Spells Without Saves

[KnotKnormal]

Currently running a game and my party decided it would be a good idea to all have similar classes, synergy and all. they all decided on rogue-ish classes so they pretty much all have ungodly reflex saves. this has put a huge pain for a lot of my casters. Are there any high damage spells that have either have just a Fort save, or no save at all? Not looking for insta-kill spells, want to hurt them bad, not kill them... right away.

[Uncle Pine]

If you're mainly interested in straight damage "spells", Kineticists and Psions in general are pretty good at dealing with Evasion users: in fact, the saving throws of the frost variants of the various "Energy X" powers are Fortitude saves instead of Reflex saves. However, do note that most of the time blasting is suboptimal: sometimes throwing a Dominate or two can be way better. Also, Will is a bad save for Rogues. :smallamused:

[Bronk]

Ray spells are usually just ranged touch attacks without saves. You might try spells with other types of saves too...

[fishyfishyfishy]

Try using rays if you're worried about damaging spells. The orb of x spells are good as well since the save associated with them doesn't negate the damage and usually isn't reflex. But don't be afraid to use standard spells like fireball either, your players want to feel powerful and effective. Sometimes it's nice to have an encounter or two that you dominate with ease just before the enemies start to catch on to your strategy and plan accordingly.

[Khedrac]

One of my favourite anti-evasion spells is Radiant Assault form the Spell Compendium, It's a 1d6/level AoE spell with a Will save...
Lower level is Parboil from Sandstorm - not only is it a Fort save but it can do intelligence damage too!

[watchwood]

Magic Missile is a reliable damage dealer. I do concur that you should have conventional reflex spells (fireball, etc) make appearances though, to make them feel that their high reflex saves are worthwhile.

[TheMonocleRogue]

Enervation or a spell with the Fell Drain metamagic feat can give negative levels with no save if they successfully hit their targets. Then again using negative levels on the party should be rationed since they tend to cause fits of rage for PCs that fail their save after 24 hours.

[Fouredged Sword]

Fell drain is fair game though, as you will never cause permanent level loss with it.

[Red Fel]

If you're open to psionics, I happen to like Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm). Single save, Fort negates. If they fail, it won't kill them...

... for 1d4 days. I'm sure they can find a Greater Restoration by then. It's only a 7th-level Cleric spell. They'll be fine. Right?

[KorbeltheReader]

Cloudkill. Fort save, 1d4 Con damage per round.

In fact, I believe the other damage-dealing conjuration cloud spells work similarly.

[captain fubar]

negitive levels from enervation may be a rather wide ranging and stackable debuff however they last to short a time for you to have to save vs them becoming permanint.

[(Un)Inspired]

Avasculate. So cool. Blow all their blood and organs out through their pores. If they fail their fortitude save then they're stunned also.

Mass Avasculate is its big brother that turns all the blood and organs that they lose into a blood web that traps the targets friends.

[Chronos]

There is no Mass Evasculate spell. You're thinking of Evascular Mass.

[(Un)Inspired]

Derp. You're right! I always thought it ways Avasculate, Mass; kinda like Aid, Mass.

[Thurbane]

The Warmage in our group hit a group of enemy Monks (i.e. Evasion) with a Sudden Empowered Ice Storm last session, worked quite well (no save).

Ice Storm isn't bad as a 3rd level Warmage spell, but as a 4th level Sorc/Wiz or Druid spell, is a little overpriced.

On the plus side, it can be Extended for double damage (assuming the enemy are still in the area).

[Baroncognito]

I quite like deafening song bolt.

[KnotKnormal]

thanks everyone for your help so far the spell list I'm building is awesome thus far. and no worries, i don't plan to get rid of spells like fireball, i do like to reward my players for working together and all of them being similar builds allows them to do that a lot. (They have redundancies for their redundancies, and they don't tell me what they are. combat very quickly turns into who can outsmart who. a lot of fun for them and i feel like i get time playing in my own campaign.)

[Joe the Rat]

If you're serious about the no-saves, toss in some Power Words. Someone is going to have a bad day.

[Der_DWSage]

Oddly enough, Beguilers offer an offensive answer here in the form of Whelm.

Whelming Blast is 1d6 per two levels to a max of 5d6, Mass Whelm is 1d6 per level up to 10d6, and it's all a will save. Nonlethal damage, but the Beguilers get a bunch of other goodies here to deal with your Roguish party.

[Arc_knight25]

Go all arts and crafts on them. Glitterdust. Will save to not be blind, minuses to there sneakiness.

Any of the Fog like spells will also mess up their ability to Sneak Attack. Stinking Cloud anyone?

In Pathfinder for Glitterdust, they get a save every round to become unblinded.

[KorbeltheReader]

Glitterdust is especially nice in this case because blinded creatures are denied their Dex to AC, and get a further -2, making your rays and other touch attacks much more likely to connect.