3.5 PHB1 only class, build?

[kroonermanblack]

Hello all. I'm entirely new to DnD aside from playing the various CRPGs for years (BG, IWD, Planescape, etc.). A coworker has decided to start up a new campaign and etc. etc. etc.

He's given us a 28 point buy, and PHB only restriction. We're also starting at level 1. I know I don't want to play a mage/cleric (we already have one cleric), and someone is debating playing monk. I considered bard, but our GM basically said 'you...might want to reconsider' so I'm leaning fighter or rogue. He didn't tell me I'd regret that choice, just politely said 'maybe not?' kinda thing.

I just thought I'd ask for any recommendations between the two. I typically enjoy both roles in games, though if I do a fighter I tend towards wanting a huge 2 handed weapon (Look, I played FF7 during my formative years, if I can't swing a sword the size of a city block, what's the point of playing?!). As a rogue, I tend to like the ranged aspect, but I hear that's mediocre at best in core 3.5, so assume I'd probably want to be a melee rogue instead?

It seems like a lot (i.e. all) the builds I see are for something more than just a bare bones PHB issuance, so that's why I'm making a somewhat rambling post here.

In short: simple fighter suggestions, simple rogue suggestions, and why I'd want either one, in a PHB-only, 28 point buy, game, as a total and complete noob to DnD as a whole. I'm open to anything else except the cleric/wiz/druid, though.

[kpumphre]

Is it a dungeon crawl or role play mixed in

[eggynack]

I would stick with your original plan. Bards are awesome. Just put together a good spell list and you're good to go. Druids can also work, if they don't count as a mage/cleric. I would avoid pretty much any non-caster in a core only game. A not-core only game too, honestly, but doubly so in a core only game.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Ranger, cause who doesn't loved the idea of the ranger. They turned out to be mediocre at best, but I always have fun. Entangle and lawnmower them to death.

[infomatic]

Bards are fine, but they're a lot more restricted in core-only. If you've got a decent-sized group, they can help a lot by making everybody better. (If that doesn't appeal to you, it could be a problem.)

I'd suggest Barbarian; it's simple, goes well with your hit-em-with-a-big-stick concept and can mix well with rogue, bard or fighter later on. And they have at least a few skills for out-of-combat, which are especially useful at low levels.

Human Barbarian

Str: 16 (10 points)
Dex: 12 (4 points)
Con: 14 (6 points)
Int: 10 (2 points)
Wis: 12 (4 points
Cha: 10 (2 points)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave (You can sub Cleave for Track if you're the only outdoorsy type, but Cleave's pretty useful at level 1).

Weapon: Greatsword or Guisarme.

(If you plan on multiclassing with Bard later, go 16/12/14/8/10/14. Bard saves will offset your avg. Wisdom)

[Gwendol]

Rogue/assassin could work, or rogue/shadowdancer (dip for HiPS). But yes, bard is never wrong.

[Chronos]

Bards get a lot of love outside of core, but even in core, they're the absolute best at social interactions, good at buffing up the party, and at least somewhat competent in everything else. If that appeals to you, and it's consistent with the sort of game your DM will be running, then it's a good choice.

[Rubik]

Bards have a darned good spell list, though it's not generally as flashy or overwhelming as the wizard's list is.

Build a PC who constantly mumbles to himself and base your performances on Perform (Oratory), then keep your bardic music up as long as you're conscious. Remember, bardic music has no duration unless stated otherwise, so you can keep it up as long as you want. Just mutter to yourself to keep the bardic music going and only stop when you cast spells, since you can talk to others just fine.

And make sure your party chips in for wands of Cure Light Wounds which you can use to heal out of combat, especially for if the cleric becomes incapacitated.

[infomatic]

Bards get a lot of love outside of core, but even in core, they're the absolute best at social interactions, good at buffing up the party, and at least somewhat competent in everything else. If that appeals to you, and it's consistent with the sort of game your DM will be running, then it's a good choice.

The DM doesn't think so, though, which a red flag to me. And Bards best spells require a good bit of familiarity to use to best effect, so I'm not sure I'd suggest it to a beginner (though there are handbooks around).

[Gemini476]

...Did he warn that other player away from Monk, too? Because he should have.

Bard is pretty neat. It's not as great in core as out of it, but it's neat. Just don't bother much with singing. Your spell list is pretty decent.

[Rubik]

Just convince everyone in the group to play druids.

You have the best chance of survival out of any other combination of Core-only level 1s combined with the ability to take on virtually any role you want, especially if you're willing to dip for a level or two. Rogue 1/druid 19? You have a trapsmith. Monk 2/druid 18? An unarmed, unarmored combat specialist. Druid 20? Basically anything else.

[kroonermanblack]

...Did he warn that other player away from Monk, too? Because he should have.

Bard is pretty neat. It's not as great in core as out of it, but it's neat. Just don't bother much with singing. Your spell list is pretty decent.

Well, the exact quote, pared down, went something like 'and K here is thinking bard, and D here is thinking monk, though you might want to reconsider'.

So I'm not entirely sure that's at the monk, or the bard, or both, but I kind of read that as, since it's level 1, we're going to be a moderately combat heavy run? He did say 'play what you want, I'll compensate' so I'm not super worried.

If I wanted to do just a straight PHB1 bard, what would I need to make sure I don't screw up, or which weapons might I want, etc.?

[kpumphre]

I would suggest Rogue. You get ton of skills assuming this is going to have any length and is very fun.

[infomatic]

Here are a couple core-only (or mostly core) bard builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242877)

I'd say your best options in core are either:

• 2H Weapon Style (Bard8/Bbn2, going into Dragon Disciple if you want a more melee focus later, or stick with Bard16/Bbn4)

• Archery Style: Bard8/ArcaneArcher2 (Don't go farther than 2 in AA, go back to bard or, possibly, Eldritch Knight)

[eggynack]

If I wanted to do just a straight PHB1 bard, what would I need to make sure I don't screw up, or which weapons might I want, etc.?
It's mostly just spell selection. First level has 4 0th's, which means something like detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, and summon instrument. It's not all that important what other two spells you pick as long as you get detect magic and prestidigitation, cause those are awesome. Second level you get 2 1st's, so I would go with something like silent image and grease. I don't know what the third first level spell you should pick is, so just pick something nifty unless someone else has something good. Summon monster is neat. Next level you get 2 2nd's. Alter self is an absolute must, enabling ridiculous shenanigans, and for the other spell, maybe glitterdust, invisibility, or mirror image. That should work out pretty well for a few levels.

Edit: Skill selection is also highly relevant. Concentration, diplomacy, spellcraft, and use magic device are things you should definitely take. After that, it depends on what specific stuff you want to do, like bluff and sense motive for facery, hide and move silently for sneakery, and spot and listen for scoutery.

[nedz]

It's mostly just spell selection. First level has 4 0th's, which means something like detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, and summon instrument. It's not all that important what other two spells you pick as long as you get detect magic and prestidigitation, cause those are awesome.

You forgot Ghost sound. This is imperative so that you can find out how your DM runs illusions. Illusions are very flexible, but can suffer from eccentric DMing. You have to find out the score before you plunge in with Silent Image — which is, of course, your best level 1 spell; barring eccentric DMs.

[infomatic]

That's what I meant about familiarity. Suggested thread:


The Awesomeness that is Silent Image (Dirty Tricks) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2830.0)

[roguemetal]

There should be nobody debating playing Monk.
They simply shouldn't do it.

Fighter should be handled with a two handed weapon Power Attack and the fighter feats line. Alternatively a Paladin with mounted combat and a lance can do some damage. And a 1 level dip of Barbarian doesn't hurt in either case.

Rogue should only be a one level dip before going into Ranger, Bard, Druid or Wizard. Pure Rogue just isn't worth it.

[eggynack]

You forgot Ghost sound. This is imperative so that you can find out how your DM runs illusions. Illusions are very flexible, but can suffer from eccentric DMing. You have to find out the score before you plunge in with Silent Image — which is, of course, your best level 1 spell; barring eccentric DMs.
True enough. Ghost sound be cool beans.

[Firechanter]

The most powerful, happy-go-lucky option would of course be the Faceroll class, Druid. You get class features that one by one are more powerful than entire classes. And you don't need to care about low stats.

If you don't want to Faceroll, but still be decently versatile and effective, Bard is probably fine. Core support is rather limited so your Inspire Courage can't be pumped very high. But only take this if the actual Fighting jobs are getting covered by your friends.

I advise against Ranger with this kind of PB. The class is terribly MAD, in fact your only real dumpstat is Cha. Very hard to pull off with 28 points. Your abilities look nice but are unsynergetic. For instance, you get to skip the Dex prereqs for Archery feats, but they only work in Light Armour so you will need good Dex anyway. To add insult to injury, the Druid is a better Ranger than any Ranger.

Really tricky question, this. Normally when someone says Core-only with low point buy, the advice is "play a full caster". If you don't want that, the list of options grows short.

[nedz]

That's what I meant about familiarity.

The spell selection on the builds you posted are quite ordinary.

1 - Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Remove Fear
2 - Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Heroism

Bards are very short on spells known, taking both Cure Light Wounds and Cure Moderate Wounds is a luxury.
Remove Fear is far too situational for most games.
Delay Poison you either never need, or need lots of, this should be wanded.

The rest are fine, but there are no active spells other than Heroism.
The bard should treat music as if it were a spell of 5 rounds duration, and then do something else for 4 rounds: Either cast or fight. Singing and Fighting is fine, but casting is better — certainly in core.

The skill selection is poor too: no Concentration or Tumble. You need Concentration at the least, if you are a combat bard — and these aren't caster Bards.

[infomatic]

Yeah, those were mostly for feats. He doesn't have to worry about 2nd-level spells for a few levels yet.

[Particle_Man]

Fighter should be handled with a two handed weapon Power Attack and the fighter feats line. Alternatively a Paladin with mounted combat and a lance can do some damage. And a 1 level dip of Barbarian doesn't hurt in either case.

Doesn't a paladin have to be LG to keep paladin abilities, and a barbarian has to be non-lawful to get rage abilities?

[ddude987]

Doesn't a paladin have to be LG to keep paladin abilities, and a barbarian has to be non-lawful to get rage abilities?

There are paladin variants in the srd/unearthed arcana that allow chaotic alignment for paladins.

[Chronos]

Yeah, but he's not using the SRD or Unearthed Arcana, just the PHB.

And I'll second Summon Instrument, which is an awesome spell. The key is that you don't have to use it as an instrument-- It's basically Summon Miscellaneous Object.

[Rejusu]

Well, the exact quote, pared down, went something like 'and K here is thinking bard, and D here is thinking monk, though you might want to reconsider'.

If it's a DM with a good system mastery then that was aimed at the Monk. If it wasn't aimed at the Monk then they don't have good system mastery. However your DM has restricted it to Core, which while good in the sense that there's less for new players to get their heads around is bad in the sense that the PHB contains some of the most powerful and the weakest base classes in the game.

Stay away from Monk/Paladin to start with, I'd say stay away from Fighter too. Straight fighter isn't particularly good outside of core but you'll run out of useful feats real fast with just the PHB. Barbarian is normally pretty decent but lacks a lot of its nicer options inside of core. Bard gets a lot less love without its splatbooks too. A rangers best options are again outside core. And rogues are a bit meh.

I'd say go with your original intention of Bard. Even with the core only restriction it's at least as good as the other options you've left open to yourself if not better. Failing that take Barbarian, the Power Attack feat and a great sword. Then just go straight Barbarian. I was going to suggest dipping a couple of levels of fighter as well but the core feat selection really does suck.

[holywhippet]

I do like bards. There is rarely a situation in which you can't be useful. Fighting? Even if your BAB isn't as good you can support your allies with your song or spells. For most non-combat situations the bard does will as they can be good at talking and knowledge skills.