In need of Bardic Advice

[Gale]

I want to make a melee-focused Bard for a campaign I'm joining. The problem is the DM banned both Tome of Battle - Book of Nine Swords and the feat Dragonfire Inspiration, which cripples most build ideas I've come across.
I'm basically wondering if anyone else has any other ideas as I can't seem to think of anything. I would honestly appreciate any builds revolving around Bards as I'm drawing a complete blank here.

[Flickerdart]

You don't need DFI to be an awesome melee bard. Your regular song is perfectly fine as a means of boosting damage. Take Power Attack, convert the to-hit into damage, and now you have +3 instead of +1d6, except it multiplies on crits. You do need to have a two-handed weapon for best PA mileage, though.

You should also consider spells like bladeweave or war cry which add a nasty side effect every time you skewer somebody.

[Vhaidara]

I recommend the following:
Perform (Wind Instruments): use a horn (+1 to Inspire Courage, Song and Silence). Tie it around your neck for hands-free use.
Song of the Heart: feat for +1 to Inspire Courage (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Inspirational Boost: Swift Action level 1 spell, +1 to your next Inspire Courage (Spell Compendium)
Words of Creation: Doubles your Inspire Courage bonus. Requires int and Cha 15, deals 3d4 nonlethal to you when you activate it (totally worth it) (Book of Exalted Deeds)

Take Power Attack at level 1, and be a human so you can pick up Martial Weapon Proficiency in a 2 hander
Now your level 6 bard outputs a +8 to hit and damage. If you are using a 2 handed weapon, you now power attack for full, using half the benefit of your bard song. You now have +4 to hit over your normal, and +16 to damage.

[Optimator]

The other alternative is Snowflake Wardance, but that works better with DFI and the ToB. Looks like PAing with a twohander is your best bet.

Don't forget to obtain Slippers of Battledancing!

[Feint's End]

What Keledrath said. +add Badge of Valor for another +1 bonus

then you could go pretty much bard all the way up (though more effective combinations exist of course). With a bonus of (regular inspire courage + 4)x2 hitting should be no problem even when going full pa.

Another thing you can use is a build I've used in a pbp not so long ago. It is based on using Dervish and bard in conjunction for some pretty hilarious damage. So if you would be interested in more of a battledancer approach let me know.

[Dread_Head]

As people have said normal IC is just fine as it is. Don't bother with Snowflake Wardance, the restriction on THF isn't worth it, just use a THW and Power Attack.

For a melee Bard trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn, Countersong for Spellbreaker Song, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack or Loresong (Loresong is great for PA builds due to the +4 to hit a few times a day), keep Inspire Competence so you can take Song of the Heart preferably by rading Suggestion for it.

Feats should be Power Attack, possibly Lingering song but since you can maintain your IC whilst attacking it probably isn't necessary just nice if you want to cast spells. Otherwise feats are pretty much up to what you want to do with the character. Dodge and Mobility for entry to Swiftblade or you can go with the Shocktrooper / Leap Attack ubercharger style feats.

Stat distribution should be Str > Con = Cha = Dex > Int > Wis depending upon rolls / PB. Race should be Human for the bonus feat or something with cool abilities or a Str or Cha boost.

For spells you should focus on buff spells such as Alter self, Mirror image and Haste or debuffs such as Grease, Tashas Hideous Laughter or Glitterdust.

The best prestige for a melee Bard is probably Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) but Abjurant Champion is always good on a gish. Straight Bard works just fine as a Gish or you can do the whole Virtuoso and Sublime Chord build.

For items a Crystal Echoblade (possibly with Harmonising enchantment) and a Badge of Valour are must buys, then just standard melee enhancements are good. Sudden stunning is brilliant if you get it past your DM. Gountlets of Heartfelt Blows are great once you can afford them and Slippers of Battledancing can be good depending upon how your Str and Cha compare.

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget, a long sword is a bard weapon and can be used in both hands, so all you'd be getting with Martial Weapon Proficiency is the base damage upgrade from 1d8 to 2d6, an average increase of 2.5 damage.

[Rubik]

Don't forget, a long sword is a bard weapon and can be used in both hands, so all you'd be getting with Martial Weapon Proficiency is the base damage upgrade from 1d8 to 2d6, an average increase of 2.5 damage.You also get to roll more dice. Another excellent reason to insist on Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Ziegander]

Any way to get Turn Undead on a Bard via ACF?

[Rubik]

Any way to get Turn Undead on a Bard via ACF?An arctic turn or a European one? Is it carrying a coconut?

Oh, wait. That's a swallow.

[Vhaidara]

Throwing out another idea: Since Bards are great Knowledge Monkeys, instead of MWP with a 2 hander, use the longsword 2 handed (as has been suggested) and pick up Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion.

[Fax Celestis]

Throwing out another idea: Since Bards are great Knowledge Monkeys, instead of MWP with a 2 hander, use the longsword 2 handed (as has been suggested) and pick up Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion.

http://www.alanly.ca/memes/why-not-both.jpg

[Dread_Head]

Any way to get Turn Undead on a Bard via ACF?

Not as a bard ACF, but a (cloistered) cleric dip is pretty decent on a bard for knowledge devotion and say travel domain or devotion, animal devotion, luck domain or pride domain.

Also the feat for MWP Guisarme or Greatsword probably isn't worth it unless you can take flaws and/or you're swimming in feats.

[nedz]

Any way to get Turn Undead on a Bard via ACF?

Nope.
Cleric Dip is good, especially for a Divine Bard — though that closes down lots of options.
Sacred Exorcist might be possible, but it would be quite a finagle.

[Darrin]

Any way to get Turn Undead on a Bard via ACF?

Necromantic Bloodline + Kin Mastery gets you Turn Undead 1/day, if Dragon Compendium is allowed.

Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) also works as a dip.

[sambouchah]

Not sure if anyone else gave you the following advice(didn't read the entire thread yet):

Human Bard 20
Feats:
(R)Power Attack
(1)Snowflake Wardance
(3)Song of the Heart
(6)Words of Creation

With those feats, a MW natural horn and a two handed weapon you'll be dishing out pretty solid damage. With +10 to attack and damage rolls you should be doing SOMETHING significant. Although the 3d4 non-lethal could knock you out if your constitution is low enough.

Hope I was of some use!

, Sam

EDIT: Wow, totally missed Keledrath's post:smalltongue: Seems as though I have been Swordsage'd

[Vhaidara]

Not a problem. I happen to be playing a bard in an army setting right now who is abusing the power of bardic music to win the war.

But yeah, the other nice part of this build is your stat priorities are honestly as follows
Minimums:
15 Cha
15 Int
13 Str
Con > Dex > Str > Cha > Int > Wis

Checking a standard 32 point buy (Looking at the DMG point buy I realize how nice I was to my players. Same prices, but start with 10s and gave them 30 points)...
Str 14 (6)
Dex 12 (4)
Con 14 (6)
Int 15 (8)
Wis 8 (0)
Cha 15 (8)

This means you should have a good reserve of HP for Words of Creation. 3d4 nonlethal isn't much up against minimum 5d6 +18

[Gale]

I should have mentioned this before but Words of Creation is also banned. Although, I think it was originally because the DM felt that it combined with Dragonfire Inspiration was broken.
Either way I'm kind of doubtful I can get it by him since I think he banned Book of Exalted Deeds all together.

[Vhaidara]

Well, that drops the PA combo from +6/+17 to +1/+12. Still pretty good.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ok so you DM hates a lot of stuff that's considered basic bard bread and butter. He's a hater but that's ok you can still rock the casbah.

As other people have mentioned, power attack+knowledge devotion+inspire courage(even without words of creation) is already gonna let you kick more arse in melee that just about any non-cleric (or Druid).

To step the game up even farther, take a level of battle dancer to add you cha to your touch ac. Then take levels in sublime chord and swiftblade.

Swiftblade will make sure that you start first in combat, never get slowed down by obstacles, move farther than everyone else, take extra actions and basically makes the haste spell count as all the arcane melee buffs you could want.

Sublime chord, in addition to having some of the coolest fluff of any prestige class, will let you cast spells like a champ. Now you'll have high level wizard buffs to support your melee viciousness and higher level slots to quicken lower level buffs so you can spend your standard actions chopping people.

Advance your sublime chord casting with whatever swiftblade levels you have left and top the whole thing off with abjurant champion.

With extra actions from haste and celerity, and decent bardic music (take chaos music if you want it to be better) you'll be unstoppable. Your skills will be good and you'll be able to run a bunch of good stuff off your cha.

[maniacalmojo]

you could turn your weapon into a musical instrument. Thrash some metal with your mighty axe.

[fluke1993]

Wait did someone say an arctic turn?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBzwv057GPs

[Xintas]

If you want to go melee, Arcane Strike and Ascetic mage both let you sacrifice spells for bonus damage, and Ascetic mage gives you Cha to AC. All it requires is a 1 level dip into monk. Take the Monk ACF Decisive strike and you are hitting some pretty big numbers once a round.

[Petrocorus]

You can also dip into Paladin of Freedom, for the proficiencies, the BAB and the Divine Grace.

Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Unseen Seer 4.

The Bardic Music + Power Attack with THF is a good combo, but you can look to the Snowflake Wardance to make a PA with a one-handed weapon while adding your charisma. And combine this with Slippers of Battle Dancing (from MIC, i think).

If the DM allows dragon Compendium, you can dip 1 level in Battle Dancer and get you Cha as bonus to your AC. Like the Monk's AC bonus, but Cha based. You may even get a crafter to create a Battle Dancer's Belt for you, just like a Cha-based Monk's Belt.

[MeeposFire]

I should have mentioned this before but Words of Creation is also banned. Although, I think it was originally because the DM felt that it combined with Dragonfire Inspiration was broken.
Either way I'm kind of doubtful I can get it by him since I think he banned Book of Exalted Deeds all together.

In a standard game I actually think this is a good thing. The way it combines with inspire courage is just evil. Everybody thinks about inspiration because the damage bonus is higher but honestly inspire courage really ups the potential (unless you have other morale bonus abilities in which case dragonfire gets a big boost). Frankly from experience unless you are trying to prove how good a bard is or if you are in a high OP game Words of Creation is WAY overkill. If you use just the standard OP for IC then the bonus will be well high enough to be felt by the entire table. With words of creation it will cause your average DM strain because the bonus will easily be high enough that the party can't miss even using power attack or being a wizard.

It sounds like you are in more of a standard game so WoC is just too much.

Bardic knack is just general awesome and you could go for a crystal echo blade if you go straight bard. It grants a good sonic damage bonus based on your bard level.

[Rebel7284]

Would Swiftblade be allowed?

[DR27]

It sounds like you are in more of a standard game so WoC is just too much.But since it's a standard game, Wizards need access to the Spell Compendium, there just isn't anything good for them in core. We can't have the stupid Bard overshadowing everybody by making their allies better.

To the OP:
You'll do fine with a bunch of Knowledge Devotion/minor Inspire Courage optimization/Spells. The other thing I particularly like for Bards is the feat Haunting Melody - fear effects go well with melee.

[Gale]

Swiftblade is banned as well. I'm starting to regret my choice here a bit. I appreciate the help but I'm still not seeing melee as the most viable option here. I'll probably try it regardless though.
Ironically enough it's not much of a standard game. At least in the sense every other source book is available except the things I've mentioned. The only things banned are Book of Nine Swords, Savage Species, and apparently some Bard stuff.

[macdaddy]

Too bad Swiftblade is banned. My DM wouldn't let me take it either.

I recently re-formatted my character as a melee bard at 7th level. So far, he pretty much rocks. Dread_Head's advice was pretty damn good. I ended up at the same point as his advice after a week or two of over-analyzing. Wish he had chimed in on one of my posts. (definitely follow his advice on song substitution, it definitely adds some cool flavor and usage).

S 18, D 14, C 14, I 13, W 10 Chr 16

Power Attack, Melodic Casting, Knowledge Devotion, Combat Casting
(Song of the heart subbed for fascination/suggestion)

I am using a Long Sword +3 (best loot we have found by far, but everyone else is using Greatswords, exotic chains and Great Axes, so I get the long swords :) ).

With a +3 bard song (inspirational boost and Song of the Heart), using the weapon 2-handed, my to hit is +15, my damage is +12. That is before knowledge devotion and power attack. Sadly, my knowledge devotion is gimped because of my int, but its always worth +1/+1 and in most cases +2/+2.

This is comparable to the Barbarian in the party (normally he is +12 to hit and +7 to damage, which increases to +15 and +10 with my bard song; of course he gets a 2nd attack at +7 to hit).

With Alter Self, I have an AC of 26 (dex: 2, Chain shirt +1, Ring of protection +1, Natural Armor +8). I can also take an alter self form that gives spring attack and a move of 60.

I don't get a 2nd attack until 8th level unless I have Haste up, but its still a pretty hard hit :).

At 8th level, I will take Abjurant champion, mostly for the d10 HP and +1BaB, until I hit 10th, then a level of sublime chord and then more Abjurant Champ. After that its either Eldritch Knight or Sacred Exorcist; if we get that far.


Add in the occasional haste, glibness, alter self, mirror image, grease, and or silent image, and i'm doing pretty good.