Multiplatform The Elder Scrolls: By the VIII Divines [Archive] - Page 6

DomaDoma

2014-08-13, 09:55 PM

My Champion is clearly not the canon Champion, seeing as she didn't do any of the evil-side-of-the-street major questlines. (Though I might go back and do Thieves' Guild; I hear that quest is awesome and the only reason I didn't do it is I thought I'd get kicked out of the Fighters and Mages if I did.) I say my Champion kind of soured on grand quests but couldn't find it in herself to retire, so she wound up coalescing a vigilante organization in Bravil around that one lovable lamer who pretends he's running one already. (I can't find said lamer on UESP, but I swear the guy exists.) This fantasy involved dragging in Gogan and Maelona; I'm not sure if I regret that decision on the whole or not, because it spawned an excellent brood of plot bunnies, but anyway, post-Skyrim it's pretty clear to me that the Thalmor had her killed just to make sure they had a clear shot at Ocato. Badass she may have been, but she wasn't exactly difficult to deceive, if you knew her buttons.

Funny thing, she really got the wrong end of the stick about Ocato back during the Allies for Bruma quest, and I don't think regular chats with Count Terentius would have helped. I mean, she did know the guy for the keystone he was, but I'm pretty sure the personal resentment for what she assumed was an attempt at usurpation-by-inaction lasted to the end.

Best plot bunny of the lot: Catulla the Wild, a minor Interregnum warlord who did a very good soulful lost-princess thing, but wound up alienating most of the people she won over within a month on account of being an all-consuming manipulative pathological liar, having her kids abducted, and generally trending so self-destructive that the serious Colovian warlords didn't see the need to finish the job. Being raised in the cult of Sanguine will do a number on you.

Leviting

2014-08-13, 11:53 PM

Heh. One of those stupid unresolvable questions... who would win in a showdown between the Dragonborn and the Nerevarine? The Dragonborn has Shouts and legendary equipment, but the Nerevarine has way cooler spells and artifacts, plus she can wear about 12 enchantments at once.

(We can discount the Champion of Cyrodiil, he's a giant wuss in comparison with either one. Also he never had the foresight to get the Immortality perk, meaning he's very likely dead by now.)

Nerevarine. The Nerevarine can fly and swing a Dai-Katana faster than the Dragonborn can swing a dagger, can fire energy balls at high speed from his helmet, and can gain the enchantment from a shield without actually equipping it. Did I mention he can fly? Plus, the Nerevarine can outlast the Dragonborn, as his items recharge soul-charge over time, and, if anything, simply wait for the Dragonborn to age to death. Shouts? meet dropping custom super-fireballs from 50 feet in the air.

Togath

2014-08-14, 12:59 AM

Nilehus

2014-08-14, 01:17 AM

I really disliked the Thieves Guild in Skyrim setup. The main storyline was good and all, but the side missions... "Okay, you need to do 5 missions in each city to unlock a special mission that will allow us to spread there." "Alright! Let's start with Whiterun." "No. Here's a dozen missions in Riften." "... -YOL TOOR SHUL-" I know you can save scum to get the one you want, but it just feels unnecessary. If there's one city left with 4 missions completed, it shouldn't take me reloading a dozen times to get the proper mission. And as always, blah blah blah too short can finish it in one day easy.

... I think I'm just going to marry Morrowind since I love it so much.

On the positive side, I found out that the Shield of Solitude, the reward for the second quest with Falk Firebeard, counts as a separate Resist Magic enchantment. So I've got 90% Magic resistance, combined with an additional 50% Elemental resistance when I'm blocking. Bit overkill, perhaps, but I think I've finally made my character completely unkillable.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-14, 01:43 AM

The Thieves Guild is my favorite group in Skyrim.

Morty

2014-08-14, 05:30 AM

I've been playing with the SkyRe mod for a while, and that fixed lockpick and pickpocket by making them one skill, which should have been the case in the base game. It also makes speech useful with some things related to shouts and the ability to disguise yourself. Unfortunately, it was designed with high-level characters in mind, so it takes a lot of perks to get anything useful.

It does sound interesting. Link to the mod?

I really disliked the Thieves Guild in Skyrim setup. The main storyline was good and all, but the side missions... "Okay, you need to do 5 missions in each city to unlock a special mission that will allow us to spread there." "Alright! Let's start with Whiterun." "No. Here's a dozen missions in Riften." "... -YOL TOOR SHUL-" I know you can save scum to get the one you want, but it just feels unnecessary. If there's one city left with 4 missions completed, it shouldn't take me reloading a dozen times to get the proper mission. And as always, blah blah blah too short can finish it in one day easy.

... I think I'm just going to marry Morrowind since I love it so much.

I don't know, it sounds better than a handful of linear quests before you end up the head honcho, which the Companions and College give us.

DigoDragon

2014-08-14, 07:04 AM

In a similar vein - does anyone bother with the lockpicking or speech perks?

I usually don't, as I can get through the game just fine. And unless I got something like the mod that converts dragon souls to perks, usually my perk points aren't in large supply to spread around the different skills.

Not that it wouldn't be cool anyway, but really, the skillset you get as an RPG adventurer doesn't seem to gel with a career in politics. :smalltongue:

Quite true, though it seems to be a staple trope in these fantasy games where the adventurer ends up leader of some nation in the end. Wasn't Tiber Septim an adventurer and then war general before becoming emperor?

I really disliked the Thieves Guild in Skyrim setup. The main storyline was good and all, but the side missions... "Okay, you need to do 5 missions in each city to unlock a special mission that will allow us to spread there." "Alright! Let's start with Whiterun." "No. Here's a dozen missions in Riften." "... -YOL TOOR SHUL-" I know you can save scum to get the one you want, but it just feels unnecessary. If there's one city left with 4 missions completed, it shouldn't take me reloading a dozen times to get the proper mission. And as always, blah blah blah too short can finish it in one day easy.

That is my only beef with the Thieves Guild. It's otherwise one of the better guilds in the game (but I'm biased for playing sneaky characters). I must say though, after getting the 'Prowler's Profit' perk, I think I'm not ever going to bother with it again. It's just too good with giving gems.

On the positive side, I found out that the Shield of Solitude, the reward for the second quest with Falk Firebeard, counts as a separate Resist Magic enchantment.

Really? Niiice. Though I'd hate to disenchant mine because it's sitting in a collection with shields from the 8 other holds...

AdmiralCheez

2014-08-14, 09:48 AM

It does sound interesting. Link to the mod?

Sure, it's right here (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/9286/?). Make sure to read over the whole thing, as it's a fairly involved mod. If you install all the modules, it changes everything from the standing stones, to perk trees, to combat, to race abilities and more. It also makes previous saves almost unplayable due to how much it changes things.

Morty

2014-08-14, 10:14 AM

Curious. I'm not that far into the game, so I might start over to try it out. The problem is that it won't work with any mods I already have, including the custom weapon and armour skins. Which is a problem were I to continue my Argonian sneak run, since damn, the light armour above Leather is ugly in TES.

Kesnit

2014-08-14, 11:32 AM

In a similar vein - does anyone bother with the lockpicking or speech perks?

I use a mod that gives me the Lockpick perks (except the first one) for free once I reach the required skill level. Though over time, I've gotten good enough that I can open any lock below Master without too much effort. (Master locks suck...)

I think it irks me that the first, root pick in the tree is a perk that makes 'novice' level locks even easier to pick, which feels a bit like paying a perk for the power to tell when it's raining.

But it is a pre-req for perks that tell you when a tornado is about to touch down right next to you (to continue your weather analogy). That's why I always took the Lockpick perks when I played on the console.

I never use the Speech perks, but my wife always does. Being able to buy and sell anything (non-stolen) to anyone saves having to jump from city to city to sell everything (because the junk dealer in the first city it out of gold).

If absolutely nothing else, it's pretty easy to get a companion that can pick nearly any lock for you. And Master locks almost always have keys.

Who uses companions? All they do is get in your way and complain when you hit them accidentally with a spell! :smallsmile:

Some Master locks have keys (mostly ones near a boss), but a lot don't.

Shouts? meet dropping custom super-fireballs from 50 feet in the air.

So the Dragonborn calls a dragon and throws Shouts and spells while the dragon breathes.

NineThePuma

2014-08-14, 11:32 AM

SkyRe is really fun, but at the same time, its changes are very deep.

Morty

2014-08-14, 11:45 AM

Another problem I see with it is that it's installed without the Dragonborn DLC at your own risk. That's not good, since I don't have it and don't really have the spare money to buy it.

TheEmerged

2014-08-14, 11:57 AM

RE: Sheild of Solitude. Yep, I knew this, and have the Shield of "What, me worry about magic?" to show for it. This on top of being a Breton with the perks off the Alteration tree... I forget which puzzle it was, but there was one where I was actually taking magic damage and it shocked me.

RE: Lockpicking & Speech trees. Lockpicking no. Speech tree though? As someone mentioned, that perk to sell anything to anyone is quite awesome. The one to "invest" in merchants seems to bug out too often to really be worth it though. There's a reason I took that tree earlier rather than later on my second playthrough.

NineThePuma

2014-08-14, 12:49 PM

Shield of Solitude Second (Stronger) Resist Magic enchant got 'fixed' by the unofficial patches, sadly.

Togath

2014-08-14, 01:39 PM

Shield of Solitude Second (Stronger) Resist Magic enchant got 'fixed' by the unofficial patches, sadly.

If you use them anyway...
I personally avoid them when possible, due to things like that.
On one hand they sometimes fix bugs... On the other hand, there's a fair amount of "the modder thought it would be better this way" stuff.

Winter_Wolf

2014-08-14, 04:38 PM

If you use them anyway...
I personally avoid them when possible, due to things like that.
On one hand they sometimes fix bugs... On the other hand, there's a fair amount of "the modder thought it would be better this way" stuff.
Ugh, yeah I hear that. The restoration potion bug only affected you if you tried to use it, but apparently the fact that it even existed was too troubling for someone on that team. The fact that there was soon after a mod that undid what UKSP did to it speaks volumes about that particular issue. Meanwhile no one has seen fit to deal with the glitch in the BYO hearthfire homestead west wing bedroom with the weapon rack. :smallannoyed: Overall I tend to appreciate most of the things that do get fixed or changed though.

Morty

2014-08-14, 05:00 PM

veti

2014-08-14, 05:01 PM

If you use them anyway...
I personally avoid them when possible, due to things like that.
On one hand they sometimes fix bugs... On the other hand, there's a fair amount of "the modder thought it would be better this way" stuff.

Bugs that help the player are still bugs. I don't think it's realistic for the modders to give you a gargantuan menu with checkboxes for every single fix; short of that, how can they let you decide which ones you don't want?

Usually, I try to avoid big, sweeping mods that bundle a lot of changes together, unless there's some coherent reason for them. But I do use the Unofficial patches.

Divayth Fyr

2014-08-14, 05:57 PM

Bugs that help the player are still bugs. I don't think it's realistic for the modders to give you a gargantuan menu with checkboxes for every single fix; short of that, how can they let you decide which ones you don't want?
While this is true, there are cases where they "fix" you can't call bugs with a 100% certainty. Mannequins moving around ot quests failing to finish are bugs, but an item having an unique version of an enchanting effect isn't as clear. And the Necromage perk making spells/enchantments have a greater effect on vampire pcs almost certainly isn't a bug - it doesn't say "All spells are more effective against hostile undead", it says "All spells are more effective against undead". A vampire pc is an undead, so the condition is met.

I really disliked the Thieves Guild in Skyrim setup. The main storyline was good and all, but the side missions... "Okay, you need to do 5 missions in each city to unlock a special mission that will allow us to spread there." "Alright! Let's start with Whiterun." "No. Here's a dozen missions in Riften." "... -YOL TOOR SHUL-" I know you can save scum to get the one you want, but it just feels unnecessary. If there's one city left with 4 missions completed, it shouldn't take me reloading a dozen times to get the proper mission. And as always, blah blah blah too short can finish it in one day easy.
The lack of option to choose a city for the side jobs was the single terrible thing tainting a great idea. The main faction questline on the other hand was full of stupidity and far too often didn't feel like a TG at all...

Togath

2014-08-14, 06:00 PM

Bugs that help the player are still bugs.

I didn't mean beneficial bugs.
I meant things the modder decided weren't correct, as Karpik mentioned.

Nilehus

2014-08-14, 06:20 PM

The lack of option to choose a city for the side jobs was the single terrible thing tainting a great idea. The main faction questline on the other hand was full of stupidity and far too often didn't feel like a TG at all...

I like the idea of it. So, so much. Rebuilding your power across Skyrim, so that the Thieves Guild grows in infamy to the point where you can buy off anyone. I love that. But the side missions were boring, easy if you had any skill in Sneak (and that's for the 'hard' ones), and very very repetitive. I think I stole the same Golden Ship from the same house 2 or 3 times.

A lot of the factions suffer from that. Radiant questing is cool and all, but it can't be the crutch that all the factions rely on. Great for side missions, but at the end of the day, it just feels... Shallow. And no quantity of shallow side missions can make up for a main plot line that can be finished in 3-4 hours.

I do love Skyrim, but it is not without its flaws. :smalltongue:

Unrelated note: That perk you get for completing the Stones of Barenziah quest? I agree. I'll never, ever have to worry about money again, but I've already got 20 pounds of gems I'm carrying around. I will never find someone that carries this much gold!

Divayth Fyr

2014-08-14, 06:31 PM

I like the idea of it. So, so much. Rebuilding your power across Skyrim, so that the Thieves Guild grows in infamy to the point where you can buy off anyone. I love that. But the side missions were boring, easy if you had any skill in Sneak (and that's for the 'hard' ones), and very very repetitive. I think I stole the same Golden Ship from the same house 2 or 3 times.
Hey, at least it is actual thieving, not running around dungeons to kill someone. ;)

BTW, anyone did the 125 random TG jobs required to get a safe near your desk? I was like "never again" right after doing those I needed to become the guildmaster...

I do love Skyrim, but it is not without its flaws. :smalltongue:
It has a crapload of those, doesn't it?

Nilehus

2014-08-14, 06:45 PM

Hey, at least it is actual thieving, not running around dungeons to kill someone. ;)

BTW, anyone did the 125 random TG jobs required to get a safe near your desk? I was like "never again" right after doing those I needed to become the guildmaster...

Ha, very true. :smalltongue: Suppose I can't be too annoyed by the Thieves Guild being about thieving. Just wish they would've added some pizzazz to it.

... 125? For a safe? I was mind-numbingly bored after doing the mandatory 20. If I'm going to do an extra 105 missions for a safe, it had better be gold plated, usable as a weapon, and voiced by Christopher Lee.

NineThePuma

2014-08-14, 07:27 PM

Has anyone tried out this (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/21587/?) mod? I personally can't imagine ever using the pre-generated classes, and perks differentiate character advancement better than dynamic skill gain, which brings its own problems, did, so I'm not sure.

I use it, along with dynamic racial gains, when I have a concept that wants particular 'supporting' skills high but doesn't care to grind them; the actual classes are almost entirely ignored.

veti

2014-08-14, 08:36 PM

A lot of the factions suffer from that. Radiant questing is cool and all, but it can't be the crutch that all the factions rely on. Great for side missions, but at the end of the day, it just feels... Shallow. And no quantity of shallow side missions can make up for a main plot line that can be finished in 3-4 hours.

Well, technically the main quest takes much longer to finish (at the limit) than Morrowind's, chiefly because (a) it's much more linear, and (b) you have to sit through a lot of unskippable dialogue. Google 'Morrowind speed run' - the main quest can be completed in less than 4 minutes, from character generation to smashing the BBEG... The fastest equivalent for Skyrim that I can see is around 50 minutes.

But yeah, shallow definitely applies. I blame 'fast travel', which encourages developers to treat all cities as utterly interchangeable. An idea like "travel to place A, got a couple of things to take care of there, then swing by B on the way back" - doesn't make sense in Skyrim.

In my current runthrough, I've been avoiding fast travel, and I've discovered: if you turn on all your miscellaneous quest markers at once, you can get the mother of all travelling salesman problems. And it's not fun.

NineThePuma

2014-08-14, 08:45 PM

I regularly avoid fast traveling, simply because I've found that -running there- is faster by the ingame clock. The exceptions are major cities for the first time: wagons op.

veti

2014-08-14, 09:10 PM

I regularly avoid fast traveling, simply because I've found that -running there- is faster by the ingame clock. The exceptions are major cities for the first time: wagons op.

I still use the wagons. Life is too short to run from Solitude to Whiterun.

I've noticed previously that 'fast travel' isn't that fast. (Maybe it's based on a walking, rather than running, speed?) But "the ingame clock" is irrelevant. Unless you're a vampire, it makes zero difference whether it takes you 2 in-game hours or 20 to get from one city to another.

Does anyone know of a mod that actually makes some of those "urgent" quests - urgent? So that you fail them, if you take too long about it?

(Optionally it could also add duration to smithing/crafting processes. It always struck me as odd that you could just stop on your way into the city to tan several hides of leather - I've always understood it takes days to tan a hide, and I'm pretty sure it takes more than a couple of minutes to forge a new sword as well.)

Cobalt

2014-08-15, 01:08 AM

I don't think I've fast-traveled since 2012. Outside of testing for glitches, that is; but playing the game I don't even use carriages without a mod to ride in real-time. I think fast traveling everywhere is part of why I didn't enjoy Oblivion that much when I first played it, in the sense that I spoiled my experience. I remember using fast travel in Skyrim for a lot of my characters when I first got the game, but I've really gotten away from it. I feel it makes the game more fun. Also, it makes horses mandatory, but horses are fun too, so.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-15, 01:42 AM

I always fast travel, ESPECIALLY on escort missions. Yes, it is beautiful to walk around but I just don't have the patience to walk from one end of the map to the other just to deliver a fetch quest. If I couldn't fast travel I would just not do 90% of the quests in the game.

And no, horses are not fun. They are annoying pieces of idocracy you pay 1000 Gold for to watch die within 10 minutes of getting one. Every. Single. Time. The first thing I did was to download a mod that makes them behave like horses, and runs and hides every time there's a fight. But it still don't stop the fact that the enemy get in 2-4 free hits on you while you try to dismount your horse so you can fight efficiently.
The only thing they are good for is letting you fast travel encumbered.

NineThePuma

2014-08-15, 01:53 AM

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-15, 02:02 AM

If you have a problem with horses, maybe you should look into, iunno, memorizing where the random encounter slots are and checking them out from afar? Granted, I usually just get Arvak as soon as I can.

I wouldn't touch Arvak with an 11.5 foot pole. He looks cool in a "what to paint on your 1970ies Van that isn't a naked woman with big boobies" kind of way, but he just doesn't fit the setting or my character in any way. Remember, I hate the look of the dragonbone and daedra armors, too, because they look too "ain't this cool" and not "hey let's design something that fits the setting". (I tend to use Leather Armor as long as possible, since it is the best looking armor in the game, to me).

And no, I know it can be done, but it kinda takes away from the excitement when I DON'T fast travel if I start meta-gaming like that. No, I prefer tavelling the land permanently croached, so I have the eye / stealth meter / radar tell me if anything close to me spots me at any given time, and enables me to shoot arrows at people I can barely see on screen yet. :smallcool::smallamused:

Nilehus

2014-08-15, 02:03 AM

Based on how fragile the horses are at a low level, I'm convinced the person coding the horses was thinking "Yeah, horse armor is so stupid, huh? BET YOU WISH YOU HAD IT NOW!"

I fast travel depending on the quest. Important story mission? I'll walk or take a horse. Fetch quest? Screw that, I do not have the time.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-15, 02:04 AM

Morty

2014-08-15, 05:31 AM

I use it, along with dynamic racial gains, when I have a concept that wants particular 'supporting' skills high but doesn't care to grind them; the actual classes are almost entirely ignored.

Yeah, so I think I'll pass. This sort of thing is why I don't like the old TES skill system.

As far as horses go, I've yet to see an RPG game where they'd actually work. They'd be alright in SKyrim if you were less likely to be attacked by wildlife, bandits, assassins or Thalmor while on a road, and if you could order the horse to go back to the nearest stable rather than leave it in the wilderness to die. Maybe there's a mod for the latter, but you're always going to have to get off your horse to deal with the newest random encounter.

Ailurus

2014-08-15, 05:46 AM

On occasion I'll fast travel (like, if the destination is on top of a mountain and I'll end up spending 20 minutes looking for the freakin path up), but that's the exception rather than the rule. Usually I'll carriage + walk (with carriaging made more practical by a mod that put a carriage in every major city rather than just half of them).

As for the horses, they're just too big a hassle. I still remember back in Oblivion, the very first mod I ever installed was the appropriately named Dude, where's my horse (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/3861/?), and I'm just not ready to deal with that annoyance again in Skyrim. Especially since the horses don't provide as much of a speed benefit anymore, look 'worse' (I've nothing against draft horses in a general sense, but riding them is silly), and they suffer the same issue in combat as melee followers made worse by their larger size.

Triaxx

2014-08-15, 05:55 AM

What mod are you using for Horses? I use convenient horses which in addition to giving me a sprint charge ability, also has a combat dismount that basically throws me backwards off the horse, and into a weapon drawn stance if my weapon was out. Although I've now taken to using Light Cavalry Tactics and fighting by riding past and smashing my target in the face with my weapon.

It also makes them both cowardly and essential if you want. Plus free horse armor. :D

I agree with Dragon armors looking a little silly. On the other hand, I find it's only the armors and helmets. I use Immersive Armors, and the Wild Hunt armor looks much more awesome than the vanilla dragon armors. I looks like what you'd actually make armor into if you had something as tough as dragon scales to work with.

Gracht Grabmaw

2014-08-15, 11:32 AM

Togath

2014-08-15, 12:10 PM

I'm thinking of reinstalling Oblivion, any particular mods I should get?

I enjoy fast flowing cinematic combat, polearms, throwing knives, weird magic, enviromental damage, wildnerness survival and khajiit that don't look like crappy designs from a rejected daytime TV cartoon.

One that I personally like is "Realistic Leveling (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/13879/?)".
Helps fix the funkiness of vanilla Oblivion leveling.

For visual things, I've found myself fond of two called "Lush and Gaudy: Floriana Gloria (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/41118/?)" and "Lush and Gaudy: Tropical Frippery (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/45346/?)" for environments*.
For characters, the main two I've seen are "Oblivion Character Overhaul (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/43612/?)"(gives a more skyrim-esc look to races, though I've had issues getting it's khajiit to work correctly, with the body either being blurry or purple) and "XEO"(gives an anime-esc look to races, and changes argonians[which end up looking pretty cool, sort of half-dragon half-elf] and khajiit[which... are sort of lame with it, looking like catgirls covered in fur] a lot visually. having trouble finding a link to the mod..).
Khajiit specifically seem hard to find visual replacers for, for some reason(at least if you aren't looking for "catgirl with fur").
If interested in a city overhaul, Oblivion's "Better Cities (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/16513/?)" could be worth trying, it's very modular and adds some pretty neat changes, and is surprisingly compatible with a lot of mods, as long as you don't use the open versions.

For magic, Oblivion's "Midas Magic (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/9562/?)" came up recently, though I haven't had time to try it out much yet.

For combat... The only mod I use currently is "Ar's Hand to Hand (http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/23626/?)", which boosts unarmed damage to make it a bit more usable.

*the same modder also makes ones that change buildings(beautiful), water(nice, though it ironically ends up being shinier than the vanilla water, at least for me), and oblivion realms(haven't tried it out yet, but everything else they've make has been good in my opinion)

Triaxx

2014-08-16, 06:24 AM

If your water is too shiny, try turning off Bloom. I always play with HDR instead.

Togath

2014-08-16, 07:35 AM

If your water is too shiny, try turning off Bloom. I always play with HDR instead.

HDR gives me a solid black screen, unfortunately.

DigoDragon

2014-08-16, 09:02 AM

Who uses companions? All they do is get in your way and complain when you hit them accidentally with a spell! :smallsmile:

But they're quite useful as a caddy when you want to loot those Dwemer dungeons. :smallbiggrin:
I use the Amazing Follower Tweaks mod and ask them to hang back if they start getting underfoot.

... 125? For a safe? I was mind-numbingly bored after doing the mandatory 20. If I'm going to do an extra 105 missions for a safe, it had better be gold plated, usable as a weapon, and voiced by Christopher Lee.

For real. I think once I became guild leader I didn't come back to do anything for another... 20 levels.
...though now I want a mod of a safe voiced by Christopher Lee. :smalltongue:

I regularly avoid fast traveling, simply because I've found that -running there- is faster by the ingame clock. The exceptions are major cities for the first time: wagons op.

There's probably a mod that fixes the timing. I like to fast travel when I want some dragons to show up. Seems to happen quite reliably when I fast travel to Riverwood. That poor cursed town.

Based on how fragile the horses are at a low level, I'm convinced the person coding the horses was thinking "Yeah, horse armor is so stupid, huh? BET YOU WISH YOU HAD IT NOW!"

I've never had a horse die on me from combat. Once for a falling glitch when I landed on some stairs wrong and we got catapulted into LEO.

That said, I usually use a horse if I'm traveling through mountainous terrain.

Morty

2014-08-16, 11:46 AM

So, it looks like the SkyRe mod turns combat into a murder-fest with highly unclear rules. I'm not sure if I like that. It might just be the mod with hit locations, so I'll try turning it off.

Winter_Wolf

2014-08-16, 11:51 AM

The last time I used a horse in mountainous terrain, we went tumbling down the north face of a cliff overlooking the area near Northkeep. No survivors from that crash. :smallfrown:

What I wonder, is why horses seem completely incapable of jumping. I mean, they do leave the ground, but there's not a whole lot of vertical lift and they don't seem to move any faster than Dragonborn sprints. I've certainly never managed to *hit* anything from horseback. I'll still ride a horse once in a while, but usually it's "borrowed" and I'm doing it to look at the scenery, not because I have a pressing engagement anywhere in Skyrim province.

I think fast travel is based on walking speeds because someone at Bethesda thought, "no one is ever going to run all the way from X to Y." I still fast travel on any escort mission and several fetch quests, though. I'll certainly do it on any of the Thieves Guild quests from Vex and Devin because, damn, those are repetitive.

Leviting

2014-08-16, 12:37 PM

on horseback, I've found the most effective combat method to be constantly charging slightly to left of my target and hitting it with a charging power attack. It works pretty well, as long as there is nothing in the way. Archery on horseback is awful.

Togath

2014-08-16, 01:57 PM

veti

2014-08-16, 06:20 PM

Divayth Fyr

2014-08-16, 06:30 PM

Armour in Oblivion allegedly reduces the effectiveness of magic, so you might want to take that into consideration.
Once you reach skill level 50 in the chosen armor type the reduction is a grand 5%.

Personally I can't be bothered with heavy armour. It's just so... heavy. It's always painful having to decide what loot not to take, and I like to minimise my base carrying weight.
In the end neither type encumbers you at all (at least the set you're wearing) and heavy will always have a higher durability.

Triaxx

2014-08-16, 06:40 PM

For a stealthy mage in Oblivion, completely forgo armor. Shield is completely weightless, and levels your skill. It's also a consistent, flat damage reduction. Plus the level fifty thing is kind of a non issue since you want to minimize getting hit at all. Light armor would be the go to if you want armor. My mages usually ran around in clothes though.

The trick to hitting from horseback is to release the attack button just as the head is passing the target. I use a Two handed sword, since it's got a slightly longer reach, makes it easier to hit. Those bears, trolls and giants? No problem because you've hit them and then moved away before they recover.

Leviting

2014-08-16, 06:48 PM

It's not the weight of heavy armor, it is the movement speed. I feel really dumb having to strip naked to run around town at a reasonable pace. That, and I want at least 75% spell effectiveness at any given time. Plus, with light armor, you can both run away from guards and survive a hit from one as you pass by.

Triaxx

2014-08-16, 06:59 PM

If I'm running from Guards, I'm using slow fog. Which is frost magic in an area with a slow effect on it. Very useful for falling back out of reach.

Ailurus

2014-08-16, 07:08 PM

Light or heavy armour in Oblivion?
Been having trouble which to get as one of my class skills on my current character...
On one hand, I can move and sneak better in light armour at low skill levels, on the other, heavy armour has some very powerful items, if I'm remembering correctly(especially shields*).
The character is a stealth magic user(with the thief birthsign), using spells for ranged attacks and unarmed in melee. I'm also planning on using alteration and restoration spells and enchantments to buff them.

*though I can't remember if shield enchants actually have any effect if you're fighting unarmed.

(note that all of this assumes no mods. I know there's several out there that significantly overhaul the spell effectiveness system)

Well, if you're primarily using magic, then robes and such are at least considering. Unlike Skyrim, wearing armor in Oblivion does impact your spellcasting, with a minimum of 5% reduction in effectiveness at 100 armor skill (larger reductions with lower armor skills). It probably won't impact you all that much if you're primarily relying on buffs, but offensive magic takes a noticeable hit if you wear armor (especially anything from the illusion school). The flip side is that enchanting is a little more versatile, and you get access to spell making later in the game which can let you make buffs which are simultaneously more useful, interesting and powerful than Skyrim's oakflesh line. It is quite possible to get to the 85% armor cap in Oblivion with just (enchanted) clothes and buffs, while in Skyrim (barring infinite loops) you're not going to get anywhere near the cap (well, except for the Dragonhide spell).

If you want to use armor instead of enchanted clothing, it mostly comes down to aesthetics. At 100 skill, both types are roughly equally protective (assuming equivalent 'tiers'). Light offers a slight speed advantage over heavy while you're leveling up, (though both are equally fast at max skill). It is a little easier to sneak in light, but that becomes irrelevant at sneak skill 50 (which I'm guessing you'll be at very soon since you started with the thief birthsign). Heavy's main advantage is that it tends to be noticeably more durable than light, so you'll be spending less time repairing. (Some of the lower-level light armors will seem to be breaking near-instantly at high levels, regardless of what buffs and enchantments you're using). And Heavy will also offer quite a bit more protection while leveling up.

Edit:

Once you reach skill level 50 in the chosen armor type the reduction is a grand 5%.
That 5% can be very significant, depending on the spells you use however. Sure, 5% off your fireball is probably not worth complaining about. But, any spell that affects creatures up to level X is going to get hammered by it. Take the Turn Undead spell for example - even with the spellmaking alter, the highest level undead you'll ever be able to turn while wearing armor is level 23. (Max level you can select is 25, then reduced by 5%). However, with 100% spell effectiveness, that level 25 turn undead spell will actually get scaled up and be able to affect any undead in the game. So, if you're planning on using any spell that has a level requirement, your options are no armor or having your spell stop working all too quickly.

Togath

2014-08-16, 07:22 PM

Ailurus

2014-08-16, 07:55 PM

Do shields provide their enchantment and armour if fighting unarmed?
My main reasons for heavy armour were shields like the Grey Aegis (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Grey_Aegis) or Spell Breaker (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_Breaker_%28Oblivion%29)(well... mainly the Aegis).

I *believe* they provide the enchantments always, but only provide the armor rating when wielded. I'm not sure about how they impact spell effectiveness (though it should be easy enough for you to check that in-game - just equip some random shield off a bandit and see if it moves the spell effectiveness bar when equipped but not wielded).

(And, personal opinion, don't bother with the grey aegis. Sure, you *can* get it using a glitch and two artifacts, but just breaking the combat system that badly will suck most of the fun out of the game. And, 50% magic resistance + 65% spell reflect + 26% spell absorb (mundane ring + spelldrinker amulet + Spellbreaker) will leave you mostly safe from mages [you'll end up taking about 16% net damage in the end] while being a lot more fun than just saying "lol, immune" to everything. [Also, note that even with the Aegis, you will not be immune to the lava in the oblivion gates if that was part of your reason for wanting it]

And there's plenty of other ways to screw with if not outright break the combat system (http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:End_Game_Optimizing) if you really want to go down that road.)

Triaxx

2014-08-17, 07:19 AM

DigoDragon

2014-08-17, 08:17 AM

I feel really dumb having to strip naked to run around town at a reasonable pace.

Even with the context this made me stop and double-take. XD

Kaio Ken
cast spell, break face
Very handy

I'm sure the 'very handy' pun wasn't intentional, but I laughed.

I never got into hand-to-hand combat myself. Shield-bashing and bow slapping though, that's fun to me. Just go around shoving people off ledges. I could do that all day.

Recaiden

2014-08-17, 02:21 PM

... I think I'm just going to marry Morrowind since I love it so much.

This is clearly the best option anyway.

Gracht Grabmaw

2014-08-17, 02:38 PM

If you really want a nasty trick, I like a spell called Kaio Ken, basically two or three seconds of 100 Fortify Hand to Hand. It's basically cast spell, break face. Very handy if you get caught by something too strong to kill normally. I mixed it with the same duration to enhance endurance and it worked well.

I made exactly that kind of thing for my khajiit hand-to-hand specialist. He had also had another one set to Fortify Acrobatics, which seemed like a really good idea at the time until I realized the spell ran out before his feet hit the ground again after a jump, so every attempt to use it resulted in some pretty harsh falling damage.

Togath

2014-08-17, 03:52 PM

I'll probably go with my usual no armour skill then.
Leaving me with;
Alteration
Acrobatics
Athletics
Restoration
Hand-To-Hand
Sneak(considering dropping it, since I'd been thinking of doing the Knights of the Nine prior to the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, so I'll likely have time to level it)
And.. A blank slot(destruction maybe? or perhaps mysticism).

Race-wise I'm torn between an Argonian(hand-to-hand, and some stealth and magic buffs), Imperial(hand-to-hand again, and several general buffs... A bit more of a jack of all trades), or a mod added race*.
Doesn't help that I like all three visually. :3

*(+15 destruction, +10 mysticism, +5 light amour, sneak, and blade. Low endurance[-10], luck[-5] and personalty[-10], high intellect[+15]. It also has the khajiit's night vision spell. Though the stats/skills are from memory so they may be slightly off)

veti

2014-08-17, 04:06 PM

I made exactly that kind of thing for my khajiit hand-to-hand specialist. He had also had another one set to Fortify Acrobatics, which seemed like a really good idea at the time until I realized the spell ran out before his feet hit the ground again after a jump, so every attempt to use it resulted in some pretty harsh falling damage.

I've owned Dragonborn since it came out, and played through it at least 3 or 4 times... but it was only yesterday I ran across the dude in Solstheim who has that problem. I just sat there for about five minutes, feeling warm and fuzzy at remembering one of my very first non-random encounters in Morrowind.

Which was no doubt what the devs intended...

One thing that keeps me from replaying Morrowind is - knowing all that stuff. I know exactly where to find that guy, and how to use his scrolls safely. I wish I could magically forget that, so I could have the fun of working it out again...

Sneak(considering dropping it, since I'd been thinking of doing the Knights of the Nine prior to the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, so I'll likely have time to level it)
And.. A blank slot(destruction maybe? or perhaps mysticism).

Sneak is useful for everyone, IMO. There's no reason why you can't use it, and level it, with Knights of the Nine - sneaking doesn't give you infamy. Just try to refrain from stealing stuff.

For the blank slot - Conjuration is always useful. No matter how worn out your equipment gets, you'll know a good weapon is only a handwave away.

Togath

2014-08-17, 04:27 PM

I'll probably keep sneak in slot then, especially since as as long as I don't get caught, stealing wont give me infamy.
For magic... How good are the conjured minions? Given that I'm going for an unarmed character, who will be wearing clothes/robes most of the time, equipment wearing out unlikely to be much of an issue, and it is one of the fastest/the fastest leveling skill/s*, so I should be able to get it up fairly fast even if it isn't a major skill.

*for skills that have a "gain xp per use" effect.

druid91

2014-08-17, 04:43 PM

In Oblivion conjuration is anywhere from horribly OP to decent.

It's got a much WIDER range of summons than skyrim for example, and I haven't had enough experience with Morrowind to really make a comparison.

Leviting

2014-08-17, 06:00 PM

In Oblivion you can summon a Daedroth, a journeyman level bipedal fire-ball breathing alligator thing, which stays practical even at lvl 100 conjuration. Later, you get things like wraiths, which are immune to nonmagic/nonsilver/nondaedric weapons, and liches, which debuff your enemy to death. Also, you can summon entire suits of daedric armor, and are can draw daedric daggers out of thin air at a relatively low level.

Winter_Wolf

2014-08-17, 07:18 PM

I've owned Dragonborn since it came out, and played through it at least 3 or 4 times... but it was only yesterday I ran across the dude in Solstheim who has that problem. I just sat there for about five minutes, feeling warm and fuzzy at remembering one of my very first non-random encounters in Morrowind.

Oh man that guy. I remember waiting for the gotcha and figuratively tentatively sneaking up to him and "poking him with a stick". I just thought it was so random.

Once my dovahkiin went to Solstheim, she never got around to heading back to Skyrim to stop Alduin. I also managed to break the main quest in Dragonborn somehow, and I don't think it was mod related. It might be that you can't pre-emptively do things to all those stones before heading to the temple. Maybe I didn't talk to the right people before heading there. I don't really know, I was too busy having a blast tromping all over the island. Because I started a new game with different mods, as far as her reality goes, she let Alduin destroy the world while she was camping out in the ash fields.

Nilehus

2014-08-17, 07:19 PM

Well, I'm extremely irritated.

Finally got Dragonborn, had the whole dramatic showdown with Miraak... and right at the final battle, he's supposed to absorb a dragon's soul to heal himself. I absorbed it instead, for whatever reason.

Now he's sitting there, ethereal, staring at me. Internet basically says "Sucks to be you" if you have this glitch.

Screw it, I'll just force the game to say the quest is over. Grumble grumble grumble.

veti

2014-08-17, 09:51 PM

Once my dovahkiin went to Solstheim, she never got around to heading back to Skyrim to stop Alduin. I also managed to break the main quest in Dragonborn somehow, and I don't think it was mod related. It might be that you can't pre-emptively do things to all those stones before heading to the temple. Maybe I didn't talk to the right people before heading there. I don't really know, I was too busy having a blast tromping all over the island.

Pretty sure the main Dragonborn quest is designed on the assumption that you'll go to sleep fairly early during your stay on Solstheim. Then you're supposed to head into the temple and meet Frea, and the quest is on track. If you (a) don't go to sleep, or (b) don't find Frea, I guess you might have the opportunity to break all sorts of things before you trigger the mandatory dialogues to make the highly-railroady plot work properly...

Winter_Wolf

2014-08-17, 09:54 PM

@ veti: Yeh, I think I might never have found Frea, or at least did something terrible like managing to free the Skaal "before it was time". I think I slept, but sometimes I just wait and call it "sleep" so that might have happened a time or three.

Unrelated to that, I discovered HiAlgoBoost, but I can't seem to get it to work. I have a laptop with Nvidia Optimus, I have the patch. I have also SKSE 1.7.1 and am using TESV Savegame Manager.
Hardware specs: Win 7x64 Pro, 8 GB RAM, Nvidia 610M GPU (which despite getting a lot of flak manages well enough now that I've tweaked a few things with Nvidia Inspector) and am bypassing the crappy Intel HD 3000 onboard to the extent that it's possible.

I've tried putting the things in the Skyrim directory, renaming the d3d9 files as necessary (AFTER making backups of all the "pristine" ones!) and honestly I can't see a difference. Which kind of leads me to believe that I'm doing something wrong, with the HiAlgoBoost.ini if nothing else (and probably something else too). I've tried going straight from the skse_loader and not using the Savegame Manager at all, but that didn't do anything either.

I'm okay with the graphics as they are, but I'm really interested in evening out my FPS to a solid 30 (I have it capped because otherwise stupid jerky-laggy-jumpy things happen). Swamps north of Morthal and the forests of Riften get me down to 20ish FPS at times. Does anyone have exact step by step that they've used to get things working? Everything keeps saying "works with SKSE" but no one mentioned if I have to do anything to the HiAlgoBoost.ini or if I do what I'd have to put exactly.

Ailurus

2014-08-17, 10:13 PM

Pretty sure the main Dragonborn quest is designed on the assumption that you'll go to sleep fairly early during your stay on Solstheim. Then you're supposed to head into the temple and meet Frea, and the quest is on track. If you (a) don't go to sleep, or (b) don't find Frea, I guess you might have the opportunity to break all sorts of things before you trigger the mandatory dialogues to make the highly-railroady plot work properly...

You sure? Not saying you're wrong, but I've gone through the Dragonborn quest twice with no issues, and I essentially never sleep, to the point where my Dovahkiin may as well have replaced their blood with No-doz. Unless I'm waiting to talk to a particular person or shopkeeper who had the unmitigated gall to go to sleep for the night, or a quest specifically tells you to sleep (which I don't recall the Dragonborn quests doing, and UESP seems to confirm that), I'll generally be pulling all-nighters.

Of course, the other possibility is that since I've never played Dragonborn without the unofficial patch installed, its possible that fixed whatever glitch existed.

Togath

2014-08-17, 10:35 PM

If I remember correctly, messing with the stones can cause major issues with the expansion.

veti

2014-08-17, 11:29 PM

You sure? Not saying you're wrong, but I've gone through the Dragonborn quest twice with no issues, and I essentially never sleep, to the point where my Dovahkiin may as well have replaced their blood with No-doz.

No, not sure sure. It's just that 'sleeping' on Solstheim basically throws you into the main quest with a huge "plot THIS WAY, doofus >>>>>> " marker, so I guess that's how it's designed to work, even though there may be other ways to get onto the same track.

But sleeping's probably just a shortcut to finding Frea. I'm pretty sure she is essential, though - I'll be surprised if you can get through it without talking to her and the Skaal shaman at the right time.

It's a concession I make to roleplaying - any time I'm in a settlement after nightfall, unless I have something urgent to steal, or some plot device actually intruding on my immediate vision, I'll find a bed (probably at the inn, unless I have a house hereabouts) and sleep until morning. It's a bit erratic, but my character seems to average about 5-6 hours a night - enough to function, although he'll probably go psychotic in a few years...

Triaxx

2014-08-18, 06:10 AM

First time I reached Miraak, I did it on the back of that first Dragon that greets you, and it seems I'm not supposed to do that. Oops.

NineThePuma

2014-08-18, 06:16 AM

Yeah, try not to do awesome stuff near heavily scripted battles. It goes poorly.

DigoDragon

2014-08-18, 07:45 AM

Yeah, try not to do awesome stuff near heavily scripted battles. It goes poorly.

Yeah, seems the game designers don't have experience being Dungeon Masters. :smallbiggrin:

NineThePuma

2014-08-18, 07:54 AM

Nah, I think they do, it's just that the game's coders have to rely on certain assumptions.

Gracht Grabmaw

2014-08-18, 10:41 AM

Oh dear god, I completely forgot how inept the AI in Oblivion was. I'm playing an Argonian stealthy archer with some restoration and alteration magic right now and I barely even need a melee weapon, if an enemy ever gets close enough I can just literally run circles around them and knock them over. Hand-to-hand isn't even one of my class skills but any melee duel still fills like I'm Brock Lesnar fighting a drunken hobo.

DomaDoma

2014-08-18, 12:27 PM

So, I was browsing Elder Scrolls Wikia to make sure my Lathenil fanfic wasn't going to trip up on anything major lore-wise - which it completely was going to, so it was worth it just in that - but guys, if they're going with that technically extra-canonical "creation is the worst thing that ever happened to the world, so let's see if we can't undo it" thing, then Elder Scrolls VI absolutely has to take place in (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Towers) either High Rock or Hammerfell. (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Illiac_Bay) And Hammerfell would make a good deal more narrative sense. And I am so, so ready for that.

Well, at least I've deluded myself I am. One thing I really should have learned from playing Oblivion and Skyrim back-to-back is that it's not healthy to live through too much history at a go.

DigoDragon

2014-08-19, 07:43 AM

Nah, I think they do, it's just that the game's coders have to rely on certain assumptions.

Well then some of those assumptions are iffy. :smallbiggrin:

Though a comical story of the Dragonborn having meta knowledge of quest bugs and getting around them would be kind of funny.

"Okay, I'm in Solstheim so let's see my checklist. Hmm, locate someone named Frea... ignore Skaal, find a place to sleep to advance the plot. Okay, let's do this!"
*Busts open the door to the INN*
"Gimme a room for the night! I'm on a quest and it's nap time!"

druid91

2014-08-19, 02:50 PM

veti

2014-08-19, 04:10 PM

Well then some of those assumptions are iffy. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, they're very iffy. But in software development, you've got to make them anyway.

What makes things worse is the increasingly-narrativist philosophy of the games. The designers have become, I think, unhealthily obsessed with "telling a story", forgetting the "open world, freedom" philosophy of earlier games. You will do things in the expected order, or not at all.

Certainly the fully-voiced dialogue isn't doing them any favours. Writing alternative lines for multiple possible contingencies/orders of events isn't that hard. Working out consequences to other quests, of the player screwing up with a major questline - starts to get a bit hairy, but it's still manageable. But recording all those alternate lines of dialogue, and fitting all those recordings within a reasonable disc footprint, is just ridiculously expensive. And don't even get me started on testing...

Divayth Fyr

2014-08-19, 04:55 PM

And don't even get me started on testing...
You're not suggesting Bethesda does those, are you? :smalltongue:

Nilehus

2014-08-19, 05:33 PM

I really dislike heavily scripted events that break the game for no reason beyond 'it's pretty!' Yes, the final confrontation with Miraak was very atmospheric... until he froze in place, completely untouchable, and stared at me. And he did it again when I reloaded. The next dozen times.

Experimenting and pushing the bounds of gaming is fine, but if it's supposed to be a big climactic encounter, one of the two biggest climaxes of the game... Bleh.

veti

2014-08-19, 06:48 PM

You're not suggesting Bethesda does those, are you? :smalltongue:

Oh, they test all right. They tested the bejayzus out of the original game - otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it now, as it would have sunk without trace within a week of release. You can tell what they tested, because those things work really well: you can go through virtually any quest at any time, regardless of what else you may or may not have done; your followers, pets and mounts will behave (reasonably) predictably; pausing the game, fast travel, saves and autosaves, switching weapons or spells, quaffing potions, using spells and items - all these things work really quite well.

(Too well, in at least one case: I'm pretty sure there's a test condition that says "you must be able to complete any quest you've started, no matter what, unless it has an explicit 'fail' condition", and that's why there are so many unkillable NPCs.)

Sure there are things they overlooked, but you have to bear in mind that testing is expensive as heck. You have to pay for a bunch of people to sit and play the game, keeping meticulous records and sending bug reports to a bunch of other people (whom you're also paying) to fix the bugs they find, and all these people are sick of the sight of it and saying things like "this interface is ****e, is it too late to reduce the font size?", to which the answer is (always) YES!!! (because that would invalidate a whole bunch of the tests you've already done to make sure the menus can at least be used on various sizes and shapes of monitor). And all this while, you're getting zero revenue because the game still hasn't been released yet, although marketing has set a launch date that you absolutely positively have to meet at all costs...

So eventually management will just say "OK, at the beginning we were finding 100 bugs a day, now we're down to just 30 over the past week, and only 4 of those were Severity 3 or higher... screw it, that's a wrap." And everyone will cheer, because even though they know it's still buggy, they're all sick of it and want to get on with that sexy new project they've heard about.

For the expansions, I think the test phase is considerably shorter: more along the lines of "make sure every quest is completable, but don't worry about completing it with every possible character, tactic, follower and combination of weapons."

(Sorry, I did warn you not to get me started. This is what I do for a living. Although not for Bethesda, obviously.)

Winter_Wolf

2014-08-19, 08:59 PM

So, today I noticed that I am apparently missing some textures for the guardian/standing stones. At least the three by Riverwood and the Lady stone at Lake Ilinalta. As in, super smooth top and two bands, and the base are all smooth, plasticy, purple/lavendar/blue. Other than that, the stones are all still functional.

To my knowledge I have not installed any mods or textures that have fiddled with these stones (at least recently anyway). I am using the hi-res texture DLC so that could be it (even though I don't recall it being an issue before) and SMIM. Rather than randomly start breaking things ('cause that's what I do when I try to fix 'em, it seems), I thought I check to see if anyone else has encountered this and what they did about it.

NineThePuma

2014-08-19, 09:08 PM

double check that you've properly installed the DLC.

DigoDragon

2014-08-20, 07:45 AM

... I seem to recall my summoned lich exploding everything to death. To the point where I lost corpses to ragdoll physics pretty frequently.

Lately when I sneak attack bandits indoors with my Khajiit archer, a lot of them fall through the floor. Hilarious. Their weapon doesn't fall, so I can still loot them, but wow these bandits sure clean up after their corpses. :smallbiggrin:

What makes things worse is the increasingly-narrativist philosophy of the games. The designers have become, I think, unhealthily obsessed with "telling a story", forgetting the "open world, freedom" philosophy of earlier games.

I'll agree. The recorded voices are nice, but yeah, it has been a problem. I'm willing to give up the voices if it means quest dialog can branch better.
I'd be fine if the only voiced characters are your companions and super important NPCs.

You're not suggesting Bethesda does those, are you? :smalltongue:

Ouch. :smallsmile:

one of the two biggest climaxes of the game... Bleh.

The other being? ...Aduin?

Togath

2014-08-20, 07:54 AM

I have often wondered how effective computer generated voices would be.

Landis963

2014-08-20, 11:17 AM

Morty

2014-08-20, 03:05 PM

It seems that SkyRe's Light Weapon tree includes perks for fighting with a one-handed weapon in the main hand and nothing, or a spell, in your off-hand. Maybe I'll go this route instead of using two daggers.

veti

2014-08-20, 04:00 PM

Agreed. Furthermore, I'm placing my illusory money on The Elder Scrolls VI: Adamantine as the title.

I'm thinking...

Whatever the next game is, it's got to have some big eyecatching gimmick for the commercials. 'Oblivion' was the first game I saw TV commercials for, and it majored on the scenery and landscape detail. 'Skyrim' had - dragons. I can't, offhand, think of anything more eyecatching than a dragon. The commercials look like movie trailers: they're not about gameplay, or sandboxiness, they're certainly not about lore. They're about eye candy.

Those commercials aren't aimed at established fans, they're aimed at people who've never heard of Tamriel or its provinces, much less the Thalmor. The name of the game may be something lore-based, but the eyecatching gimmick can't be.

So what could it be? What trumps dragons?

druid91

2014-08-20, 05:25 PM

Recaiden

2014-08-20, 06:19 PM

The return of Numidium?

You mean like in
Morrowind?

Landis963

2014-08-20, 09:03 PM

I'm thinking...

Whatever the next game is, it's got to have some big eyecatching gimmick for the commercials. 'Oblivion' was the first game I saw TV commercials for, and it majored on the scenery and landscape detail. 'Skyrim' had - dragons. I can't, offhand, think of anything more eyecatching than a dragon. The commercials look like movie trailers: they're not about gameplay, or sandboxiness, they're certainly not about lore. They're about eye candy.

Those commercials aren't aimed at established fans, they're aimed at people who've never heard of Tamriel or its provinces, much less the Thalmor. The name of the game may be something lore-based, but the eyecatching gimmick can't be.

So what could it be? What trumps dragons?

A giant bronze golem would be something to see, but I'm thinking a badass battle sequence in and around the halls of the Adamantine tower, possibly with reality bending itself away around the fighters, ending with a glory shot of the climactic duel at the very top. Something big, loud, flashy, and eyecatching that looks enticing and doesn't make your eyes bleed.

Winter_Wolf

2014-08-20, 09:34 PM

double check that you've properly installed the DLC.

Completely re-installed the DLC. Didn't work, and then I made a horrible, horrible mistake and used Steam to verify game cache. :smallannoyed: I suspect all my hard work in tweaking my game to be just so is gonna be wasted after I do a freaking full re-install, all because I was getting bugged over a few missing textures on standing stones which I almost never see/use. Son of a b----.

veti

2014-08-20, 10:36 PM

A giant bronze golem would be something to see, but I'm thinking a badass battle sequence in and around the halls of the Adamantine tower, possibly with reality bending itself away around the fighters, ending with a glory shot of the climactic duel at the very top. Something big, loud, flashy, and eyecatching that looks enticing and doesn't make your eyes bleed.

Yeah, I was thinking similarly. Large-scale battle sequences would be something new to the genre.

Skyrim can only handle, what is it, about 20 (?) combatants on screen at once - that's why, in the civil war battles, the enemies come in waves. A battle where you got to see several hundred howling, let's say, Nords storming the walls of a city defended by a comparable number of Altmer, would be both cinematic and new.

Unfortunately, I foresee yet more ultra-linear quest programming to bring that about...

Nilehus

2014-08-20, 10:57 PM

Unfortunately, I foresee yet more ultra-linear quest programming to bring that about...

Don't forget becoming Archmage in 30 minutes. :smallwink:

Leviting

2014-08-20, 11:07 PM

The problem with 100+ mooks is that the force will either be absolutely unstoppable without the use of a plot device, or be so pitiful that a couple well placed ice-storms will cut the army in half. That, or the entire army will just exist as a cutscene entity to be annihilated before the fighting starts.

DomaDoma

2014-08-20, 11:21 PM

Or maybe they introduce real-time strategy elements? I hope not, for the sake of my being able to complete the game, but I think a lot of people would dig that.

Landis963

2014-08-20, 11:34 PM

Not really, just have cutscene-esque things playing while you go through a mid-battlefield quest, like what the LoTR movies did during large-scale battle shots. During early quests, have the Thalmor win each encounter, during endgame quests have the Hammerfell warriors win each encounter. Just insert a random number generator somewhere in there for the stuff in between.

veti

2014-08-21, 10:27 PM

The problem with 100 mooks is that the force will either be absolutely unstoppable without the use of a plot device, or be so pitiful that a couple well placed ice-storms will cut the army in half. That, or the entire army will just exist as a cutscene entity to be annihilated before the fighting starts.

An unstoppable force at low level becomes eminently stoppable when you're high enough level to throw spells like that around, and that's how it should be. If you play the battle scenes too soon, you'll have a hard time winning, so it really needs to be possible to lose the battle without losing the whole game.

But that's not hard: Skyrim allows you to give away cities during Season Unending, then retake them in the civil war. If you lose the battle first time, that just means you have to refight it later.

Ailurus

2014-08-22, 12:58 PM

Yeah, I was thinking similarly. Large-scale battle sequences would be something new to the genre.

Skyrim can only handle, what is it, about 20 (?) combatants on screen at once - that's why, in the civil war battles, the enemies come in waves. A battle where you got to see several hundred howling, let's say, Nords storming the walls of a city defended by a comparable number of Altmer, would be both cinematic and new.

Unfortunately, I foresee yet more ultra-linear quest programming to bring that about...

Well, from a purely technical point of view there's a reason that there hasn't been much large-scale combat - the consoles just didn't have the memory to handle it. You can see the same wave design decisions being made in the Dragon age games and others. Hence why Bethesda was forced to instance the cities going from Morrowind to Oblivion, while the pc versions of Skyrim and Oblivion can support open cities mods with no problem (assuming you don't try to run said mods on on a min-spec PC since it just makes the whole game crawl).

Whenever TES-6 comes out, hopefully the increased hardware on the Xbone and PS4 will let them get some larger-scale events in there, especially assuming FO4 comes out before TES6 (since it would let them get some more experience with the hardware). But, unfortunately, part of me wants to agree with you on more script-heavy linear events being the majority of a new game simply because that's easier to implement.

NineThePuma

2014-08-22, 03:16 PM

At the risk of PC Master Race, does anyone have the specs for PS4/XBone?

Triaxx

2014-08-23, 09:44 PM

What specs do you mean?

I love Skyrim somedays and somedays I hate Skyrim. Blitzed through Meridia's temple, killed the final boss in two tries. First time, my own Frost Rune got me. Second time I got it in the choke point and laid down the lightning.

Then I spent five tries clearing out the much smaller Pinemoon cave for Sybille Stentor. Kept getting cornered and one shotted by the Master Vampire. Urg. Same level character, same tactics.

Of course, the Ice Spike kill cams make it all worthwhile though.

NineThePuma

2014-08-23, 09:52 PM

Vampires have frost resistance, which stacks with any frost resistance from being a Nord. Try using Fire.

And I mean hardware specs. How much RAM, processing power, etc.

veti

2014-08-24, 04:58 PM

Vampires have frost resistance, which stacks with any frost resistance from being a Nord. Try using Fire.

Yeah, destruction magic is a pain like that. Cold is the most powerful anti-warrior weapon, except against those who are resistant or immune to it - which is most things in Skyrim. Or you can have electricity, but that's shockingly, no pun intended, expensive in magicka. Or fire, which is good against most things (except dragons, and Dunmer, but there aren't too many of those around), but only damages health. And as an added annoyance, also makes things run away.

Why isn't there a line of spells based on poison (which presumably wouldn't work against undead...), or just "throwing stones at the enemy"?

And I mean hardware specs. How much RAM, processing power, etc.

They're easy to find: PS4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_technical_specifications), XBone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One). But the raw numbers won't tell you much. You'd need to look at processing benchmarks. I'm sure there are lots of those knocking around somewhere, but no idea how to find some you could trust.

Triaxx

2014-08-24, 05:17 PM

That sort of thing is the reason I have Midas Magic installed. Gives me more options than blast or useless disabling spells.

I actually have both frost and lightning, partially because I got tired of FIRE everything. If it's not dying, use more fire. Strangely, Fire in one hand and Frost in the other is an incredibly potent combination. Fire makes things take more damage, and frost slows them down. So the frost slows them for the fire to hit more and the fire makes the frost hurt more. Doesn't work the same with lightning, but the two basic spells are fantastic.

And I was using lightning, but I couldn't pull just one or two guys, and I'd finish the minions and walk straight into the boss, or suddenly go third person and get killed by him.

veti

2014-08-24, 06:38 PM

Blitzed through Meridia's temple, killed the final boss in two tries.

I think the boss of Meridia's temple is one of those annoying gits who deliberately employs under-powered minions, just to lure you into a false sense of superiority. Then it turns out he himself is - quite hard.

Now I've kinda got used to it, I find it very cool, the way the game can spring tough fights on you with very little warning. (Like if you trek up to Shearpoint expecting to deal with just another pesky flying lizard. I must've spent upwards of ten minutes, after taking the dragon down, trading ranged attacks with Krosis. It gave me a real sense of achievement to win that fight solo at level 20.)

Other times, you're expecting a tough fight, and it turns out your opponent is little more than just another mook. Or they're not even there. I Have Been Trolled (I'm looking at you, Delphine).

Nilehus

2014-08-24, 07:12 PM

Other times, you're expecting a tough fight, and it turns out your opponent is little more than just another mook. Or they're not even there. I Have Been Trolled (I'm looking at you, Delphine).

You mean like the entire buildup of the main quest talking about how badass Alduin is? :smalltongue:

I'm tempted next playthrough to not level Smithing at all, just to make things a bit more fair. I do enjoy feeling the power my character's worked for, but... it's boring being an invincible, unstoppable hammer of justice.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-24, 10:42 PM

That sort of thing is the reason I have Midas Magic installed. Gives me more options than blast or useless disabling spells.

Never played a full Destruction mage, but I have never felt a lack for spells in vanilla Skyrim.

Triaxx

2014-08-25, 06:12 AM

I've played a couple and while there are some great spells, a lot of them are kind of lack luster. Worse, all destruction magic is one of the three elements. So it all feels kind of the same. I like Midas though, which gives me a poison spell option, and a steam spell. It also gives me a cure disease spell, Night-eye, and the hilariously epic Force Push/Pull spells which are like a mage version of Unrelenting Force.

Those, plus the spells from SkyRe make it a lot more interesting. I used to play with Balanced Magic, but I removed it for SkyRe. It didn't seem to work with the reconfigured perks.

Kareeah_Indaga

2014-08-25, 09:47 PM

New Creation Kit question: how do I attach scars to an NPC? I see warpaints under tinting, and I can find scars individually, but no way to place them on the NPC faces.

I have often wondered how effective computer generated voices would be.

They had those for a while in ESO beta and...the answer is not very. I kid you not, I was hearing the computer voices in my sleep. @_@

I'm going to disagree on the next game being in High Rock/Hammerfell though. My guess is somewhere in the Aldmeri Dominion. That's the REAL reason Falinesti rooted itself—so the game developers don't have to animate the tree moving. ;) Also High Rock/Hammerfell already had games set there.

veti

2014-08-26, 05:01 PM

They had those for a while in ESO beta and...the answer is not very. I kid you not, I was hearing the computer voices in my sleep. @_@

I'd guess that computer voices are OK when they're delivering bland information in a calm, level voice (like Siri), but when they try to act, that requires a whole different kind of programming, which no-one has worked out in anything like enough detail yet. They'll get there, one day. But it is not this day.

I'm going to disagree on the next game being in High Rock/Hammerfell though. My guess is somewhere in the Aldmeri Dominion. That's the REAL reason Falinesti rooted itself—so the game developers don't have to animate the tree moving. ;) Also High Rock/Hammerfell already had games set there.

Well, I still like the idea of setting in Summerset. But I don't really mind where.

However, they've already recycled Cyrodiil as a setting (for TESI/IV), so there's no hard-and-fast rule saying they can't reuse anywhere else.

Kareeah_Indaga

2014-08-26, 05:42 PM

I'd guess that computer voices are OK when they're delivering bland information in a calm, level voice (like Siri), but when they try to act, that requires a whole different kind of programming, which no-one has worked out in anything like enough detail yet. They'll get there, one day. But it is not this day.

Sadly not. :smallannoyed:

My big concern for the next game is that they're just going to sweep the Last Dragonborn under the rug like they did the Champion of Cyrodiil. I'm not sure how they would avoid doing it however. (Unless he/she squashes the Aldmeri Dominion and the next game is another jump forward--but I'd kind of like to do that squashing on screen. :smalltongue:)

DomaDoma

2014-08-26, 07:33 PM

Sadly not. :smallannoyed:

My big concern for the next game is that they're just going to sweep the Last Dragonborn under the rug like they did the Champion of Cyrodiil. I'm not sure how they would avoid doing it however. (Unless he/she squashes the Aldmeri Dominion and the next game is another jump forward--but I'd kind of like to do that squashing on screen. :smalltongue:)

I don't particularly care for the Champion's resolution, simply because it's not what my character would do, but "swept under the rug" isn't the phrase for it. The Nerevarine, on the other hand... I mean, I barely know the first thing about Morrowind, but even I can tell you could hardly have a worse sendoff than random NPC dialogue saying your character ran off to Akavir for no stated reason and was never seen again.

Triaxx

2014-08-26, 07:46 PM

I feel bad, I never played Morrowwind, and yet I can't get into it.

On the other hand, setting a game in Akavir would be interesting and get away from the stagnation.

DomaDoma

2014-08-26, 08:08 PM

No, I'm going to have to say no to Akavir. See: on-screen squashing, above.

Leviting

2014-08-26, 08:22 PM

Well, when you are a physical god, what else is there to do besides explore? Sure, stop the Thalmor is nice, but when you are back in Akavir, I'd doubt you'd hear about it anyway. Regarding the Oblivion Gates, for all we know, the Nerevarine was the one who closed all of the ones that showed up in Akavir.

veti

2014-08-26, 08:59 PM

Well, when you are a physical god, what else is there to do besides explore?

Well, you could instal yourself as an actual god, with a temple and everything. Worked pretty well for Vivec and Almalexia, for a long time at least.

Or you could just settle down and raise a family, although that's probably a recipe for frustration if you're accustomed to being all-powerful... (Also, I have no idea what the implications of having corprus disease are for breeding. Could be nasty.)

The real "screw you" to Morrowind players in Skyrim is the revelation that "ending the blight" was just a way to unleash something far worse on Morrowind. It's a textbook case of Nice Job Breaking It, Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero).

As to setting the next game in Akavir - if they did that, they'd have to, y'know, actually try to tie up some of those loose ends (like what happened to the Nerevarine). I don't see why they'd go out of their way to make that particular rod to beat themselves with, when there's so much potential still left in Tamriel.

Triaxx

2014-08-27, 05:28 AM

In that case, I'd prefer to head south somewhere. Mostly, I'm tired of all the snowy areas. Somewhere like Elsweyr or some other warm place. Valen wood would be interesting, and either one would allow a continuation of the war against the Thalmor.

Morty

2014-08-27, 10:23 AM

I get trying to make Skyrim's combat more interesting, but SkyRe makes it a grindfest. I cranked down the difficulty to the lowest level, but the bandits in Swindler's Den still murder me.

NineThePuma

2014-08-27, 11:17 AM

I switched over to SPERG. While I like Wayfarer, the combat is just so... boring. Tried to make it more dynamic, but it just ended up being less fun

DigoDragon

2014-08-27, 11:22 AM

but the bandits in Swindler's Den still murder me.

I think the hardest part is that open dining area with the tables. Archers can really pin-cushion an unprepared dragonborn.
If that's where your trouble is, try leading as few back through the tunnel. It's pretty narrow and can serve as a good choke point.

Gracht Grabmaw

2014-08-27, 12:34 PM

So... vampire dunmer, how exactly do they react to fire?

NineThePuma

2014-08-27, 02:37 PM

The resistance and weakness stack additively.

veti

2014-08-27, 07:47 PM

Is anyone aware of a quest overhaul for Skyrim that actually injects some sanity and/or nonlinearity and/or complexity into the major faction questlines?

I'm aware of the Civil War Overhaul, but to be honest it's going to take more than that to make me want to play the civil war. I think the absolute minimum I'd demand is "the option to install someone other than Maven as pro-imperial Jarl of Riften, I mean what about Mjoll or Bolli or even Saerlund, and while we're on the subject, why exactly can't I get the Silver-Bloods run out of Markarth as the crooks and traitors they are?" However, it's a strong effort. It'd be nice if someone could do something similar for some of the other major questlines.

Of the faction questlines:

The College of Winterhold's is just silly. From freshman to Archmage in one four-minute lesson and about a week's adventuring? What is this, some sort of sick marketing stunt?
The Thieves' Guild's is just as silly. In this case I actually find the questline reasonably satisfying, but the story underlying it makes no sense at all, for reasons dwelt on at some length here (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422).
The Companions' is marginally more reasonable, but the blindingly fast progress from newbie to the Circle to Harbinger is still pretty implausible.
The Dark Brotherhood's is OK, except for the bit where I'd rather take the "kill them all" option than actually join this band of thugs.
I think the Dawnguard's is the only faction questline I can really respect, and even then I have to question why they send me out on such vital missions as "reading the Elder Scroll" with only Serana, whom they make a big show of distrusting, to watch my back.

Any mods that address - well, any of those issues?

Nilehus

2014-08-27, 08:03 PM

There is an option to kill the Brotherhood. After you get snatched and brought to the cabin, attack Astrid instead. From there, you get to wipe out the whole lot.

NineThePuma

2014-08-27, 08:06 PM

ESF Companions forces you to actually partake in side quests between major missions, makes it feel more organic.

Your issues with the Dark Brotherhood sound like a personal problem.

It's not forced, but you can actually grab like three different members of the dawnguard as followers. They're not particularly in depth, but they're there.

The Archmage thing IS a publicity stunt. It's been gone over several times in the past of the thread.

The Thieves Guild questline I personally found fine, and I find the picking apart of the quest to be fairly insulting on the whole.

veti

2014-08-27, 09:29 PM

ESF Companions forces you to actually partake in side quests between major missions, makes it feel more organic.

Thanks. I'll look into that.

Your issues with the Dark Brotherhood sound like a personal problem.

I don't really have an issue with them. I kill them, end of story. It just means I don't get much out of what I think is the most reasonable plotline in the core game.

It's not forced, but you can actually grab like three different members of the dawnguard as followers. They're not particularly in depth, but they're there.

Except for the bit where Serana is a compulsory follower at that stage, and you can't take another one, let alone three, while she's with you.

The Thieves Guild questline I personally found fine, and I find the picking apart of the quest to be fairly insulting on the whole.

Insulting, really? I thought many of the same things as I was playing through it for the first time. Gameplay-wise, I don't mind the questline at all - it requires you to do reasonably cool thief-like stuff, although it is undeniable that the (again, compulsory) followers it foists on you at stages have an AI that makes Homer Simpson look like Stephen Hawking. But the logic behind it - just hurts.

Triaxx

2014-08-28, 04:53 AM

UFO, AFT, and EFF all allow you to have multiple followers. I've had problems with UFO being a pain during Dawnguard, but the others are likely better. That way you don't have to have just Serana.

Morty

2014-08-28, 06:14 AM

I switched over to SPERG. While I like Wayfarer, the combat is just so... boring. Tried to make it more dynamic, but it just ended up being less fun

Changing mods would mean I'd have to start over again, which I really don't feel like doing.

I'm aware of the Civil War Overhaul, but to be honest it's going to take more than that to make me want to play the civil war. I think the absolute minimum I'd demand is "the option to install someone other than Maven as pro-imperial Jarl of Riften, I mean what about Mjoll or Bolli or even Saerlund, and while we're on the subject, why exactly can't I get the Silver-Bloods run out of Markarth as the crooks and traitors they are?" However, it's a strong effort. It'd be nice if someone could do something similar for some of the other major questlines.

Out of curiosity, does it introduce some missions more varied than 'go there and kill all Imperials/Stormcloaks"? The Stormcloak questline, at least, mostly boiled down to large-scale battles where identical soldiers shot at the other side a lot and closing in for melee was suicidal.

Gracht Grabmaw

2014-08-28, 08:12 AM

DigoDragon

2014-08-28, 09:19 AM

I don't mind the questline at all - it requires you to do reasonably cool thief-like stuff

My opinion is that there's not enough focus in thievery skills during the questline. Also, the followers toward the end suffer from the usual problem with followers (charging into battle).

I think what bothers me most about the Mage's Guilds in both Oblivion and Skyrim is that 99% of all assignments you get there can be solved just as well if not better by some sword-wielding grunt.

That is true. Enemies resistant to physical harm and puzzles solvable primarily by magic would of made some sense. I did the quest-line twice and hilariously the no-stealth 2-hander Nord character I had just cake-walked his way through it. :smallbiggrin: I so wanted to add my own battle cry of "I cast fist!"

NineThePuma

2014-08-28, 09:32 AM

I think that the thieves guild questline actually intended to show the entire mercer betrayal. Like, the plotline starts before the betrayal, and then they turn up after a job gone bad and mercer takes over the guild and you had a chance to get to know Gallus and Karliah before this **** went down.

Don't get me wrong, it's kind of a super finicky thing, but a lot of the questline makes more sense if you had the pre-betrayal context.

veti

2014-08-28, 06:25 PM

Out of curiosity, does it introduce some missions more varied than 'go there and kill all Imperials/Stormcloaks"? The Stormcloak questline, at least, mostly boiled down to large-scale battles where identical soldiers shot at the other side a lot and closing in for melee was suicidal.

Not sure, because I haven't brought myself to play it yet. The vanilla game has the occasional spying/recon and ambush mission, as well as the stand-up fights, and I imagine the overhaul introduces at least a few more, but can't say for sure.

It's billed as making the game more strategic - as in, you have some say over where and when you fight battles, and the other side may sometimes counter-attack and undo your hard work, and basically the whole thing takes about 20 missions instead of the, what is it, six or seven in vanilla. Of course if they're all the same kinds of stand-up fights, I can see why Bethesda chose to cut it down...

Personally, I found melee a more survivable option than shooting in those battles. Because stealth is impossible, charging into melee means I'm probably only being hit by one or two opponents, which is better than arrows coming at me from half a dozen different directions I can't even see.

I think that the thieves guild questline actually intended to show the entire mercer betrayal. Like, the plotline starts before the betrayal, and then they turn up after a job gone bad and mercer takes over the guild and you had a chance to get to know Gallus and Karliah before this **** went down.

Don't get me wrong, it's kind of a super finicky thing, but a lot of the questline makes more sense if you had the pre-betrayal context.

Oh yes, absolutely - if the whole thing were compressed into a much more recent timeframe, rather than this "25 years ago" nonsense, it would make a lot more sense. Honestly, it'd make more sense if they just said "six months ago", with no other changes. But no, some idiot pulled "25 years" out of their backside, and that's what they went with.

RabidKoala

2014-08-28, 06:40 PM

So anyone have any ideas for the next thread title?

Duck999

2014-08-28, 06:41 PM

I think the 25 years stuff is just to show how long they were tricked for. How old do those guys look? Not old enough for it to be 25 years ago. Maybe even 2 years would have worked. A lot better.

Divayth Fyr

2014-08-28, 06:46 PM

So anyone have any ideas for the next thread title?
Wasn't the idea to have the next thread be "It is the IX Divines you milkdrinker!"?

Oh yes, absolutely - if the whole thing were compressed into a much more recent timeframe, rather than this "25 years ago" nonsense, it would make a lot more sense. Honestly, it'd make more sense if they just said "six months ago", with no other changes. But no, some idiot pulled "25 years" out of their backside, and that's what they went with.
I agree - while it still would have a fair share of issues, it would be nowhere near as stupid as it is.

NineThePuma

2014-08-28, 06:50 PM

So anyone have any ideas for the next thread title?

Wasn't the idea to have the next thread be "It is the IX Divines you milkdrinker!"?

"IX Divines, milkdrinker" was the standing idea put down 47 pages ago.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-29, 03:23 AM

I think what bothers me most about the Mage's Guilds in both Oblivion and Skyrim is that 99% of all assignments you get there can be solved just as well if not better by some sword-wielding grunt. I mean why would you teach someone the mystical secrets of the cosmos and how to bend reality to your whim if you're just gonna be sending them into a cave to kill some monsters and retrieve the magic Whatsit of Someoneorother? That's what peasants fighters are for.

The traps are designed to trap mages.
The key, I think, is roleplaying. If you set out to become the master of all guilds, it is rather easy. However if you roleplay, your stealthy thief might not even consider joining the college at all. Even though YOU know it is beneficial.

Speaking of which... Since I am forced to start over after removing a bunch of mods... I can't decide if I should be male or female...
Dang it.

Triaxx

2014-08-29, 07:01 AM

If you're playing a warrior with SkyRe, Ice Form is extremely useful. Being able to stop a bunch of enemies from acting is invaluable.

It also means having at least one companion is exceptionally helpful.

Morty

2014-08-29, 07:08 AM

That is true. Enemies resistant to physical harm and puzzles solvable primarily by magic would of made some sense. I did the quest-line twice and hilariously the no-stealth 2-hander Nord character I had just cake-walked his way through it. :smallbiggrin: I so wanted to add my own battle cry of "I cast fist!"

Conversely, though, Companions/Fighters' Guild quests would need to require strength of arms, making stealth and magic difficult or useless.

Not sure, because I haven't brought myself to play it yet. The vanilla game has the occasional spying/recon and ambush mission, as well as the stand-up fights, and I imagine the overhaul introduces at least a few more, but can't say for sure.

It's billed as making the game more strategic - as in, you have some say over where and when you fight battles, and the other side may sometimes counter-attack and undo your hard work, and basically the whole thing takes about 20 missions instead of the, what is it, six or seven in vanilla. Of course if they're all the same kinds of stand-up fights, I can see why Bethesda chose to cut it down...

Personally, I found melee a more survivable option than shooting in those battles. Because stealth is impossible, charging into melee means I'm probably only being hit by one or two opponents, which is better than arrows coming at me from half a dozen different directions I can't even see.

I'd always get pin-cushioned if I tried to get into melee too quickly. I'm not sure if any mod can make the civil war less dull.

Duck999

2014-08-29, 10:42 AM

I believe the point was to allow anyone from any kind of character to be able to do any questline. Though, if you have fun being a thief, you may not find other questlines as enjoyable. My sneaky one hander is my main, and I have found the , ages college most dull of the choices. It's fun enough to play, but not as fun as thieves or assassins.

Triaxx

2014-08-29, 03:59 PM

It's strange though, it's as though the entire game is based around a Two-handed Nord. I mean, every single quest is relatively easy for one. Though that might be the insane superiority of the nord with two handed weapons. In particular the 'magic anomalies' in the mages quest are incredibly vulnerable to physical damage. A Frost Atronach is a great ally during that.

Kesnit

2014-08-30, 05:07 AM

Jayngfet

2014-08-30, 05:11 AM

Apparently, Frostbite Spiders are tougher than I thought...

I fast traveled to Morthal and soon after, heard the sound of a dragon. The guards and I got some hits on it, and it flew away with about 25% health. I chased after it, but lost it briefly. While running, I saw a Frostbite Spider a little ways off. Since I'd lost the dragon at that point, I turned back towards the city. Then I heard the crash sound of a dragon landing and turned around, just in time to see the dragon die from the spider. Then the spider came after me.

If I remember right there are two versions of the spider. One is that you see in early dungeons, and then there's a much stronger variant later on, you may have seen one of those.

In any case, the spider strikes me as a uniquely suited enemy to the dragon. They're reasonably maneuverable and don't close distance, and they have a decent ranged attack too.

Duck999

2014-08-30, 01:27 PM

Frostbite Spiders: At first, they are the equivalent difficulty of wolves. Giant frostbite spider: Definitely at least a little harder. High level frostbite spiders: Can be a very tough enemy.
And that, my dear sirs, is Duck's useful guide to Frostbite Spiders.

NineThePuma

2014-08-30, 01:36 PM

The worst thing about frost bite spiders is that they don't have any 'tells' that they're scaling. you just suddenly go from 'weak as **** pansy spiders' to 'holy **** wtf' spiders.

Duck999

2014-08-30, 03:05 PM

That is a good overall description. Mayne there's just a turning point at a certain level, or maybe you don't notice them scaling until they get really strong. Maybe both.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-30, 03:22 PM

Hey does anyone know how ESO is going?
The only thing I have head, positive OR negative is that it turns into a boring grinder at high levels?

AdmiralCheez

2014-08-30, 07:31 PM

Hey does anyone know how ESO is going?
The only thing I have head, positive OR negative is that it turns into a boring grinder at high levels?

That's more than I've heard on it. I haven't seen or heard a single thing about ESO since it launched. That says to me either no one is playing it, or the game fails to leave any kind of impression on anyone. As far as I know, though, it's still going.

RabidKoala

2014-08-30, 07:41 PM

On the topic of the Thalmor: is it just me or are any of you guys perfectly fine with them being hated,racist,Nazi elves? I mean I understand that The Elder Scrolls is known for showing both sides of a argument but I like not liking the Thalmor. They're something that you can feel good about hating. Anyone else feel this way?

Duck999

2014-08-30, 10:28 PM

DomaDoma

2014-08-30, 11:08 PM

That's more than I've heard on it. I haven't seen or heard a single thing about ESO since it launched. That says to me either no one is playing it, or the game fails to leave any kind of impression on anyone. As far as I know, though, it's still going.

Basically. Angry Joe and Zero Punctuation both did bad reviews, full of sound and fury, that boiled down to "well, this is strangely boring." (Evidently the people who scripted the emotion animations beg to differ; there's a vehement I-don't-want-to-talk-about-it animation early into the Angry Joe review that might have filled in pretty well for that one conversation with Ocato, but not for anything in Skyrim, never mind any MMO I've ever played or heard of.)

On the other hand, the screenshots catalogued on the wiki can be fabulous.

One weird thing I heard was an Imperial say:
What the rebels forget is that the empire is what keeps the Aldmeri Dominion in Skyrim.
He said it like it's a good thing.

Out of, actually. You misheard. (But I must say, Tullius in particular demonstrably doesn't have the stones for it.)

TandemChelipeds

2014-08-30, 11:16 PM

I don't know what to think of them.
One weird thing I heard was an Imperial say:
What the rebels forget is that the empire is what keeps the Aldmeri Dominion in Skyrim.
He said it like it's a good thing.

Are you sure? I always heard it as "keeps the Aldmeri Dominion out of Skyrim." Which it clearly isn't doing a very good job of, judging by all the Thalmor agents skulking around in broad daylight. For an intelligence organization, they don't do subtlety.

Nilehus

2014-08-30, 11:19 PM

I don't blame Tullius for not wanting to fight the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor at the same time, honestly. After all, it's the Stormcloaks fault that the Thalmor decided to keep such a close eye on Skyrim. :smalltongue:

DomaDoma

2014-08-30, 11:30 PM

Sure, but the Thalmor aren't ready for war either. The lack of retaliation for the embassy incident shows that, if nothing else - but just the thought of speaking on behalf of one not-too-valuable highborn prisoner is enough to make Tullius weak in the knees.

Nilehus

2014-08-30, 11:36 PM

There was actually supposed to be an option after the civil war was over for Tullius to do it, where he'd say something like "Now that our attention isn't divided, of course." Sadly, Bethesda game, so he comes off looking weak.

Avilan the Grey

2014-08-31, 03:50 AM

Don't start this again :smallbiggrin:
The rebellion in Skyrim is done by people not knowing their own history, led by a narcissistic idiot / enemy agent, and will only result in suffering for everyone involved:

If the rebellion wins, both Skyrim and Cyrodiil will be too weak to fight the Thalmor and will both be conquered. But before that happens, the racists in Ulfric's new government will probably launch a full out ethnic cleansing of both the Orcs, the Bretons, the Dunmer AND the Argonians.

What is evident after playing the game is that the Thalmor needs to be defeated ASAP and then everything must be aimed at preparing for the true threat: The world-wide invasion of the Falmer.

Triaxx

2014-08-31, 05:55 AM

DomaDoma

2014-08-31, 06:40 AM

If the rebellion wins, both Skyrim and Cyrodiil will be too weak to fight the Thalmor and will both be conquered. But before that happens, the racists in Ulfric's new government will probably launch a full out ethnic cleansing of both the Orcs, the Bretons, the Dunmer AND the Argonians.

Demonstrably false. In Elder Scrolls VI, either the conquest will happen or it won't (my money is on "it won't, but it'll be a work in progress and you'll get updates on that front of the Second War in NPC dialogue"), but whether the rebellion won will be left deliberately vague. :smalltongue:

As for "enemy agent", you know, I'd run that one past Legate Rikke and toward Windhelm if the game would let me.

Kareeah_Indaga

2014-08-31, 08:17 AM

Gaelbert

2014-08-31, 08:58 AM

I started playing through my first non-sneaky character and I've been having a lot of fun. 200 hours in and I finally learned that there's a shield bashing mechanic. Go figure. Never used shields until my sword and board Nord.
I found a set of Imperial armor in on of the Dunmer houses (or clubs) in Windhelm. Is this something other people have seen, or was that added in a mod I'm using?

Landis963

2014-08-31, 09:48 AM

:smallconfused: Who are we rescuing in that scenario? The Falmer or the Thalmor?

We're not so much "rescuing" as "mopping up." And yes.

Duck999

2014-08-31, 10:00 AM

Not only are the imperials doing nothing to keep the Thalmor out, but in some placss, it appears as if they are supporting the Thalmor.

Nilehus

2014-08-31, 10:37 AM

Go to war when you're completely unprepared and risk every life in the Empire, or play along with the Thalmor until you build a strong enough army to tell them where to stick it?

Still, DomaDoma was right. In the end, it's not going to matter what the Dragonborn did, because 6 will gloss over the whole situation with Skyrim, 7 will probably have the Empire fallen and replaced with a new one, and the Stormcloak rebellion will just be a footnote.

Damn Bethesda. At least in Fallout, the people in the Mojave have a legitimate reason to not know/care about what's happening over in the Capital Wasteland.

DomaDoma

2014-08-31, 12:54 PM

Go to war when you're completely unprepared and risk every life in the Empire, or play along with the Thalmor until you build a strong enough army to tell them where to stick it?

The question is in how much weight you give to that facade versus how much weight you give to the preparation. Balgruuf has the right idea, in my book - stick to lip service unless and until circumstances actually force things.

Neither side as presented is exactly a solid bet. In terms of the Dying Like Animals list, the Stormcloaks are a bit too Boarish and the Imperials are a bit too Mouselike. And both of them are duped into a war that can, at best, end quickly enough to not inspire too much revenge-cycling. Just because Ulfric was the first doesn't mean he's the only.

DigoDragon

2014-08-31, 02:29 PM

Conversely, though, Companions/Fighters' Guild quests would need to require strength of arms, making stealth and magic difficult or useless.

Just having a companion follow you around makes stealth kind of useless. :smallbiggrin:

Duck999

2014-08-31, 03:48 PM

Just having a companion follow you around makes stealth kind of useless. :smallbiggrin:

I always make sure my body blocks a passage so my companion can't charge, then I snipe one or two people before letting my companion through.

veti

2014-08-31, 06:24 PM

Hang on, perhaps we're missing something useful. Let's send the Falmer to the Summerset Isles. They don't like High Elves any more than they like anyone else, so either they wipe out the Thalmor and we ride to the rescue, or they get wiped out and we've got one less threat to deal with.

"Send the Falmer"? How do you propose we do that, exactly? I don't see much prospect of them taking orders from me, and how would they get there anyway?

What might work better would be to plant evidence for the Thalmor to find that the Falmer are hardcore Talos worshippers, and they were behind the Stormcloaks in the first place.

Go to war when you're completely unprepared and risk every life in the Empire, or play along with the Thalmor until you build a strong enough army to tell them where to stick it?

That only works if you've got a plan to rebuild your strength faster than the enemy is rebuilding theirs. And Item #1 on a plan like that would be "Don't get dragged into any wars you don't have to be". Sitting back and letting Skyrim secede, while grovelling apologetically to the Thalmor that without the Nordish warriors you just don't have the strength to do anything about it, would have been the smart play.

NineThePuma

2014-08-31, 07:01 PM

That only works if you've got a plan to rebuild your strength faster than the enemy is rebuilding theirs.

... What's the life cycle of an Elf? Cause if it's anything like Tolkien Elves, I think I just figured out how the Thalmor are trying to do this.

Duck999

2014-08-31, 07:39 PM

... What's the life cycle of an Elf? Cause if it's anything like Tolkien Elves, I think I just figured out how the Thalmor are trying to do this.

Wait until all the leaders/war superpowers get old and die, then take over with ease. That can't be too hard...

Dang you dragonbooooorn!

Kareeah_Indaga

2014-08-31, 07:43 PM

What might work better would be to plant evidence for the Thalmor to find that the Falmer are hardcore Talos worshippers, and they were behind the Stormcloaks in the first place.

...the Thalmor are behind the Stormcloaks. (Or at least prodding them on a lot.) They aren't going to care.

... What's the life cycle of an Elf? Cause if it's anything like Tolkien Elves, I think I just figured out how the Thalmor are trying to do this.

"The Real Barenziah" says a thousand years. IIRC Divath Fyr was ~4,000, but I think he was using magic to extend his life (not that that might not be an option for the Thalmor too).

Triaxx

2014-08-31, 08:15 PM

I was thinking of getting a bunch of very fast Nords to moon them, and then let them lead the entire group to the isles.

Or possibly having the one from Dawnguard work a little mojo on them. On the other hand, convincing the Thalmor they're Talos worshippers is hilariously awesome.

DomaDoma

2014-08-31, 08:37 PM

If my research is accurate, the Elder Scrolls elven lifespan is something slightly under 200 years. IIRC, that Argonian at the college library didn't expect Mankar Camoran to be alive four hundred years after he wrote the Commentaries (though she did allow for magical shenanigans.)

Ha ha, I was wrong, a few thousand years is completely doable, just very unlikely - think Tolkien elves except they're also susceptible to disease. (The Altmer less so than the others, mind.) Anyway, I guess your theory was the Thalmor strategy was a conscious employment of Steynian doomography? That'd work, fertility always depending, but as evil battle plans go, it's got a distinct lack of pizzazz.

(By the way, Veti, yeah, that's probably the best thing I've heard yet for what the Empire should have done. It's undertandable they didn't see that option what with the whole Torygg thing, but really, Elisif, for all her virtues, is not exactly High Queen material - spiriting her to Cyrodiil and then feigning helplessness really was the best call.)

RabidKoala

2014-08-31, 08:44 PM

DomaDoma

2014-08-31, 08:49 PM

Does that life span include orcs? Just out of curiosity not out of potential battle plans.

Urag's at least seven hundred years old, but that's the most definite we get, I think.

Duck999

2014-08-31, 09:03 PM

I assume that it is similar since orcs are orsimer.

Also, mers being elves, bretons being half elf half human, are bretons mermen?
Logic:
Elves: Mer
Bretons: Half man, half elf/mer
Therefore: Bretons=Mermen
So: Bretons are 1/3 Human, 1/3 Elf, and 1/3 Fish.

NineThePuma

2014-08-31, 10:28 PM

DomaDoma

2014-08-31, 10:38 PM

It's weird that none of that is definitely outlined in five games, eh what?

But yup, an application of Steynian doomography. Just more thoroughly thought-out than I'd bothered to, and also considerably more colorful.

Leviting

2014-08-31, 10:52 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if Telvanni wizards had a ritual that makes them completely immune to aging. I.E., Divath Fyr, and the occasional Telvanni wizard in Dragonborn. Orcs, on the other hand, generally die in battle before they succumb to disease, simply because of that honor stuff and all. High Elves? I have no idea, though Savos Aren I believe says that an accomplished wizard can study for several lifetimes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Thalmor leaders learned those tricks simply to outlive their political competition.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-01, 01:49 AM

The question is in how much weight you give to that facade versus how much weight you give to the preparation. Balgruuf has the right idea, in my book - stick to lip service unless and until circumstances actually force things.

Neither side as presented is exactly a solid bet. In terms of the Dying Like Animals list, the Stormcloaks are a bit too Boarish and the Imperials are a bit too Mouselike. And both of them are duped into a war that can, at best, end quickly enough to not inspire too much revenge-cycling. Just because Ulfric was the first doesn't mean he's the only.

The problem is that the Empire HAD already massed a LOT of troups at the border, almost ready to attack, when Glorious Rebel Leader decided to start his revolt.

Just having a companion follow you around makes stealth kind of useless. :smallbiggrin:

Depends. If your stealth is high enough, the enemy will ONLY attack your follower.

Divayth Fyr

2014-09-01, 03:01 AM

If my research is accurate, the Elder Scrolls elven lifespan is something slightly under 200 years. IIRC, that Argonian at the college library didn't expect Mankar Camoran to be alive four hundred years after he wrote the Commentaries (though she did allow for magical shenanigans.)

Ha ha, I was wrong, a few thousand years is completely doable, just very unlikely - think Tolkien elves except they're also susceptible to disease. (The Altmer less so than the others, mind.) Anyway, I guess your theory was the Thalmor strategy was a conscious employment of Steynian doomography? That'd work, fertility always depending, but as evil battle plans go, it's got a distinct lack of pizzazz.
Lifespans of the various races are a problematic thing - Bethesda never gave specific numbers for them in general and there isn't enough data to determine anything. ESO's authors did give us numbers

Elves live two to three times as long as humans and the “beast-races” (Orcs, Khajiiti, Argonians). A 200-year-old Elf is old; a 300-year-old Elf is very, very old indeed. Anyone older than that has prolonged his or her lifespan through powerful magic.

However those simply don't work with those cases where we know someone's age.

Urag's at least seven hundred years old, but that's the most definite we get, I think.
Is he?

Ailurus

2014-09-01, 04:44 AM

Is he [Urag]?

Well, he does say that without him being diligent, most of the college's library would have been lost before the Third Era, which would put him at a minimum of 634+however old we was when he started working at the college. Assuming that line isn't hyperbole on his part.

Triaxx

2014-09-01, 05:38 AM

As awesome of a beard as he has, he can be as old as he wants.

That said, one doesn't work as the librarian to long lived wizards without picking up a few tricks.

Duck999

2014-09-01, 08:41 AM

Depends. If your stealth is high enough, the enemy will ONLY attack your follower.

No, by the time the enemy gets close and combat starts, even with max stealth, which I spent most of my time with, it is very challenging to not be seen, if it is possible.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-01, 08:46 AM

No, by the time the enemy gets close and combat starts, even with max stealth, which I spent most of my time with, it is very challenging to not be seen, if it is possible.

Oh by that time they SEE you, but most likely, at least if it's no more than 2 or 3 attackers, they are already committed to your follower.

DomaDoma

2014-09-01, 08:53 AM

The problem is that the Empire HAD already massed a LOT of troups at the border, almost ready to attack, when Glorious Rebel Leader decided to start his revolt.

I missed this, somehow. What border? Where do you hear this? Agh!

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-01, 09:00 AM

I missed this, somehow. What border? Where do you hear this? Agh!

Am at work, can't find the source, but the border against Valenwood I presume. Also maybe Elsewyr. "Sothern Cyrodiil" might be a more apt description. The point is that the Emperor was not "waiting"; both the Dominion and the Empire have been in somewhat of an arms race (but from what I recally the Empire thinks it's getting the upper hand in troop strength) since the peace, and the rebels muck things up pretty badly by forcing them to divide a huge portion of their troops to the north.

Just like the Dominion hoped, of course.

Duck999

2014-09-01, 09:16 AM

Oh by that time they SEE you, but most likely, at least if it's no more than 2 or 3 attackers, they are already committed to your follower.

Then you walk up behind them and stabbity stab stabbing happens. It doesn't necessarily qualify for extra sneak attack damage, but you do get in a few extra hits.

DigoDragon

2014-09-01, 09:30 AM

Depends. If your stealth is high enough, the enemy will ONLY attack your follower.

I know, I'm just poking fun at followers. Even the sneaky types just charge into battle.
I hope the next game fixes that.

Divayth Fyr

2014-09-01, 09:39 AM

Well, he does say that without him being diligent, most of the college's library would have been lost before the Third Era, which would put him at a minimum of 634+however old we was when he started working at the college. Assuming that line isn't hyperbole on his part.
Ah, must have missed that line. And while my gut feeling is that he exaggerates things a fair bit, there is nothing to disprove (nor to prove) his claims.

Kareeah_Indaga

2014-09-01, 09:41 AM

I more meant their rate of reproduction, not their maximum age.

Put in the light of "Thalmor are responsible for the civil war", if their reproductive rate is in line with Tolkien esque or even bog standard 3.5 elves, the civil war is how they're sabotaging/delaying the empire's ability to get more able bodied soldiers to fight in round 2, since the thalmor burned themselves out for the most part on the first one.

If it takes 50 years for an elf to hit maturity and be trained up enough to be a soldier, and it takes 25 (very generous assumption, that) for a human to do the same, then the Thalmor were going to lose round 2, when it starts up in a generation. Them starting the civil war and destabilizing the empire right when the empire's getting its next generation of warriors delays the empire's military strength rebuilding.

I keep running back to this so I'm just going to link it. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah)

"How old are you, Berry? Seventeen? Well, you've a year or two yet before you're fertile, unless you're very unlucky. Elves don't have children readily with other Elves after that, even, so you'll be all right if you stick with them."

It might still work; looking at how long the Altmer make their heirs go through all the nonsense before they can take the throne they might not consider their people to be combat ready until they're fifty.

And DomaDoma, what's this Steynian doomography you keep bringing up? Google has been less than helpful, except I gather Steyning is/was a town.

DomaDoma

2014-09-01, 10:33 AM

And DomaDoma, what's this Steynian doomography you keep bringing up? Google has been less than helpful, except I gather Steyning is/was a town.

Pundit/historian whose core thesis is that the future belongs to whoever shows up for it.

Am at work, can't find the source, but the border against Valenwood I presume. Also maybe Elsewyr. "Sothern Cyrodiil" might be a more apt description. The point is that the Emperor was not "waiting"; both the Dominion and the Empire have been in somewhat of an arms race (but from what I recally the Empire thinks it's getting the upper hand in troop strength) since the peace, and the rebels muck things up pretty badly by forcing them to divide a huge portion of their troops to the north.

Just like the Dominion hoped, of course.

Okay. Yeah, if that is indeed canon, that's my ideology fully swayed to the Imperial side. Doesn't budge the pacifist bent of my litany of coulda-woulda-shoulda strategies, but... yeah. Wow.

veti

2014-09-02, 09:10 PM

Okay. Yeah, if that is indeed canon, that's my ideology fully swayed to the Imperial side. Doesn't budge the pacifist bent of my litany of coulda-woulda-shoulda strategies, but... yeah. Wow.

I really would like to see a source for that. A trustworthy one, for preference.

Because on the face of it, it doesn't add up at all. If the Empire really was all primed and ready to go toe to toe with the Thalmor again...

... then why didn't they?

They could have defused the rebellion in Skyrim at any time just by booting out the Thalmor, which presumably they would have done anyway as a necessary first step in any such war. But they didn't do that. Instead, they sent the legions north specifically to make Skyrim safe for the Thalmor to operate in. They're literally protecting the Thalmor, at their own expense.

That doesn't look like the action of a power that's ready to shake off the oppressor's shackles. That's a "power" that's so well and truly under the Thalmor's thumb, that it is to all intents and purposes already a part of the Dominion.

Jayngfet

2014-09-02, 09:49 PM

I more meant their rate of reproduction, not their maximum age.

Put in the light of "Thalmor are responsible for the civil war", if their reproductive rate is in line with Tolkien esque or even bog standard 3.5 elves, the civil war is how they're sabotaging/delaying the empire's ability to get more able bodied soldiers to fight in round 2, since the thalmor burned themselves out for the most part on the first one.

If it takes 50 years for an elf to hit maturity and be trained up enough to be a soldier, and it takes 25 (very generous assumption, that) for a human to do the same, then the Thalmor were going to lose round 2, when it starts up in a generation. Them starting the civil war and destabilizing the empire right when the empire's getting its next generation of warriors delays the empire's military strength rebuilding.

That's something of a misconception.

For a number of real life cultures taking on an active combat role was something done well before the age of 18. Knights liked to count by 7's and make that their age of full acceptance 21, but they'd been actually training to fight and shoot since about the age of 7. 21 got used as a nice round number, and 18 is often disputed since the body is physically ready and able to be trained much younger, but the brain matures a bit later. For a grunt though you can probably cut it to 16 if you train early enough, and use younger ones for message running and aid purposes.

If the empire is forced into that kind of situation, they'd probably do it. Teaching soldiers to fire crossbows and hold formation isn't exactly college level material. It'd be a horrible, bloody way to fight, but the Thalmor don't exactly fight clean either.

NineThePuma

2014-09-02, 10:32 PM

That's something of a misconception.

For a number of real life cultures taking on an active combat role was something done well before the age of 18. Knights liked to count by 7's and make that their age of full acceptance 21, but they'd been actually training to fight and shoot since about the age of 7. 21 got used as a nice round number, and 18 is often disputed since the body is physically ready and able to be trained much younger, but the brain matures a bit later. For a grunt though you can probably cut it to 16 if you train early enough, and use younger ones for message running and aid purposes.

If the empire is forced into that kind of situation, they'd probably do it. Teaching soldiers to fire crossbows and hold formation isn't exactly college level material. It'd be a horrible, bloody way to fight, but the Thalmor don't exactly fight clean either.

A knight began training at 7, but they were likely not at a combat capable point in said training until 14, and combat training takes a surprising amount of time.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-03, 01:34 AM

I really would like to see a source for that. A trustworthy one, for preference.

Because on the face of it, it doesn't add up at all. If the Empire really was all primed and ready to go toe to toe with the Thalmor again...

... then why didn't they?

They could have defused the rebellion in Skyrim at any time just by booting out the Thalmor, which presumably they would have done anyway as a necessary first step in any such war. But they didn't do that. Instead, they sent the legions north specifically to make Skyrim safe for the Thalmor to operate in. They're literally protecting the Thalmor, at their own expense.

Because they were not ready to go YET.
And you might have misunderstood the whole "civil war" thing. It has nothing to do with "making Skyrim safe for Thalmor". It has to do with a traitor taking away about 35% of your troop strength, minimum, PERMANENTLY. I don't see how you can misinterpret it the way you do.

Closet_Skeleton

2014-09-03, 05:07 AM

A knight began training at 7, but they were likely not at a combat capable point in said training until 14, and combat training takes a surprising amount of time.

Intense combat training is impossible to do with children. All you end up with is crippled teenagers with warped skeletons. 7 year old pages were probably riding ponies and polishing armour, not learning to fight.

Some combat skills can and have to be taught young, but its a very small list. Slingers is the main one. Archery not so much, you can teach accuracy a little with low draw weight bows but the most important thing for military archery is to build up strength and that can't be done until the skeleton is fully developed.

Nobles in the gunpowder era often went off to battle at 12-14, but they didn't need any combat skills at all as they were entirely an officer class. Soldiering skills can be started young, but that isn't the same thing as fighting skills.

Ivellius

2014-09-03, 08:02 AM

I really would like to see a source for that. A trustworthy one, for preference.

Because on the face of it, it doesn't add up at all. If the Empire really was all primed and ready to go toe to toe with the Thalmor again...

... then why didn't they?

They could have defused the rebellion in Skyrim at any time just by booting out the Thalmor, which presumably they would have done anyway as a necessary first step in any such war. But they didn't do that. Instead, they sent the legions north specifically to make Skyrim safe for the Thalmor to operate in. They're literally protecting the Thalmor, at their own expense.

That doesn't look like the action of a power that's ready to shake off the oppressor's shackles. That's a "power" that's so well and truly under the Thalmor's thumb, that it is to all intents and purposes already a part of the Dominion.

Considering the Thalmor see Ulfric as an asset and that an Imperial victory would harm their strategic position, that suggests the Thalmor are afraid of facing the might of the Empire. It's indirect confirmation, sure, but you always have to read between the lines. As has been already noted, the Empire wasn't ready quite yet, but they felt confident they would get there. Then Ulfric decides to make sure they have a two-front war to fight.

Gaelbert

2014-09-03, 10:18 AM

Considering the Thalmor see Ulfric as an asset and that an Imperial victory would harm their strategic position, that suggests the Thalmor are afraid of facing the might of the Empire. It's indirect confirmation, sure, but you always have to read between the lines. As has been already noted, the Empire wasn't ready quite yet, but they felt confident they would get there. Then Ulfric decides to make sure they have a two-front war to fight.

The text of the document labels Ulfric as an uncooperative asset, and he got the asset label not out of anything he did but because he was the son of a Jarl. The document also says a Stormcloak victory would be bad, meaning that the Thalmor's goal is really just to keep the war going indefinitely, not make sure one side wins.

Divayth Fyr

2014-09-03, 12:23 PM

Calemyr

2014-09-03, 12:52 PM

The text of the document labels Ulfric as an uncooperative asset, and he got the asset label not out of anything he did but because he was the son of a Jarl. The document also says a Stormcloak victory would be bad, meaning that the Thalmor's goal is really just to keep the war going indefinitely, not make sure one side wins.

Yeah, it's bad. A group of uncontrolled anti-Thalmor soldiers cut free of the treaty and allowed to go right to war (while they themselves are still trying to recover from the Red Mountain battle)? Ulfric winning is a bad outcome.

The empire winning is worse. While they'd be likely weaker than they would have been had Ulfric not snapped, they are still a much larger force united than divided, because losing Skyrim means loosing Orsinium and High Rock as well (no direct travel routes). The Empire winning is a really bad outcome.

The fight continuing for as long as elvenly possible, however, is a good case. The Thalmor are investing very little (a few officers, probably not even good ones) to buy themselves time to rebuild and rearm. If the humans can be kept from doing the same, they'll be easy prey. If the fight can be maintained until the Thalmor have finished preparations, the next Great War would be absurdly easy.

I think the worst case scenario, however, is a Dragonborn popping up, powering up by chowing down on a sudden crop of flying gas bags, and deciding black and gold would look better with some red. A Dragonborn on the warpath is a much scarier proposition than even a united empire without one.

veti

2014-09-03, 05:01 PM

Because they were not ready to go YET.
And you might have misunderstood the whole "civil war" thing. It has nothing to do with "making Skyrim safe for Thalmor". It has to do with a traitor taking away about 35% of your troop strength, minimum, PERMANENTLY. I don't see how you can misinterpret it the way you do.

Well, that makes a nonsense of the whole story. If they weren't ready to go YET, then they wouldn't have moved their army into a position to go YET. You don't "poise your army to invade" someone unless you're ready and willing to invade them.

And the civil war has EVERYTHING to do with making Skyrim safe for the Thalmor. If the Empire turned round and supported Talos worship and stopped enforcing the Thalmor's laws, then nobody would have sided with Ulfric and he'd just be seen as what the Empire claims he is - a dangerous hothead who jumped the gun. But they didn't do that. And that tells us that they'd rather waste one-third of their strength for the next generation on infighting, than take on the Thalmor now.

There is a huge gulf between the Empire's rhetoric and its actions. Face it: the Empire is whipped. This "next war with the Thalmor" that Rikke and others occasionally hint at, is pure fantasy on their part: it's not going to happen in their lifetime.

It also mentions he has proven his worth as an asset (which isn't surprising, since his accions allowed the Thalmor to crack down on Talos worship in Skyrim and generally increase their presence). And while from their perspective any victory is bad, an Imperial one is worse in general - since it makes for a bigger unified force they'd need to deal with during the second Great War.

I do believe that's pure interpretation, informed by your own prejudices.

All the Thalmor say, in their own documents, is that keeping the war going is good, and from that we can reasonably infer that any end to the war is bad. They don't say whether an Imperial or Stormcloak victory would be worse.

The Empire is actively doing the Thalmor's bidding in fighting the Stormcloaks. The Empire is already behaving, to all practical purposes, like a Dominion vassal, which means that a united Empire is actually better for the Thalmor. An independent Skyrim would mean there were two strong, independent, neighbouring, human-dominated countries - Skyrim and Hammerfell - with a shared grudge against the Thalmor, which would have all the makings of a new alliance combining two of the strongest warrior races in the world.

...

General note: it's fairly clear Bethesda themselves never actually bothered to work out "the truth". Sources in-game are hopelessly muddled and contradictory. For instance, there are 25 years between the Markarth Incident, which "started it all", and the death of Torygg - "what the heck were all these people doing all that time?" is a question that's never even acknowledged, let alone answered.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-04, 01:33 AM

Well, that makes a nonsense of the whole story. If they weren't ready to go YET, then they wouldn't have moved their army into a position to go YET. You don't "poise your army to invade" someone unless you're ready and willing to invade them.

And the civil war has EVERYTHING to do with making Skyrim safe for the Thalmor. If the Empire turned round and supported Talos worship and stopped enforcing the Thalmor's laws, then nobody would have sided with Ulfric and he'd just be seen as what the Empire claims he is - a dangerous hothead who jumped the gun. But they didn't do that. And that tells us that they'd rather waste one-third of their strength for the next generation on infighting, than take on the Thalmor now.

You are bolstering your border troops, doing troop movements and whatnot. Even today you move ships into better harbors before you are ready to strike; in an era where marching troops across your own territory takes two weeks, you better get ready early.

Also, no, you are simply wrong. You have not grasped the idea of what is going on, it's as simple as that.

Ailurus

2014-09-04, 06:00 AM

Also, no, you are simply wrong. You have not grasped the idea of what is going on, it's as simple as that.

Incorrect. While I think "make Skyrim safe for the Thalmor" may be a bit extreme in wording, the civil war is about Thalmor appeasement. The ultimate trigger, Markarth, was about Thalmor appeasement. Stormcloak writings and dialogue frequently talk about how their main problem is the empire trading Nordic traditions for peace with the Thalmor. Why is Elenwen brought to the peace conference? Because she wants to go and the Empire won't risk saying no to her. Even Tullius talks on several occasions about how the Thalmor are pulling everyone's strings in Skyrim.

Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.

Now, sure, one could easily make the point that the Stormcloaks are taking a very short term view and jeopardizing their future freedom from the Thalmor in order to gain temporary relief from the White-Gold Concordant. And one can also argue that if the Empire had stood up to the Thalmor immediately after Markarth then it would have restarted the war at a time when the empire could ill afford it (though Hammerfall suggests that may not have been the issue. But that's another discussion)

Frankly, if the Emperor was to go ahead and say "OK, Ulfric, you win. Stop the rebellion and you don't have to listen to the White-Gold Concordant anymore" just about everything in-game suggests that will end the civil war. (Will it trade the Civil War for Great War II, quite possibly. But, you've also got two battle-hardened armies in the field which could immediately be sent south, and likely arrive at the border by the time Elenwen's messengers reach Sommerset and Thalmor troops deploy to the border.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-04, 06:10 AM

Incorrect. While I think "make Skyrim safe for the Thalmor" may be a bit extreme in wording, the civil war is about Thalmor appeasement. The ultimate trigger, Markarth, was about Thalmor appeasement. Stormcloak writings and dialogue frequently talk about how their main problem is the empire trading Nordic traditions for peace with the Thalmor. Why is Elenwen brought to the peace conference? Because she wants to go and the Empire won't risk saying no to her. Even Tullius talks on several occasions about how the Thalmor are pulling everyone's strings in Skyrim.

1. Yes, you are correct that from the Stormcloak's OFFICIAL standpoint, the war is "for Talos". However from the Empire's side it is not. They are fighting to A) punish a traitor (and by all definitions Ulfric is a traitor) and B) to stop unlawful secession from the Empire. On top of that they are fully aware that they cannot beat the Thalmor without Skyrim as part of the Empire. The Stormcloaks delude themselves into thinking they can beat the Thalmor on their own.

2. The INofficial standpoint for at least many of the Stormcloaks however is more of a "We are superior, drive all others out of Skyrim, and here is our chance to pretend it is for something else". The Markarth incident clearly shows that in the heart of the affair is a large chunk of pure racism (against the Forsworn in that particular case).

DigoDragon

2014-09-04, 07:34 AM

General note: it's fairly clear Bethesda themselves never actually bothered to work out "the truth". Sources in-game are hopelessly muddled and contradictory. For instance, there are 25 years between the Markarth Incident, which "started it all", and the death of Torygg - "what the heck were all these people doing all that time?" is a question that's never even acknowledged, let alone answered.

I don't mind most of those contradictory bits in the history. With all the races and conflicts of interest it seems realistic that the history books are not all going to agree. :smallsmile:

veti

2014-09-04, 05:22 PM

You are bolstering your border troops, doing troop movements and whatnot. Even today you move ships into better harbors before you are ready to strike; in an era where marching troops across your own territory takes two weeks, you better get ready early.

Utter nonsense. If you're within two weeks of being ready to launch one war, you don't respond to an incident elsewhere by cancelling all those arrangements and going to fight another one instead. The empire's reaction proves that they were nowhere near ready for that.

You're the one who introduced this (so far, 100% quote-free unsubstantiated fairytale) story about the empire being "almost ready to invade" the Dominion when Ulfric flew off the handle. Can you find an actual quote that shows it's not something hatched entirely in your own imagination? There are lots of sources online, pretty much every line of dialogue in the game is listed in uesp.net.

Also, no, you are simply wrong. You have not grasped the idea of what is going on, it's as simple as that.

That's not even an argument. I'd like to know what private sources of info you have that allow you to dismiss a contrary interpretation so authoritatively.

I don't mind most of those contradictory bits in the history. With all the races and conflicts of interest it seems realistic that the history books are not all going to agree. :smallsmile:

Well, "not agreeing" is one thing, but just "being unanimously, deafeningly silent about the last 25 years, which you'd think would be freshest in everyone's minds" is something else entirely.

It's one thing to hear contrary opinions about recent events. But in Skyrim, nobody talks about them at all. Seriously, it's as if everyone, books included, has complete amnesia about the last 25 years of history.

Divayth Fyr

2014-09-04, 06:06 PM

Utter nonsense. If you're within two weeks of being ready to launch one war, you don't respond to an incident elsewhere by cancelling all those arrangements and going to fight another one instead.
Not even if that incident carries a risk of you losing a decent chunk of your forces and supplies before you launch your attack?

The Empire is actively doing the Thalmor's bidding in fighting the Stormcloaks. The Empire is already behaving, to all practical purposes, like a Dominion vassal, which means that a united Empire is actually better for the Thalmor.
And now you're the one bringing out your own, prejudice-based interpretations.

An independent Skyrim would mean there were two strong, independent, neighbouring, human-dominated countries - Skyrim and Hammerfell - with a shared grudge against the Thalmor, which would have all the makings of a new alliance combining two of the strongest warrior races in the world.
An alliance which may or may not happen. And having the mainland opposition fragmented into three parts instead of just two works perfectly fine for the Thalmor. Imagine the situation if the alliance you describe doesn't happen (the Redguards and Nords have a lot of grudges against themselves), the Empire gets even more vulnerable and you have two kingdoms unlikely to be able to defend themselves againts a larger attack (Hammerfell managed to fight the Thalmor to a standstill but it was a situation where they had a lot of Legion veterans left to help them and most of the elven forces were sent to deal with Cyrodiil (and got slaughtered there) and even then the "victory" left a chunk of the province devastated).

veti

2014-09-04, 06:37 PM

Not even if that incident carries a risk of you losing a decent chunk of your forces and supplies before you launch your attack?

Only if you respond to it like - well, like the Empire did. As has been pointed out several times over the last few pages, by more people than me - if the Empire had responded by launching its own war as (allegedly) previously planned, then it would be child's play for a couple of diplomats to smooth over the (essentially, personal) grudge between Ulfric and Elisif, and put Skyrim firmly back in the Imperial fold.

And now you're the one bringing out your own, prejudice-based interpretations.

Indeed. I'm pointing out that there is an alternative interpretation, the whole "strong empire is better for everyone" line is not an axiomatic truth.

An alliance which may or may not happen. And having the mainland opposition fragmented into three parts instead of just two works perfectly fine for the Thalmor. Imagine the situation if the alliance you describe doesn't happen (the Redguards and Nords have a lot of grudges against themselves), the Empire gets even more vulnerable and you have two kingdoms unlikely to be able to defend themselves againts a larger attack (Hammerfell managed to fight the Thalmor to a standstill but it was a situation where they had a lot of Legion veterans left to help them and most of the elven forces were sent to deal with Cyrodiil (and got slaughtered there) and even then the "victory" left a chunk of the province devastated).

Oh, I'm sure the Thalmor would make the best of the situation. They're not stupid. (And as far as I can tell, they're the only faction in the game of whom that can reasonably be said.) And I'll concede that a Stormcloak government would likely be terrible at diplomacy - Ulfric's supporters are not noted for their welcoming, inclusive outreach programme. They've already done their best to alienate Orcs, Dunmer, Argonians and (possibly, depending on whom you believe about the Markarth Incident) Bretons. So yes, this rosy scenario I painted is by no means a sure thing.

But it is at least as plausible as the "reunited empire suddenly rediscovers its cojones and stands up to the Thalmor" fantasy that the pro-Imperial side spends so much time dwelling on.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-05, 02:11 AM

Indeed. I'm pointing out that there is an alternative interpretation, the whole "strong empire is better for everyone" line is not an axiomatic truth..

No, but I wouldn't bet on you as a military strategist if you think a divided force is better than the Empire.

DigoDragon

2014-09-05, 07:39 AM

Well, "not agreeing" is one thing, but just "being unanimously, deafeningly silent about the last 25 years, which you'd think would be freshest in everyone's minds" is something else entirely.

It's one thing to hear contrary opinions about recent events. But in Skyrim, nobody talks about them at all. Seriously, it's as if everyone, books included, has complete amnesia about the last 25 years of history.

With weirdness like the 'Dragon Break', I wonder if that amnesia isn't just hyperbole. :smallsmile:

Gaelbert

2014-09-05, 04:36 PM

No, but I wouldn't bet on you as a military strategist if you think a divided force is better than the Empire.

I don't think anyone's saying that, what people are saying is that it might be worse for the Thalmor.

Divayth Fyr

2014-09-05, 05:13 PM

Only if you respond to it like - well, like the Empire did. As has been pointed out several times over the last few pages, by more people than me - if the Empire had responded by launching its own war as (allegedly) previously planned, then it would be child's play for a couple of diplomats to smooth over the (essentially, personal) grudge between Ulfric and Elisif, and put Skyrim firmly back in the Imperial fold.
One thing to remember is that they want to keep the Empire together and as stable as possible. Showing that you can murder the regional leaders without consequences, or even get rewarded for it (because Ulfric wouldn't accept anything less than fulfilling his demands) isn't the best way to do that.

But it is at least as plausible as the "reunited empire suddenly rediscovers its cojones and stands up to the Thalmor" fantasy that the pro-Imperial side spends so much time dwelling on.
I'm sure the scenario where a group shown to be terrible at diplomacy makes alliances allowing them to stand up to the Thalmor is as plausible as having the Empire that already is gathering forces for the next war to go and fight it...

DomaDoma

2014-09-05, 10:20 PM

Just posting to commend the lot of you for having an Imperials-versus-Stormcloaks debate that doesn't lose track of priorities. I don't think I've ever seen that happen before.

Avilan the Grey

2014-09-06, 03:11 AM

I don't think anyone's saying that, what people are saying is that it might be worse for the Thalmor.

Yes, but two things:
1. What's good for the empire IS bad for the Thalmor
2. ...How? HOW can a weakened enemy, now split into two factions that hate eahother, be WORSE for the Thalmor than an united empire?

DomaDoma

2014-09-06, 08:04 AM

Yes, but two things:
1. What's good for the empire IS bad for the Thalmor
2. ...How? HOW can a weakened enemy, now split into two factions that hate eahother, be WORSE for the Thalmor than an united empire?

If the empire doesn't have the will to fight back, and imposes that on subordinates who do. I'd say (given lack of evidence for the border fortification) that they do lack the will to some extent. Is it a fatal extent? Not a clue.

Ailurus

2014-09-06, 09:52 AM

If the empire doesn't have the will to fight back, and imposes that on subordinates who do. I'd say (given lack of evidence for the border fortification) that they do lack the will to some extent. Is it a fatal extent? Not a clue.

I agree, and also can't think of one in-game case of the Empire where they challenge the Thalmor on even a minor point. Tullius and one or two of the Legion camp commanders talk a decent game, but nothing is ever done. They might be trying to play a long game, but that's an extremely risky proposition against a group who said they're planning on exterminating men century by century.

Furthermore, the Empire is little more than a name at this point. Black Marsh launched an open revolt and then went isolationist. For Morrowind, Vvardenfell exploded and then the Empire wrote off mainlaind Morrowind after it was invaded by Argonians. The Empire similarly abandoned Hammerfell when the Redguards decided they didn't want to give half their province to the Thalmor, Elsweyr, Valenwood and the Summerset Isles are all under Dominion control. So the "Empire" consists of Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil. Skyrim's unhappy with the Cyrodiil, large portions of Cyrodiil are probably in ruin due to civil war, bandits and a Thalmor invasion since the end of the Third Era, and pirates are apparently able to invade major cities in High Rock with little reprisal. So whose to say a union of Skyrim and Hammerfell (and possibly High Rock, since negotiations to connect the regions would be a logical step) would be less powerful than the current union of Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock?

DigoDragon

2014-09-07, 08:28 AM

Well, the Thalmor like, totally wiped the floor with the empire in the war, didn't they?
They may be just paying lip-service until they can figure out a better method of attack.

NEO|Phyte

2014-09-07, 08:32 AM

As I understand it, the Thalmor were winning, but near the end the Empire managed a victory that gave them sufficient breathing room/clout to treaty their way out of a war they were losing.

druid91

2014-09-07, 03:47 PM

As I understand it, the Thalmor were winning, but near the end the Empire managed a victory that gave them sufficient breathing room/clout to treaty their way out of a war they were losing.

I was under the impression that the Thalmor were winning primarily by demoralizing the empire and obfuscating how few forces the Thalmor actually had by making those forces very mobile.

Divayth Fyr

2014-09-07, 04:37 PM

I was under the impression that the Thalmor were winning primarily by demoralizing the empire and obfuscating how few forces the Thalmor actually had by making those forces very mobile.
They did manage to capture a large part of Cyrodiil and even after most of their army got slaughtered fought Hammerfell for the next 5 years. There was more to that than just mobility and obfuscation.

NineThePuma

2014-09-07, 04:51 PM

Is ESO popular enough for us to start a listing of players who are playing ESO in the first post of the next thread?

Nilehus

2014-09-07, 05:19 PM

The subterfuge helped it along, but the Thalmor were definitely a force to be reckoned with. It wasn't just one battalion or soldiers, at least.

But the next incarnation of this thread is going to be something like "It's IX Divines, milk-drinker!", right?

Duck999

2014-09-07, 07:04 PM

Is ESO popular enough for us to start a listing of players who are playing ESO in the first post of the next thread?

The was a ESO thread, but that died out, so I'm not sure if it is really worth it. It might be...

Kareeah_Indaga

2014-09-07, 07:34 PM

Yes I believe "It's IX Divines, Milk-Drinker!" was slated to be next. Is there a system for who makes it or is it just whoever gets to it first?

I was under the impression that the Thalmor were winning primarily by demoralizing the empire and obfuscating how few forces the Thalmor actually had by making those forces very mobile.

You're thinking of the strike where they took Valenwood from the Empire, not the Great War. (Source: Rising Threat, Volume IV. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rising_Threat)) They'd have had time to build up their armies between the two. (Not that they couldn't have had the advantage of mobility/good spies AND greater numbers of course...)