How Do I Build a Melee Caster w/o Persist or Swift Spells?

[Ziegander]

I don't see how it's possible, for practical purposes, to utilize a full caster for strictly melee gish purposes without one or both of Persistent and/or Quickened spells (or spells that are inherently gishy and swift action cast). Can someone explain to me, in great detail, as if speaking to a 5 year old, how to gish using at minimum Bard level casting but without the benefit of easily Persisted/Quickened spells (I know how a Duskblade works, obviously)?

[Tessman the 2nd]

use spells to step up a advantageous melee? like grease or sleep,
I think it comes to the party composition: with a wizzy in the group you may not have to do that.

transmutations like alter self can be cast before combat, just generally long duration spells.

Or maybe the magic part of the gish is not for combat?

[malonkey1]

If you have the XP to spare, Permanency will be your friend, provided your GM lets you use the "research new spells to keep permanent" clause.

[Stux]

Yeah, gishes don't HAVE to be about using both sides of the character simultaneously, its about being able to switch on the fly and having more options. Sure doing both simultaneously may be more optimal a lot of the time, but that is why those two feats are considered to be very good. You aren't a failed gish if you only attack or cast a spell each turn and not both though, not by any means.

[Urpriest]

There are lots of decent buff spells at the 10min/level and up marks, so you can do without Persist if you really need to. At higher levels, 1min/level becomes long enough to cover a day's combats as well.

A round spent buffing isn't terrible, if it's only one round, especially if you can do it before ambushing your foes.

While you do point this out, there are in fact a fair number of gishy swift-action casting spells out there that don't require Quicken.

Beyond that, it's about options. You can spend a standard attacking, or a standard casting, but so long as they're both worthwhile things to do in different situations you're not wasting build resources. A low level Duskblade can get plenty of use out of Color Spray after all.

[Ziegander]

Yeah, gishes don't HAVE to be about using both sides of the character simultaneously, its about being able to switch on the fly and having more options. Sure doing both simultaneously may be more optimal a lot of the time, but that is why those two feats are considered to be very good. You aren't a failed gish if you only attack or cast a spell each turn and not both though, not by any means.

Well, sure, but that would have to mean that your melee side is ready to go without wasting spells on it. If you have to alternate between casting and fighting, but your fighting is terrible and you have to cast spells to make your fighting good, then I don't understand how you do something like fight on one turn and cast on another.

I would for example call it pretty much failure if you spend one round doing nothing but buffing yourself so that your next round you can attack slightly better than the Fighter. But then if you don't do that, you're looking at best at 3/4 BAB and little to nothing to make your attacks worthwhile so that you fight even worse than a Fighter (which is pretty bad).

Long duration buffs could work, but certainly not at low levels. Are there even enough good/great ones that actually give you effective melee attacks rather than MOAR damage so that this tactic could work in middle levels?

Permanency isn't a bad idea at all, unfortunately it also requires a fairly high character level.

Spells that help to make your melee more advantageous yet are still good enough on their own to be worth casting, like Grease is a great idea, but, again, are there enough of these at higher level to make the effort worth it?


There are lots of decent buff spells at the 10min/level and up marks, so you can do without Persist if you really need to. At higher levels, 1min/level becomes long enough to cover a day's combats as well.

The problem this poses, other than the obvious one of action disadvantage, is that without Persist you waste many more spell slots than you otherwise would. Also, how does 1 min/level become long enough to cover hours worth of combat? It's not like you can dismiss the spell and pick it right back up later. In the games I've played, almost all of the time, you'd cast it in combat, it covers you for that combat, and then you have to cast it again next combat.

Ambushes are all well and good, but they are by no means a given thing even if you do manage to catch the enemy ahead of time. Sometimes casting the spell before combat means that you waste the spell entirely -- occasionally, something will happen to prevent some of these fights from even happening.

[infomatic]

Long duration buffs could work, but certainly not at low levels.

Yes, Gishes are late bloomers. Always have been. But yes, there are plenty of choices. And there are options for boosting caster levels. What level are you talking about?


I would for example call it pretty much failure if you spend one round doing nothing but buffing yourself so that your next round you can attack slightly better than the Fighter

It's not, though. The key to buffing -- since the start of 3rd edition -- has been to pick your spots and, if possible, choose when combat starts so you have pre-buffing time. This is not new stuff.

[Stux]

Your buffs will be lasting multiple rounds though, you aren't just getting 1 round of attacking better than a fighter. So one round casting is often a pretty decent thing to do.

Or as was pointed out before - sleep/grease/color spray your enemies turn 1, then attack them.

Its all about having options. Sure you might not fight as well as a fighter without magic, but you have the option to cast magic. Sure you might not cast magic as well as a wizard, but you have the option to hit things. You aren't supposed to be as good at either side as someone dedicated to it. If thats a problem for you then gishes probably aren't for you.

[Ziegander]

Yes, Gishes are late bloomers. Always have been. But yes, there are plenty of choices. And there are options for boosting caster levels. What level are you talking about?

To me, if it can't be reasonably done by 3rd level, then that's unfortunate and unfun. What choices are we talking about here? Even expanding the level range all the way up to 10th level, what long-duration buff spells would you cast on yourself to reasonably fight your way through a few encounters and be better at it than a Fighter?


It's not, though. The key to buffing -- since the start of 3rd edition -- has been to pick your spots and, if possible, choose when combat starts so you have pre-buffing time. This is not new stuff.

Pre-buffing is certainly not a guaranteed thing, even in mid-to-high levels. And most combats are over in 3 or so rounds, so wasting a round to buff yourself is basically failure unless you utterly take over the encounter on those last two rounds. I don't see that happening with a gish, especially without Persist/Quicken.


Your buffs will be lasting multiple rounds though, you aren't just getting 1 round of attacking better than a fighter. So one round casting is often a pretty decent thing to do.

I suppose once you get to Polymorph this can be true. 7th level is a little late to the gish party, but I suppose it's better than never.

[Seerow]

No mention of Arcane Strike yet? It's about the only way I can think of without Persist/Swift spells.


Also do hour/level spells count? 10min/level? Long duration buffs that don't need metamagic will go a long way.


There's also a few spells that act as an attack. I can't remember the name but I know there's one where you throw your weapon and hit every enemy within a 60ft line. Ideally you want to find more spells along those lines. Also things like Lion's Charge, Celerity, etc, which may technically be swift actions but mostly act just to give you better action economy with the stuff you normally do.

Also, spell storing weapons. You have spells, and aren't using many actions to cast them in combat, store them in your weapon. At higher levels, possibly keep a handful of +1 spell storing weapons around for that express purpose, and refill them all after each combat.



And whatever's left after all that go towards utility. Skill boosters, divinations (especially if you're a Wizard, Spontaneous Divination is awesome), dispelling (useful out of combat, and occasionally useful in combat even as a standard action), and so on.

[infomatic]

So your problem is that 3rd level casters aren't effective at both casting and melee? Ah.


7th level is a little late to the gish party, but I suppose it's better than never

No, it's not. I'm not sure where you got this idea that a Wizard4/Fighter1 should be anything but a Wizard4, but Gishes don't come into their own until mid-levels. That's the penalty for multi classing.

Before polymorph, you still have access to stuff like Bite of the Wererat (for finesse fighters), Alter Self, Shivering Touch, Create Magic Tattoo, Fist of Stone, Blood Wind, etc. You've got Arcane Strike, you've got your regular feats, you've got utility spells …

[Ziegander]

So your problem is that 3rd level casters aren't effective at both casting and melee? Ah.

I'm not sure you understand my meaning.


No, it's not. I'm not sure where you got this idea, but Gishes don't come into their own until mid-levels. That's the penalty for multi classing.

Maybe I'm using the term wrong. Originally it came from multiclassed Githyanki Fighter/Wizards, yes, but as far as I understood it, it has become shorthand for any character that uses both magic and weapons to noticeable effect in combat encounters.

And yes, if the gish doesn't fight as well as a Fighter, then it's pretty god-awful at fighting. I don't know if you're aware, but Fighters aren't particularly "good" at fighting. I don't expect a Wizard to fight at that level and be as optimal with his other "arcana" as a generalist God Wizard, of course not, he has to use some of his spells to be decent at hitting stuff in the face. But if by "effective gish" you mean on par with a Core Paladin, then, yes, that's really ****ty and a total failure of a character.


Before polymorph, you still have access to stuff like Bite of the Wererat (for finesse fighters), Alter Self, Shivering Touch, Create Magic Tattoo, Fist of Stone, Blood Wind, etc. You've got Arcane Strike, you've got your regular feats, you've got utility spells …

Yes, many of those are decent options at lower levels. What I'm asking for is a point-for-point explanation on how to use resources like this to perform at a reasonable level, preferably starting as early as 3rd level (or even before) in both fighting and casting. I'm asking if it's even possible. That's why we're here. Because I don't know how to do it, so I want someone to show me. Show me some numbers, give me some viable strategies, something other than, "Yeah, idiot, you just cast Mage Armor. It lasts for 4 hours, duh."

[Karnith]

There's also a few spells that act as an attack. I can't remember the name but I know there's one where you throw your weapon and hit every enemy within a 60ft line.
Whirling Blade (SpC, p. 238). Some other good low-level gish spells that haven't been mentioned are Bladeweave (SpC, p. 31) and Blood Wind (SpC, pp. 33-34), though I guess the former fails the "not a swift-action spell" part of the test.

Also, yeah, few gishes work at low (particularly 3 and under) levels. Duskblades, Psychic Warriors, and Mystic Rangers do, but they aren't full casters and are fairly self-explanatory. Most multiclass gish builds don't get started until at least level 7 or so, when you can actually get into PrCs and start having respectable casting and BAB.

[infomatic]

So what class/level are we talking? Wizard? Bard?

As a 3rd level wizard2/fighter1? You're right, you're not going to be effective. (And you shouldn't even level that way, b/c you're better off getting as far into Wizard as you can before sacrificing caster levels). You aren't a fighter at all; you're a wizard who has put off graduate school to slum around Europe for a bit.

Leveling fighter/mages (or rogue/mages) is painful until you get to level 10 or so. That's why early-entry shenanigans are so popular, and why WOTC kept tinkering with stuff like the Beguiler and Duskblade.

[nedz]

Pre-buffing is certainly not a guaranteed thing, even in mid-to-high levels. And most combats are over in 3 or so rounds, so wasting a round to buff yourself is basically failure unless you utterly take over the encounter on those last two rounds. I don't see that happening with a gish, especially without Persist/Quicken.

The problem may well be your style of gaming. I'm not saying that you are doing it wrong, but rocket tag is not conducive to buffing — and therefore gishes.

Are all of your encounters meeting engagements ? Are they all ambushes ? If so your scouts are either not doing a very good job, or your DM is running the game in a certain way which precludes them functioning and therefore you having enough rounds to buff.

[Ziegander]

So what class/level are we talking? Wizard? Bard?

As a 3rd level wizard2/fighter1? You're right, you're not going to be effective. (And you shouldn't even level that way, b/c you're better off getting as far into Wizard as you can before sacrificing caster levels).

Well, that's the point. That's what I've been trying to find out. Obviously Fighter 1/Wizard 1 is not that great of a 2nd level character. So, what do you do to gish it up at low levels, or even at mid levels without the most obvious gishing tricks? I ask because, with Persist it's not too hard to make an effective, if not super-effective Cleric gish. But not every build can easily access Persistent Spell, especially not in early levels.

I'm asking the forum how I would go about building the character. I don't know what class/level we're talking about, which is why I'm asking. Like, is it even possible to gish with a 3rd level Wizard on a level that's anywhere close to a DMM Persist Cleric? If it is, I'm asking how to do that. Could a Bard gish well in the level 1-5 range, or is that something a Bard can't really do until mid-to-high levels? How would a Druid go about gishing without abusing Wild Shape (or can he)?

[Stux]

Like, is it even possible to gish with a 3rd level Wizard on a level that's anywhere close to a DMM Persist Cleric?

Part of the issue may be that your baseline for performance is way higher than you could expect to get out of a gish build. I'm just basing this on how much you are referring to DMM Persist, which a lot of people consider to be verging in to cheese territory.

(aside: how is a Cleric getting DMM Persist online at level 3 anyway?)

Anyway, gishes are about compromise, its basically the whole point. Jack of all trades master of none. And dominating in combat is just one of those 'trades' you are likely not going to be a master of.

[infomatic]

Bards? Sure, assuming you've got enough splatbooks, because you're not relying on spells; you're optimizing Bardic Song (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?185372-Inspire-Courage-Optimization).

Bard4 with Song of the Heart, Dragonfire inspiration and either a Crystal Echoblade or Badge of Valor, and casting Inspirational Boost, will have quite a good bit of damage.

Druids are even easier. Pick up the UA variants (Wis to AC, etc.). Have spikes cast on your Club, use Bite of the ___, Barkskin, Entangling Staff, etc. I've played a Gish-style self-buffing Druid at 10 and was very effective, and it would've worked fine earlier too.

[herrhauptmann]

Like, is it even possible to gish with a 3rd level Wizard on a level that's anywhere close to a DMM Persist Cleric? If it is, I'm asking how to do that.

No. It's not.
Properly built gishes are tier 2. That CL hit is a real pain and drops you from Tier 1. Clerics are Tier 1.
DMM:Anything clerics are stronger than regular clerics. (At low levels this isn't very obvious since the best DMM:persist spells don't arrive until you're actually gishing at level 6 or higher. So an intelligent use of cleric spells/turnings will prove more powerful than a DMM cleric.)

Here's how you gish at low levels:
You play a wizard/sorcerer who has the low level buffing spells of the gish like Bulls Strength. You buff the party melee with your spells. You can use your auto-win spells like color spray and sleep, but those spells are going to become useless by the time you start gishing well. (Low level, you'll have a CL hit by then, and the spells often have a HD cap on their effects)
You carry a sword/axe/mace, but you're rarely going to use it. Not unless you're out of spells and menaced by a goblin.

All that? Still not as powerful as a normal cleric because you're skipping the best spells of your class/level to learn gishing ones. So it's going to be even less powerful than a DMM Cleric, who is already more powerful than a regular cleric.

My advice to you?
Just play a gish if you want to. Don't try to measure your power on an absolute scale against a TO build. Don't even try to measure your power on a relative scale with your party members.

[Karnith]

(aside: how is a Cleric getting DMM Persist online at level 3 anyway?)
Being a Human or a Strongheart Halfling, taking the Planning domain, taking flaws, being a Naenhoon Illumian and taking DMM later; there are several ways to get a DMM engine running pretty early.

You generally aren't going to be Nightstick stacking at level 3, though, so the number of DMM: Persisted buffs you're going to have on you is probably going to be limited.

[Stux]

Being a Human or a Strongheart Halfling, taking the Planning domain, taking flaws, being a Naenhoon Illumian and taking DMM later; there are several ways to get a DMM engine running pretty early.

You generally aren't going to be Nightstick stacking at level 3, though, so the number of DMM: Persisted buffs you're going to have on you is probably going to be fairly limited.

See this is what I mean about a performance baseline.

The question seems to be 'can I achieve the thing that these two abilities achieve really well without using these two abilities?'. The answer is no, because the reason those two abilities (quicken and persist) get talked about so much and so highly is that when they are built around properly they are way above the power baseline for most else of what is available.

[Ziegander]

Part of the issue may be that your baseline for performance is way higher than you could expect to get out of a gish build. I'm just basing this on how much you are referring to DMM Persist, which a lot of people consider to be verging in to cheese territory.

(aside: how is a Cleric getting DMM Persist online at level 3 anyway?)

The reason I am bringing up DMM Persist at all is because you don't lose action advantage when using it. You have your buffs up when you need them (ie: all the time) and you can spend a round to cast a non-buff without losing combat efficacy.

A Cleric can get DMM Persist online as early as 1st level, even without flaws, if he truly wishes (Human Cleric with the Planning and Undeath Domains), but it's still not amazing because there's just not a lot of stuff to Persist. It can be fun though.


Properly built gishes are tier 2.

I would be totally fine with playing at a Tier 3 level, if it's possible.


Here's how you gish at low levels:
You play a wizard/sorcerer who has the low level buffing spells of the gish like Bulls Strength. You buff the party melee with your spells. You can use your auto-win spells like color spray and sleep, but those spells are going to become useless by the time you start gishing well. (Low level, you'll have a CL hit by then, and the spells often have a HD cap on their effects)
You carry a sword/axe/mace, but you're rarely going to use it. Not unless you're out of spells and menaced by a goblin.

Sounds like you're not a gish at all. You're not fighting things, or if you do, you're worse at it than a Rogue that can't use Sneak Attack. I'm not sure I'm willing to completely throw in the towel and accept that gishing is altogether impossible at low levels just yet.

[ericgrau]

Hour/level buffs extended to 24 hours. Open fights with a crowd control spell and then use melee damage on rounds 2+.

[lumberingmenace]

Look up battle sorcerer on d and tools. Its a sturdy concept for a spell sword type character. You sacrafice 1 spell per day and 1 spell known whenever you level up but you get a d8 hd and the bab progression of a cleric. After that you just pick the appropriate spells to self buff and sprinkle in a little evocation for ranged attacks. True strike, magic weapon, shield, mage armor, cats grace, bulls strength for improved martial prowess. Then you have say... teleport, fly, fireball, lighting bolt, and magic missile to have that caster flavor. Not op'd to the point of dm frustration but you can fight in whatever manner fits your mood that encounter