sneak attack rogue/cleric cheese, is it cheese or is it cheddar?

[Calak Jivan]

so as the title says. i am going rogue cleric for sneak attack chease
BUT, i want to know two things. 1. is this strong cheddar. and 2. is this legal?

so the build is this
{table=head] lvl | Class | feat | sneak attack | turning HD
1 | Rogue | weapon proficiency, point blank shot | 1d6 | 0
2 | sneak attack fighter | | 2d6 | 0
3 | cloistered cleric | zen archery | | 5
4 | (variant) rogue | precise shot | | 5
5 | skull clan hunter | | | 5
6 | skull clan hunter | sacred outlaw | 3d6 | 8
7 | skull clan hunter | | 4d6 | 8
8-20 | (variant) rogue | -unknown- | 5d6 - 10d6 | 9 - 20 [/table]

The premise
the idea was to make a amazing undead killer for my next campaign. (no idea if the campaign is going to even involve undead. no meta here)

the reasons i thought this may work well is because of skull clan hunter the rogue variant from UA for fighter feats [as going both melee and ranged is costly) while at the same time stacking those rogue levels with cleric levels for sneak attack and turning ability using the daring outlaw
and using skullclan hunter to give me guarenteed SA against undead, on every attack

AS IS. i know this if rules legal is fairly strong cheddar
what i want to know, is if this is an exception in my case simply because i want to be both competent in melee and ranged and really need those feats to compensate for To hit (due to STR being an almost mandatory dump. and the fact i have 3/4 BAB in all but 3 classes) as well as bolster turning.

PS. in the campagin we are in it is pretty high optimisation. not through the scales of invulerable. but high enough things generally die. also, we are playing with 4-6 players usually. dm is really good about the whole balancing act thing to. so optimisation is not cheesy in itself, and is in fact encouraged to a point so no one winds up being superman while the others are the detective.

[Firechanter]

Well, strictly by the rules I'm afraid it's not legal -- you cannot take the same class twice. You if you take the standard rogue, you can't take the feat rogue as well, except per houserule / DM approval.
Balance-wise certainly wouldn't be a problem.

Another little problem: the earliest you can get into Skullclan Hunter is level 6. You have to meet the requirements of a PrC _before_ taking the level to enter it.

What is "Sacred Outlaw"? I don't find it in the feat DB. If you mean Daring Outlaw, that one requires the Grace class feature, which you don't have unless you work in two levels of Swashbuckler.

Apart from those legal issues, I'm afraid your build is pretty messed up.
Firstly, I don't quite get what Weapon Proficiency feat you want to take with your first level.
Secondly, why are you taking Zen Archery? Skullclan Hunter doesn't progress Spellcasting and has no Wis synergy whatsoever, so you don't need more than 12 Wis (to get your 1st level Cleric bonus spell).

Also, if you are worried about feats, you can pick your Cleric domains to give you certain bonus feats. For instance, the Elf domain gives you Point Blank Shot.
But keep in mind that it's very hard to apply Sneak damage to Ranged attacks in 3.5! Basically only in a surprise round. It's really advisable to focus on _one_ combat style, and that should be one that allows you do apply Sneak Attack, so, melee.

It's an interesting build concept, and I'd be happy to help you work it out, but first you need to define what the character is supposed to _do_. =)

[Drachasor]

Well, this isn't a very strong combo as you've set it up. Not even a great undead killer, imho.

That said, what exactly does your group consider "high op"?

If Tome of Battle is allowed, I'd suggest Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Ravens_cry]

If you want to mix rogue and cleric, see about getting the Giant's Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9623145#post9623145) approved. It's a lot better than many of the alternatives.

[Calak Jivan]

Well, strictly by the rules I'm afraid it's not legal -- you cannot take the same class twice. You if you take the standard rogue, you can't take the feat rogue as well, except per houserule / DM approval.
Balance-wise certainly wouldn't be a problem.

okay, well this can be scrubbed by taking three levels in SA fighter rather then just one. and having the rest martial rogue. thanks for the info



Another little problem: the earliest you can get into Skullclan Hunter is level 6. You have to meet the requirements of a PrC _before_ taking the level to enter it.

including skill feats i do not think this is a problem. as it stands there is a bit of homebrew involved i forgot to account for, DM thinks skill feats are useless and therefor says if you want one, the skill gained is doubled.. but i would need to delay a feat.



What is "Sacred Outlaw"? I don't find it in the feat DB. If you mean Daring Outlaw, that one requires the Grace class feature, which you don't have unless you work in two levels of Swashbuckler.

sacred outlaw is a feat from dragon mag #357 if the usual places are telling me correctly.



Apart from those legal issues, I'm afraid your build is pretty messed up.
Firstly, I don't quite get what Weapon Proficiency feat you want to take with your first level.
Secondly, why are you taking Zen Archery? Skullclan Hunter doesn't progress Spellcasting and has no Wis synergy whatsoever, so you don't need more than 12 Wis (to get your 1st level Cleric bonus spell).

once again thanks for pointing out something i missed, its pretty late here and i have been awak for 36 hours. as it stands i was thinking turning is charisma based. so i would think i could remove zen archery in replace of a skill feat.

as per weapon proficiency, its for a homebrew rifle. kind of campaign specific but it is not preticularly vital to be build, just an exotic weapon which i will be using a bit for flavor.



But keep in mind that it's very hard to apply Sneak damage to Ranged attacks in 3.5! Basically only in a surprise round. It's really advisable to focus on _one_ combat style, and that should be one that allows you do apply Sneak Attack, so, melee.

the sneak attack damage is supposed to be hard to apply as per RAW. with the exception of undead, which is given by default on every single attack to undead per the 'skullclan hunter' 2nd level bonus 'divine strike'



It's an interesting build concept, and I'd be happy to help you work it out, but first you need to define what the character is supposed to _do_. =)

thanks a ton for helping me flesh this out, tell me. are there any recomendations you would make as far as changes, and with the modifications would you say its legal?



EDIT: didnt want to double post.

[Drachasor]

If you want to mix rogue and cleric, see about getting the Giant's Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9623145#post9623145) approved. It's a lot better than many of the alternatives.

Yes, this looks good.

[Firechanter]

Skullclan Hunter ain't a bad PrC, _in_ an Undead-heavy campaign. Of course if there won't be a significant amount of enemies of the necromantic persuasion, the whole character would be rather moot.
And also of course, Rogue isn't a very powerful base. Might want to use a stronger chassis, if this is supposed to be a "high op" game.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is really, really awesome, but also very MAD. The class also doesn't get any _specific_ boosts against Undead; on the contrary the whole point is to make more effective use out of those Turn Undead attempts. An RKV shines against Undead because he shines against everything.

[Drachasor]

Ruby Knight Vindicator is really, really awesome, but also very MAD. The class also doesn't get any _specific_ boosts against Undead; on the contrary the whole point is to make more effective use out of those Turn Undead attempts. An RKV shines against Undead because he shines against everything.

Kind of my point. An RKV would be better against undead and everything else. Probably more fun to play too.

[Calak Jivan]

Skullclan Hunter ain't a bad PrC, _in_ an Undead-heavy campaign. Of course if there won't be a significant amount of enemies of the necromantic persuasion, the whole character would be rather moot.
And also of course, Rogue isn't a very powerful base. Might want to use a stronger chassis, if this is supposed to be a "high op" game.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is really, really awesome, but also very MAD. The class also doesn't get any _specific_ boosts against Undead; on the contrary the whole point is to make more effective use out of those Turn Undead attempts. An RKV shines against Undead because he shines against everything.

fair enough. my friend is dnd 4 lyfe. he would know more then me about this

but im very into heavy rollplay as is the rest of our group. there is guarenteed to be at least SOME necromantic peoples. considering one of the PC's is a necromancer.

this is more for heavy optimisation in a fluff area. as it stands, im looking into taking sacred strike to make every sneak attack to undead D8s. as well

the idea was not to be turbo OP all over everyone, but be super damaging to undead.

The DM kind of plays off characters back storys as for campaign ideas, he is also very improv like so there is a good chance of being some undead. but i also want to be somewhat effective against other enemies. sneak attack seemed a good way to do this.

[Calak Jivan]

Kind of my point. An RKV would be better against undead and everything else. Probably more fun to play too.

that class would be amazing, if i was not going for a martial character
the idea was to mix turn undead with rogue, not cleric as a whole.

what i started out trying to do was model this character off of van helsing. a less then magical character [or at least the version of him thats most subscribed to any ways]


EDIT: so a more reasonable progression would be...

{table=head] lvl | Class | feat | sneak attack | turning HD
1 | SA fighter | weapon proficiency, point blank shot | 1d6 | 0
2 | SA fighter | | | 0
3 | cloistered cleric | skill focus (knowledge religion) | | 5
4 | SA fighter | | 2d6 | 5
5 | skull clan hunter | | | 5
6 | skull clan hunter | sacred outlaw | 3d6 | 8
7 | skull clan hunter | | 4d6 | 8
8-20 | (variant) rogue | -unknown- | 5d6 - 11d6 | 9 - 20 [/table]

[Firechanter]

Okay just so we're in the clear, by the RAW Skill Focus does _not_ count towards skill rank requirements, because the feat gives a bonus, not ranks. If you have houseruled that, okay, but even then it's inefficient. You're spending a precious feat to enter a PrC one level early -- not worth it imho.

Another question, do you use Fractional BAB? Cuz otherwise, all those dips are going to play merry hell on your attack bonus.

So, since you'll be using an Exotic Ranged weapon, you should also have a sidearm for melee, preferably with Weapon Finesse.

Moreover, screw Turning. I don't have that Dragon mag issue so I don't know what Sacred Outlaw does, but it appears to be boosting your TU level based on your SA dice?
Anyway, using Turn Undead to try turning Undead is for noobs. You can use those attempts as fuel for much better abilities.

As a first draft, I'd set up the build somewhat like this, assuming Fractional BAB:

Race: Human

Classes and feats:
1: Rogue - Feats: PBS, Precise Shot
2:Cloistered Cleric; trade domains for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Law Devotion.
3: Rogue - Feat: EWP
4: Rogue
5: Swordsage (level 1 & 2 maneuvers, level 1 Stance)
6: Skullclan Hunter; Feat (for example Craven, Weapon Finesse, or Rapid Reload or whatever)
7: Skullclan Hunter
8: Swordsage
9: Cloistered Cleric; Feat

If you use Fractional BAB, you can easily take Rogue instead of SA Fighter; at level 9 your BAB will be +7 vs +8, so no big deal. On the contrary, you will have more skill points, which you can use on Knowledge Skills, which will boost your attack _and_ damage via Knowledge Devotion.

The Swordsage level at 5 gives you stances, level 2 maneuvers from the start, and enough skill points to pump K:Religion to 8 ranks without using a Skill Focus, thanks to Able Learner.
At level 8 you can pick up another Swordsage level for access to level 3 maneuvers and stances -> pick Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack. You also get free Weapon Focuses and, just in case, Wis to AC in Light Armour.

The 2nd Cloistered Cleric level at 9 is there just to avoid Multiclass XP Penalties at later levels if you want to add additional Swordsage. So if you don't want to do that, but continue your Rogue progression, that's also fine.

As I said, you won't use your TU Attempts to turn undead. You'll use them to grant yourself Swift Action Movement and/or Attack or AC bonuses, so with just 1 rank in each relevant Knowledge skill you already come out ahead of the SA Fighter. So actually Knowledge:Religion _does_ make you more effective at fighting Undead, which is a lovely blend of fluff and crunch.

Also, let it go on record that this build is 100% street legal, with no need for houserules just to make it playable. ;)
If you don't play with Fractional BAB, I'd shuffle around the classes a bit as not to stack too many +0 levels early on.

Lastly, there's another PrC that blends Cleric and Rogue, the Shadowbane Stalker (CAd). Has 1/3 SA progression and some other goodies, so might be worth looking into, but you must be Lawful Good.

[Calak Jivan]

Okay just so we're in the clear, by the RAW Skill Focus does _not_ count towards skill rank requirements, because the feat gives a bonus, not ranks. If you have houseruled that, okay, but even then it's inefficient. You're spending a precious feat to enter a PrC one level early -- not worth it imho.

that is something i was very, very unaware of.
thank you for pointing that out, i will be a good player and ask my dm. he has done it for other players



Another question, do you use Fractional BAB? Cuz otherwise, all those dips are going to play merry hell on your attack bonus.

yeah, DM is down with the fractional BAB goodness.



So, since you'll be using an Exotic Ranged weapon, you should also have a sidearm for melee, preferably with Weapon Finesse.

yeah was looking over that



Moreover, screw Turning. I don't have that Dragon mag issue so I don't know what Sacred Outlaw does, but it appears to be boosting your TU level based on your SA dice?
Anyway, using Turn Undead to try turning Undead is for noobs. You can use those attempts as fuel for much better abilities.



Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Benefit: Your cleric and rogue levels stack for the purpose of determining your turning check and turning damage. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/4th-level rogue turns or rebukes undead as a 7th-level cleric.
Your cleric and rogue levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/4th-level rogue deals +4d6 points of damage on a successful sneak attack.




As a first draft, I'd set up the build somewhat like this, assuming Fractional BAB:

Race: Human

Classes and feats:
1: Rogue - Feats: PBS, Precise Shot
2:Cloistered Cleric; trade domains for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Law Devotion.
3: Rogue - Feat: EWP
4: Rogue
5: Swordsage (level 1 & 2 maneuvers, level 1 Stance)
6: Skullclan Hunter; Feat (for example Craven, Weapon Finesse, or Rapid Reload or whatever)
7: Skullclan Hunter
8: Swordsage
9: Cloistered Cleric; Feat

If you use Fractional BAB, you can easily take Rogue instead of SA Fighter; at level 9 your BAB will be +7 vs +8, so no big deal. On the contrary, you will have more skill points, which you can use on Knowledge Skills, which will boost your attack _and_ damage via Knowledge Devotion.

The Swordsage level at 5 gives you stances, level 2 maneuvers from the start, and enough skill points to pump K:Religion to 8 ranks without using a Skill Focus, thanks to Able Learner.
At level 8 you can pick up another Swordsage level for access to level 3 maneuvers and stances -> pick Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack. You also get free Weapon Focuses and, just in case, Wis to AC in Light Armour.

The 2nd Cloistered Cleric level at 9 is there just to avoid Multiclass XP Penalties at later levels if you want to add additional Swordsage. So if you don't want to do that, but continue your Rogue progression, that's also fine.

As I said, you won't use your TU Attempts to turn undead. You'll use them to grant yourself Swift Action Movement and/or Attack or AC bonuses, so with just 1 rank in each relevant Knowledge skill you already come out ahead of the SA Fighter. So actually Knowledge:Religion _does_ make you more effective at fighting Undead, which is a lovely blend of fluff and crunch.

Also, let it go on record that this build is 100% street legal, with no need for houserules just to make it playable. ;)
If you don't play with Fractional BAB, I'd shuffle around the classes a bit as not to stack too many +0 levels early on.

Lastly, there's another PrC that blends Cleric and Rogue, the Shadowbane Stalker (CAd). Has 1/3 SA progression and some other goodies, so might be worth looking into, but you must be Lawful Good.

idk about the DM, he had a fit about one of the characters taking like 6 or 7 classes in the last campaign. he also thinks multi class penalties are bull fudge and has discarded them completely. just reserves the right to say no to a build. though he knows what mine is about and seems okay with it.

guess i will wind up dropping skill focus for the 1 lvl early. your right, that does seem rather silly.

[Firechanter]

If your DM is uncomfortable about class dipping / multi-multiclassing, you can kick out the Swordsage; it's just gravy and not essential to the build.
Though we're currently looking at 3 base classes and 1 PrC, so in my opinion that's not too excessive for a mostly mundane character. Remind your DM that mundanes need multiclassing, full casters don't, and does he really want to promote playing full casters?

[Calak Jivan]

If your DM is uncomfortable about class dipping / multi-multiclassing, you can kick out the Swordsage; it's just gravy and not essential to the build.
Though we're currently looking at 3 base classes and 1 PrC, so in my opinion that's not too excessive for a mostly mundane character. Remind your DM that mundanes need multiclassing, full casters don't, and does he really want to promote playing full casters?


will do, i just want to keep the multi classing down. i could care about being 'good against everything' the character i want to play is not, and therefor i do not wish to build him that way. i WOULD like to build him to be reasonable against most things. and amazing against undead, which was the reasons for this build

ONCE AGAIN
thank you very much for helping me flush this build out, you have been a great help. also thanks for the recomendation of the other build. it looks pretty nice. not sure it fits the character though.

[Psyren]

If you want to mix rogue and cleric, see about getting the Giant's Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9623145#post9623145) approved. It's a lot better than many of the alternatives.

There's also a fairly decent official alternative in the form of the Shadowbane Stalker (CAdv).

[Ravens_cry]

There's also a fairly decent official alternative in the form of the Shadowbane Stalker (CAdv).
I've snuck a peak at that and, while good in its way, it doesn't make a straight synergy class quite the way Divine Trickster does.

[Psyren]

I've snuck a peak at that and, while good in its way, it doesn't make a straight synergy class quite the way Divine Trickster does.

Indeed it does not - but at least it's official 1st-party (some DMs care about that sort of thing.)

[Ravens_cry]

Indeed it does not - but at least it's official 1st-party (some DMs care about that sort of thing.)
I'd call the Giant unofficial first party, since he worked for the Wizards at one point. Personally, as a DM, I'd be a lot more easily persuaded to allow that compared to, say, the Dandi Wiki, or, indeed, most other homebrew.