Freedom of Movement-immunity to grappling-

[Erberor]

So, why exactly does freedom of movement grant immunity of grappling? It seems particularly odd that such a spell could prevent a level 1 character from being eaten by a dragon. All the other benefits of the spell make sense, but the clause on automatically succeeding on checks to resist or escape grapples seems somewhat absurd.

[Deophaun]

Benign transposition can prevent a level 1 character from being eaten by a dragon, and that's a level 1 spell.

But yes, it is ridiculously powerful, as are most spells that allow casters to just say "No."

[eggynack]

Presumably because grappling impedes movement. You're pretty unlikely to get the effect at level one, given that freedom of movement is a 4th level spell, and that heart of water is a 3rd level spell, and that a ring of the effect costs 40,000 GP. It's an effect that gets a lot more absurd when you start considering the stuff that the spell doesn't explicitly say it works on. For example, is a forcecage a spell that impedes movement, and can you thus slip right through the force as though it were not there? Wonky stuff.

[Isamu Dyson]

Presumably because grappling impedes movement.

Game, set, and match.

[Erberor]

I just don't think that it should be able to prevent someone from grabbing you. Preventing you from being slowed by spells, terrain and such seems fine, but there is just this enormous discontinuity between the two effects that I can't get over.

Frankly I think it probably ought to only prevent things that specifically target your movement. Paralysis seems like way more than just preventing movement, and yet it prevents it.

stupid NO spells.

[eggynack]

Eh, the way I figure it, things do what they do and don't do what they don't do. It's not like these effects are too far out of line with each other, and as deophaun notes, grappling still has reasonably airtight defenses even without FoM. I agree that the design philosophy of spells that just stop things isn't the best, and FoM is one of the better examples of that, given its relatively low level, but it is what it is.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, it's kind of like a spell that makes someone immune to damage. (Is there anything that does that, even for a round?) It's the rings that really make it ridiculous. (http://agc.deskslave.org/comics/AGC22-11.GIF)


But yes, it is ridiculously powerful, as are most spells that allow casters to just say "No."
I suspect that auto-win abilities are overused in a lot of games, because for some reason a +1000 bonus is more likely to register as dubiously powerful than an effective infinite bonus. Rather like the outright impossible seeming more plausible than the highly improbable.

Relevant article is relevant. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html)


Paralysis seems like way more than just preventing movement
Eh? What else does it do?

[Phelix-Mu]

I believe paralysis also prevents speech. Not that that is worse than impeding movement, necessarily. But it really hits spellcasters and bards where it hurts (and good riddance).

My view is that FoM should give a big bonus to resist grapples, not flat immunity. Something like CL x 2 or something. Thus, it would start at +14 bonus and go to +40. Effective immunity for most cases, but maybe not blocking that great wyrm.

[Rubik]

It's the rings that really make it ridiculous. (http://agc.deskslave.org/comics/AGC22-11.GIF)That's actually the first strip that I've seen that had less text than an 8.5 x 11 sheet printed at 10 point font.

I still can't tell what genders most of them are supposed to be, and it's creepy how their eyes are nothing but gaping white holes in their plasticine, emotionless "faces."

[Gemini476]

Presumably because grappling impedes movement. You're pretty unlikely to get the effect at level one, given that freedom of movement is a 4th level spell, and that heart of water is a 3rd level spell, and that a ring of the effect costs 40,000 GP. It's an effect that gets a lot more absurd when you start considering the stuff that the spell doesn't explicitly say it works on. For example, is a forcecage a spell that impedes movement, and can you thus slip right through the force as though it were not there? Wonky stuff.


Granted Power (Su): For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds). This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Add Survival to your list of cleric class skills.
Sometimes you just need to look at 3.X and say "Why."

[eggynack]

Sometimes you just need to look at 3.X and say "Why."
To be fair, that doesn't work against a regular fellow grappling you, cause it only stops magical stuff. That's still lotsa stuff you're reasonably immune to.

[Löwenohr]

You're pretty unlikely to get the effect at level one

Travel Domain granted ability:


For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds).

This granted power is a supernatural ability.

So, any mildly optimized 1st level cleric will have it (at least, one round per day, and I'm not aware of two domains better than Travel...)

[eggynack]

So, any mildly optimized 1st level cleric will have it (at least, one round per day, and I'm not aware of two domains better than Travel...)
As I noted, not against grappling. Also, spell, magic, undeath, planning, deathbound, inquisition, trickery, kobold, and animal are some I've seen on quite a few builds. You can pretty easily build a highly optimized cleric without even touching travel.

[Löwenohr]

As I noted, not against grappling. Also, spell, magic, undeath, planning, deathbound, inquisition, trickery, kobold, and animal are some I've seen on quite a few builds. You can pretty easily build a highly optimized cleric without even touching travel.

Sorry, please read that as "any mildly optimized cleric who is concerned about freedom of movement". In any case, Travel is still a pretty good all-purpose domain.

[eggynack]

Sorry, please read that as "any mildly optimized cleric who is concerned about freedom of movement". In any case, Travel is still a pretty good all-purpose domain.
True enough. Travel certainly isn't a not-optimized domain, offering teleportation options to a class that doesn't get all that many of them. Still, unless you're dealing with black tentacles or something, travel domain doesn't work against grappling, which is the OP's main concern with the ability. It's a good domain power, but it's not a perfect substitute for real FoM.

[Rebel7284]

Elf clerics can get travel domain virtually for free with seeker of the misty isle as long as they are willing to burn some skill points in survival.

[Dimers]

To be fair, that doesn't work against a regular fellow grappling you, cause it only stops magical stuff. That's still lotsa stuff you're reasonably immune to.

Huh. Wish we'd noticed that last session. Er, I suppose I should be glad we didn't know that last session, because the cleric got away from the grapple as a result -- but my Lawful Neutral shoulder angel wishes we'd noticed.

[Dalebert]

freedom of movement is a 4th level spell, and that heart of water is a 3rd level spell

I just discovered HoW and I love it. I plan to have it up always. Seems better than FoM to me.

[eggynack]

I just discovered HoW and I love it. I plan to have it up always. Seems better than FoM to me.
It's pretty frigging amazing, especially because it has an arguably better duration than the higher leveled FoM. I'm a bit less of a heart of air fan now though, ever since I found snowshoes. I mean, it's still probably the best way to get that synergy bonus, but the speed bonus from heart of air just looks silly in comparison to the all around speed bonus provided by snowshoes. The fact that air boosted bat speed was one of my major justifications for the spell's use.

[Dalebert]

I'm a bit less of a heart of air fan now though, ever since I found snowshoes. I mean, it's still probably the best way to get that synergy bonus...

Yeah, I was justifying it due to the feather fall option though it probably makes more sense for me to just use Versatile Spellcaster and use 2 cantrips to cast FF on the rare case that I need it. Not sure how much I care about the synergy. Is light fortification all that great?

I only recently discovered snowhoes just when I was getting access to the Travel domain and was so excited to get longstrider. Snowshoes is actually better. So frustrating to realize I could have been casting it all along!

[Drachasor]

Hilariously, PF nerfed Death Ward (because stopping rocket tag is bad), and kept Freedom of Movement the same (because stopping protracted grappling conflicts that might require party help is good).

[eggynack]

Is light fortification all that great?

It's reasonable at least, and you're effectively getting it out of a second level slot, cause heart of water was happening anyway. It's probably one of the better effects you can get out of a long duration second level spell, which is important when the slot becomes worth less than the action you're taking to use it. Also, the main spell effect is significantly better than what you get out of something like primal hunter, though the synergy effect on that one, uncanny dodge, might be better.

[Isamu Dyson]

stupid no spells.

Sounds good to me. Part of the fun of playing a spellcaster is being able to be immune to certain effects with a manifestation of arcane/divine energies.

[eggynack]

Sounds good to me. Part of the fun of playing a spellcaster is being able to be immune to certain effects with a manifestation of arcane/divine energies.
Well, to be fair, some of those "certain effects," like this one, have been known to be the basis for entire characters. So, when you say that you want to be immune to certain effects, you're effectively saying that you want to be immune to certain characters, and those characters presumably don't want people to be able to say, "I am immune to you." It's a problematic sort of thing, and it means that those certain characters are rendered ineffective at certain level ranges.

[Isamu Dyson]

Well, to be fair, some of those "certain effects," like this one, have been known to be the basis for entire characters. So, when you say that you want to be immune to certain effects, you're effectively saying that you want to be immune to certain characters, and those characters presumably don't want people to be able to say, "I am immune to you." It's a problematic sort of thing, and it means that those certain characters are rendered ineffective at certain level ranges.

Isn't there a spell that auto-deflects arrows? Should that be taken out so that ranged Rangers don't feel bad?

[Drachasor]

Isn't there a spell that auto-deflects arrows? Should that be taken out so that ranged Rangers don't feel bad?

Ideally you'd have a system that scaled in such a way so that there was never any perfect defense against X. Instead you'd have Defense to X beaten by X+1 beaten by Defense to X+1 etc, in a way that naturally scaled. Probably in a way that had gray areas of partial effectiveness as well.

Generally speaking. DR works more or less like that, but a lot of other things don't. In general D&D has too mean boolean attacks and defenses.

[Isamu Dyson]

We might as well remove Death Ward too. Poor Necromancy-school Wizards.


Ideally you'd have a system that scaled in such a way so that there was never any perfect defense against X. Instead you'd have Defense to X beaten by X+1 beaten by Defense to X+1 etc, in a way that naturally scaled. Probably in a way that had gray areas of partial effectiveness as well.

Generally speaking. DR works more or less like that, but a lot of other things don't. In general D&D has too mean boolean attacks and defenses.

This sounds like a variant preference. Some GMs might abstain from letting "absolute defenses" in their game, but I feel most GMs just let them stay.

[Drachasor]

This sounds like a variant preference. Some GMs might abstain from letting "absolute defenses" in their game, but I feel most GMs just let them stay.

Well, I'm saying it makes for a better and more tactically interesting system when you don't have absolute defenses. It also helps limit the caster-martial divide, which is a major problem of the system (though it doesn't remotely solve that problem, it's a step). And it adds some nice fluff possibilities.

[Aharon]

Yeah, it's kind of like a spell that makes someone immune to damage. (Is there anything that does that, even for a round?)

Why stop at immunity to damage, when you can have immunity to everything? Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) does that (caveat: you are immune, spell and psionic effects currently effecting you are not. So your timeless body can still be dispelled.) Oh, and if you look at the duration and range... there is a 3.0 metapsionic feat called Persist Power, that extends the duration to 24 hours. TAnother caveat:here's discussion whether it's automatically ported to 3.5 or not, because the changes to the psionic subsystem were more pronounced than in most other areas.
My favorite way to get this is via Psionic Artificer, at level 13 - just in time for the Test of Spite :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

I agree that calling out grappling specifically being something FoM grants immunity to defies logic. The travel domain power is actually more acceptable in terms of what the spell should do.

However, this is hardly an exception wrt spells. It does make grappling a niche strategy though.

[Rubik]

Why stop at immunity to damage, when you can have immunity to everything? Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) does that (caveat: you are immune, spell and psionic effects currently effecting you are not. So your timeless body can still be dispelled.) Oh, and if you look at the duration and range... there is a 3.0 metapsionic feat called Persist Power, that extends the duration to 24 hours. TAnother caveat:here's discussion whether it's automatically ported to 3.5 or not, because the changes to the psionic subsystem were more pronounced than in most other areas.
My favorite way to get this is via Psionic Artificer, at level 13 - just in time for the Test of Spite :smallsmile:I like combining Timeless Body with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) with the metamind's font of power and the Temporal Reiteration power. Now you're invulnerable, undispellable, have durations that last forever, and infinite power points available.

You can be Disjunctioned, so take steps to make sure that doesn't happen.

[Gemini476]

Well, I'm saying it makes for a better and more tactically interesting system when you don't have absolute defenses. It also helps limit the caster-martial divide, which is a major problem of the system (though it doesn't remotely solve that problem, it's a step). And it adds some nice fluff possibilities.

If Exalted has taught me anything, it's that Perfect Defended and Perfect Attacks are a horrible idea - it just limits the viable concepts available to players and monsters while giving an unnecessary boost to certain classes that honestly don't need the help.
Protection from Arrows is not that bad - DR is tough but beatable.
Wind Wall and the various other spells that just say "no" to bows? You just made an entire category of mundane warriors useless.

Similarly, Mind Blank vs. Enchantment and Divination, and Death Ward vs. [Death] effects. There's a reason that the meant-to-be-scary save-or-dies are often a joke.

Freedom of Movement is just one example of an entire category of problematic spells. They really should just be save boosters rather than outright immunity.

[Drachasor]

If Exalted has taught me anything, it's that Perfect Defended and Perfect Attacks are a horrible idea - it just limits the viable concepts available to players and monsters while giving an unnecessary boost to certain classes that honestly don't need the help.
Protection from Arrows is not that bad - DR is tough but beatable.
Wind Wall and the various other spells that just say "no" to bows? You just made an entire category of mundane warriors useless.

Similarly, Mind Blank vs. Enchantment and Divination, and Death Ward vs. [Death] effects. There's a reason that the meant-to-be-scary save-or-dies are often a joke.

Freedom of Movement is just one example of an entire category of problematic spells. They really should just be save boosters rather than outright immunity.

With Death Ward there's something of a point. Instant-death mechanics (e.g. rocket tag stuff) are less fun than the alternative. So spells that stop non-fun mechanics are good. Grappling, on the other hand, is a protracted struggle that other people can get involved in. That's why PF's change to Death Ward but not Free Action is funny to me.

[eggynack]

Isn't there a spell that auto-deflects arrows? Should that be taken out so that ranged Rangers don't feel bad?
Indeed there is, and it's called anything that produces sufficiently fast moving winds. The classic is wind wall, but control winds, sandstorm, eye of the hurricane, and a few others just completely stop archery. As for the second question, probably, yeah. Invalidating an entire character with a low level spell is probably a bad thing.

[Karnith]

Indeed there is, and it's called anything that produces sufficiently fast moving winds.
Also Friendly Fire, which is more direct immunity to ranged attacks. And Stormrage, which is immunity to thrown weapons and projectile attacks without directly changing wind speeds over an area.

[eggynack]

Also Friendly Fire, which is more direct immunity to ranged attacks. And Stormrage, which is immunity to thrown weapons and projectile attacks without directly changing wind speeds over an area.
Ooh, don't forget blizzard. That spell is some cool beans. It's kinda crazy how many spells just say no to archery.

[Red Fel]

To be fair, archery gets the short end of the stick even without "just say no to arrows" spells.

Grappling, on a related-but-not-similar note, is a mechanical structure that is, to put it gently, obtuse at the best of times. Frankly, and playing devil's advocate, I'm not surprised that the game includes a mechanic that says "You know those arcane, elaborate grappling rules that nobody seems to get? Yeah, you can cast this and **** 'em."

I happen to agree, however, that on the whole, "no" spells can render games un-fun. Oh, they're lots of fun for the caster, no doubt; but when that caster is an NPC, it gets bothersome.

PC1: "I fire my arrows!"
DM: "Nope, he has Wind Wall."
PC2: "I try to grab him!"
DM: "Freedom of Movement."
PC3: "Well, then, I try hitting him with my axe."
DM: "Permeable Form; he's immune to your non-magical weapon."
PC4: "Well, then, I try to mentally dominate him into surrendering."
DM: "Protection from Evil."

The above is a mild exaggeration, but it's not hard to see how any caster worth his salt can prepare for almost any eventuality. There is a list of magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) the PCs can use to shut down most of the more devastating conditions; casters can produce many, if not all, of these effects with proper preparation. And that's the key - whether PC or NPC, a caster worth his staff-with-a-knob-at-the-end is going to make himself as resistant to squishing as he can. "Just say no" spells are his bread and butter. (That, and Miracle, Wish, Gate, but let's not get into that.)

It's not just a question of shutting down one character type, such as grapplers or archers or mind-takers. It's about being able to shut them all down with a single day's preparation.

[Perseus]

Common house rule I've seen for FoM is that it only works on magical effects (grasping hand, entanglement, or whatever). However it gives a bonus to escape artist and strength/grapple checks (scaling bonus) when dealing with mundane effects.

Essentially FoM turns off movement restrictive spells but to make it all around useful it gives you a bonus to help versus mundane effects.

So it gets to stay a "No" spell, but it doesn't get to be a "screw you mundanes" spell.

[Isamu Dyson]

I was posing a rhetorical question. In actuality, I have no problems with spells that shut down certain abilities/attacks.

[Devils_Advocate]

Personally, I think my biggest problem with this is that I find it difficult to visualize the effect. I can see environmental impediments parting out of a character's way, but forcing someone to open his arms to let you go... Well, that at least seems like the sort of thing that usually gives a saving throw when used against a creature, though it works automatically on the inanimate (which doesn't have saves).


I believe paralysis also prevents speech.
It's pretty darned hard to speak without moving your mouth.


Part of the fun of playing a spellcaster is being able to be immune to certain effects with a manifestation of arcane/divine energies.
The question is which effects those should be. It seems most appropriate to me that magic can cancel other magic, but can't cancel... well, whatever it damn well pleases.

Take hiding, for example. Invisibility makes a character auto-succeed (except vs. Epic Spot). But see invisibility and true seeing automatically overcome it. On the other hand, true seeing doesn't work against mundane Hide and Disguise checks, while Spot checks do. Of course, magic can boost skill checks too, but that doesn't guarantee success against everyone.

So, one magical absolute absolutely fails against the magical countermeasure, while that absolute in turn does nothing against the mundane (except darkness), and mundane checks are non-absolute, with the highest of opposed results winning.


Isn't there a spell that auto-deflects arrows? Should that be taken out so that ranged Rangers don't feel bad?
Of course not! Completely negating an entire combat style should be done at every possible opportunity!


We might as well remove Death Ward too. Poor Necromancy-school Wizards.
Well, interpreting "negative energy effects" to include all Necromancy makes its protection overly broad, but I don't think that's what that means. And stopping some Necromancy hardly strikes me as equivalent to stopping all archery.


Why stop at immunity to damage, when you can have immunity to everything? Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) does that (caveat: you are immune, spell and psionic effects currently effecting you are not. So your timeless body can still be dispelled.)
Now, see, that seems appropriate for its level, duration, and restriction against being quickened.


Oh, and if you look at the duration and range... there is a 3.0 metapsionic feat called Persist Power, that extends the duration to 24 hours. TAnother caveat:here's discussion whether it's automatically ported to 3.5 or not, because the changes to the psionic subsystem were more pronounced than in most other areas.
My favorite way to get this is via Psionic Artificer, at level 13 - just in time for the Test of Spite :smallsmile:
"All effects" seems broad enough to rule the manifester to be frozen and unconscious for the duration of the power... should the DM be given cause to do so. ;)


If Exalted has taught me anything, it's that Perfect Defended and Perfect Attacks are a horrible idea - it just limits the viable concepts available to players and monsters while giving an unnecessary boost to certain classes that honestly don't need the help.
Well, cheap or long-duration perfect defenses anyway. Solars get cheap and long-duration defenses against both both shaping and social effects, if I recall correctly.


Similarly, Mind Blank vs. Enchantment and Divination
Eh, I'm not convinced that scrying and mental domination aren't overpowered even with lots of things outright immune to them.


Indeed there is, and it's called anything that produces sufficiently fast moving winds. The classic is wind wall, but control winds, sandstorm, eye of the hurricane, and a few others just completely stop archery.
Upon reflection, ignoring winds seems like it should be a basic ranged weapon enhancement. That's a rather freedom of movement-like effect, in fact, and if magic can do that for a character, why not projectiles? It would serve as a counter-absolute, just like see invisibility.

Does that exist anywhere? My knowledge of 3.5 material is far from comprehensive. Regardless, it seems fair to call it +1 equivalent.


There is a list of magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) the PCs can use to shut down most of the more devastating conditions
There's something familiar about that list. (http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Ascension_kit)

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

In a recent game I was playing a beguiler at 9th lvl. We were fighting that boss (undead) monster that would always hit and would win every grapple. I used all my 4th lvl spells on freedom of movement and displacement and we survived. I don't think we would have managed without it :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

Personally, I think my biggest problem with this is that I find it difficult to visualize the effect. I can see environmental impediments parting out of a character's way, but forcing someone to open his arms to let you go... Well, that at least seems like the sort of thing that usually gives a saving throw when used against a creature, though it works automatically on the inanimate (which doesn't have saves).
I just imagine the caster travelling through these things unimpeded,without actually moving anything around. Like, they just duck out of the grapple, or step through the solid fog.


Upon reflection, ignoring winds seems like it should be a basic ranged weapon enhancement. That's a rather freedom of movement-like effect, in fact, and if magic can do that for a character, why not projectiles? It would serve as a counter-absolute, just like see invisibility.

Does that exist anywhere? My knowledge of 3.5 material is far from comprehensive. Regardless, it seems fair to call it +1 equivalent.
I think Hank's energy bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) works against wind wall. There's not much else, to my knowledge.