Black Guy dies first in OOTS

[Sunken Valley]

I just noticed something in the comic. A common cliche in media is of a group of character's, the black or ethnic one is often the one who dies first. I see this somewhat in OOTS.

Roy was the first OOTS member to die and also the blackest. Next black is Durkon and he dies 2nd. Belkar has had a death prophecy hanging over him for years and his skin is a slightly darker shade than Haley and Elan.

It also extends to Team Evil, given that their asian member died, leaving the 3 representing psuedo-european culture living.

O-Chul is also the least asian of the azurites as his skin is paler and with his beard looks more conventionally western than all the named azurites who died in the battle.

I know Rich absolutely did not intend this. I know the comic is really good at showcasing non-white characters in many roles. I know that both the Linear Guild and Team Tarquin are very ethnically diverse and the black one is the only surviving member of the Linear Guild. I know we should be talking about character motivation not race. And I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this. I'm just pointing out something I've seen.

What do you think (other than that I'm delusional)?

[Ceaon]

What, exactly, is your point?

[Loreweaver15]

Point one: Rich has a history creating ethnically diverse characters for his story, irrelevant of how they'll end up. Roy and Durkon are among these characters, which number literally in the hundreds.

Point two: Roy and Durkon have storyline roles involving their deaths.

These two points are completely unrelated.

[Ridureyu]

RACISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, no. So, Redcloak looks like a traditional western european?

[Giggling Ghast]

I think Roy's death had more to do with the fact that he's the glue holding together this ragtag band of misfits, and his death resulted in the team breaking up and getting nothing accomplished for nearly a year.

[Sunken Valley]

RACISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, no. So, Redcloak looks like a traditional western european?

His clothing and backstory are similar to european culture as is the rest of the goblin race.

[Kish]

His clothing and backstory are similar to european culture as is the rest of the goblin race.
You...I...Uh...What?

[Vinyadan]

I don't think you can say that O'Chul is the least Asian of the Azurites and expect it to make sense.

But I do think you should have written "green guys die first".

Or, you know, Xykon dies first, given that it is a relevant detail.

And calling a demon "the black one" makes no sense to me. She isn't even human. Besides, the drow was much darker.

And Durkon seems darker now than he was before.

I also don't agree on using color hues as racial traits, but it seems a very important theme beyond the Atlantic.

[Shale]

You...I...Uh...What?

A red cape, fangs and eternal youth are very similar to what you'd find in very specific portions of Eastern Europe?

[Loreweaver15]

You...I...Uh...What?

Methinks Sunken Valley is from Tumblr.

[rockdeworld]

More appropriately, Redcloak isn't a protagonist, to which this trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackDudeDiesFirst) (generally) applies.

In any case, I think the first protagonist death goes to Shinjo, who is definitely not black. Or the chief of police, or any of the 2 pixies guarding the sigils for Dorukan's talisman.

[Link]

A red cape, fangs and eternal youth are very similar to what you'd find in very specific portions of Eastern Europe?

plus the armies of Africans coming up from the south to kill the European tribes. obviously.

[brionl]

Next black is Durkon and he dies 2nd.

"Next black"? Short, wide, bald, bearded, drinks lots of beer, worships Norse pantheon (Thor in particular), has a weird accent. Which part of that makes him "next black"?

[Gift Jeraff]

O-Chul is also the least asian of the azurites as his skin is paler

No, he's not. :smallconfused:

[DaggerPen]

O-Chul has the exact same skin tone as all but one of the Azurites, and Belkar has the exact same skin tone as the other white members of the Order.

http://ft.trillian.im/8e92bbd6fc57dc9f88a2972b98ff74b657a29b87/6nav03AdziWdFMqypIcBFi5jIIQbd.jpg

http://ft.trillian.im/8e92bbd6fc57dc9f88a2972b98ff74b657a29b87/6nav03sikm8igcAv4GQgbp5SbQugV.jpg

Anyway, re: Durkon and Roy dying first: while character of colors dying first or getting paler is an unfortunate time-honored tradition (I'm currently having quite the ragefit over some recent Connor Hawke news related to such a thing over in the comics fandom, in fact), I feel like the fact that neither character's death in any way removed them from the story generally belies the problematic nature of the trope in this case.

OOTS has some unfortunate gender related history, but I'd say that Rich has tried very hard to get a diverse skin tone sampling amongst characters of all the humanoid species, and has generally done pretty well. I don't think this is a real example of the "Black guy dies first" trope.

(Also, while Durkon isn't white, I wouldn't call him "next Black" either. Next darkest in tone, yes, but IIRC, the author refers to him as just "brown.")

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't find it to be an issue, though it might be funny if Roy lampshaded it. :smallwink:

[The Grim Author]

On the other hand, as is mentioned on the tropes page, Roy is a very clear example of the Bald Black Leader Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BaldBlackLeaderGuy) trope.

[Vinyadan]

"Next black"? Short, wide, bald, bearded, drinks lots of beer, worships Norse pantheon (Thor in particular), has a weird accent. Which part of that makes him "next black"?

Well, you know how the Norse pantheon looks like now :smallbiggrin:

http://s1.postimg.org/qp0rft7in/heimdall.png

Cool as hell!:smallcool:

[Shale]

Durkon is canonically a person of color, for whatever that's worth.

[Mrc.]

Durkon's death was planned from around the 4th comic so he dies before Roy. Other major characters that die before Roy include Righteye, Xykon Shojo and some named kobolds at the hands of Belkar. So many kobolds.

My point still stands, yes Roy is the first PC to die on screen, as was, but this is due to the story depicting it this way and not any decision, conscious or otherwise, on Rich's part to kill of the 'Black Guy'

[LadyEowyn]

Yeah, except Roy is the team leader and he came back. The "Black Guy Dies First" trope is about the single black character in a otherwise white cast being treated as basically disposable and killed off early. Given that both Roy and Durkon continued to be a major part of the plot after their "deaths", given the nature of death in D&D, I don't think it describes OotS at all. And as far as I can tell, Belkar's the same colour as Haley, Elan, and V.

As for Team Evil, Tsukiko's the only major member of it who was recognizably any human race. Xykon's a skeleton, Redcloak's green, and the MitD is a we-don't-know-what nonhuman creature.

[Cruiser1]

RACISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, humorous allegations of racism in OOTS have come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108302)! :smallwink:

[DaggerPen]

Yeah, except Roy is the team leader and he came back. The "Black Guy Dies First" trope is about the single black character in a otherwise white cast being treated as basically disposable and killed off early. Given that both Roy and Durkon continued to be a major part of the plot after their "deaths", given the nature of death in D&D, I don't think it describes OotS at all. And as far as I can tell, Belkar's the same colour as Haley, Elan, and V.

He is, I did a color comparison upthread.

Anyway, you more or less hit the nail on the head here. Roy's and Durkon's death arcs were about how absolutely vital both of them are to the team. Combine that with the fact that they are both in the story, and that Roy was barely even off-panel during the time he was dead anyway, and I'm going to say it doesn't count.

As for Tsukiko? I don't count characters with nonhuman skin tones in the same boat as characters of color for obvious reasons, but I'd say that the death of one Asian character amidst a variety of recurring Asian characters (such as O-Chul, Hinjo, Lien, etc.) does not fulfill the trope. Having multiple characters with comparable narrative roles of that ethnicity is basically the way to be able to kill off a character of color without getting into problematic territory.

[Sunken Valley]

I realise now it was probably a mistake to make this thread.

[Blacky the Blackball]

I think you'll find (by a careful re-reading of the comic) that it's actually the green guy who dies first. And second. And third.

In the very first panel of the first strip, no less.

[Tuwr]

On the other hand, as is mentioned on the tropes page, Roy is a very clear example of the Bald Black Leader Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BaldBlackLeaderGuy) trope.

Yeah. And had he instead taken Vaarsuvius' role in the group, he would have been the Magical Negro (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro), with some overlap of Black and Nerdy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackAndNerdy). If he had been the Haley character, he would have been a representative of the uncivilized African tribes, hunting with bow and arrows. If he had been Belkar, he would have been an Angry Black Man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AngryBlackMan) (or possibly a Scary Black Man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryBlackMan), given the psychopatical traits.) As Elan, he would be a good example of the black comic relief sidekick. Or even a full Ethnic Scrappy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EthnicScrappy) with unfortunate implications about his intelligence score.

I could go on, but my point is, unless you make all characters identical purple rabbits it is virtually impossible to avoid all possible tropes and stereotypes.

[Vinyadan]

I realise now it was probably a mistake to make this thread.

Nah, you just took a beehive and thrust your head in it. Everybody does that from time to time.

[Mrc.]

I realise now it was probably a mistake to make this thread.

Not necessarily, it's just that implications of racism are a very touchy subject for lots of people, even when done in the light-hearted manner that I assume your post was intended. I would go into this more but I risk breaking forum rules on my first day here!

As has been pointed out above, the 'Black Guy dies first' trope is based on the most inconsequential character being killed off purely to do so (kind of like redshirts actually, but a bit more character development). Roy is not only the leader of Oots, he has repeatedly rallied and raised his companions, planned several well-executed traps and often displays the most common sense. In short, Roy is integral to the order, and his death showed this.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[KillianHawkeye]

In any case, I think the first protagonist death goes to Shinjo, who is definitely not black.

Not only is he not black, but also that's not a real character in this story.

[Shale]

He didn't just die, he was erased from time itself!

[oppyu]

I realise now it was probably a mistake to make this thread.
Oh no, I found it very entertaining. I laughed just reading the thread title and imagining the discussion and how long it would take to be locked.

[Sir_Leorik]

I want it on record that I am not touching this subject, not even with my standard issue 10 foot pole. No, I am taking my ten foot pole and walking right back over to the "Roy's Armor" thread, where I will discuss the finer points of Armor Class, Armor Check Penalties, Mithral Breastplates, Dwarven Running Speed, Santa Claus, the use of steel coins for currency in the "Dragonlance" Campaign, and whether or not Roy's armor is filigreed or not.

Good day! :smalltongue:

[Socksy]

I'm laughing really hard guys

[Loreweaver15]

I'm laughing really hard guys

Good lord, that old April Fool's Day topic. Well-trolled, Dawnstar.