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Darkshade
2007-01-27, 03:04 AM
now i know a lot of people are upset about LAs like the hobgoblins...
but this isnt about +1 LAs
I do believe this is the way to go for higher ones though...
step 1, if a creatures LA is 4-8 subtract one, if it is 9-14 subtract 2, if it is 15+ subtract 3
step 2, if creature has 2-6 racial hit dice subtract 1 from its LA, 7+ subtract 2


this will result in a much more balanced LA character, the reasoning is thus...

step 1, according to the basic guidelines for creating LAs it assumes that all levels it adds are equal, however those of us who actually play the game know that a 5 level difference between two character is way more drastic then a 1 level difference multiplied by 5, as losing that many hit dice greatly slows access to high level spells and abilities which are a form of exponential growth.
step 2, racial hit dice just don't = class levels, its just that simple. There is a reason that NPC classes count as a level lower for CR purposes, because they are not equal, and most are still superior to racial hit dice.

I open the board for commentary...

squishycube
2007-01-27, 03:50 AM
I don't think you can say it so generally. I would agree that many races mentioned in the thread about bad-deal-LA-creatures could really lose some LA weight. I think you need to judge it on a case-by-case basis and carefully judge whether the race is still in balance.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 03:53 AM
anytime you change something its a good idea to check it afterwards, but i think this makes a good rule of thumb

Zincorium
2007-01-27, 06:05 AM
I wouldn't strictly agree. The whole LA system is very vaguely defined and strongly weighted against certain abilities, and while I applaud the idea of reducing level adjustments in most areas, it's going to be an individual fix each time even after applying the logic you use.

Tengu
2007-01-27, 07:11 AM
I wonder how balanced would changing "LA+X" to "you have to take your first X levels as corresponding monster levels" be. Of course, dragons and outsiders would be pretty powerful by those rules.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-27, 12:33 PM
I wonder how balanced would changing "LA+X" to "you have to take your first X levels as corresponding monster levels" be. Of course, dragons and outsiders would be pretty powerful by those rules.

That's what Racial HD means.

kenjigoku
2007-01-27, 02:05 PM
Read Savage Species, it goes in DETAIL on how to use level adjustments and how to balance them for your campaign et. In addition, they teach you about the acid test :P so as for my discussion part I tend to lower the LA by 1 or 2 depending on certain factors.

Tengu
2007-01-27, 02:19 PM
That's what Racial HD means.

Yeah, but the idea is to completely replace LA with racial HDs. Instead of LA+1, a hobgoblin (for example) starts as level 1 humanoid, he can take a real class at level 2.

Draz74
2007-01-27, 03:46 PM
Yeah, but the idea is to completely replace LA with racial HDs. Instead of LA+1, a hobgoblin (for example) starts as level 1 humanoid, he can take a real class at level 2.

Yeah, but as you said before, the problem with this system is when Racial HD actually don't suck, and therefore don't end up giving you much of a disadvantage. (Outsider, Dragon, and (for a dumb tank type) Monstrous Humanoid.)

Kaerou
2007-01-27, 04:28 PM
The biggest problem for LA's and racial HD is with caster classes.

No amount of strength or HP's will ever make up for the power loss from your wizard, sorcerer or cleric/druid.

Nothing wins at D&D like a full wizard. And no racial HD + LA race can ever be an effective wizard in comparison to a 0LA race.

Indon
2007-01-27, 05:23 PM
So, what, Trolls drop to LA +3 in this system? That's only a change of two, I guess that's not that bad.

I took a gander at the dragons, since they have both LA and high HD, and I have one question.

Take a Juvenile Black Dragon; +4 LA, 12 HD. By your system, would they be dropped to LA +1 (parsing steps 1 and 2 simultaneously, or 1 before 2), or LA +2 (Parsing step 2 first)?

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-27, 06:33 PM
Yeah, but as you said before, the problem with this system is when Racial HD actually don't suck, and therefore don't end up giving you much of a disadvantage. (Outsider, Dragon, and (for a dumb tank type) Monstrous Humanoid.)

Interesting, but most the Racial HD are on various levels of power. Dragons would be great, and Vampires would still suck.

:smalltongue:
Not intended.

I suppose the OP's rule isn't too bad. I can't see anything wrong that hasn't been mentioned.

Darkshade
2007-01-27, 09:47 PM
some racial hit dice are admittedly better then others, but they still delay your advancement into high level feat chains and spellcasting and many prestige classes, plus you have to remember that racial hit dice almost never give you armor proficiency and give you an incredibly small list of class skills. the black dragon would drop to +1, but that would be one of the situations where it should probalby kick back up to +2, I could make the steps a little more complex, by adding that if the racial hit dice are dragon or outsider then reduce the level adjustment by one less

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-28, 09:40 AM
I wouldn't apply the LA adjustment just for having an LA to begin with. I'd check how many racial HD they have, then subtract 1 LA for every 2-3(sort of like LA buyback rules, but this will let them start a little earlier). 3 if it's a badass racial HD like Dragon/Outsider, or like the Lillend, and Rakshasa(incidentally, both are also Outsiders), has "effective class levels" for their HD. -1LA per 2 racial HD if it's an absolutely craptastic race like Humanoid, possibly Undead(Basically like a spellless 150% HP Cleric level). Anything above like Large probably wouldn't be suitable as a PC race anyway.

Maxymiuk
2007-01-28, 10:08 AM
A question I'd have here is, what are racial HD actually supposed to represent? Especially seeing as the humanoid races rarely have them at all? Anyone saw an "elf" creature lately? Or a "human?" No, it's always at least a Commoner. Whereas a minotaur gets the equivalent of 6 or so levels of progression by simply sitting on its three letters and only then can add classes on top of that. Huh?

How about simply dropping the entire racial hit die business and keeping the LA? Maybe throw in a few Con points to mitigate the resultant HP loss. This at least makes monstrer casters somewhat more viable.

Indon
2007-01-28, 11:28 AM
How about simply dropping the entire racial hit die business and keeping the LA? Maybe throw in a few Con points to mitigate the resultant HP loss. This at least makes monstrer casters somewhat more viable.

I do believe Savage Species applies a system something like that; they break down racial hit dice into 'levels', not all of which you need to have at a given time.

I don't recall the rules for gaining racial HD levels in that book, but having more intimate contact with such a system in the Warcraft D20 system, I can honestly say I prefer that system for powerful races.