Suggestion for a new char

[Supermouse]

Heya guys!

I moved cities, and started playing D&D some time ago with another group, in the city I'm living now. Contrary to my last group, that used to play an equal mix of dungeon crawl and roleplay, this new group tends to do dungeon crawl, with nearly no backstory or motivation for the player characters, and completely non existant roleplaying (save for a very few NPC encounters). I'm still playing because the DM is keeping it fun, and all the other players prefer this style of gaming, they like to roll tons of dice.

The DM doesn't care much about power playing. In fact, one of the players is a munchkin who get DM fiat for many silly things, like playing with an Monk who somehow gets 4 arms in the first adventure, and then just does a big leap on the alignment and turns chaotic to go Barbarian, and then the DM let him attack with all 4 arms using flurry of blows and etc etc etc (like I said, they like to roll dice).

Right now, I'm playing with a Planar Shephard (mainly because I wanted to piss off the 4 armed player, breaking the game more using RAW than him with DM fiat), but I don't think this campaign will go much longer, because we are wrecking the campaign world.


So, what I'm looking for is an idea for a new character, for the next campaign. I already realized that, even with all the sillyness, the rest of the players aren't as game breaking, mainly because they don't like to play with caster classes (who they think are weak and too confusing to play). Also, they don't play with caster classes because they like to do endurance runs. Usually, we only get to rest when we are at the end of the session, after way more than the 4 encounters recommended. Right now this is not a problem with PS, but I'm seeing that, even with everything that's going, Tier 1 and 2 classes are way overpowered to play with them, and I don't like to hold back an obviously powerfull class, because it seems like I'm playing dumbly and putting them down... IDK if you understand what I mean...

Then, what I'm planning to do is playing with T3/T4 classses, as this is the tiers they play, as they don't like casters. Although I prefer casters, I'm willing to give a chance to another type of character, but I don't have too much experience with them.
I like to be able to do many things, and have options, both inside and outside combat. The trip attacker fighter, pouncing barbarian, charger or other one trick ponies aren't my league, I become bored too easily, so I'll probably pick something with casting abilities/something similar to casting abilities.

So far, the options I was looking at were Factotum, Bard, Warlock and Dragonfire Adept.
However, I'm a bit concerned that Bard wouldn't be as useful because of the lack of social encounters, I don't know if Factotum will resist all the endurance runs (although it's Inspiration Points refill each encounter, their SLA's are severely limited in quantity), and, sincerely, as I never played one of those, I don't know if Warlock and DFA will give me some versatility, or if they just zap things/breathe fire over and over again untill I die of boredom before the end of the first session.
Are there other classes you would recommend?

EDIT: Forgot to say: combining everyone involved, we have access to every 3.5 splatbook (and even some 3.0, although we aren't allowed to use 3.0 content), and the DM doesn't make any restrictions about which books we can use (except for the aforementioned ban on 3.0 material).

Sorry for the long post :P

[ddude987]

Just from personal preference, Human Factotum 10/ Chameleon 10 is a very fun build.

[Xerlith]

You could always run a party buffer/face with a Bard/Crusader. Sword'n'Board + Dragonfire Inspiration seem fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Metahuman1]

Binder could be interesting. As could anything out of Tome of Battle, and Ardent/Psi-warrior/Psion could all work nicely, especially if you gish them with monk and the Tash feat.

[herrhauptmann]

If there's already a frontline melee, try a chain wielding maniac.

Spiked chain with trip, as well as deft opportunist, vexing/adaptable flanker, etc.

If the frontline melee is the monk/barb guy, maybe don't do this. If there's a character 1 level of rogue, and the craven feat, they will love you. You'll give them flanking in every fight, regardless of positioning.

[Supermouse]

Yeah, Factotum10/Chameleon10 in theory sounds pretty fun. However, gaining access to true spellcasting may lead to a stronger character than the rest of the group. I was thinking of going straight Factotum.

Never thought about combining Bard and Crusader. As we won't have much need for a party face, I can be a buffer.

As for psionic characters, I have EPH and CPsi (yeah, I know CPsi completely sucks, but I liked the concept of psionic chars, so I bought all their books), but the DM is wary about letting me play one (all that crap about them being unbalanced). But anyways, I would be away from the Psion, because of the sheer power, and I don't know if PsyWar would give me the options I like (isn't he just a "I buff myself and attack" class? Sorry, I really don't have any experience with non caster classes (love the Wizard since starte playing AD&D), so I didn't really look through all the options of PsyWar. Ardent, though, seems really a nice and flavorful class, I might give it a look.

I never really read any of the Tomes, although the DM has both (and, incidentaly, no one of the other players, who seems to like melee classes, used anything from ToB). All I know is that Truenamers suck (thanks do Zaq), Shadowmages are strange and Binders can change their abilities every day, is that right? If so, Binders can be cool to prevent boredom, I'll take a look at the class and the binds to see if it is viable (yeah, I know there is some kind of cheese using one bind from the web that lets you cas Summon Monster spells like crazy, but, as I said before, I'd rather not be a one trick pony).

And the Tome of Battle scares me. Although it's cool to have all those special attacks and even screaming the names everytime you use one, don't the classes of ToB fall into the realm of "I do combat, and suck at everything else"?

[Blinkdog]

Warmage/Sandshaper with a couple of domains via Arcane Disciple (with such a lenient DM, you could probably design your own deity, to get the domains you want).

Tons of spells, tons of options, but still within the power level of the group you described.

[Akolbi]

for a lark in PF i made a lvl5 barbarian orc, with a permanencied enlarge person.

his stats wound up at

24 (+2)
10
18
5
5
5


the main disadvantages are skills will and RP, and the way it sounds, two of those don't apply to you :smallwink:

[Xerlith]

And the Tome of Battle scares me. Although it's cool to have all those special attacks and even screaming the names everytime you use one, don't the classes of ToB fall into the realm of "I do combat, and suck at everything else"?

Not quite. Swordsage especially has a ton of stuff to do outside combat (nice skill list + ton of skill points). A Bard6/Crusader14 does healing, tanking, damage, speaking, utility, whatever you want them to do.

Factotum8/Warblade12 is an another pretty standard build which combines utility with awesome in-combat options.

[Metahuman1]

Even less then that, a straight class crusader or warblade are not the most awesome party faces ever but there quite serviceable.

And any tome of battle class with Mountain Hammer (All of them can have this by level 3.), trap finding, and a way to get search as a class skill, (I like rogue/Scout/Factotum 1 and the Able Learner or Jack of All Trades feat.) and be a solid trap finder and a reasonable scout in addition too being a not ineffective party face, and as mentioned, the crusader can do this and heal.

[Keld Denar]

Bard or Bardsader (Bard Crusader blend) might be decent. The key its to crank up Inspire Courage to eleven. Google "optimize inspire courage" for complete details. Make sure you have 5-8 songs per day, given your DMs encounter scene, so take Extra Music if you need more, esp on a Bardsader build. When you give out +8 out higher to hit and damage or +8d6 fire damage per hit, your mostly melee party will cut through most encounters handily.

[Supermouse]

Bard/crusader looks awesome by what I saw.

If I understood correctly, Dragonfire Inspiration exchanges the +x bônus damage from Inspire Courage with +Xd6 elemental damage, depending on the dragon choosen, and I can pick any kind of elemental damage for it, like sonic?


It seems nice, I'll have all the bard's cool stuff, I'll have a taste of playing a ToB character and having combat maneuvers and such without fully commiting to a melee class, and if I combo, I'll turn the entire party awesome, so there will be no hurt feelings.

I'll pick ToB to see how Crusader and the maneuver schools function over the weekend. In the meantime, do you have suggestions about droping points from Bard? 10/10, like suggested before, or there are another combinations I can make? If it is freeform (like choosing if I want more bard or more Crusader, it'll be awesome.

[Keld Denar]

If you take Extra Music, you should be fine with either Bard3/Crusader17 or Bard4/Crusader16. Both are very similar, since Bard4 is divisible by 2 and is full BAB. The 2nd build does start you off with the ability to choose from 2nd level maneuvers out of your first 6, which is a pretty strong advantage.

And DFI only does fire damage, unless you are a half dragon or have the Draconic Heritage feat. Since DH requires Sorc1 (or the Dragonblooded feat), its tough to swing on a character, especially since you'll be wanting other feats like Power Attack, Extra Music, and Song of the White Raven (which stacks your Bard and Crusader levels for the strength of your IC, which is the lynchpin of the build).

If your DM is really a 5+ encounter/day kinda guy, I can't help but recommend Extra Music. IC is what you do...you don't want to be without it.

[herrhauptmann]

And the Tome of Battle scares me. Although it's cool to have all those special attacks and even screaming the names everytime you use one, don't the classes of ToB fall into the realm of "I do combat, and suck at everything else"?
Not at all. Core melee classes, after level 5 or so are "I try to do combat, but suck at everything."

In combat, the usefulness of ToB classes is greater than the paladin/barbarian/fighter classes (except very specific builds).
Out of combat, they're better too. Skill points, useful class skills, all are better than the core classes they replace.
You can also buy access to your maneuvers with wondrous items like Gloves of the Shadow Hand. 1 greater pair of gloves, with a 1 level dip into swordsage gets you an essentially at will flight. (Or stack 2 least gloves and 1 greater) Even if they lack the support of barbarians, they're still very useful with their pseudo-magic abilities.

[Xerlith]

When splashing with ToB classes remember, that non-ToB class levels count as 1/2 your initiator level, so a Bard6/Crusader14 will have 17th Initiator level and access to 9th level maneuvers.

[herrhauptmann]

When splashing with ToB classes remember, that non-ToB class levels count as 1/2 your initiator level, so a Bard6/Crusader14 will have 17th Initiator level and access to 9th level maneuvers.

And that it's better to take the non-ToB classes earlier for more powerful maneuvers later.

Fighter12 followed by swordsage1 gets access to all the maneuvers/stances of a swordsage7.
Swordsage1 followed by fighter 12? 1st level maneuvers/stances.

[Xerlith]

All in all, I think that going Bard4/Crusader1/Bard+2/Crusader+13 leaves you with the best options and is the best proportion.

You can go Sword&Board, even without 2WFing them, because if you optimize your DFI a bit, you can easily end up with about +8d6 additional damage.
Badge of Valor (item), Inspirational Boost (spell), Song of the Heart (feat) - those three alone give you a +3 to your Inspire Courage - translating into +3d6 damage.

[Supermouse]

I was thinking in going with Bard4/Cruzader16. Maybe Bard 6 will get me some more spells and skills, but I don't know what I'll lose on the Crusader side, I'll pick ToB this weekend to take a look at the class and the maneuvers.

Also, considering that Song of the White Raven works both for Crusader and for Warblade, what are the advantages between using Crusader instead of Warblade for the build? All I know is that they have different ways of recharging maneuvers (Warblade needs to attack and Crusader recharges over time, right?), and a slightly different chassis.

[Regis_is_a_bro]

If you want a martial focused Factotum, consider going:
Factotum 8/ Warblade 12.

[Petrocorus]

As for psionic characters, I have EPH and CPsi (yeah, I know CPsi completely sucks, but I liked the concept of psionic chars, so I bought all their books), but the DM is wary about letting me play one (all that crap about them being unbalanced).

That's odd, because, overall, the psionic system is certainly more balanced than casting. Except for a handful of tricks. The Psion, the Ardent (with custom mantle ACF) and the Erudite (not StP) are solid T2 classes and are not game breaking without optimization, contrary to T1 classes which are, out of the box.



I never really read any of the Tomes, although the DM has both (and, incidentaly, no one of the other players, who seems to like melee classes, used anything from ToB).

Odd too, the ToB classes are the best melee classes, and the only ones who are balanced with the rest of the game. Actually, if i wanted to make DnD balanced, i would keep only psionic and ToB and ban all magic.



And the Tome of Battle scares me. Although it's cool to have all those special attacks and even screaming the names everytime you use one, don't the classes of ToB fall into the realm of "I do combat, and suck at everything else"?

As others have said, they actually have more things to do out of fight, the Crusader and the Warblade both have Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skill and skill points to put in it. They are also some manoeuvres or stance that have out of combat utilities, like a stance that gives Scent.
And overall, the system requires much less bookkeeping than casting.


Bard/crusader looks awesome by what I saw.

If I understood correctly, Dragonfire Inspiration exchanges the +x bônus damage from Inspire Courage with +Xd6 elemental damage, depending on the dragon choosen, and I can pick any kind of elemental damage for it, like sonic?

As others have replied, you actually need Dragontouched + Dragonic Heritage to change the damage type. Or, to dip into Dragon Shaman, which allows it too, thank to a sidebar about it. However, given your DM leniency on this kind of thing, if you take a dragonblooded race or the Draconic templates, you may ask him to change the damage type, and then, thanks to some table in Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragons, you can have Sonic, Force or maybe Light (if that can be a damage type).


I'll pick ToB to see how Crusader and the maneuver schools function over the weekend. In the meantime, do you have suggestions about droping points from Bard? 10/10, like suggested before, or there are another combinations I can make? If it is freeform (like choosing if I want more bard or more Crusader, it'll be awesome.
Given your party emphasis on endurance run, and the lack of roleplaying, more crusader levels might be better, but in this case, you'll want to optimize Bardic Music with some feats like previously explained by other posters.

[JW86]

I am a big fan of Swordsage/Ardent. Wisdom based Gish with nice combo of maneuvers and powers. Fate, freedom and energy mantles are nice.