3.5 PHB rogue question

[kroonermanblack]

For anyone who say the previous post I'm still plodding through character stuff, and I have a question:

Do rogues realistically 'have' to take Two weapon stuff, or can one be tolerably useful with something like just a keen rapier? This is, right now, a PHB1 only game, so options are interestingly limited, and I've never really liked dual wield honestly. I'd rather use a single good weapon than two, if I can.

[Callin]

Single weapon can be fine in my opinion. Use of a Mithril Buckler when you can afford it is a nice little bump in defense and defensive enchants. Can still hold and use a wand in the same hand (UMD) or at the lower levels keep a dagger there for throwing if needed.

[Particle_Man]

It frees up your feats for other stuff, which is nice. I did a weapon and buckler rogue and did just fine (I focused hard on being the locks and traps guy, so that is where my feats went, but you could focus in other directions).

[Firechanter]

Yeah well, it's a mixed bag.
The point about TWF is: it is only useful if you get lots of bonus damage. Who gets tons of bonus damage? A Sneak Attacking Rogue. Thus, Rogues should be good at TWFing.
However, Rogues also have only medium BAB, so the TWF penalty hurts, plus you are investing feats.

What actually works pretty well (for a Core-centric game) is a Ranger/Rogue multiclass. Ranger gives you TWF, BAB and doesn't hurt your skills very much. Also, you can take a Favoured Enemy that is immune to sneak attack and still be somewhat useful against such groups.
Rogue gives you Sneak Attack and, albeit delayed, special abilities like Crippling Strike (my favourite) or Defensive Roll (not bad either).

As a pure, single-classed Rogue, maybe take the first TWF feat but no more than that.

[Gwendol]

Core only rogue:

As I suggested previously, getting HiPS through Shadowdancer helps with triggering sneak attacks very much, and also avoid getting hit since you are and will continue to be fragile. The trouble with TWF will be to get opportunities to full attack. You will want to approach the mark hidden, full attack, then take a 5' step back and hide again, since if the target is still alive most of them will likely be able to kill you.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

The sneak attack doesn't get multiplied on a critical, so keen weapons don't help too much. Its like this: you can play anything you want, but don't expect to be useful in combat :smalltongue:

[Techwarrior]

Having played a core only pure class rogue from 1 to 19, I can tell you thatTwo Weapon Fighting is a good choice, but not the only one.

Having said this, UMD gives a rogue plenty of chances to want a hand free. Two Weapon Fighting is a good feat to take, but you should also try to stay versatile. Don't neglect a decent bow, which you should carry in hand at all times. Surprise rounds are a great chance to get a bow sneak attack. In core only, try to take it at first level along with Improved Initiative if you're human. The thing is, there aren't enough good feats in core for a rogue to go from 1-20 unless they do something weird. Two Weapon Fighting (1) Weapon Finesse (3) Quick Draw (6) Improved Two Weapon Fighting (9) Combat Reflexes (12) gets you to 12 only,and that's before Human and took some feats that some people just can't stand. Taking Improved Initiative is always ok, but that is the only stand out.

If you are going to plan for a one weapon build, don't dump strength. At all. You will seriouslywant the bonus damage. Make sure your weapon is One handed, not light or two handed, as you will want the option to two hands and the option to have an offhand (umd, thrown weapons, etc) I recommend a Morningstar or Shortspear. Look into Deflect Arrows and using a buckler. The Combat Expertise feat and/or Power Attack can be useful if you have the to hit. A one handed rogue can be really survivable if you try, while still being a legitimate threat damage wise.

[Popertop]

Also, don't count out specialty equipment.

If your DM will let you, the Sword of Subtlety is in the SRD. Normally +1 to attack and damage, but if you are making sneak attacks with it, it gives you +4 attack and damage. Pretty handy to pile that onto a two-weapon attack.


The ranger idea to give more BAB and Favored Enemy to help with sneak attack immune baddies is also a great idea, but there is a magic ammunition you can use with that shortbow to take care of Undead and Constructs: Slaying Arrows. It mentions in the item description that creatures normally exempt from Fort saves still have to make one, and its a DC 20, if they fail they are instantly destroyed. Pretty sweet, and they are hella cheap too, only 2,282 gp. All around Slaying Arrows are the best thing I've found for a rogue to combat Undead and Constructs with.

Another thing you could do is get a backup weapon with +1 and Bane of a sneak attack immune creature type. If you can't get slaying arrows, a +1 Undead Bane and Construct Bane adamantine mace is a very good backup. You can even throw Disrupting on there if you are feeling particularly cheeky.


Yet another option is a Spell-storing weapon. Really cheap enchantment (+1) that can really give you some great damage output, as you can release the stored spell as a free action on your target if you hit. I'd only recommend this if you end up with a strong caster in your party, since in core you won't really be able to throw your own spells into it unless you go arcane trickster, which it looks like you won't be doing.

It can hold any targeted spell of 3rd level or lower, one at a time, and there are some real gems here for a rogue.

Cleric List:
Searing Light (anti-undead)
Dispel Magic (generally good, get rid of some buffs)
Blindness (they are denied their dex, so you can sneak attack)

Druid List:
Poison (Con damage is amazing, combine with a Wounding weapon)

Sorcerer/Wizard:
Hold Person (paralysis is always useful)
Vampiric Touch (temp hit points make you less squishy)


You could even attack yourself with it to get buffs like Fly, Haste, Invisibility, etc.


Also, if you are having trouble setting up sneak attacks, an old standby is a Ring of Blinking and Ghost Touch weapon.

[Flickerdart]

There aren't many useful feats for melee rogues in Core. Once you have Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, maybe Quick Draw, what are you going to take? Weapon Focus? After a while you might as well take TWF because there's nothing else to do.

[Chronos]

Everyone else here is posting good Plan Bs for if you should get into combat. As a rogue, though, your Plan A should be to avoid combat entirely. Sneak past the guards, disarm the traps, pick the locks, and strip the villain of the the macguffin and all of his equipment, and you'll ideally never have to roll initiative at all. And if you do, the combat will be considerably easier once the enemy's been robbed blind, and you'll have already contributed to the combat before it even begins.

[Gwendol]

Quite right: stay out of trouble, and obtaining HiPS is a great way to do that when invisibility doesn't work.
Also, don't forget your social skills, and knowledge local. Being able to make friends is actually better than magically dominating their minds in the long run.

[nedz]

There aren't many useful feats for melee rogues in Core. Once you have Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, maybe Quick Draw, what are you going to take? Weapon Focus? After a while you might as well take TWF because there's nothing else to do.

Stealthy


12346798

[ericgrau]

TWF is pretty suicidal for a fragile rogue, especially limited to the PHB. Plus with a -2 on top of medium BAB, often not staying up long enough to full attack, and paying for two weapons, it adds little if any damage. You're much better off with a masterwork buckler and a weapon. Or a bow. For a bow you win initiative and full attack sneak attack. Future rounds are trickier but greater invisibility, grease, blinding foes and so on to make foes flat-footed helps. Improved precise shot and a grappler helps too. Coordinate with your party. For the buckler you don't need a feat for proficiency because it has no armor check penalty. Improved feint is useful at low level, but it loses usefulness around level 10 or so. Depends what levels your campaign is starting and ending at, and if your DM allows retraining.

Most of all you are a combatant-skillmonkey and cannot expect to be as effective as a full combatant no matter which option you choose. Learn the skill rules thoroughly.

[infomatic]

TWF is pretty suicidal for a rogue, especially limited to the PHB...

Sad but often true, unless you've got:

a) A group built to keep you safe (i.e., a tripping fighter to prevent baddies from getting full attacks on you)
b) A Forgiving DM
c) High point buy (I already know you don't have this), For a rogue in melee, you always need high Con, plus high Dex for TWF, plus decent Cha for UMD (eventually) and you don't want penalties to Int or Wis, either.
d) Nontraditional TWF strategy (see below)

Ranger/Rogue is OK -- it saves you from having to put the 15 in Dex so you can do something like 16 Con and 14 Dex. PhaedrusXY had a decent core-only rogue build (RogueX/Ranger2/Fighter2 (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2643806) that focused on TWF/Rapid Shot mix and used thrown daggers whenever possible). Your first 3 levels are:


Rogue TWF
Ranger Track
Ranger Point Blank Shot Rapid Shot


You'll be praying a lot that first level. But note that you can stay at distance in your first round at least, with two daggers already drawn and throw them using TWF (and getting SA damage if you beat their initiative). After that, drawing is a move action and you won't get Quick draw 'til later.

ADDENDUM: And buy acid flasks for throwing. You can get SA damage on them too (again, in opening round at least).

Barring that, I'd consider a beefier rogue, using a two-handed reach weapon and either Barbarian or Ranger (TWF with Guisarme/Spiked Armor).

[Draz74]

If you do go with the Rogue/Ranger or Rogue/Fighter combination, I recommend you consider taking Improved Shield Bash and fighting with a spiked shield as your secondary weapon. Makes you a smidge less fragile. (I've had it work well in a Core-only game, although admittedly I was a Dwarf who had rolled very good stats all around, so that made me less fragile than normal.)

[Rubik]

TWF or not, make sure you make full use of UMD, scrolls and wands, and magical and mundane equipment -- the cheaper, the better. As noted, use spell storing weapons (a +1 spell storing sap is great for using for buffing, as are spell storing arrows for long-range debuffing).

Even cheap, mundane things and low level spells can be surprisingly effective if you use them well. Flasks of oil work as flammable Grease spells with no durations. Marbles are also great for acting similarly (albeit without the flaming potential). Tanglefoot bags and thunderstones are always useful for debuffing corporeal foes. A wand of Silent Image, even at CL 1, can be useful even into epic levels; a party hiding behind an illusory wall means you've just saved a lot of money on a casting of Mass Invisibility. Mage Hand via a hand of the mage necklace lets you purloin objects from a distance, allowing you to remain hidden while still acting at range. Fashion some pots fastened to the end of 10' poles with hinged lids designed to scoop up brown mold from a distance that you can then bottle up and use as splash grenades to ruin enemies who rely on fire, then search out patches of brown mold. The possibilities are endless.

Use your imagination and try to think outside the box. Never engage directly when you can ensure an easy victory by screwing over the enemy before they even know you're there.

Also, I'd suggest finding a longspear and a pair of gauntlets so you can hit enemies using reach while also being able to handle adjacent enemies. You can always drop the spear if you need to, but the less chance of retaliation against you, the better.

[broodax]

If you're looking for plan B's, keep in mind there is nothing stopping you from using the best weapon setup, just because you have bonus attack dice.

Get a reach weapon and wield it two-handed. Get your extra attacks from attacks of opportunity at your full bonus, rather than wasting feats to get penalties to your attacks.

If you aren't doing something to get pounce, etc., then you're not going to be full attacking that often anyway. If you have a strength bonus, all the better. Now you can flank more easily, actually hit things, do extra sneak attack damage, and won't be eating full attacks from the BBEG as often.

[Rubik]

Get a reach weapon and wield it two-handed. Get your extra attacks from attacks of opportunity at your full bonus, rather than wasting feats to get penalties to your attacks.IE, make sure to take Combat Reflexes, and take the opportunity to make as many attacks of opportunity as possible.

[Urpriest]

For anyone who say the previous post I'm still plodding through character stuff, and I have a question:

Do rogues realistically 'have' to take Two weapon stuff, or can one be tolerably useful with something like just a keen rapier? This is, right now, a PHB1 only game, so options are interestingly limited, and I've never really liked dual wield honestly. I'd rather use a single good weapon than two, if I can.

Keen is pretty useless for a core-only Rogue, unless you're going for a very high Str build.

At low levels, TWF is less useful. If you start out combat with a ranged weapon you'll be able to get a full attack plus potentially a surprise round with sneak attack, provided you beat at least someone in initiative. After that you can move into position and get an attack, and after that at low levels combat may well be over.

It's something you probably will want to pick up at the higher levels though.

[Seharvepernfan]

A rogue with a rapier is probably going to be a feinting expert, so consider those feats. Use a light shield in your off hand, not a buckler. You can still fire a wand from it (even attack roll ones), or hold an extra dagger or a potion or whatever. You'll definitely want to pump your AC up if you go this route, though, because standing out in the open as a rogue just is not a good idea. Enchant that shield, use Combat Expertise, get a defending rapier. Your attack bonus won't be so great, but then you'll be negating their dex, so there's that.

You'll want things like displacement, greater invisibility, blink - miss chance/not being targeted is generally better than AC.

Anyway, to add to what others are listing; power-attack with a strong rogue using a two-handed weapon is probably a better option than TWF. Cheaper, roughly the same attack bonus, better with standard action attacks, you can hold the weapon in one hand if you need to use another item.

All said, a TWF rogue who is optimized for that is going to out-do other rogues in damage, but you're giving up a lot to do it.

[Killer Angel]

Keen is pretty useless for a core-only Rogue, unless you're going for a very high Str build.

Pretty much, and at that point, probably is better to TWF, use 2 short sword, and go for improved critical.

[lumberingmenace]

The extra attacks are great and all but twf is a feat sponge to max out. Once you begin to have multiple attacks you increase your chances of landing multiple sneak attacks as it is. Why take more attacks with more negatives which takes feats to do when you can have less attacks with higher ar's the math tends to balance itself out to me. Leave twf to the rangers and the feattastic fighters, thats their gig.

[Seharvepernfan]

Keep in mind that rogues can use their special ability slots for feats, and you won't usually get Imp & Greater until you're in your teens anyway. Crippling Strike, Opportunist, Feat, Feat is what I'd do. I don't think Improved Evasion is really necessary, you're going to have a very high Reflex save anyway. The others are pretty meh, IMO.

[Firechanter]

Weapon enchants for Rogues: don't underestimate simple Enhancement bonuses. You want to Hit. And not get your GMW dispelled. :)

[Flickerdart]

A rogue with a rapier is probably going to be a feinting expert, so consider those feats.
Lolno. The only support for feinting in the PHB is Improved Feint, which requires Combat Expertise (useless) and only knocks the action down to a move action, so you're giving up an entire full attack to have a slim chance (Bluff vs. Sense Motive + BAB + the massive type penalties) of getting in a single melee sneak attack.

Feinting is an awful plan.

[kroonermanblack]

So out of curiousity, when someone says 'use a buckler' or 'use a light shield' does that mean take the prof feat, or just use it without the feat?

Right now I'm looking at a human rogue, with an interest in skills, doing a stat dist. like 8/16/14/14/10/12. I'd prefer to keep it just single weapon, or ranged, and have the viability to do pretty much anything I can think of in/out of combat aside from 'stab dude. Again. Again. Again.' Interested in maybe an alchemy kind of angle, throwing stuff like tanglefoot bags or jars of oil or marbles, as was suggested here.

Given that halflings get a bonus to thrown, is it mechanically worth it to swap races? Not really sure which feats to pick up either, point blank shot seems like a no brainer, if I decide I want to use bows, but then it's either twf, or...what, if I don't want to be a twf?

[Rubik]

So out of curiousity, when someone says 'use a buckler' or 'use a light shield' does that mean take the prof feat, or just use it without the feat?Proficiency in armors and shields doesn't matter a bit so long as there's no armor check penalty, so don't bother getting proficiency if you use a buckler, darkwood shield, or mithril chain shirt since there's no penalty for nonproficiency.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

So out of curiousity, when someone says 'use a buckler' or 'use a light shield' does that mean take the prof feat, or just use it without the feat?

Right now I'm looking at a human rogue, with an interest in skills, doing a stat dist. like 8/16/14/14/10/12. I'd prefer to keep it just single weapon, or ranged, and have the viability to do pretty much anything I can think of in/out of combat aside from 'stab dude. Again. Again. Again.' Interested in maybe an alchemy kind of angle, throwing stuff like tanglefoot bags or jars of oil or marbles, as was suggested here.

Given that halflings get a bonus to thrown, is it mechanically worth it to swap races? Not really sure which feats to pick up either, point blank shot seems like a no brainer, if I decide I want to use bows, but then it's either twf, or...what, if I don't want to be a twf?

You could go arcane trickster maybe. You can sneak attack with spells. Or you could build a halfling dagger thrower? Or something similar. Yep, you still want two weapon fighting. Sadly bows are good for rogues only if they have greater invisibility, other easy way to get hidden or for using them once at the first round then trowing it down and going melee. Sneak attack is hard to get without flanking.

[shylocke]

Single weapon is devastating. Rapier all the way

[Flickerdart]

Single weapon is devastating. Rapier all the way
Devastating to the user, maybe. Einhander is the worst combat style.

[Rubik]

Single weapon is devastating. Rapier all the wayUm... Even sword 'n board is better than faffing about with one weapon and nothing else, and that's considered one of the worst weapon styles available.

[infomatic]

Right now I'm looking at a human rogue, with an interest in skills, doing a stat dist. like 8/16/14/14/10/12. I'd prefer to keep it just single weapon, or ranged, and have the viability to do pretty much anything I can think of in/out of combat aside from 'stab dude. Again. Again. Again.' Interested in maybe an alchemy kind of angle, throwing stuff like tanglefoot bags or jars of oil or marbles, as was suggested here.

Given that halflings get a bonus to thrown, is it mechanically worth it to swap races?

Halfling is decent (That throwing build I linked to earlier assumed Halfling). Note that you get a penalty to thrown damage w/low strength, though.

A single weapon is fine, but use both hands. There is no mechanical advantage, at all, for a one-handed weapon and nothing else. Using both hands gives you 1.5xStr to Damage (which means you want a 14 str if you can).

As several people have suggested, Longspear + Spiked Gauntlets is a much better option. You keep the baddies a bit farther away, you can attack from behind your front-line fighters, and you have a close-up weapon already in hand.

Even if you went with that TWF/Throwing build above, I'd suggest Keeping the longspear/gauntlet combo for starters. Your battle strategy would go something like this.

Round 1: Win initiative or surprise. Start off with Acid Flasks. TWF attack with them, touch attacks to offset the TWF penalty, and get SA damage bonus.

Round 2: Move into position with longspear, hopefully flanking with a partner. Sneak-Attack again. Because you've got reach, if they try and close with you and attack, You'll get an AOO (and you still flank, so SA again).

Oh, and Tanglefoot bags are awesome, but expensive. You won't be able to afford enough of them to make it a regular strategy.

So key starter feats:

Option 1: Improved Init, Combat Reflexes
Option 2 (TWF/thrower): TWF, Improved Init or pbs.

Key Starter Skills: Tumble, Spot/Listen, Hide/MS, Search, Diplomacy or Bluff, UMD

[Killer Angel]

Single weapon is devastating. Rapier all the way

...if only you could wield the rapier in 2 hands. :smallamused:

[Particle_Man]

The only way I would see "single weapon and a free hand" as useful is if you frequently expect to be hit by ranged weapons that you could deflect with Deflect Arrows a lot. But otherwise, I would go with the buckler, or a two handed weapon, or just twf.

[Rubik]

The only way I would see "single weapon and a free hand" as useful is if you frequently expect to be hit by ranged weapons that you could deflect with Deflect Arrows a lot. But otherwise, I would go with the buckler, or a two handed weapon, or just twf.You *should* be able to just kick the arrows out of the air, meaning the Deflect Arrows feat is pretty darned stupid. You can make unarmed strikes with any bodily striking surface, after all.

[Hurnn]

Go with the rapier and buckler, if you can get them to allow it the rogue blade from savage species would be pretty amazing for you. +2 and a permanent blink effect, so you always get sneak attacks if they aren't immune, plus all the other blink stuff . http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm It is a bit pricey at 44k, but if you can talk them into a +1 version you would be more in the 27k range.

[ericgrau]

Feinting is useful at low level when you only get 1-2 attacks anyway. Also gives more hits by denying dex. Plus getting more sneak attacks is often more handy than getting more 1d6 damage attacks at a -5 penalty to hit. Again, depends on how high level the campaign starts and ends at.

Combat expertise OTOH is only a prerequisite. You're applying the same penalty to yourself that you are to your enemy. This only works to your advantage if you have a higher attack bonus and AC than your foe. In the opposite situation it makes things worse not better. Defending is likewise a wasted enchant. Power attack on top of medium BAB and bonus damage like sneak attack likewise makes your damage per round go down not up. You need more attack bonus not more damage.

For 8/16/14/14/10/12 Go 16 dex, 14 con, 14 str, 8 cha and int or wis could go either way. I kept str because hey, that equals half a die of sneak attack damage and it's more reliable. Also lets you delay weapon finesse a bit.

You can throw alchemical items and it's quite effective because they are touch attacks, but it always struck me as a bit silly to be able to hit vitals with a splash. Oh well.

You don't need improved initiative to win initiative and get sneak attack. You'll usually beat at least one foe with your high dex, if not multiple. You don't need to go first, you only need to not go last.

Sword and buckler feats: combat expertise (don't actually use it), improved feint, weapon finesse, weapon focus

Archer feats (shortbow, or elf + longbow): point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus, precise shot, improved initiative.

Thrower feats (halfling javelin + dart early to alchemical later): TWF, point blank shot, quick draw, rapid shot, far shot, improved initiative, precise shot, weapon focus (splash weapon). Egad, a couple fighter levels may be worth it. Mainly you want to get to rapid shot asap. There's no hurry until you finally get your ring of blinking or another reliable SA trigger. At that point you may want to skip straight to precise shot to sneak attack foes next to allies.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Actually, I had made a tank rogue once, but it wasn't core only, it was very sub optimal, and I would tank only when needed. Heavy wooden shield, 5 ranks on tumble, combat expertise and you should have an AC of too damn high when fighting defensively/total defense. So obviously hitting is not an option except if you hit flat footed tripped etc targets. Yep don't do that.

Also feint means that you won't full attack, which is terrible. It isn't viable as something you could do when you can't get full attack with flanking too, because when you are not flanking you want to use your move action to actually flank (so you do more dmg the next round) as opposed with using your move action to faint and still get only 1 SA without setting yourself more sneak attacks the next round.

[Firechanter]

Has anyone ever tried a Finesse build with a Spiked Chain?

Spiked Chain is the single best weapon in 3.5, because it's two-handed, gets bonuses to various special attack, and first and foremost can attack adjacent _and_ at reach. It's pretty much the only Exotic weapon (in Core) that is actually _worth_ a proficiency feat.
And it's finesseable! I usually use it in Str builds, but why not use it as a Rogue? Should be much easier to get into Flanking positions that way.

[Rubik]

Has anyone ever tried a Finesse build with a Spiked Chain?

Spiked Chain is the single best weapon in 3.5, because it's two-handed, gets bonuses to various special attack, and first and foremost can attack adjacent _and_ at reach. It's pretty much the only Exotic weapon (in Core) that is actually _worth_ a proficiency feat.
And it's finesseable! I usually use it in Str builds, but why not use it as a Rogue? Should be much easier to get into Flanking positions that way.Since most of the damage is dealt via sneak attack, guisarme and spiked gauntlet would be a better deal if you plan on multiclassing into something with martial weapon proficiency; otherwise, go with longspear and gauntlet. Then you get virtually the same benefits (minus just a little damage, and unless you have a really high Strength score, it's doubtful you'll be tripping or disarming anyway), and you won't waste a feat.

[Firechanter]

The difference being that Guisarme and Longspear cannot be finessed. I suggested the Spiked Chain because I am assuming low-ish Str and focus on Dex.

Of course, it's still the same old story: Dex builds get the shaft. You pay a ton of feats just to reach equity with a Str build without extra feats.

[Gwendol]

Tripping is a losing proposition for a rogue in general (lack of strength focus) but the other advantages of the spiked chain may be worth it. I just don't see them justifying the cost of a feat, at least not until later in the game.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

The problem with spiked chain is that while it 2handed, the rogue won't have enough str to make it matter - or enough BAB to power attack. At the same time most AoO's that aren't from a target you already flank won't be sneak attacks, and then the guy who you actually sneak attack with AoO, you would sneak attack him anyway with any weapon.

Also you could two weapon fight with spiked shield and light weapon, and get improved shield bash, or with the use of armor spikes.

[Firechanter]

Looks like a single-classed Rogue has not a lot of good options, then.

- Einhänder: one of your hands is just useless.
- Sword&Board: you don't have proficiency for the "Board" part. (Can be cirumvented with Mithral Buckler.)
- Two-handed: can't finesse; can't profit from 1,5x Str
- Spiked Chain: costs a feat
- TWF: feat intensive. Still, TWF without iteratives may be the best choice.

Anything else?

[nedz]

Archery
Knife throwing
Mounted Archery — I'm thinking hobbits and dogs here, or that sort of thing.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Multiclass with wizard and use sneak attack with spells. Still not a very good option, but you have spells, and you sneak attack energy dmg with ranged touch attacks which can be helpful. And obviously you go arcane trickster. Sadly practiced spellcaster isn't core.

[infomatic]

Oh, lord, Arcane Trickster is WAY painful in Core. I've played that one, too. Don't try it if you're leveling up.

And ray sneak attacks will work fine with any Rogue eventually — getting a Ray of Frost wand at some point, once you can reliably hit the Use Magic Device DC, is an easy way of getting sneak attacks in opening round.

I think the problem a lot of low-level core Rogues have is setting their dexterity too high in point-buy games. Strength isn't the dump stat a lot of players think it is.

[ericgrau]

As long as you're dipping anyway for a guisarme and spiked guantlet you can also pick up breastplate and go with a strength focused rogue rather than dex focus. Does a lot more damage too. 16 str, 14 dex, 14 con. Only 1 lost AC which you can fix later so you don't need to finesse. The -3 armor check penalty hurts skills a little but you can manage until you're able to get lighter armor with full AC.

Yeah arcane trickster is painful at low level. You can start straight wizard and then hey, you're a 5th level wizard with 3rds; forget the roguey stuff for now. That way you only need to survive 3 rogue levels. Some great spells even as your casting is falling behind are empowered ray of enfeeblement (sneak attack adds negative energy hp damage btw), mage armor, web, false life and sleet storm.

[Firechanter]

I find it kinda sad that a Strength Rogue seems to be the logical conclusion dictated by the system. That's not at all the mental image I associate with a Rogue.

Also, having lower Dex and wearing ACP armour is bad for your "Plan A" abilities, as someone in this thread put it.

[Flickerdart]

The problem is that your plan B is everyone else's plan A. You're not going to get to do that much sneaking around compared to combat, it's just how the game is set up.

However, STR focus in no way invalidates stealth. OP's stat array is 16/14/14/12/10/8, so going STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 8 just means he's going to have 1 less skill and 1 less point of AC than before. In exchange, he deals 6 points more damage per swing (and 4 more damage with a bow) and can carry way more loot.

By focusing on DEX as a tertiary stat, it won't be more than ~6 points behind by level 20, at which point a difference of 3 isn't really a difference at all.

[infomatic]

I find it kinda sad that a Strength Rogue seems to be the logical conclusion dictated by the system.

Keep in mind the OP's parameters. 28-point-buy, PHB-only, level 1. Talking melee.

So he's got no money for a Darkwood shield or buckler. He doesn't have access to swashbuckler. Can't take Weapon Finesse at level 1. Can't afford an 18 Dexterity (unless he goes halfling). Later on, TWF can work for him, but he's got to survive that long.

Personally, I like thug-rogues, but it's not the only option. A halfling thrower could work, even if you only use sneak-attack in the opening round. (With TWF penalties, 18 Dex and PBS, you'll be attacking at +4 — about as much as the Human fighter and good enough that 1 of your first attacks should hit most CR1 foes. Save the Acid for the bosses).

[Urpriest]

Keep in mind the OP's parameters. 28-point-buy, PHB-only, level 1. Talking melee.

So he's got no money for a Darkwood shield or buckler. He doesn't have access to swashbuckler. Can't take Weapon Finesse at level 1. Can't afford an 18 Dexterity (unless he goes halfling). Later on, TWF can work for him, but he's got to survive that long.

Personally, I like thug-rogues, but it's not the only option. A halfling thrower could work, even if you only use sneak-attack in the opening round. 2d3+2d6 damage will finish off a lot of monsters. (Save the Acid for the bosses).

Eh...at level 1 or 2, you can just go pure ranged with a high-Dex rogue. You get a surprise round, you win initiative, you get two attacks with Sneak Attack, and then combat is over because nobody has much in the way of hit points at that level. By level 3 when your enemies actually survive long enough that you need to melee, you can take Weapon Finesse.

[Gwendol]

Rogues should definitely go for ranged combat the first few levels! And try staying out of combat for the rest of the game. In core, the opportunistic mindset should be the norm: hide and stay out of trouble until you can snipe away, or strike and escape.

[kroonermanblack]

I kind of like the thug (strength) approach.

I'd like to keep Int highish (14?), I'm more interested in doing skill-monkey stuff in and out of game.

Could anyone elaborate on a strength rogue (again, PHB only), with a 28 point buy, keeping moderately high intel for skills? I'm fine with human/halfling.

[TuggyNE]

In Core, a flask rogue is not too bad, although it can be annoyingly pricey in early levels. Add TWF and you get a pretty decent ranged sneak attacker with built-in energy damage in large quantities, which may be relevant against e.g. trolls.

[Flickerdart]

I kind of like the thug (strength) approach.

I'd like to keep Int highish (14?), I'm more interested in doing skill-monkey stuff in and out of game.

Could anyone elaborate on a strength rogue (again, PHB only), with a 28 point buy, keeping moderately high intel for skills? I'm fine with human/halfling.
For Strength, you want a 2-handed weapon or a 1-handed weapon that can be wielded 2-handed, because it gives you 1.5*STR damage. You can still TWF (using armour spikes).

[Chronos]

Quoth Flickerdart:

The problem is that your plan B is everyone else's plan A. You're not going to get to do that much sneaking around compared to combat, it's just how the game is set up.
The essence of playing a rogue is that if you don't like how the game is set up, then you set it up a different way. When you say that "it's just how the game is set up", what that really means is that that's the way your opponents expect the game to be played. Which just makes it all the more effective when you don't.

And the absolute best rogue special ability is Skill Mastery. By tenth level (when you start getting special abilities), you're often in territory where a single failed skill check will kill you. Which means that the number you need to worry about is the lowest you can get on a skill check, not the average, which in turn means that Skill Mastery is effectively +9 to a bunch of your skills.

I agree that Improved Evasion isn't worth much, though. It only matters when you fail a Reflex save, which should be almost never.

[Flickerdart]

The essence of playing a rogue is that if you don't like how the game is set up, then you set it up a different way. When you say that "it's just how the game is set up", what that really means is that that's the way your opponents expect the game to be played. Which just makes it all the more effective when you don't.
Uh, no. The issue here is absolutely not your opponents. The issue is that your party members are going to get tired of sitting around while you and the DM play James Bond, and no amount of "setting it up" is going to help you.

[kroonermanblack]

Uh, no. The issue here is absolutely not your opponents. The issue is that your party members are going to get tired of sitting around while you and the DM play James Bond, and no amount of "setting it up" is going to help you.

Ya, I honestly don't have any real desire to do that. If it's germane to the run maybe I'd be fine with some simple sneak-and-stab, but I don't have the desire, intention, or interest, to sucker-punch all my co-players and DM like that. It's rude, and frankly bores the tits of me when other people do it.

I'm fine with (and would enjoy) some control/etc. aspects for the battlefield (which I think is more of 4E thing, aside from magic), but that would be inclusive of the rest of the party, rather than exclusive. Just like if we had some wizard or fighter who 1-man-show'ed the entire run, killed everything in 1 hit, before anyone else could get in range of it. It's boring.

Or scouting, etc. to benefit the rest of the party.

[infomatic]

For Strength, you want a 2-handed weapon or a 1-handed weapon that can be wielded 2-handed, because it gives you 1.5*STR damage. You can still TWF (using armour spikes).

Eventually armor spikes. They're martial weapons. I might take TWF anyway, simply because there are so few good feats a 1st level rogue qualifies for. You'd need something like 14/15/14/14/10/8 for that, otherwise 14/12/14/14/10/12 and wait for Rogue1/Ranger2.

You're going to want to multiclass into a high-BAB class at some point, for the extra HP, Fort. saves and other dip benefits.

(one query: Has anybody tried Cleave with a low-level rogue? I've never seen it but everything has such low HP at that level I can see them getting a lot of Killing Blows. Probably not worth it long-term, though.

(With that Int, you'll be able to keep a bunch of skills maxed, including some less-obvious ones like Handle Animal -- pick up a guard dog when you can to flank for you.)

[Flickerdart]

Eventually armor spikes. They're martial weapons.
Yeah, but Rogue is a 19-level class, so you might as well take a dip into something.

[kroonermanblack]

Interesting. Hadn't thought of the dog. I'm still new, what would you suggest as weapons? And what about a level 1-5 build, for those two stat piles, since it looks like I'm going to want to dip in other things.

[Hurnn]

Interesting. Hadn't thought of the dog. I'm still new, what would you suggest as weapons? And what about a level 1-5 build, for those two stat piles, since it looks like I'm going to want to dip in other things.


If you are core only and looking to grab feats to help you in combat you can't go wrong with 2 levels of fighter.

[ericgrau]

I kind of like the thug (strength) approach.

I'd like to keep Int highish (14?), I'm more interested in doing skill-monkey stuff in and out of game.

Could anyone elaborate on a strength rogue (again, PHB only), with a 28 point buy, keeping moderately high intel for skills? I'm fine with human/halfling.

For PHB only half-orc would be best for melee. But human would be the next best choice and it's slightly better for skills. Even with 2 more points per level, only slightly. Your 7th to 9th best skill won't be nearly as good as your first best skill. With 8+int skill points per level you can get plenty of skills regardless of int or race. Likewise even with a -3 ACP from breastplate you can still do a lot of skill stuff. Plus ACP doesn't apply to everything. At high level you can reduce the ACP with mithril and/or gloves of dexterity and/or a chain shirt.

Build would be rogue 1 / fighter 2 / rogue X. Guisarme + armor spikes. Feats would be combat expertise (don't actually use it), improved feint, improved trip, weapon focus (guisarme), combat reflexes. 16 str, 14 con, 14 dex, 13 int. Anything could work for wis and cha. If it's fixed stats rather than point buy, well stats get complicated. Round 1 move or charge, trip and sneak attack a foe who hasn't acted yet. If he looks hard to trip (high strength or size), then only sneak attack. Round 2+ flank/feint and trip + sneak attack. 5 foot step away from nearby foes when possible; the armor spikes are only a last resort.

Again TWF or TWF+THF is nice to fantasize about but between being far harder to setup both for sneak attacks and for the two different reaches, penalties to hit overall, penalties to hit on secondaries, lower value of later full attacks vs. earlier attacks, TWF dex requirements, paying for two weapons... ya you'll get far less damage. Go for reliable and consistent damage rather than a repeated fail that only works the way you fantasize about sometimes and even then often against foes too weak to matter.

[Techwarrior]

(one query: Has anybody tried Cleave with a low-level rogue? I've never seen it but everything has such low HP at that level I can see them getting a lot of Killing Blows. Probably not worth it long-term, though.

Yes I have. It was a core only "Oriental" game that planned to go from 1-5. I played a Strength based Human Rogue 4/Fighter 1 with the following feat loadout.
1: Rogue: Improved Initiative (1), Power Attack (H), Cleave (Flaw: Murky Eyed)
2: Rogue
3: Rogue: Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
4: Fighter: Weapon Focus (Guisarme)
5: Rogue

At levels 1-3 I could reliably partial charge and kill targets with a longspear, power attacking the bonus for charging meant that I did as well as the party Samurai (a fighter with a greatsword). At level 3 I pulled ahead damage-wise and never looked back. At 3rd level, most of the heavies also managed to soak the first hit, so cleaving through mooks became the goto. By level 5 the build was only good, but I was still a heavy-hitter and 6th level would have brought another sneak attack dice, making it even more viable.

My conclusion? It works well as a low level partial charge build, and is quite reliable with a flanking buddy, although I'd suggest grabbing Spiked Chain so the battle doesn't require as much movement as a normal reach weapon required.

Oh, also. Murky Eyed is real easy for the DM to use against you.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, but Rogue is a 19-level class, so you might as well take a dip into something.

Basically Rogue meshes well with Ranger. For example Ranger 2 / Rogue 10 and go from there. The two interesting Rogue Specials are Crippling Strike and Slippery Mind, which means 14 levels of Rogue all in all.
For a 20-level low op, Core-centric build, Ranger 6 / Rogue 14 might be a good idea. You end up with BAB +16, so you get 6 attacks per round with TWF, and +7d6 Sneak Attack. That's arguably better than 3 attacks +10d6.

But to repeat, this is pretty tame and low-op, so it depends on the group whether you'll do any good.

[Techwarrior]

Basically Rogue meshes well with Ranger. For example Ranger 2 / Rogue 10 and go from there. The two interesting Rogue Specials are Crippling Strike and Slippery Mind, which means 14 levels of Rogue all in all.
For a 20-level low op, Core-centric build, Ranger 6 / Rogue 14 might be a good idea. You end up with BAB +16, so you get 6 attacks per round with TWF, and +7d6 Sneak Attack. That's arguably better than 3 attacks +10d6.

But to repeat, this is pretty tame and low-op, so it depends on the group whether you'll do any good.

I'll agree with you on most of this, but I think you've vastly misevaluated the Rogue specials.

A core only Rogue has no business going near Slippery Mind. A second chance to say 'I failed my Will save' is not worth the special ability slot. A rogue/monk or cleric multiclass might be able to get a serviceable Will, but don't count on it. It is the rogue's lot in life to fail all the Will saves.

Oppurtunist is spectacular on a melee build, since flanking is how you're assumed to be generating SA. A free 1/round sneak attack of opportunity is well worth it.

Crippling Strike is a great protection/killer/all-around ability. It decreases opponents damage, to hit, and grapple. On a non strength opponent, it's also an easy kill ability as most of those have low double digit or less in Strength.

Skill Mastery is absolutely spectacular for any Rogue that doesn't spend the majority of the game in combat, and is still good even for them. Taking 10 as a high level Rogue typically means 'I beat the DC'

Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll are strange. Improved Evasion is useful (but probably still a second or third choice) for a character that didn't pump Dex into the stratosphere, and helps those melee Rogues survive on those sad little d6 hit dice. Defensive Roll however, is exactly the opposite. If you have a Reflex save of +yes then Defensive Roll becomes a great 1/day negate death card.

The best part is that if you can't find something useful (probably because you're some weird build in the middle) then all of those can be ignored for a Bonus Feat of your personal choosing: which is part of why Slippery Mind bites. Just take Iron Will.

[Firechanter]

Well, you may have a point with the Opportunist there, but on the other Specials I'm still not convinced. I'm pretty sure a reroll is statistically better than a +2, for example.
Hitting skill DCs has never been a problem for the Rogues I've played with.
Improved Evasion is just a waste, if you are still failing Ref saves at the levels you can get it, I'm pretty sure you're doing something wrong.
Defensive Roll sounds great, but in practice I've seen Rogues going under because they Defensive Rolled and then the secondary attack of the monster took them out anyway.

[nedz]

The re-roll is worth, on average, +2.5
So you're right, it's better than +2 :smallcool:

[infomatic]

Interesting. Hadn't thought of the dog. I'm still new, what would you suggest as weapons? And what about a level 1-5 build, for those two stat piles, since it looks like I'm going to want to dip in other things.


You'll definitely be dipping — Ftr2, Bbn2, Rgr 2 or 6 — they all work. Ranger has the most synergy, fighter the most feat flexibility, barbarian the most survivability.

Gear: Assuming avg 125 gp starting
Studded Leather Armor: 25
Longspear: 5 gp
Spiked Gauntlet: 5 gp
Sap: 1 gp
Dagger: 2gp
Sling/100 stones: 1 (You are using this only when you must)
Acid x2: Save for high-AC foes 20 gp

Optional: Guard Dog (25 gp) or Net (20 gp, Exotic weapon but touch attacks offset the penalty. It's an easy way to debuff foes.)

You'll still have about 40 gp for other gear (Thieves' Tools cost 30, but you could just skip that open doors with a crowbar instead).

As for 1-5 build, part of it depends on the rest of the party and what sort of monsters you're fighting. ericgrau's improved feint suggestion is an effective way for a rogue to get a solid chance at 1 Sneak Attack per round — without any help from comrades — as long as the opponent can be feinted. Against animals, vermin and other non humanoids it doesn't work nearly as well, and against natural Rogue nemeses like mindless undead it doesn't at all and the feat's totally wasted. (This is my chief problem with feint, as it is weak against foes the rogue already struggles with. In a campaign where you can avoid those foes, it's better.)

But if you've got a flanking partner, you've already got that sure-thing sneak attack and can focus on feats that can either be immediately effective in other situations (Even zombies drop to Cleave) or that you will be thankful for later (Techwarrior's Skill Focus: UMD gets you reliable wand usage 3 levels early, for example).

So for 14/12/14/14/10/12 (or 15/12/14/14/10/10, boost str at 4) you could go:
1 Power Attack/Cleave
3 Improved Init (lower dexterity than most rogues & you need to go first)

At 4/5, Dip into either:

Ranger 2 (for Track/TWF, Which you'll use for either Guisarme/armor spikes or, if you think you're getting hit too much, Sword/Spiked shield. Pick up improved shield bash at some point).

Barbarian 2 (for Rage/Fast movement). If, at some point in the campaign, SRD variants become available (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm), pick up Wolf Totem Barbarian for Improved Trip and the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian for extra attacks in rage.

[kpumphre]

Rogue spiked chain is a lot of fun. If you have good stats then you can power attack for extra damage along with sneak attacking.

[Techwarrior]

Well, you may have a point with the Opportunist there, but on the other Specials I'm still not convinced. I'm pretty sure a reroll is statistically better than a +2, for example.
Hitting skill DCs has never been a problem for the Rogues I've played with.
Improved Evasion is just a waste, if you are still failing Ref saves at the levels you can get it, I'm pretty sure you're doing something wrong.
Defensive Roll sounds great, but in practice I've seen Rogues going under because they Defensive Rolled and then the secondary attack of the monster took them out anyway.

I'll assume nedz is right with 2.5 as the number a reroll is worth. (I'd heard it was +5 somewhere) Slippery Mind works only on a failed save vs Enchantment. Most of the bad spells from this school are defeatable with Protection from Evil, a buff your party cleric can probably have up constantly by now. Other will saves include Phantasmal Killer (only effective on you), Illusions, and Glitterdust. Slippery Mind also requires you to be the caster's puppet for a round, whereas Iron Will doesn't, and is more applicable.

Improved Evasion is, as stated, alright on a non-dex based rogue. Take a CR 14 Mature Adult Black Dragon, breath weapon DC 26. You're only getting 9 from levels, 5 from dex (which is the best you're getting from a non-dex build at that level) where ate you getting enough to make your Reflex save good enough that Improved Evasion is worthless.

Defensive Roll is not something you use on a dragon's full attack, it's something you use on the Stone Giants full power attack charging scythe critical. You use it to gain a round to fix yourself, or have the Cleric fix you. If that's not the situation you're planning for, then Defensive Roll isn't the Special for you.

Skill Mastery isn't for you to get better at hitting the DC. It's to prevent things like a roll of 1 causing you to fail by 5 or more on a skill check.

[nedz]

+2.5 is the flat average increase, but it's a bit more pernicious than that.

If you have a good save then a save re-roll is good, but if your save is poor then it is a fairly poor option.

For example: If you need to roll a 2 to save, then a re-roll will work 95% of the time; but if you needed to roll a 20, then a re-roll will work only 5% of the time. Since these abilities are normally 1/day you are also more likely to need to use this ability if your save is poor, and thus run out.

So these abilities serve to make a good save better but only have a marginal effect on poor saves.

[Techwarrior]

+2.5 is the flat average increase, but it's a bit more pernicious than that.

If you have a good save then a save re-roll is good, but if your save is poor then it is a fairly poor option.

For example: If you need to roll a 2 to save, then a re-roll will work 95% of the time; but if you needed to roll a 20, then a re-roll will work only 5% of the time. Since these abilities are normally 1/day you are also more likely to need to use this ability if your save is poor, and thus run out.

So these abilities serve to make a good save better but only have a marginal effect on poor saves.

Yes. And what core 10+ Rogue has a Will save high enough to warrant the situational effect of Slippery Mind?

[kroonermanblack]

You'll definitely be dipping — Ftr2, Bbn2, Rgr 2 or 6 — they all work. Ranger has the most synergy, fighter the most feat flexibility, barbarian the most survivability.

Gear: Assuming avg 125 gp starting
Studded Leather Armor: 25
Longspear: 5 gp
Spiked Gauntlet: 5 gp
Sap: 1 gp
Dagger: 2gp
Sling/100 stones: 1 (You are using this only when you must)
Acid x2: Save for high-AC foes 20 gp

Optional: Guard Dog (25 gp) or Net (20 gp, Exotic weapon but touch attacks offset the penalty. It's an easy way to debuff foes.)

You'll still have about 40 gp for other gear (Thieves' Tools cost 30, but you could just skip that open doors with a crowbar instead).

As for 1-5 build, part of it depends on the rest of the party and what sort of monsters you're fighting. ericgrau's improved feint suggestion is an effective way for a rogue to get a solid chance at 1 Sneak Attack per round — without any help from comrades — as long as the opponent can be feinted. Against animals, vermin and other non humanoids it doesn't work nearly as well, and against natural Rogue nemeses like mindless undead it doesn't at all and the feat's totally wasted. (This is my chief problem with feint, as it is weak against foes the rogue already struggles with. In a campaign where you can avoid those foes, it's better.)

But if you've got a flanking partner, you've already got that sure-thing sneak attack and can focus on feats that can either be immediately effective in other situations (Even zombies drop to Cleave) or that you will be thankful for later (Techwarrior's Skill Focus: UMD gets you reliable wand usage 3 levels early, for example).

So for 14/12/14/14/10/12 (or 15/12/14/14/10/10, boost str at 4) you could go:
1 Power Attack/Cleave
3 Improved Init (lower dexterity than most rogues & you need to go first)

At 4/5, Dip into either:

Ranger 2 (for Track/TWF, Which you'll use for either Guisarme/armor spikes or, if you think you're getting hit too much, Sword/Spiked shield. Pick up improved shield bash at some point).

Barbarian 2 (for Rage/Fast movement). If, at some point in the campaign, SRD variants become available (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm), pick up Wolf Totem Barbarian for Improved Trip and the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian for extra attacks in rage.

Ok, so I'm having a noob day, and can't find a guard dog entry in the PHB (well, ok, I can find it in the TABLE, but no explanation of anything else other than I can buy one for 25g, which isn't helpful).

As for the armor and stones, does the -1 ACP and the -1 to attack not hurt those, wouldn't it be better to take leather (not studded) and sling bullets? Bullets are like 1 silver per 10 or something right?

And I'm still not entirely sure why everyone pairs the spiked gauntlet with this. Is it just to have a weapon in-hand in case I need to drop the longspear?

I'm going to assume I'll have the standard-ish complement of fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard. We have someone playing a non-melee cleric, and 3-4 others who haven't made choices yet, so it'll be a large party.

Crowbar question: it's just a +2 to a strength check right? Wouldn't it be better to have thieves tools as a +2 to a skill I've put some points in anyway? Or does no one take open locks?

All in all, this has been a pretty interesting discussion, and kind of makes me want to play a thug-type rogue. How would you actually play any of these, at levels 1-2-3?

[nedz]

Yes. And what core 10+ Rogue has a Will save high enough to warrant the situational effect of Slippery Mind?

Exactly, though I can understand him wanting to shore up this weakness — this isn't the way to do it.

[nedz]

Ok, so I'm having a noob day, and can't find a guard dog entry in the PHB (well, ok, I can find it in the TABLE, but no explanation of anything else other than I can buy one for 25g, which isn't helpful).

It's a Dog (or Riding dog, or even Wolf) which has been trained to Guard with the Handle Animal skill. You don't have to train them yourself, you can buy them ready trained or get someone else to train it for you.


And I'm still not entirely sure why everyone pairs the spiked gauntlet with this. Is it just to have a weapon in-hand in case I need to drop the longspear?
It's incase you need to attack someone but can't because of reach.

Crowbar question: it's just a +2 to a strength check right? Wouldn't it be better to have thieves tools as a +2 to a skill I've put some points in anyway? Or does no one take open locks?
Wizard can cast Knock from level 3. There are many spells which stomp all over your skills, you could run into a lot of this.

[Rubik]

It's in case you need to attack someone but can't because of reach.This. And you don't need to drop the spear; you can keep hold with one hand, after all.


Wizard can cast Knock from level 3. There are many spells which stomp all over your skills, you could run into a lot of this.Not many wizards will keep Knock memorized much. It's better to keep on a scroll for when the rogue just can't open a lock, but it is true that the spell shows up the skill by a massive margin.

[kroonermanblack]

It's a Dog (or Riding dog, or even Wolf) which has been trained to Guard with the Handle Animal skill. You don't have to train them yourself, you can buy them ready trained or get someone else to train it for you.


It's incase you need to attack someone but can't because of reach.

Wizard can cast Knock from level 3. There are many spells which stomp all over your skills, you could run into a lot of this.

Ah. So I'm assuming once I buy one it would basically function the same as an animal generated by a summon spell (aside from the magic duration/dispel/etc)?

And as for locks, does that mean it's entirely pointless to put points into it? Should I just sort of assume we will either be able to break down, magic into, or otherwise access stuff without having me pull out the lockpicks? Kinda fine by me I think, I'm not really interested in the 'hide and skulk' stereotypical thief, more of a skill user for other stuff, and I don't think there's anyone suited to the role in the PHB aside from a rogue.

[infomatic]

Not exactly -- you have to use handle animal skill for regular dogs, and they have to be taught tricks. Summon Monster is more fire-and-forget. The plus about regular dogs is that they're around all the time — can help you track, guard a camp while you're sleeping, and maybe give a bonus to Intimidate (That's more DM's call, but teach it "growl and look scary").

On open lock — it's handy early on, but most doors/chests can be opened with the application of enough hammers, and later Knock spells trump it.




As for the armor and stones, does the -1 ACP and the -1 to attack not hurt those, wouldn't it be better to take leather (not studded) and sling bullets? Bullets are like 1 silver per 10 or something right?


Sorry, I meant bullets. Short Bow works too but it's pricier.

As for the studded leather, it's meant to help bolster AC given your lower-than-usual rogue Dex. AC penalty doesn't apply to everything; but see if what it does hurt, you can't live without.