Strongest Weapon

[Azoth]

I come to the playground with a thought. What is the most damaging weapon that can be made pre-epic? The weapon's damage should be based solely on its own design and enchantments. For this thought exercise the wielder is irrelevant. Assume that regardless of the weapon that it's wielder will be proficient in its use and of an appropriate size to wield it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, on the non-magic side, base damage caps out at 8d6. It should be two handed to get 1.5*str bonus. Mix that with Katori resin and a high crit range weapon, and you get X4 from the resin.

So, Collosal Great Flachion made from Katori Resin

8d6, 18-20X4 threat range, 1.5*str to damage.

I would think Keen may work well. bumping us to 15-20X4, so a 30% chance of an extra 24d6+4.5*Str damage, AVG 8d6+1.5*Str per hit, assuming you confirm the crits. Not bad for a +1 enhancement.

After that, damage becomes fairly situational. Even things like undead counter most of that bonus damage. Maybe someone else can come in and fill in another +4 enhancement to spruce it up.

I would count on greater magic weapon CL 20 for a +5 base enhancement, and a ideal weapon crystal for the oponent (energy for base, greater undead for undead, to allow for crits)

[Mato]

Unarmed.

Damage
Monk related takes this weapon to 2d10, it's possible to obtain this with no to very little actual monk levels. The bones of li-peng, gauntlets of the talon and a monk's belt gives you fourteen levels of progression. a wand of greater mighty wallop takes this to 12d8, improved natural weapon takes for 16d8, and four ectoplasmic fists (only 2,000 per) takes this to 64d8. That's an average 288 damage per hit for base damage as a hardly optimized value, no other weapon in D&D comes close to this.

Enhancing
A necklace of natural weapons, gauntlet, battlefist, ward cetus, and arguably bracers of striking all pass their enhancements to your unarmed damage. Due to the cost scaling, two +2s are cheaper than a +3, four +2s are cheaper than a +4, and so on. This lets you split up and load various named enhancements onto your unarmed strike for a cheaper cost than if you bought a single weapon with the combined traits.

Additions
Many effects work on natural weapons and unarmed strikes. For instance a touch spell may be held indefinitely and discharges as part of a normal unarmed strike. A collar of venom means your unarmed attacks deliver poison and can greatly benefit from venomfire.

Theoretical potential
Ask your DM what he thinks would happen if you applied throwing and teleporting to your unarmed strike using the enhanceables from above.

[Chronos]

I don't think we're allowed to assume things like GMW or Amulet of Mighty Fists:

The weapon's damage should be based solely on its own design and enchantments.
That said, do we care at all about the to-hit chance? And should it be for a specific target, the ideal target for that weapon, or an average of some sort over all potential targets? A holy, fiendbane, chaotic outsider bane weapon will do great damage to a demon, but won't be useful against the Tarrasque.

[TuggyNE]

Unarmed.

Damage
Monk related takes this weapon to 2d10, it's possible to obtain this with no to very little actual monk levels. The bones of li-peng, gauntlets of the talon and a monk's belt gives you fourteen levels of progression. a wand of greater mighty wallop takes this to 12d8, improved natural weapon takes for 16d8, and four ectoplasmic fists (only 2,000 per) takes this to 64d8. That's an average 288 damage per hit for base damage as a hardly optimized value, no other weapon in D&D comes close to this.

Stacking size increases beyond the defined charts with four instances of the same effect is not what I would call "hardly optimized". :smallconfused:

[Metahuman1]

A valorous Lance for a Mounted character with Spirited Charge, Power Attack, and Shock Trooper, deals 8x the characters BAB on top of 1.5str and the damage die.

[Azoth]

The damage should be applicable against as many targets as possible. To hit is not something to be worried about. For this exercise all that matters is the damage the weapon can deal and that the damage comes solely from the weapon itself. This means no class features enhancing it, temporary buffs from spell casters/manifestors/infusions/ect., or outside items affecting it.

To further clarify: What is the most damaging combination of enchantments, materials, and templates that can be applied to a weapon while keeping the weapon from breaking the epic threshold? This damage should be applicable to most targets that the weapon can strike. (I.E. Human Bane may make a weapon more damaging than others against humans, but does not apply for the sake of calculation as most possible targets are not humans.)

[Skysaber]

Is "capable of being wielded by a medium character" part of the requirements?

[Gemini476]

Find a weapon with high base damage dice - Unarmed goes up to 2d10, so is probably the best for a Medium weapon.

A Colossal Monk could get 12d6 base damage for his fists, then.

Enchanting the unarmed strikes via Amulets of Natural Attacks (or a Scorpion Kama) can get you +5 Flaming Frost Shock Vicious Merciful Unarmed Strike.
All damage is non-lethal, but you do 15d6+5+1d6 fire+1d6 electricity+1d6 cold damage.
You also damage yourself for 1d6 damage every time you attack.
But hey, 18d6+5+1.5*Str damage!

However, all that requires you to be a Monk (or have 20 levels of Monk Unarmed Strikes). That's not really independant of wielders.


Now, a Styigian Ice +5 Flaming Frost Shock Vicious Merciful Colossal Greatsword does 8d6+5+2d6 cold+1d6 fire+1d6 electricity+1d6 (merciful)+2d6 (vicious). So 15d6+5+1.5*Str damage.

It also deals 1d6 damage to yourself on every attack and 1d6 damage to itself if you fail a DC 15 Reflex save, so be careful.

Oh wait, we don't really need that +5. So make it a Stygian Ice +1 Flaming Frost Shock Viscous Merciful Corrosive Psychokinetic Screaming Dessicating weapon.

That's +2d6 cold (Stygian Ice+Frost) +1d6 fire (Flaming) +1d6 electricity (Shocking) +1d6 acid (Corrosive) +1d6 (Merciful) +2d6 (Vicious) +1d4 sonic (Screaming) +1d4 force (Psychokinetic) +1d4 (Dessicating). Or, putting it all together, +8d6+3d4+1. So on a Greatsword that's 16d6+3d4+1+1.5*Str. (Average 64.5+1.5Str damage.)
Against plants Dessicating is +1d8 instead of +1d4, and against anything with immunity or resistance to one type of energy you lose damage. Because you are hitting with all types of energy.

And, yeah, you do 1d6 damage to yourself and need to save to not damage the weapon. And if you take the weapon anywhere warmer than 40 degrees fahrenheit then it starts taking damage, so get a Blue Ice sheath or something. Or enchant it so that it stays frozen; I'm sure there's some way to do that.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Although not 100% clear, shard weapons ate a non-magical way to get +2 and wounding on a weapon.

[Mato]

By changing a valorous collision morphing manyfanged dagger into a gauntlet, even without expanding on the size categories as the epic level handbook indicates is a real thing, it can deal up to 60d8+30 damage (300 on average).

If you refuse monk progression. Well I suppose you can take the second place runner up. Change it into a greatsword and deal 10d6+30 (65 on average). :smallfrown:

[Anxe]

Are we allowing siege weapons?

[Urpriest]

To clarify the intent, I think we should specify a wielder. Especially if the idea is to find a weapon that deals the most damage in a wielder-independent sense.

Let's posit that our wielder is Colossal (since "of an appropriate size to wield it" is in the OP, and there is no benefit to being smaller), has Str 10, and no damage-increasing feats. We can either assume it always hits, or assign a default hit ratio sans enhancement, depending on if the OP cares about that.

In terms of targets, should we assume "tofu", i.e. a block of hp with some sort of level-appropriate AC and no interesting immunities? Or should it be some sort of MM-average?

[TuggyNE]

By changing a valorous collision morphing manyfanged dagger into a gauntlet, even without expanding on the size categories as the epic level handbook indicates is a real thing

Size category extension is a real thing for epic dragons. Unless you are an epic dragon, sorry, that's not valid by RAW. :smallsigh:

[gorfnab]

Chicken Infested + Quick Draw + Greater Consumptive Field + Improved Unarmed Strike
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Vegitto-Kun/Forum/Chickensgivemestrength1.jpg

[INoKnowNames]

Chicken Infested + Quick Draw + Greater Consumptive Field + Improved Unarmed Strike

There is not enough "what the ****" to express my sentiments.

But yeah, I don't think one can get much better than massive crits with a Two Handed Weapon or the biggest and strongest unarmed strike possible.

BTW, 'sup, 'zoth!

[shylocke]

Lvl one fighter with 18 str and a scythe can kill a lvl 10 fghtr in one hit. Max DMG is over 100 with a double crit. 18d4+44

[Mato]

Chicken Infested + Quick Draw + Greater Consumptive Field + Improved Unarmed Strike
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Vegitto-Kun/Forum/Chickensgivemestrength1.jpgIs that from a webcomic? Where can I get more of it?

[Meth In a Mine]

I don't think I saw anyone mention a Colossal +5 X*-Burst Impact Minotaur Greathammer? I'm not quite sure how that would scale, but it has 19-20/x4 crit.
*X= as many of the following as I can fit on the weapon while keeping the impact property: Acidic burst, fiery burst, icy burst & shocking burst.

[Urpriest]

Is that from a webcomic? Where can I get more of it?

Seconded! I was considering doing a high-OP webcomic awhile back, but it never got off the ground. I'm curious who actually managed it.

[Feint's End]

Unarmed.

Damage
Monk related takes this weapon to 2d10, it's possible to obtain this with no to very little actual monk levels. The bones of li-peng, gauntlets of the talon and a monk's belt gives you fourteen levels of progression. a wand of greater mighty wallop takes this to 12d8, improved natural weapon takes for 16d8, and four ectoplasmic fists (only 2,000 per) takes this to 64d8. That's an average 288 damage per hit for base damage as a hardly optimized value, no other weapon in D&D comes close to this.

I'm sorry but what makes you think that you can apply ectoplasmatic fist more than once to increase size? I mean 64d8 are reachable but not the way you described it.

Namely you use Greater Mighty Wallop to get up to 12d8 and get 5 more size increases with ectoplasmatic fist, battlefist (needs strong arm graft on a kalashtar), Improved Natural Attack and Expansion^2.

Now slightly more on topic (Because all of the unarmed strike shenanigans require you to have classlevels and gear): I think you should define Colossal as the size cap since there are no "epic" size categories by RAW. So without that said I support the colossal minotaur greathammer.
8d6 damage with 19-20/x4 are hard to beat. Aside from Collision and Impact (for increased crit range) you could probably stack the stronger elemental enchantments on top of it.
Of the top of my head this is as strong as you will get just from a weapon.

[Snowbluff]

Elvencraft Longbows are my personal favorite. They are quarterstaves, so you can use a Monk's Decisive Strike with it.

Lances generally can do more damage, though.

[XmonkTad]

Well, on the non-magic side, base damage caps out at 8d6. It should be two handed to get 1.5*str bonus.

Aren't we forgetting the Colossal Sugliin? That should be 8d8 base damage. Doesn't have the critic range of the falchion though, and only 2x critic when it does.

Still, a silly sugliin could do good damage and not have to waste enchants getting past normally critic immune targets. Although you will have to answer a lot of questions about why you decided to enchant an antler-stick.

[Fouredged Sword]

Where does the weapon size increase chart go past 8D6? Is it in a supplement somewhere? Also, Katori Resin makes high crit RANGE better than high crit MULTIPLIER, as it will set the multiplier of ANY WEAPON to 4X.

[Sian]

a mountain that a 4-legged Hulking Hurler/War Hulk with massive strength throws ...

[Gemini476]

Colossal Minotaur Greathammer looks good - 8d6 19-20/x4 is pretty hard to beat.

What material adds the most damage? I'm going to assume Stygian Ice for +1d6 cold is the best bet.

As for enchantments... Vicious for +2d6 is an obvious choice, Impact for 17-20 crit range is nice (but I'd need to do the math a bit- +48d6/20 is an average of +8.4, so yeah it's probably the best +1 enchantment available.
...Is Collision (+2 for +5 damage) worth it? It'll get multiplied on crits, right, so that's +7.75 damage or slightly more than the average of 2d6 so yeah it's probably worth it. Assuming that you hit every time, that is.

So that's already a +1 Impact Vicious Collision weapon. So +5 in total right now.
Corrosive Shocking Flaming Frost Merciful is +5d6 for +5 enchantment, but I'm sure there are some better ones if you do the maths.
...Maybe the X Bursts are good? That's +1 for 12d10/20, so 3.3... Yeah, it's worse than just having the non-burst versions.

So tentatively a Colossal +1 Impact Collision Vicious Corrosive Shocking Flaming Frost Merciful Stygian Ice Greathorn Minotaur Hammer for a total of 8d6+5+7d6 17-20/x4 damage.
That's an average 68.825 damage, assuming that you always hit. I think. Does crit confirmation fail on a one?

[Fouredged Sword]

You can't get more than +5 worth of enhancements pre epic. You CAN get a +5 weapon with +5 worth of enhancements, but it caps out there.

[Mato]

I'm sorry but what makes you think that you can apply ectoplasmatic fist more than once to increase size?An ectoplasmatic fist improves your effective size by one category, technically this isn't a bonus. To which the frequently asked questions supplement provided by wizards of the coast has a similar question and the Sage suggested that a DM should limit stacking. This implies that without a DM to rule otherwise, and by RAW, it does indeed work. As as the posters before have refuting things and so aptly pointed out, RAW, not intent, stands in the GitP forums and therefor must be accepted.


So without that said I support the colossal minotaur greathammer. 8d6 damage with 19-20/x4 are hard to beat. Aside from Collision and Impact (for increased crit range) you could probably stack the stronger elementalAnd a kaorti resin colossal greatsword deals 8d6 with a 19-20/x4 crit as well.

A fullblade on the other hand with kaorti and colossal applied is 8d8 19-20/x4 so it deals more. A jovar on the other other hand with the same treatment is 8d6 and 18-20/x4, same damage but a larger critical range.

Also, still seeing a lot of flaming icy shocking vicious etc comments. As previously noted, adding morphing (allowed per the magic item compendium) to a manyfanged dagger allows you to benefit from the x4 damage trait with almost any light or one-handed weapon (a large dagger is one-handed). Due to the nature of this bonuses to damage yeild greater values than additional dice (dice are not multiplied). As an example a large +5 collision bloodfeeding razor sharp morphing keen kaorti resin manyfanged dagger is 4d6+84 18~20/x4 when all of it's charges are expended, and that's just the tip of the ice burg.

[papr_weezl8472]

You can't get more than +5 worth of enhancements pre epic. You CAN get a +5 weapon with +5 worth of enhancements, but it caps out there.

This is untrue, for the record; other than the requirement that a weapon have at least a +1 enhancement bonus, there is no limit on how much of a weapon's ability budget can be spent on other abilities.

[Feint's End]

An ectoplasmatic fist improves your effective size by one category, technically this isn't a bonus. To which the frequently asked questions supplement provided by wizards of the coast has a similar question and the Sage suggested that a DM should limit stacking. This implies that without a DM to rule otherwise, and by RAW, it does indeed work. As as the posters before have refuting things and so aptly pointed out, RAW, not intent, stands in the GitP forums and therefor must be accepted.

And a kaorti resin colossal greatsword deals 8d6 with a 19-20/x4 crit as well.

A fullblade on the other hand with kaorti and colossal applied is 8d8 19-20/x4 so it deals more. A jovar on the other other hand with the same treatment is 8d6 and 18-20/x4, same damage but a larger critical range.

Also, still seeing a lot of flaming icy shocking vicious etc comments. As previously noted, adding morphing (allowed per the magic item compendium) to a manyfanged dagger allows you to benefit from the x4 damage trait with almost any light or one-handed weapon (a large dagger is one-handed). Due to the nature of this bonuses to damage yeild greater values than additional dice (dice are not multiplied). As an example a large +5 collision bloodfeeding razor sharp morphing keen kaorti resin manyfanged dagger is 4d6+84 18~20/x4 when all of it's charges are expended, and that's just the tip of the ice burg.

No need to become snapy. Seems like I haven't read that part careful enough but could you give me a link or something which clarifies this? Would be much appreciated.

Hmm I haven't thought of kaorti resin. You are right about those weapons beating the Greathammer. The only question is I'd there is a better material damage wise than increased crit range but I doubt it.

Also the good thing about collision is, that it just stacks on top of the regular weapon damage and therefor doesn't have separate resistances or dr. And that makes it pretty amazing in my book.

[Feint's End]

An ectoplasmatic fist improves your effective size by one category, technically this isn't a bonus. To which the frequently asked questions supplement provided by wizards of the coast has a similar question and the Sage suggested that a DM should limit stacking. This implies that without a DM to rule otherwise, and by RAW, it does indeed work. As as the posters before have refuting things and so aptly pointed out, RAW, not intent, stands in the GitP forums and therefor must be accepted.

And a kaorti resin colossal greatsword deals 8d6 with a 19-20/x4 crit as well.

A fullblade on the other hand with kaorti and colossal applied is 8d8 19-20/x4 so it deals more. A jovar on the other other hand with the same treatment is 8d6 and 18-20/x4, same damage but a larger critical range.

Also, still seeing a lot of flaming icy shocking vicious etc comments. As previously noted, adding morphing (allowed per the magic item compendium) to a manyfanged dagger allows you to benefit from the x4 damage trait with almost any light or one-handed weapon (a large dagger is one-handed). Due to the nature of this bonuses to damage yeild greater values than additional dice (dice are not multiplied). As an example a large +5 collision bloodfeeding razor sharp morphing keen kaorti resin manyfanged dagger is 4d6+84 18~20/x4 when all of it's charges are expended, and that's just the tip of the ice burg.

No need to become snapy. Seems like I haven't read that part careful enough but could you give me a link or something which clarifies this? Would be much appreciated.

Hmm I haven't thought of kaorti resin. You are right about those weapons beating the Greathammer. The only question is I'd there is a better material damage wise than increased crit range but I doubt it.

Also the good thing about collision is, that it just stacks on top of the regular weapon damage and therefor doesn't have separate resistances or dr. And that makes it pretty amazing in my book.

[Mato]

could you give me a link or something which clarifies this? Would be much appreciated.

In addition, his effective size is increased by one category for the purpose of determining the damage of his unarmed attacks.

Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?
Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source. However, this does lead to an interesting question: Could a character use a nightstick and then grab a second nightstick to use? The Sage recommends Dungeon Masters limit the nightstick and similar items to one a day.Now I'm not sure what it means by "multiples" honestly, but the ioun stone does provide an unnamed bonus so per the rules compendium it doesn't stack. The night stick on the other hand says "gains four more uses" which is a bit closer to the fist's wording. And on that, the Sage runs off with the second part, ultimately concluding things with the DM should limit the nightstick and similar items rather than the rules already limit things so.

Obviously it pushes things into a more theoretical optimization realm since you're going against suggestions in favor of the more it's worded like this so I can do that, but with all these prove it by RAW points I see in GitP threads it doesn't appear I need to draw attention to that.

[papr_weezl8472]

Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples.
This means* that having multiples of the items in question confers no extra benefit beyond what a single one grants.


The Sage recommends Dungeon Masters limit the nightstick and similar items to one a day.
This refers* to the trick of grabbing one nightstick, using its extra turn uses, and then grabbing another fresh nightstick. I think the Playground has serious doubts about whether this would work anyway (if you've used your normal maximum+4 turn uses, holding a different nightstick doesn't change that you've used as many as you'r entitled to), but regardless, the Sage is talking* about using multiple copies of an item that increase ability uses/day in sequence, not at the same time.

*Disclaimer. I am not the Sage, so while I'm fairly confident here, I can't guarantee I'm correct.

[Rubik]

Unarmed.Yep!

Observe. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Chronos]

Rubic, how strong is that without all of the crystals, Necklaces of Natural Attack, and so on?

[Rubik]

Rubic, how strong is that without all of the crystals, Necklaces of Natural Attack, and so on?Depends on exactly what the "so on" you want removed is.

Basically, without any magic items, the build still retains its ridiculous hardness, adds its slam damage to its 17th level monk unarmed strike (plus some size boosts from Improved Natural attack for both unarmed strikes and slams and also gains a boost from 2-handing its unarmed strike), plus extra damage from its ACFs, gains an extra +1d8 bludgeoning from Hammer to every hit, retains a high number of attacks per round (basically just missing one from Haste, IIRC), and the bonuses from Item Familiar and Ancestral Relic. Oh, and it can deal any physical damage type (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing).