What do you guys think of my Martial Rogue/Human Paragon?

[Jiruharudo]

Greetings fellow Playgrounders!

I have watched you from afar putting fun, extreme and silly builds together on this forum. Kudos's for that! And now I would like to share with you my "very own" D&D character.

Recently my old DM started a new D&D campaign again and I really wanted to play a trapfinding skillmonkey rogue with neat little assist abilities for flavor, like tracking and appraise skills.

Stuff we get to use:
New characters have;
- 32 Point-Buy
- 27,000GP Starting Gold
- Common (Illuskan), plus language where one is from)

Allowed races are;
- All Core Races
- All +1LA Planetouched Races (Aasimar, Tiefling, Genasi)
- All overige Races uit onderstaande supplements in overleg
Nothing above +1LA and no Racial HD.

Allowed Supplements;
- Player's Handbook
- Player's Handbook 2
- Monster Manual 1-5
- Dungeon Master's Guide (Only PrC's)
- Complete Adventurer
- Complete Warrior
- Complete Scoundrel
- Complete Arcane
- Complete Divine
- Complete Champion
- Complete Mage
- Book of Exalted Deeds (Has to be discussed)
- Book of Vile Darkness (Has to be discussed)
- Libris Mortis (Has to be discussed)
- Races of Destiny
- Races of the Wild
- Races of Stone
- Races of the Dragon
- Dragon Magic
- Heroes of Horror
- Unearthed Arcana (no traits/flaws)
- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting

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Story:
I came up with the following char in the 'Forgotten Realms' setting:

Symon Seaworth, a man of humble origins from the city of Calimshan. Started of as a simple thug, dealing with the things thugs deal with. He also likes to gamble, and has won a ship this way -although the ships owner claimed him for a cheat. Therefore Symon retreated with his band of humble misfits to the city of Baldurs Gate with said ship, where he found protection under a Lord as a privateer. Till said his lord was bidden to investigate a mysterious temple found in the deep seas of the Sword Coast together with some other hired men and women (my party).

Symon comes with a 2 master ship called 'The Fortune' and a crew and an Orc cohort called Feng (DM made him up, all I know he has a strength of 25, which is ..nice) who wields a large warhammer.

Symon is a man who doesn't like to chew off then he can chew, unless the risk is worth it.
He is not one to hold a grudge, but will look for a way to turn bad things into his advantage. An example of this is when he was ambushed by bandits he had worked with in the past, where he smilingly asked how much they where getting paid for this and after the battle only 3 lived, he considered enlisting the one that was able to escape his bonds on his ship because he "saw potential in that one". He is also fair to his crew in payment, but not so much to his actual party members. Finding some daggers and apprising them less then they where worth, he sold them for a neat profit.

Symon came by his Elvish Courtblade by seeing it in action by a Elven compatriot. He made note and copied the Elf's style thinking he was just as nimble with it as any Elf.

He named the sword Lumbo, the Elven word for 'cloud' (not sure if this is true.. :P)
because of the electric and cold enchantments on it.

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Stats:
Chaotic Neutral Human

Martial Rogue (http://dndtools.eu/classes/rogue-variant/) 5 / Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) 3

Abscore (32 point buy)
Str. 16/Dex. 16/Con. 10/Int. 12/Wis. 8/Cha. 14
Abscore after items and +2 Ab from Human paragon
Str. 16/Dex. 22/Con. 10/Int. 12/Wis. 10/Cha. 16

AC 23
Fortitude +2 (ouch, I know..)
Reflex +11
Will +7 (huzzah for Force of Personality) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/force-of-personality--1175/)

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade/ Track/ Imp. Buckler defence/ Force of Personality/ Leadership/ Able Learner/ Weapon Finesse/ Combat Reflexes

Equipment:
Shocking Elven Courtblade +1
+12 Attack
1d10+4 Piercing/Slashing Damage, 1d6 Elect, 1d6 Cold
18-20 Critical
Weapon Crystal of Energy Assault (Cold), Lesser

Masterwork Composite Shortbow (str 3)
+12 Attack
1d6+3
x3 Critical
Range 70 ft

Mithral Chain Shirt +1
+5 Armor Bonus
+6 Maximum Dexterity
-- Check Penalty

Buckler +1
+2 Shield Bonus
-- Check Penalty

Gloves of Dexterity +2
Periapt of Wisdon +2
Cloak of Charisma +2
Periapt of health

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Please tell me what you think, and what you would've changed. Keep in mind I wasn't allowed to use Warblade which seems to be the option that keeps popping up in these Dex builds, and that it wasn't really meant to be a optimized build.

I hope to post some artwork soon..

Thank you for taking time to look at the build!

-Jiru

[Seharvepernfan]

I would have went with Power Attack before Improved Buckler Defense. You already don't have great Bab, I'm not sure I would use a buckler at all (though, admittedly, +3 AC for 4000gp is hard to beat). Does your guy have UMD? If so, drop the buckler and get a wand of Shield.

Most of the people here are going to say that your character isn't too good, mechanically, because you don't have good ways to deal damage. They don't consider Shocking/Frost to be good enhancements, and you don't have Power Attack. They also won't like your low con score, especially since you fight in melee (I suggest getting the "stamina" enhancement for your armor).

That said, in a game with people who don't optimize and with a DM who doesn't suck, you should do fine. Just remember, work on getting more damage and higher fort saves.

I like his concept, and I would like to see his skills.

[Jiruharudo]

Thanks for replying Seharvepernfan,

And I fully agree, my damage output isnt too good, but considering I often deal the most damage (1d10+5 + 2x1d6) of my party, we don't want to go overboard with optimizing. The DM will just put more monsters out way in any case. :P

I hoped to get some buffs for the fortitude yes, (my last Rogue Frederick died slowly of mummyrot..) but at least that shouldn't happen again with the Periapt of Heath on my side. Other suggestions on fortitude damage output would be neat. :)

Next lvl, I will consider powerattack.

[Pilo]

Don't bother with power attack, it does not work with finess.

I count 38 points buyed. A 16 cost 10 points and a 18 cost 16 points.

14, 16, 14, 12, 8, 14 will be a more correct 32points buy for a melee rogue, 2 more hp per level and a better fortitude save will help you to keep this boy alive.

[Isamu Dyson]

Where is the Martial Rogue variant class located?

[nedz]

Where is the Martial Rogue variant class located?

I presume it's the one in UA which gets Fighter feats instead of sneak ?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't bother with power attack, it does not work with finess.

Not true, it doesn't apply to most weapons that you would use with Weapon Finesse (light weapons, rapier), but using weapon finesse does not exclude the use of Power Attack. It's especially good with certain two-handed weapons that you can finesse, such as a Spiked Chain or in this case an Elven Courtblade. Power Attack would be a great choice for this character.


As for what I think of the build itself, I'd make some significant changes to just about everything.

You don't want an odd number of Martial Rogue levels, and it's not really worth taking more than four levels of it unless you're going single-classed for the special abilities. I'd switch your class levels to Martial Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 1/ Human Paragon 3, at the very least. Ideally you want to dip a class that your Human Paragon 2-3 spellcasting increase can benefit, such as Sorcerer. A Sorcerer dip in place of the 5th Martial Rogue level gives you the same BAB, and you can get spells without somatic components like Nerveskitter and Benign Transposition. Something like Martial Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Human Paragon 3 starting out would be ideal, then get the fourth Martial Rogue level and plan to take three or four levels of Dragon Devotee from Races of the Dragon afterward. At its 3rd level you'll have Sorcerer 4 spellcasting, which means you can swap out a 1st level spell for a different one. This level also happens to give you the ability to ignore the arcane spell failure of light armor when casting 0- and 1st-level spells, so you can swap in something like Shield and not worry about spell failure. Pick up Abjurant Champion in Complete Mage after that and you can cast Shield as a swift action, plus it will give you a higher AC bonus. Pick spells that improve your combat capabilities and give you tricks for outside of combat (Silent Image, Alarm).

Get rid of that Periapt of Wisdom, especially with Force of Personality. Get rid of the Buckler, and swap Improved Buckler Defense for Power Attack. Get Armbands of Might (MIC), and replace the Gloves of Dex with a +2 Dex added to the armbands per MIC p234. That way you can Power Attack for -2 to get +6 damage two-handed. Get rid of Track, you can buy a trained dog to do that for you. If this is a Forgotten Realms character, you'll want a regional feat, I'd recommend Mercantile Background from Player's Guide to Faerun, and say all of your equipment was purchased far enough apart to get everything for 75% of the normal cost. It's not normally available to someone from Calimshan, but you can say he was born to a merchant family in one of the regions it's available to, but they moved to Calimshan on a venture when he was very young but it didn't work out and they ended up too poor to return home. You reestablished your family's trade connections as an adult and it's served you well in offloading plunder at various ports.

Switch your Courtblade to a Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Courtblade, as well as switching your EWP feat to Kaorti Resin Courtblade. As a magic item it won't require any maintenance from a Kaorti, and it will have a natural 18-20/x4 critical. Nothing but the material it's made from will change, though resin weapons require a separate EWP feat from one for the same weapon made from any other material.

A Periapt of Health is a pretty bad item, considering its cost for your level. Take a look at the various categories of effects in this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), and keep in mind that everything you have should be at 75% cost due to Mercantile Background. Take a look at Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) for a whole bag of items that gives you plenty of tricks and something useful for just about any situation you'll find yourself in. You can add that +2 Cha to any item that occupies a head or shoulders/cloak slot per MIC p234, such as a Scout's Headband or Shadowy Diadem. Switch your armor to a Mithralmist Shirt in MIC.

[nedz]

Good advice but I'd be tempted to go with Beguiler rather than Sorcerer. It's Int based, which is better for skill points, and you get a wide selection of utility spells. It also has Trapfinding, so you can swap out Rogues Trapfinding for an ACF.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Good advice but I'd be tempted to go with Beguiler rather than Sorcerer. It's Int based, which is better for skill points, and you get a wide selection of utility spells. It also has Trapfinding, so you can swap out Rogues Trapfinding for an ACF.

Good point, but he already has Cha > Int, and Dragon Devotee gives him more Cha and Con, more bonus feats, and it specifically advances Sorcerer spellcasting. Plus with Sorcerer he can pick spells that make him better at fighting, which the Beguiler list is lacking.

[nedz]

True, but I didn't think that the stats were set in stone.

The Beguiler spells are good for Roguery though, especially if he's only going to level 4. This would give him only 3 x 1st and 1 x 2nd spells known as a Sorcerer — which is a big limitation. There are plenty of other PrCs he could take which would help combat and casting.

[Jiruharudo]

Hey guys, thanks for all the tips & tricks!

Seharvepernfan, Symons skills are many. Since he can pick his own skills because of Human paragon, and him beign a rogue, he COULD do everything. (but due to flavor and cheese I decided against that) And because he has able learner there are no cross class skills. I also gave him some "useless skills" for flavor reasons, like profession Sailor and Geography knowledge ..which I believe HAVE to take since I'm a captain on a ship.

His main skills are in unlocking/finding/disableling traps, survival and tumble to deal with him getting hit in the face too often due to his sad Con score.

Pilo, Power attack could work for me, and I made a mistake with the ABscore by not telling I added 2 to dex because of leveling. Whups :)

I agree with the con-score, but I wanted to play a guy who avoids the rough stuff, and dus isnt familiar with taking too many punches to the face, this is where h has Feng for. :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou, Much thanks for the large tank of intel.

I agree with you on the swashbuckler, this was a derp on my account, since I thought having 3 classes would get one XP penalties, but apparently this isn't so if chosen as human as fav class.. And my DM would not let me drop a lvl rogue for it. on the bright side ill prolly keep on lvling in rogue unless you guys can gimme a fitting and useful PrC for a deviant like Symon. :)

I'm going to have to stop you with dragon devote, since I wouldn't know why/how Symon would ever come to contact with that. Adding dragondblood/mounts etc always felt kinda cheesy to me. Also, I dont like playing spellcasters much, altthough they are most powerful, this is what bothers me about them. They can do anything on a whip ..but often only a few times, but I digress. I agree with you that it's a loss for the spellcaster list for Human Paragon.

Thanks for all the links to those neat-o items, I'll be sure to make use of them!

Isamu Dyson, it basically replaces the rogue sneak attack for fighter bonus feats (my Dm likes his undead settings, and feats can really flesh out the char IMO. :) And like nedz said, it's in the UA.

Nedz, yes though I dont like playing spellcasters much, beguiler HAS crossed my mind, but the martial rogue just makes for simpler playing style. Which I like. :)

Question!

Anyone know a neat PrC class for Symon when he gets to lvl 10/11?
Planning to take one more rogue lvl for some delicious skillpoints.

Not of these seem to fit the bill, though I'm willing to be convinced otherwise: Thief acrobat / Nightsong enforcer / Occult Slayer (Symon distrusts casters.)

Also, I have Mask ask my diety, because mask doesnt bother his followers much and is ok with taking what isnt yoursif you can. Valkur was also an option ..anyone have a fitting diety for Symon's chaotic neutralness? Blessings from the sea would be nice..

[Gwendol]

I suggest switching from Buckler to Dastana (Arms and Equipment Guide & Oriental Adventures) that you can enchant. It's cheaper than enchanting the shirt to +2 and doesn't impede your fighting or skills.

Don't put actual skill points in "useless" skills on account of flavor. Think about what you want to do with it and make sure they pay off one way or another. If it's just cosmetics, you can always handwave it.

Beguiler is really simple, go for it!

If you take swashbuckler (which looks like the right fit here, much more than thief acrobat or the other PrCs) could you argue that the feat Daring Outlaw will allow you to progress Martial Rogue (gain new feats) the same way you would have gained sneak attack had you stayed with the ordinary rogue?

If not, pick Swashbuckler and the ACF that trades grace for spell-like abilities.

[Seharvepernfan]

If multiclassing isn't a problem, I have to agree with the others that you ought to take a level of swashbuckler and one level of a casting class, like beguiler or sorcerer, just to better take advantage of your build.

The swashbuckler will almost be a level of martial rogue, in that your skills and and abilities are similar; you'll get a point of Bab, a boost to fort saves, and weapon finesse for free, freeing up a slot for power attack.

You want at least one level of beguiler or whatever, to take advantage of your human paragon levels granting additional casting levels; if you put in one level, you get three, so even if you don't plan on being a "caster", it's still a really good idea. I personally would go with beguiler, it will also be similar to a level of rogue; the bab is the same, your reflex will continue, your will will go up, the skills are similar, and the spells you get are spontaneously cast from a large list of known spells (and they are spells that a charismatic roguish type character can really make use of).