavor.

A Displaced(+1 vs spells or +2 vs illusion, -1 Con), Rural(Small Firearms Proficiency), Farm Boy(Agricultural Weapon Proficiency, -4 sense motive, -4 vs enchantments, +1 Con, +1 Str), Elf Friend(4 racial elf feats, depressed if away from elves for long so get one as a cohort) is hard to pull together, but he could have been a teen when he was torn from his farm in the "real" world(aliens) and the elves took him in for the remainder of time to adulthood after he spent some of his little shotgun ammo gravely wounding a green dragon for them or some other dumb luck task upon entering the world as is often the trope.

[Gavinfoxx]

What and where is Displaced One?


Quintessential Human

Ahhh, bad 3rd party, noted by the +1's and -1's to stats...

[OldTrees1]

LA+0 Lesser Fey'ri.

By extension: All the lesser planetouched that were not intended by the authors of the lesser planetouched rule.




Half Elf: Broken in the weak direction (with some rare exceptions)

[Snowbluff]

Sarrukh, for Manipulate Form.

I guess you can count Yuan Ti Tainted Ones by extension. They can polymorph themselves into Sarrukh, and they can get manipulate form with a feat after that. Even without that, they still can polymorph themselves into anything snake-like. Start at level 2 by innocuously slithering as a tiny viper, but move onto naga hydra at higher levels.

[(Un)Inspired]

Half Elf: Broken in the weak direction (with some rare exceptions)

So true. They're normally so useless but mark of storms can make them so cool.

[evilserran]

I think barbarian Goliaths can be a be bit broken. work your way into bear warrior, become a brown bear you are now large counting as being huge. With a single cast of enlarge person/animal debending on your dms rule, your bear can go huge, counting as gargantuan, meanint collossal monsters probably can't grapple you, nor can anything smaller then you. Add in levels of warshaper, Your strength without any items or points from levelling upis probably around 44 when you rage, with items, coompletely minmaxed you would be around 60 str. Conjoin that with the just roll with it feat you can pump your dr by level 20 to nearly 20/-. You can now threaten nearly the entire field, grapple anything or anyone you want, and your only weakness like most martials, is magic.

edited for highlights

[OldTrees1]

I think barbarian Goliaths can be a be bit broken. work your way into bear warrior, become a brown bear you are now large counting as being huge. With a single cast of enlarge person/animal debending on your dms rule, your bear can go huge, counting as gargantuan, meanint collossal monsters probably can't grapple you, nor can anything smaller then you. Your strength without any items or points from levelling upis probably around 44 when you rage, with items, coompletely minmaxed you would be around 60 str. Conjoin that with the just roll with it feat you can pump your dr by level 20 to nearly 20/-. You can now threaten nearly the entire field, grapple anything or anyone you want, and your only weakness like most martials, is magic.

Some corrections/clairifications:
1) Goliath's are not Large size. Powerful build only allows wielding larger weapons and getting a +4 size modifier on things like Trip.
2) Goliath Barbarians (using the Racial Substitution) do become Large while Raging. This does not stack with Bear Form since both set your size at Large rather than increase your size by 1 category.
3) Enlarge person does affect Bear Form (if cast after the form is assumed since you retain your humanoid type). So now the Goliath is Huge size. So the Goliath cannot reach the whole field (only 15-30ft depending on reach weapon or not)
4) A Goliath Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 10 would indeed get +26 Str while in both Mountain Rage and Bear Form. However this would leave the Golaith with at most (18 +4 levels +4 racial +6 rage +20 bear form +6 enhancement = 58 Str)
5) DR 20/- requires taking Roll With It 10 times. Even with 2 Flaws a Goliath Barbarian 10/Bear Warrior 10 only has 8 feats. Furthermore DR 20/- is not effective at 20th level except against two-weapon opponents. Notice the primary attack of the Tarrasque is 4d8+17(average 37) and it is considered weak for its CR. A 20th level Rogue would be dealing weapon+10d6 (more than 35 damage) per attack.
6) Finally Grapple. The Tarrasque is CR 20 Colossal and has a Str of 45. This is a Grapple modifier of +33 (+17 Str +16 Size). The Goliath has a Grapple modifier of +36 (+24 Str +12 Size). Notice the Goliath is barely ahead.

[nephtis]

Mmmh, I always considered Catfolk overpowered.

+4 Dexterity, +2 Charisma with no negatives on other stats, a base land speed of 40 and a +1 natural armor bonus for a +1 LA? Count me in!

That Hexblade/Rogue was *the* most optimzed build I ever created. Fun but choosing that race was meta-gaming and I had to write a 3 page back-story to get that character to Cormyr ;p

[Sploggle1]

I see all the non PHB Races as broken since originally before wizards took over they were not playable races. The worst ones being vampires.

(That is if you are talking about playable races or monster Races?)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Why can't I have a half-giant halfling?

That poor Halfling! or I suppose really uimpressed giantess.

While your point is generally valid and your other examples follow; Half-Giant is a magically created race heavily influenced by the 2nd ed Dark Sun setting, see referances to Sorceror-Kings in the desert in their XPH description. We could easily assume that since it takes magic to make a human/giant that giants are normally a genetically closed race and can only be crossed with magical breed with anything races (yes moreso that humans) that have templates.

[WrathMage]

I see all the non PHB Races as broken since originally before wizards took over they were not playable races. The worst ones being vampires.

(That is if you are talking about playable races or monster Races?)

Really? See I know there are mad, broken thinks outside the PHB, but I wouldn't sweep them all up as broken... Unless this should have been in blue?

[Rubik]

That poor Halfling! or I suppose really unimpressed giantess.They're not called "halflings" for a reason.

Gnomes, on the other hand, would have no problems. There's a reason why their race is colloquially known as "living tripods," after all.

[Psyren]

Why can't I have a half-giant halfling?

You mean a human? :smalltongue:

(Hell, if it's a strongheart halfling you'd even get the feat.)

[Snowbluff]

You mean a human? :smalltongue:

(Hell, if it's a strongheart halfling you'd even get the feat.)

That's a really good point! XD

[evilserran]

Some corrections/clairifications:
1) Goliath's are not Large size. Powerful build only allows wielding larger weapons and getting a +4 size modifier on things like Trip. I didnt say they were large, i said "considered" in regards to the things that matter on build
2) Goliath Barbarians (using the Racial Substitution) do become Large while Raging. This does not stack with Bear Form since both set your size at Large rather than increase your size by 1 category. Bear form states very clearly it stacks with spells, abilities, etc, so yes, yes it does.
3) Enlarge person does affect Bear Form (if cast after the form is assumed since you retain your humanoid type). So now the Goliath is Huge size. So the Goliath cannot reach the whole field (only 15-30ft depending on reach weapon or not) he reaches 15 foot to left, covers 10 foot area and 15 foot to right, thats a 40foot area of danger, add 4 more for morphic reach more then enough to call it "the whole field, since he is for killing melee, again, as stated
4) A Goliath Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 10 would indeed get +26 Str while in both Mountain Rage and Bear Form. However this would leave the Golaith with at most (18 +4 levels +4 racial +6 rage +20 bear form +6 enhancement = 58 Str) Why did you skip over warshaper as mentioned? +4/str con, where's his tomes? and why start at 18 strength score when with racials could be at 20?
5) DR 20/- requires taking Roll With It 10 times. Even with 2 Flaws a Goliath Barbarian 10/Bear Warrior 10 only has 8 feats. Furthermore DR 20/- is not effective at 20th level except against two-weapon opponents. Notice the primary attack of the Tarrasque is 4d8+17(average 37) and it is considered weak for its CR. A 20th level Rogue would be dealing weapon+10d6 (more than 35 damage) per attack. Morphic immunity ignores rogue damage, roll with it staclks with all dr such as from adamantine, so yes i exaggerated a little sue me, for once you are somewhat correct, course ditch some levels of bear warrior or barb for fighter, i wasn't building the whole thing for you.
6) Finally Grapple. The Tarrasque is CR 20 Colossal and has a Str of 45. This is a Grapple modifier of +33 (+17 Str +16 Size). The Goliath has a Grapple modifier of +36 (+24 Str +12 Size). Notice the Goliath is barely ahead. Again you ignored the str mod from warshaper thats another +2

Instead of trying to debunk my post, why don't you actually read it correctly, and stop skipping over the parts you dont want to include? To full min max this character could easily hit a 68 str check and grapple the tarrasque on a 5. But i am not going to build it for you.

[Immabozo]

Bear form states very clearly it stacks with spells, abilities, etc, so yes, yes it does.

Instead of trying to debunk my post, why don't you actually read it correctly, and stop skipping over the parts you dont want to include? To full min max this character could easily hit a 68 str check and grapple the tarrasque on a 5. But i am not going to build it for you.

You are right. They stack. But being set to large twice, still leaves you at large. Not huge.


I didnt say they were large, i said "considered" in regards to the things that matter on build

See above. You are missing at least one size category


he reaches 15 foot to left, covers 10 foot area and 15 foot to right, thats a 40foot area of danger, add 4 more for morphic reach more then enough to call it "the whole field, since he is for killing melee, again, as stated

Your arbitrary decision of how big the "whole battlefield" is is not a reason for you to be so bitter to a fellow playgrounder. In fact, odds are that the battlefield is much larger and your assumption is wrong in most cases

and be more polite to fellow posters. I see you are new, but you dont need to be rude.

[OldTrees1]

Instead of trying to debunk my post, why don't you actually read it correctly, and stop skipping over the parts you dont want to include? To full min max this character could easily hit a 68 str check and grapple the tarrasque on a 5. But i am not going to build it for you.

1) I did miss the word "Warshaper". You might wish to note that you edited it in after I quoted you.

2) If Mountain Rage makes you Large size and Bear Form makes to the size of the Bear (Large) then they do not make you Huge since both specify you become Large size.

3) I would like to note that the build you are describing gets a mere +6Str, & net+7Grapple from the race. The rest came from the build and items.

So no, your beef is with the feat Roll With it, and the classes Bear Warrior and Warshaper.

[Sploggle1]

When I say the ones outside of the PHB I don't mean they are all broken. Like I said the only one i called out was the vampire. Their are a good amount that are broken though.

[(Un)Inspired]

That poor Halfling! or I suppose really uimpressed giantess.


Excuse me but I've been assured many times that it's not the size of the halfling that counts. It's how you use the life-shaping magic to create cross bred species.

[Immabozo]

When I say the ones outside of the PHB I don't mean they are all broken. Like I said the only one i called out was the vampire. Their are a good amount that are broken though.

Vampires broken as in like how Godzilla broke Japan, right? Because they suck big hairy Godzilla balls, as written.

[Gemini476]

Vampires broken as in like how Godzilla broke Japan, right? Because they suck big hairy Godzilla balls, as written.

Except for Vampire Lords. They're pretty sweet, and also the most unkillable thing I can think of. Even the Tarrasque has a listed way of killing it; the Vampire Lord has a complicated way to stop him from reviving, but then whoops someone pricks their finger over the corpse and Dracula is back, baby.

But yeah, that LA is killer. What is it again, +8? Yeah, wait with getting that template until you don't feel like levelling any more.

[StrangeLooper]

Except for Vampire Lords. They're pretty sweet, and also the most unkillable thing I can think of. Even the Tarrasque has a listed way of killing it; the Vampire Lord has a complicated way to stop him from reviving, but then whoops someone pricks their finger over the corpse and Dracula is back, baby.

But yeah, that LA is killer. What is it again, +8? Yeah, wait with getting that template until you don't feel like levelling any more.

The Curst Template provide near immortality for LA +3, only totally destroying their body kills them, although if they would drop below zero hp they become paralyzed for a day or more. Also, their technically not undead and getting a further undead template on top of them (or an the right race) can make them immune to being paralyzed. I once played a character like this in a pvp match but they ended up failing as the opponent just beat them unconscious with nonlethal damage( although I realized later that I could use an undead template on top of the curst template which gives the needed immunity and immunity to nonlethal damage).

[evilserran]

[QUOTE=OldTrees1;16942934]1) I did miss the word "Warshaper". You might wish to note that you highlighted edited it in after I quoted you.

2) If Mountain Rage makes you Large size and Bear Form makes to the size of the Bear (Large) then they do not make you Huge since both specify you become Large size. I'm not mentioning mountain rage, you are. I am mentioning bear form = large, enlarge person = huge powerful build considers you gargantuan and now you can grapple COLLOSAL.

3) I would like to note that the build you are describing gets a mere +6Str, & net+7Grapple from the race. The rest came from the build and items. The op asked for races "even if only for one build" or at least thats how i read it, this same build with nearly any other race, doesnt get the same beefiness as this build is completely symbiotic with the goliath.

[StrangeLooper]

[QUOTE=OldTrees1;16942934]1) I did miss the word "Warshaper". You might wish to note that you highlighted edited it in after I quoted you.

2) If Mountain Rage makes you Large size and Bear Form makes to the size of the Bear (Large) then they do not make you Huge since both specify you become Large size. I'm not mentioning mountain rage, you are. I am mentioning bear form = large, enlarge person = huge powerful build considers you gargantuan and now you can grapple COLLOSAL.

3) I would like to note that the build you are describing gets a mere +6Str, & net+7Grapple from the race. The rest came from the build and items. The op asked for races "even if only for one build" or at least thats how i read it, this same build with nearly any other race, doesnt get the same beefiness as this build is completely symbiotic with the goliath.

Having a race work with only one good build is fine but the race should contribute significantly. Overall I suppose your build works as long as it is difficult to attain the same grappling ability without the race you used.

[evilserran]

[QUOTE=evilserran;16947951]

Having a race work with only one good build is fine but the race should contribute significantly. Overall I suppose your build works as long as it is difficult to attain the same grappling ability without the race you used.

Without the goliath, no other race with this build could grapple colossal, which is, in my opinion a big deal, as it takes the majority of their attacks away from the rest of the group allowing them to open up on the big monster with little repercussions. The healer can heal the grappler while he grapples, and attempts to pin making creature unable to do ANYTHING but try to escape.(short of movement free teleportation spells) Normally grappling is not considered optimal, but if you could take all the turns away from the tarrasque it is hardly so menacing.

[Rebel7284]

You guys keep talking about Enlarge Person on a Goliath...

Monstrous Humanoid: As monstrous humanoids, goliaths are proficient with all simple weapons, but they have no proficiency with any armor or shield.

[Meowmasterish]

Kobolds are super broken if you take the Dragonwrought feat. It makes you count as a true dragon. As a true dragon, you can apply several templates to your self. These can include Spellhoarding (makes a sorcerer cast as a wizard) and Loredrake (increases caster lvl by 2). Also as a true dragon, you take no physical penalties as you age, so you can make yourself 120 years old and get a +3 to all mental stats.

[Necroticplague]

[QUOTE=StrangeLooper;16948035]

Without the goliath, no other race with this build could grapple colossal, which is, in my opinion a big deal, as it takes the majority of their attacks away from the rest of the group allowing them to open up on the big monster with little repercussions. The healer can heal the grappler while he grapples, and attempts to pin making creature unable to do ANYTHING but try to escape.(short of movement free teleportation spells) Normally grappling is not considered optimal, but if you could take all the turns away from the tarrasque it is hardly so menacing.

Being a size bigger is only a +4 to grapple. A human can emulate this through using their bonus feat to pick up improved grapple.plus, just being humanoid gives humans access to an extra +4 from aberrant feats. Of course, stregnth is less, but the human can take the lolth-touched template to have the same la, same str, and a bit better grapple.

[Rubik]

Kobolds are super broken if you take the Dragonwrought feat. It makes you count as a true dragon. As a true dragon, you can apply several templates to your self. These can include Spellhoarding (makes a sorcerer cast as a wizard) and Loredrake (increases caster lvl by 2). Also as a true dragon, you take no physical penalties as you age, so you can make yourself 120 years old and get a +3 to all mental stats.The brokenness is in potentia. Given how weak a kobold's stats are, they rather need the boosts, and as long as the epic feats aren't used and you don't start digging for the seriously broken cheese, they're fine.

Basically, Dragonwrought kobolds aren't broken. Spellhoarding Loredrake Dragonwrought kobolds are broken.

[Immabozo]

[QUOTE=OldTrees1;16942934]1) I did miss the word "Warshaper". You might wish to note that you highlighted edited it in after I quoted you.

2) If Mountain Rage makes you Large size and Bear Form makes to the size of the Bear (Large) then they do not make you Huge since both specify you become Large size. I'm not mentioning mountain rage, you are. I am mentioning bear form = large, enlarge person = huge powerful build considers you gargantuan and now you can grapple COLLOSAL.

3) I would like to note that the build you are describing gets a mere +6Str, & net+7Grapple from the race. The rest came from the build and items. The op asked for races "even if only for one build" or at least thats how i read it, this same build with nearly any other race, doesnt get the same beefiness as this build is completely symbiotic with the goliath.

I think the bigger penalty, you cannot grapple small opponents, that's more frequent than Colossal opponents and you can be grappled by up to 4 large giants.

[OldTrees1]

1) I did miss the word "Warshaper". You might wish to note that you highlighted edited it in after I quoted you.

1) Um. You are incorrect. I hit the quote button. In my post you will see your post in its original state. You then edited in Warshaper. Later you read my post and returned to your post for a second edit in which you highlighted your first edit. Then you started accusing me of misreading what was not in the post I quoted at the time I quoted the post.

2) Forgive me for assuming you were going to use Mountain Rage. Without it your Str drops 2. Also forgive me for assuming you were going to use Mountain rage to reach Large size.

3) +7grapple from race is hardly OP even in the debatably OP build. For 1 less LA you can get +4 Str or +4 Grapple.

[Fax Celestis]

You guys keep talking about Enlarge Person on a Goliath...

Monstrous Humanoid: As monstrous humanoids, goliaths are proficient with all simple weapons, but they have no proficiency with any armor or shield.
Yup. Was going to say the same thing. Monstrous Humanoid makes you immune to effects that specifically target Humanoids, like charm person, enlarge person, and similar.

[OldTrees1]

Yup. Was going to say the same thing. Monstrous Humanoid makes you immune to effects that specifically target Humanoids, like charm person, enlarge person, and similar.

:smallredface:
I keep forgetting that Goliaths are monstrous humanoids.

[Petrocorus]

Except for Vampire Lords. They're pretty sweet, and also the most unkillable thing I can think of. Even the Tarrasque has a listed way of killing it; the Vampire Lord has a complicated way to stop him from reviving, but then whoops someone pricks their finger over the corpse and Dracula is back, baby.

But yeah, that LA is killer. What is it again, +8? Yeah, wait with getting that template until you don't feel like levelling any more.

Where are the Vampire Lords from?


The Curst Template provide near immortality for LA +3, only totally destroying their body kills them, although if they would drop below zero hp they become paralyzed for a day or more.

And this template?


Vampires broken as in like how Godzilla broke Japan, right? Because they suck big hairy Godzilla balls, as written.

Actually, i don't really understand what makes Vampire so weak. I mean, there is the LA, of course. But the features of the template don't look so weak to me?

[Gemini476]

Where are the Vampire Lords from?

It's from a 3E Web Enhancement. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

The only way to make sure that a vampire lord does not return is to cut its head from its body, burn the body and the head separately, scatter the ashes from the body over running water, immerse the ashes from the head in holy water, and bury the immersed ashes in consecrated ground. However, if the head ashes are ever unearthed and somehow separated from the holy water, dried thoroughly, and then subjected to an unhallow spell, the vampire lord can regenerate in a week if the ashes are placed inside one of its places of rest.

You know how Dracula always returns in Castlevania and such? Yeah. You think Transylvania is safe, but then POW! Cultists revive him and he's back.

[Rubik]

Actually, i don't really understand what makes Vampire so weak. I mean, there is the LA, of course. But the features of the template don't look so weak to me?The LA is insane and the weaknesses are absolutely crippling.

[Petrocorus]

It's from a 3E Web Enhancement. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)


Is that me or is there no LA listed?

[Zanos]

Vampire is either broken or worthless depending on what you're doing with it.

If you're playing it like an adventuring vampire, it's garbage. +8 LA is too high for anyone to stomach. The reduction in HP/BaB/Saves/Features is just way too high for even mundane classes to stomach. The weaknesses are just adding insult to injury, and make them unplayable in most parties.

Alternatively, you can abuse create spawn and turn anything with more 5 or more HD into another awesome slave.

There is no LA listed for Vampire Lord, but people argue as to whether this constitutes LA + 0 or LA --.

[nedz]

Is that me or is there no LA listed?

CR +3, no LA but it's a template.

So either

No playable because no LA
Playable with the same LA as the base creature

[Psyren]

Vampire is either broken or worthless depending on what you're doing with it.

If you're playing it like an adventuring vampire, it's garbage. +8 LA is too high for anyone to stomach. The reduction in HP/BaB/Saves/Features is just way too high for even mundane classes to stomach. The weaknesses are just adding insult to injury, and make them unplayable in most parties.

Alternatively, you can abuse create spawn and turn anything with more 5 or more HD into another awesome slave.

There is no LA listed for Vampire Lord, but people argue as to whether this constitutes LA + 0 or LA --.

PF Vampire's LA is much more reasonable (insofar as any PF creature has LA.)

[Zanos]

PF Vampire's LA is much more reasonable (insofar as any PF creature has LA.)
Indeed, what PF did with LA/CR was one of their better design choices.

[DrDeth]

Meh. Savage Species is really 3.0, not matter what WotC sez. And, they really put the book out in a hurry.

How about the Lumi?

[Gemini476]

Meh. Savage Species is really 3.0, not matter what WotC sez. And, they really put the book out in a hurry.

How about the Lumi?

2 RHD, +2 LA for what, outsider traits +2 Str +4 Con +4 Wis -2 Dex, immunity to a bunch of blinding and negative energy effects, Improved initiative, and some low-level (Sp)s (that admittedly include 3/day Glitterdust?)

They're alright, but compare a level 5 Lumi with something with five levels in classes. They're pretty bad as casters since losing four CL is inexcusable, although mundanes might like the immunities and +2 Str +4 Con.

However, what do they bring to the table that the Necropolitan, Aasimar, Dragonborn, or Gith don't? They're good, but I wouldn't call them broken.

[Immabozo]

OldTrees1, please learn to close your quote HTML (I think?) code. It is rather annoying to have the codes hanging out all over your posts and not closed and therefore not doing anything.


Actually, i don't really understand what makes Vampire so weak. I mean, there is the LA, of course. But the features of the template don't look so weak to me?

LA is so high, almost no one will ever use it on a player character and the weaknesses are SO bad. Crippling. Cant even jump over a little 2-foot stream of water, destroyed in day light makes adventuring with a party out of the question unless they all work around your schedule.

[OldTrees1]

OldTrees1, please learn to close your quote HTML (I think?) code. It is rather annoying to have the codes hanging out all over your posts and not closed and therefore not doing anything.


I usually do close the quote.

Edit: Fixed

[Rubik]

LA is so high, almost no one will ever use it on a player character and the weaknesses are SO bad. Crippling. Cant even jump over a little 2-foot stream of water, destroyed in day light makes adventuring with a party out of the question unless they all work around your schedule.Don't forget that you can't enter any private building ever unless a resident invites you in, meaning castles and such are generally entirely off-limits. And anyone who so much as eats marinara sauce or wears a taijitu symbol or highly polished armor or shield renders you basically impotent.

And all for the cost of 8 insignificant levels.

[Petrocorus]

BTW, is there a easy way to do the double quote thing?

[killem2]

Overpowered != Broken

Also, while humans remain a top choice for many classes in PF, they are not hands down the best anymore.

In the common subtext, overpowered is just a pc word for the slang term broken.

[Augmental]

In the common subtext, overpowered is just a pc word for the slang term broken.

Player character or politically correct?

[OldTrees1]

BTW, is there a easy way to do the double quote thing?

Do you mean

Person 1

Person 2
If so then click the " for person 1 and the Quote for person 2.

If you meant


Person 1Person 2
Then you need to insert Person 2 in manually since it is deleted by default.

[Immabozo]

I usually do close the quote.

Edit: Fixed

Thank you.


Don't forget that you can't enter any private building ever unless a resident invites you in, meaning castles and such are generally entirely off-limits. And anyone who so much as eats marinara sauce or wears a taijitu symbol or highly polished armor or shield renders you basically impotent.

And all for the cost of 8 insignificant levels.

I cant believe I forgot the highlights!

[Petrocorus]

Then you need to insert Person 2 in manually since it is deleted by default.

Yes, that's what i meant, i was wondering if there were a way not to have to do it manually.

[OldTrees1]

Yes, that's what i meant, i was wondering if there were a way not to have to do it manually.

Travel back in time 2 years? (I was on taking a break from these forums when the change occurred.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Did someone mention Maug yet? Their LA is painful at +3, but they get massive stat buffs, cobstruct traits, and large size. And a few random features to boot.

[Komatik]

Thanks, guys. You made me read the Vampire Lord entry again, and now I'm sad that D&D vampires are unplayable, and that all those sweet, nice, flavourful at-will SLAs* and other properties - like the fact that the vampire could theoretically be a functional party member, how it's robbed of strength by daylight instead of boringly going kaboom, and how killing it is Really Bloody Hard - are tied to boring atrocities of OP like voice-dependant Dominate and just thoroughly absurd numbers in stat bonuses and the like. Cha +12 anyone?

I just want to play a vampire that's varied, flavourful, interesting. Maybe a bit broken, but not that much, and most certainly not in that way. http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4251/ixgr.png

Apart from that, I love this thread. D&D 3.5 races are typically insufferably bland, so there's a lot of actually good stuff to go through.


* There are very few things in this game I detest more than racial SLAs for no damn reason.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A modded Vampire Lord is on my list of things to get my DM to let me play(also ibcluding kalareem, the shadow canomorph, sharn, and Advanced Beastiary's Blood Knight). I want to drop a pile of the SLAs anyways, so try asking about that. Also half vampire may get close to your original desire.

[Maginomicon]

I just want to play a vampire that's varied, flavourful, interesting. Maybe a bit broken, but not that much, and most certainly not in that way. http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4251/ixgr.png
The Katane template might be up your alley.

Katane (Sorta Half-Vampire) Template (CR +1; LA +4; Dragon Magazine #313 page 60)

[Necroticplague]

The Katane template might be up your alley.

Katane (Sorta Half-Vampire) Template (CR +1; LA +4; Dragon Magazine #313 page 60)

Speaking of that dragon mag issue, I would like to bring up Gheden. Basically half-zombie. Not incredibly powerful, but it does have one incredibly useful trait: immunity to nonlethal, flat and simple, so complicated build progression, no eliminating your own con score.Half red-dragon Gheden Saint with the Troll blooded feat (since Gheden gives prerequisite as a bonus feat, it can be taken by far more races) is ECl6 and immune to all HP damage, barring Searing Spell.

[Immabozo]

Speaking of that dragon mag issue, I would like to bring up Gheden. Basically half-zombie. Not incredibly powerful, but it does have one incredibly useful trait: immunity to nonlethal, flat and simple, so complicated build progression, no eliminating your own con score.Half red-dragon Gheden Saint with the Troll blooded feat (since Gheden gives prerequisite as a bonus feat, it can be taken by far more races) is ECl6 and immune to all HP damage, barring Searing Spell.

Speaking of that issue, Half dragon and Half minotaur are amazing, but stupid broken when you realize how it says if you gained a size category, you get stats per the monster manual and medium to large is +8 str, +4 con, +4 NA, if memory serves. And that's on top of the stupid awesome bonuses the templates normally give

[DrDeth]

So then, we're in a campaign were you must have LA at least +1, and no class levels for a ECL of 3. Thus LA+1 and two racial HD is fine. or LA+2 and one racial HD.

What are the best races, given that? We're level 4, almost 5. So, no more than a ECL 4, please.

[Petrocorus]

So then, we're in a campaign were you must have LA at least +1, and no class levels for a ECL of 3. Thus LA+1 and two racial HD is fine. or LA+2 and one racial HD.

What are the best races, given that? We're level 4, almost 5. So, no more than a ECL 4, please.

Personally, i realy like the Fey'ri. LA +2
You can do a lot of thing with the Draconic template (LA +1) and the Shadow templates (LA +2 IIRC).

[Immabozo]

So then, we're in a campaign were you must have LA at least +1, and no class levels for a ECL of 3. Thus LA+1 and two racial HD is fine. or LA+2 and one racial HD.

What are the best races, given that? We're level 4, almost 5. So, no more than a ECL 4, please.

Can you do 3 RHD and 0 LA? Same ECL!

[Rebel7284]

So then, we're in a campaign were you must have LA at least +1, and no class levels for a ECL of 3. Thus LA+1 and two racial HD is fine. or LA+2 and one racial HD.

What are the best races, given that? We're level 4, almost 5. So, no more than a ECL 4, please.

- Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale is 3HD 0LA as I recall and large sized. Makes for good bruisers.
- Marrulurk from sandstorm make for some great rogues with 1LA and 2HD.

[Rubik]

Evolved undead (x1) necropolitan caster of some flavor? Maybe a necromancer or dread necromancer or shaper psion.

[Necroticplague]

So then, we're in a campaign were you must have LA at least +1, and no class levels for a ECL of 3. Thus LA+1 and two racial HD is fine. or LA+2 and one racial HD.

What are the best races, given that? We're level 4, almost 5. So, no more than a ECL 4, please.

Feral lolth-touched half-Minotaur water Orc dominates melee, with an impressive str and con. Dumb as a bag of rock, so you can get more stats by reducing int to 3 before stat mods (since it can't go below 3 anyway). If my memories right, that's a +20 str right off the bat.

[DrDeth]

Can you do 3 RHD and 0 LA? Same ECL!

No. Gotta have at least 1LA. Can be three, but that's usually crazy.

Rubik, yeah, I love necropolitain, and even a Dread Necro, but it actually has to be a true LA.

[DrDeth]

- Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale is 3HD 0LA as I recall and large sized. Makes for good bruisers.
- Marrulurk from sandstorm make for some great rogues with 1LA and 2HD.

Is marrulurk actually statted out as a PC race? Linky?

And, I think Anthropomorphic animals may be a stretch and esp Baleen Whale.

[Rubik]

Rubik, yeah, I love necropolitain, and even a Dread Necro, but it actually has to be a true LA.Hence the evolved undead template.

[StrangeLooper]

Can you get the ghost savage progression from online? For one level you are immune to almost anything due to being ethereal whenever you wish.

[Pan151]

A vampire is certainly unplayable as a standard adventurer, but as a PC in general the +8 LA is arguably justified, in that being a vampire allows you to pretty much enslave entire cities as your obedient thralls. Thralls whose enchantments cannot be dispelled, might I add.

Again, not particularly useful in a standard campaign, but still...

[Squirrel_Dude]

Aasimar in Pathfinder were dumb from the moment they were published (+2/+2 no penalty +more stuff), and then they were given the ability to choose which scores the +2 bonuses went to. They are hands down the best class for any divine caster (paragon surge/mystic past life not withstanding) and even a strong choice for CHA based arcane casters.

[OldTrees1]

Can you get the ghost savage progression from online? For one level you are immune to almost anything due to being ethereal whenever you wish.

Warning: Anyone physically on the Ethereal plane will chew you up.

[killem2]

Player character or politically correct?

politically correct, if gamer terms can even be politically correct as ridiculous as that sounds lol

Maybe popular accepted term is better.

[StrangeLooper]

Can you get the ghost savage progression from online? For one level you are immune to almost anything due to being ethereal whenever you wish.
Warning: Anyone physically on the Ethereal plane will chew you up.

Nah, theres no special advantage for them. Its fine to loose your advantage to the occasional monster since pretty much nothing else can hurt you.

[Sith_Happens]

You mean a human? :smalltongue:

(Hell, if it's a strongheart halfling you'd even get the feat.)

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7c2e0db298912d034d9b368ab68dff7b/tumblr_my9w1d6UDu1r3ccluo1_400.jpg

[OldTrees1]

Nah, theres no special advantage for them. Its fine to loose your advantage to the occasional monster since pretty much nothing else can hurt you.

Except
1) You would face them alone since your party can't see them
2) You probably have been focusing on an incorporeal fighting style

[Psyren]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7c2e0db298912d034d9b368ab68dff7b/tumblr_my9w1d6UDu1r3ccluo1_400.jpg

#DeepCaydenThoughts


Except
1) You would face them alone since your party can't see them
2) You probably have been focusing on an incorporeal fighting style

Indeed, by RAW every X rounds on the EP your DM has to roll on the ethereal encounters table. It's really not a good place to hang out for long.

As a high-level Meditant it can be fun though, especially since you don't need to eat.

[Rejusu]

I want to chime in that humans aren't really the "best" race, just the most versatile. The thing about humans is they're almost universally a good choice for any class and never a bad choice. No stat advantages but no disadvantages and a free feat and skill points. And don't think there's a class that can't make use of an extra feat somehow. You can't go wrong playing human. They're rarely the best choice though, stat bonuses, racial abilities, and racial sub levels mean that a lot of races are just as viable options for a particular class if not more so.

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds are pretty silly when you consider they can technically qualify for epic feats. I don't think the s stat bonuses are as broken as everyone claims though. It costs you a feat and Kobolds have a weak stat line already. They have -4 overall to begin with and one of those is a penalty to con. Sure Venerable Dragon wrought boosts it to a +5 overall most characters only really get any real benefit out of two of their mental stats.

On the discussion of vampires and the like it is somewhat disappointing that LA locks out a lot of cool races. Like Centaurs.

[NotScaryBats]

Mohrgs from Libris Mortis are just about the worst that I can think of.

Its a 20 level progression that you can't multiclass out of once started that doesn't give you skills or HD every level.

By level 12, you finally get your paralyzing touch once a day
- what's that? The ghoul got 3 attacks that paralyze at level 2?

By level 20, you finally get your create spawn
- which the wight got at level 8, and doesn't only create zombies

By level 20, you have +7 BAB, 5 feats, and 14d12 HP

It is the worst race and class in the game, I am confident to say.

[Immabozo]

Mohrgs from Libris Mortis are just about the worst that I can think of.

Its a 20 level progression that you can't multiclass out of once started that doesn't give you skills or HD every level.

By level 12, you finally get your paralyzing touch once a day
- what's that? The ghoul got 3 attacks that paralyze at level 2?

By level 20, you finally get your create spawn
- which the wight got at level 8, and doesn't only create zombies

By level 20, you have +7 BAB, 5 feats, and 14d12 HP

It is the worst race and class in the game, I am confident to say.

worse than truenamer?

[Necroticplague]

worse than truenamer?

Yes, because at least true namer 20 has 20 hd and acces to gate.

[NotScaryBats]

A Truenamer would be infinitely better, yes. Also, you can multiclass or prestige out of Truenamer -- once you go Mohrg, you can do nothing else.

[eggynack]

The truenamer, while fundamentally broken in a number of ways, is secretly a kinda reasonable class. It hangs out around tier four with some decent levels of optimization, paling around with warlocks and barbarians.

[Komatik]

A modded Vampire Lord is on my list of things to get my DM to let me play(also ibcluding kalareem, the shadow canomorph, sharn, and Advanced Beastiary's Blood Knight). I want to drop a pile of the SLAs anyways, so try asking about that. Also half vampire may get close to your original desire.


The Katane template might be up your alley.

Katane (Sorta Half-Vampire) Template (CR +1; LA +4; Dragon Magazine #313 page 60)


A vampire is certainly unplayable as a standard adventurer, but as a PC in general the +8 LA is arguably justified, in that being a vampire allows you to pretty much enslave entire cities as your obedient thralls. Thralls whose enchantments cannot be dispelled, might I add.

Again, not particularly useful in a standard campaign, but still...

The need for SLAs overwhelmed me and forced me to work. Took tempestman's already-awesome template, fixed stuff and added all the SLAs ^___^

Just don't ask where the LA went. It's, uh, on vacation. Yes. Vacation. Carceri is a good destination, or so I've heard. Hope the vacation is good. Most joyful, yes...

[Immabozo]

The truenamer, while fundamentally broken in a number of ways, is secretly a kinda reasonable class. It hangs out around tier four with some decent levels of optimization, paling around with warlocks and barbarians.

Truenamer is specifically below tier 6 in it's own tier as utterly unplayably bad. with high optimization, Truenamer can be a higher tier, but thats by taking other classes.

it is so bad, I have heard of people playing it so they can say they accomplished the feat.

[Segev]

Truenamer is specifically below tier 6 in it's own tier as utterly unplayably bad. with high optimization, Truenamer can be a higher tier, but thats by taking other classes.

it is so bad, I have heard of people playing it so they can say they accomplished the feat.

This is hyperbole. It is truly badly designed and underpowered. However, the biggest weakness is something a reasonable amount of optimization can overcome (just use the rules for maximizing a skill check; they're out there, and they do work, but it does take investment). What remains is an extreme narrowness, to make a Warmage feel versatile and a cap on their power levels which gives them only a very few top-tier spell-equivalents, and that keeps it down in Tier 4 or very low Tier 3, barring one (or two) extreme tricks that let it dance with the Wizard due to the one trick being that good (Gate).

[Immabozo]

This is hyperbole. It is truly badly designed and underpowered. However, the biggest weakness is something a reasonable amount of optimization can overcome (just use the rules for maximizing a skill check; they're out there, and they do work, but it does take investment). What remains is an extreme narrowness, to make a Warmage feel versatile and a cap on their power levels which gives them only a very few top-tier spell-equivalents, and that keeps it down in Tier 4 or very low Tier 3, barring one (or two) extreme tricks that let it dance with the Wizard due to the one trick being that good (Gate).

I do see your point and it is well said

[Amphetryon]

This is hyperbole. It is truly badly designed and underpowered. However, the biggest weakness is something a reasonable amount of optimization can overcome (just use the rules for maximizing a skill check; they're out there, and they do work, but it does take investment). What remains is an extreme narrowness, to make a Warmage feel versatile and a cap on their power levels which gives them only a very few top-tier spell-equivalents, and that keeps it down in Tier 4 or very low Tier 3, barring one (or two) extreme tricks that let it dance with the Wizard due to the one trick being that good (Gate).

The portion I highlighted is why they don't fit in the standard Tier descriptions, which rate Classes irrespective of optimization except to assume that everyone at the table is roughly using an equal amount.

[Necroticplague]

Pixies are pretty strong, all and all considering. The weakness caused by the lost levels can be overcome with both their DR (because other than crazy prepared adventurers, who the heck caries cold iron weapon?), their permanent greater invisibility, and their very high AC (from dex boost and small size). Stat boosts aren't anything to sneeze at, either. Maybe not the best casters, but they make murderous rogues.

[Snowbluff]

The portion I highlighted is why they don't fit in the standard Tier descriptions, which rate Classes irrespective of optimization except to assume that everyone at the table is roughly using an equal amount.This. People keep making this mistake and it irks me.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Evolved undead (x1) necropolitan caster of some flavor? Maybe a necromancer or dread necromancer or shaper psion.

This is inconsistently good. IT depends if your DM makes you roll for your SLA.

[Rubik]

This is inconsistently good. IT depends if your DM makes you roll for your SLA.Although most of the SLAs are excellent, with only See Invisibility and Cone of Cold really being less-than-amazing. (Do note that the template allows you to choose your SLA if you want.)

[DrDeth]

The portion I highlighted is why they don't fit in the standard Tier descriptions, which rate Classes irrespective of optimization except to assume that everyone at the table is roughly using an equal amount.

Are Pixies stated out as PC races in any 3.5 book?

[Necroticplague]

Are Pixies stated out as PC races in any 3.5 book?

Yeah, there on th srd, which means their probably in the monster manual.

[Immabozo]

Yeah, there on th srd, which means their probably in the monster manual.

the are in one of the Monster manuals