The Mechanics of Illusion Magic

[Pinkcrusade]

Hello, Playground.

I am thinking of creating a purely Illusion magic based character, and I had a few questions pertaining to this school of magic.

First, how exactly do they work? So, let's say I create the sound of a dragon roaring, and the enemies believe it is real: what are the the mechanics behind if they run away or not? Is it up to DM interpretation? For instance, if I cast the Fear spell on an enemy and they fail, they -have- to flee for a given amount of time if they fail the Save DC. Is there anything like this for Illusion?


That is all.

Thanks!

[nedz]

DM interpretation: because it's all down to how the NPCs react to what they are seeing/hearing.

[Diarmuid]

For your specific example, there is no mechanical representation of what happens when hearing a dragon roar. If the NPC's fail their saves, then it's totally up to the DM to determine appropriate response.

Illusion can be very cool, or it can be very disappointing. You really need to a DM who's really good at thinking on their feet and everyone involved needs to be really clear on how figments, vs phantasms, etc really work.

[Particle_Man]

If they fail their saves, they believe they hear a dragon's roar. This would cause most low level beings to flee, I would imagine (I would!). But "hero" types might conclude "Aha! A dragon I could slay and gain great glory and renown for so doing!" and look for the source of the sound, weapon drawn, etc.

[Deophaun]

Keep in mind, they aren't going to get any save unless they interact with the illusion. How you can interact with a dragon's roar is beyond me, so you're likely looking at no save whatsoever.

[Psyren]

As others have said, a large part of illusion's effectiveness is very DM-situational, specifically around the two thorny "interaction" questions. (Those questions of course being "what counts as interaction," and "what happens if they disbelieve it?" - with the latter being particularly relevant to auditory or olfactory illusions.)

One often-overlooked form of interaction is that of expectation - i.e. what the victim expects to see/hear/etc when confronted with an illusion. The Giant had a good example here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html) (even though Roy wasn't playing 3e) by having an ogre grow suspicious when Roy's illusory door was missing a key detail; I would grant the ogre in that scenario a will save, or if he walked up and poked at the door he would realize the illusion with no need to roll. Similarly, if I'm a dungeon guard who's been patrolling dungeon X for awhile, and I see a wall where a door should be, or a closed and open door in the same archway, I would probably be entitled to a will save just based on my memories/expectations of the layout.

So going back to the dragon's roar question - no interaction, just reaction, is a valid ruling (though some guards may react with curiosity+trepidation rather than abject terror.) However, it's equally valid for the guard to conclude that wherever they are it should be impossible or improbable to find a dragon, leading them not to trust their own ears.


Regardless, this is one of the reason shadow illusions are so often recommended for illusion players. They are always effective regardless of DM ruling, and many of the same things that boost shadow illusions boost the regular kind too, e.g. Spell Focus.

[nedz]

If they fail their saves, they believe they hear a dragon's roar. This would cause most low level beings to flee, I would imagine (I would!). But "hero" types might conclude "Aha! A dragon I could slay and gain great glory and renown for so doing!" and look for the source of the sound, weapon drawn, etc.

No, they just hear a loudish roar. They don't know it's meant to be a dragon — that's just in the caster's head. It may cause them to stop and wonder what might be making that noise however.

[Psyren]

No, they just hear a loudish roar. They don't know it's meant to be a dragon — that's just in the caster's head. It may cause them to stop and wonder what might be making that noise however.

I believe it's a bluff check to do specific sounds - at least, that's how Create Sound works so I could see using that for similar effects.

[Kraken]

TO me, the best use of illusions is for battlefield control. Many enemies simply aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a conjured obstacle and an illusory one, and with a single action on your part, you can often get multiple enemies to waste several actions dealing with your trickery. Especially once minor image comes online, and it lasts 2 rounds past when you begin concentrating.

[DarkSonic1337]

Everyone involved needs to be really clear on how figments, vs phantasms, etc really work.

How do these actually work btw?

[Deophaun]

TO me, the best use of illusions is for battlefield control. Many enemies simply aren't going to be able to tell the difference between a conjured obstacle and an illusory one, and with a single action on your part, you can often get multiple enemies to waste several actions dealing with your trickery.
All you need is one enemy to be trained in spellcraft, and that's completely wasted. It gets really bad if you overreach and try to make an illusion of something solid (like a wall of stone), as objects (e.g. arrows) and people start passing through it, the jig is up.

[Psyren]

How do these actually work btw?

Figments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#figment)
Phantasms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#phantasm)

(Were you just asking in general, or was there something specific you wanted cleared up?)

[nedz]

I believe it's a bluff check to do specific sounds - at least, that's how Create Sound works so I could see using that for similar effects.
But have either party ever heard a Dragon ? Even if the caster has, if the targets haven't then the sound won't mean anything to them — other than it's a large creature.
I've always thought the illusions should require some kind of artistic skill; by RAW they don't of course.


All you need is one enemy to be trained in spellcraft, and that's completely wasted. It gets really bad if you overreach and try to make an illusion of something solid (like a wall of stone), as objects (e.g. arrows) and people start passing through it, the jig is up.

Only if they see you cast: Range, Line of Sight, Concealed spellcasting skill trick, Still spell even. Getting these spells to work is an art, which can be flubbed quite easily.

[Kraken]

All you need is one enemy to be trained in spellcraft, and that's completely wasted. It gets really bad if you overreach and try to make an illusion of something solid (like a wall of stone), as objects (e.g. arrows) and people start passing through it, the jig is up.

Like anything else, it's not a catch all. Though with that said, your first example is uncommon, and there's also a good chance you'll be able to identify when that's the case. Even then, there's an extent to which that's only relevant if every enemy is trained with spellcraft, then you simply don't target them with trickery, because even if they do shout to their allies that something is an illusion, that only gets them a +4 bonus to their will save, and if they have brutes as henchmen, they still might have a poor chance of success.

Your second example would represent poor skill on the mage's part, if they're putting the illusion in a situation where solid objects will pass through it immediately. Regardless, it is inevitable that the illusion will be found out, your degree of success is measured in how many enemy actions you wasted versus how many you spent.

[Gotterdammerung]

Google all about illusions part 1-4

[Deophaun]

Only if they see you cast....
That only gives them an effective +5 to their spellcraft check. A DC 20+Spell level check still let's them know exactly what spell caused a wall to pop up in the middle of a battlefield, whether or not they saw someone cast it. And Spellcraft is ridiculously easy to pump.

Even then, there's an extent to which that's only relevant if every enemy is trained with spellcraft, then you simply don't target them with trickery, because even if they do shout to their allies that something is an illusion, that only gets them a +4 bonus to their will save, and if they have brutes as henchmen, they still might have a poor chance of success.
The bonus is irrelevant. The wizard just told them the wall doesn't exist. They walk through it. Auto-disbelieve on contact.

Your second example would represent poor skill on the mage's part, if they're putting the illusion in a situation where solid objects will pass through it immediately.
The more enemies on the field, the more likely something will immediately pass through it. So it's a poor battlefield control spell.

[Kraken]

That only gives them an effective +5 to their spellcraft check. A DC 20+Spell level check still let's them know exactly what spell caused a wall to pop up in the middle of a battlefield, whether or not they saw someone cast it. And Spellcraft is ridiculously easy to pump.

The bonus is irrelevant. The wizard just told them the wall doesn't exist. They walk through it. Auto-disbelieve on contact.

The more enemies on the field, the more likely something will immediately pass through it. So it's a poor battlefield control spell.

"A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."

I'm not really buying that people would walk directly into walls if told to do so if they failed their save again, because failing their save specifically means they fail to notice something is amiss. Frankly, I think they'd be more likely to question what they just heard than charge at a wall. People don't charge at walls unless they suspect something is amiss, to claim otherwise is flatly absurd. That also assumes the caster thinks to tell them, that there's a caster in the first place, and that they can hear the caster in the middle of a battle, let alone understand them if they do hear them. The listener is going to be distracted for +5 to the DC, each 10' is another +1, and merely hearing isn't sufficient, you need to understand, so that's yet another +10.

Additionally, minor image gives you "Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)." That's huge enough that you should be compartmentalizing enemies if there are as many as you describe, to minimize the number that can benefit from someone successfully disbelieving the illusion.

Now with that said, I agree that nine times out of ten, there's a better spell for the job, if you happen to have it prepared, in that the better spell will cost your enemies more actions to your one action. The strength of minor image is its incredible versatility, in case you've expended or not prepared a more appropriate spell. You needn't limit yourself to just walls, for instance. If you're being attacked by a bunch of archers, summon an illusory fog cloud between you and them. The only way they'll be able to disbelieve it is by walking into it and noticing that it doesn't feel moist and clammy, and I think we can both agree that, when presented with such an obstacle, nobody is going to think to walk into it to check this. Or in the event of someone telling them it's not real, they still need to make the save to disbelieve it to be able to see through it to shoot through it. Really, you're only limited by your imagination, there could be an entire handbook written for clever illusion tactics.

[nedz]

The more enemies on the field, the more likely something will immediately pass through it. So it's a poor battlefield control spell.

You've mangled your quotes.

[Deophaun]

Frankly, I think they'd be more likely to question what they just heard than charge at a wall. People don't charge at walls unless they suspect something is amiss, to claim otherwise is flatly absurd.
No one is saying they charge at the wall: they can't charge because they don't have LoS to their target. Normal movement is fine, and if they have doubts, well, that's why they point their sword/spear/axe/hand out. Even if they are running, they move so that they impact the "wall" with their shoulder. I don't even think there's any rule about people taking damage if they run full-tilt into a wall, which makes all the above unnecessary.

That also assumes the caster thinks to tell them
Yes, because casters that see illusions go up are highly unlikely to tell their allies...

that there's a caster in the first place
I wonder if that's what "you need one enemy trained in spellcraft" means?

and that they can hear the caster in the middle of a battle, let alone understand them if they do hear them. The listener is going to be distracted for +5 to the DC, each 10' is another +1, and merely hearing isn't sufficient, you need to understand, so that's yet another +10.
Really? Really?

First, if you don't do the exact same thing to your players, then no, this isn't an issue at all.

Second, if you do do this to your players, that means that this is a known issue in combat, and message exists. Oh, and look, it's a cantrip. Given the huge tactical advantage this single cantrip now represents in such a game world, it's only logical most spellcasters have this.

Additionally, minor image gives you "Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)." That's huge enough that you should be compartmentalizing enemies if there are as many as you describe, to minimize the number that can benefit from someone successfully disbelieving the illusion.
There are big problems with this. First being that the more people are compartmentalized, the harder it is to pass off as a normal spell, which points more to it being an illusion. Second, the more people are penned in by an illusion, the more their first instinct is going to be to do something that puts them in contact with it, thus automatically disbelieving. Third, the illusion still doesn't block sound.

You've mangled your quotes.
:smalleek: Terribly sorry.

[Kraken]

No one is saying they charge at the wall: they can't charge because they don't have LoS to their target. Normal movement is fine, and if they have doubts, well, that's why they point their sword/spear/axe/hand out. Even if they are running, they move so that they impact the "wall" with their shoulder. I don't even think there's any rule about people taking damage if they run full-tilt into a wall, which makes all the above unnecessary.

Yes, because casters that see illusions go up are highly unlikely to tell their allies...

I wonder if that's what "you need one enemy trained in spellcraft" means?

Really? Really?

First, if you don't do the exact same thing to your players, then no, this isn't an issue at all.

Second, if you do do this to your players, that means that this is a known issue in combat, and message exists. Oh, and look, it's a cantrip. Given the huge tactical advantage this single cantrip now represents in such a game world, it's only logical most spellcasters have this.

There are big problems with this. First being that the more people are compartmentalized, the harder it is to pass off as a normal spell, which points more to it being an illusion. Second, the more people are penned in by an illusion, the more their first instinct is going to be to do something that puts them in contact with it, thus automatically disbelieving. Third, the illusion still doesn't block sound.

:smalleek: Terribly sorry.

While it's a fair mistake to make because they are defined game terms, in general, you are ascribing too much emphasis to the individual words that I am posting. For instance, I did not intend for charge to mean the game action charge, nor did intend to imply casters are the only things you'll encounter with spellcraft - though the idea of NPC non-casters burning precious skill points on spellcraft is kinda silly, let alone a significant enough amount to get a spellcraft modifier sufficient to reliably hit the 15+spell level DC requirement to identify a spell. And anyone that fails the spellcraft check, and certainly anyone that doesn't even have it as a trained skill, isn't going to think 'that spell is shaped funny, it must be an illusion.' And regardless, wall of stone allows you to fashion "almost any shape you desire," so in terms of unusual effects, a wall of stone illusion is, provided you don't make the stone feature ornate decorations, complex moving parts, or other extraneous features, likely indistinguishable from the real thing, even to someone familiar with the actual wall of stone spell (provided they failed their will save and so forth, of course).

I can see a PC non-caster grabbing spellcraft and doing some of these things, but the idea of any significant amount of foot soldiers doing it is implausible, I'd be shocked if that popped up more than ultra rarely in both pre made adventures and DM created NPC non-casters. There are monsters with spellcraft as a skill, but I'm not sure many of those monsters aren't also casters, such as couatls and solars, and even among caster monsters, planetars hilariously don't have any ranks in spellcraft, though at least they have a +6 int mod, and presumably because they cast as clerics it's usable as a class skill. Way to go WotC. :smallbiggrin:

While it's entirely plausible that someone aware of the illusion would tell allies, and it's even likely, there's also plenty of reasons to think that they wouldn't immediately tell them. Perhaps because they don't yet realize their allies have been fooled by the illusion, perhaps they are not aware of the nature of the illusion if they're not paying close attention to it (why did that dummy just conjure an imaginary wall/pit/fog/killer alpaca), or perhaps they're even in a position where they don't have LoS to the illusion. Even then, the point of that entire sentence which you sarcastically quoted only an excerpt of, is that multiple conditions need to fall into place for the caster (remember, I'm using this and similar words loosely) to spread awareness of the illusion to non-casters, and even then, their attempts to get that message to them might not save many, or any, of them from wasting their next turn. Sure, message would reliably convey the info you want, but that strikes me as a pretty poor use of a standard action in combat (it being used at all would be a score for the illusionist), and I see no reason to believe that it even make the recipients automatically disbelieve the illusion any differently than shouting would.

And yes, we do restrict conversing in the battlefield. But not really for any rules reason - if anything upon examination it works out more harshly than the rules would otherwise have it be - we do it just to keep the game moving, and to prevent each action being a committee move. It actually does a decent job of making combat feel less turn based and flow a bit more like an actual battle. Until someone gets hung up and starts asking a million questions. C'est la vie.

But even what you're describing as the ideal scenario for the defenders still strikes me as an effective move by the illusionist. Let's say the minions hear the caster, person who made their save, or whatever, and choose not to question what they just heard as being madness or a misunderstanding of some sort, and they decide to take a chance following their instructions to wander into what they believe to be an entirely real barrier. Every response you described still results in multiple wasted actions on the part of enemies needing to poke around at the barrier to first go through it, wasting a turn instead of attacking. At the cost of one action on the part of the illusionist, that's still a win. If there's a spell whose effect was 'make multiple enemies do dumb stuff for one turn,' it'd join the ranks of glitterdust and grease in terms of never going out of style at any level. This result is achievable routinely with minor image. And then of course, the best case scenario is that some or all of the creatures in your miniature, illusory, labyrinth spend multiple turns wasting their time trying to get out, and their allies waste actions trying to message them.

But let's back up here, because for some reason, we've start assuming wall of stone. Let's roll with wall of thorns instead, as that's something that people are going to be considerably more hesitant to try and walk through - making illusions scarier to test will go a long way towards making the non-believer more likely to shy away from instructions to test them, especially once major image comes online, and you can make illusory walls of magma. Major image's ability to add thermal effects all on its own adds for so many new possibilities. Further, walls are but one tool. Fog, as I've mentioned, is incredibly effective in certain circumstances, and even more difficult to disbelieve because seeing an object go into it isn't unusual at all. Because there's no way for them to interact with it, archers would need to specifically be told it was an illusion by someone (difficult if they're spread out, easier if not), and even then still need to make a save to disbelieve it. Anyone that doesn't recognize the illusion is unable to target the combat going on in the fog. And on a cold, damp, day, even enemy melee combatants within the fog might not be able to recognize it as an illusion immediately. :smallbiggrin: Minor image creating pits of acid are another good option that an enemy is unlikely to want to test.

[Particle_Man]

The bonus is irrelevant. The wizard just told them the wall doesn't exist. They walk through it. Auto-disbelieve on contact.

That's when you conjure up a real wall of fire, followed by a ghost sound in the wizard's voice telling them the wall of fire doesn't exist, just walk through it. :smallsmile:

[felinoel]

As a DM I once made this insane illusion mage.
I fudged a few things (being the DM) but essentially said that I was using force spells as a mechanic to give the illusions tangibility and allow them to damage players.

I'm sure you could find a legit way to do that.


EDIT:

That's when you conjure up a real wall of fire, followed by a ghost sound in the wizard's voice telling them the wall of fire doesn't exist, just walk through it. :smallsmile:
lol or a wall of force to go with what I said above, make the wall seem real with that wall of force.

[TuggyNE]

Or at high levels, make an illusionary wall with a prismatic wall behind it! :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Or at high levels, make an illusionary wall with a prismatic wall behind it! :smallbiggrin:

Or a vacuum chamber with the illusion of air. :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

I wrote a post about just this question once. here's my approach to playing an illusionist:


the name of the game is absolutely to keep your enemies guessing. If I had to sum up playing an illusionist effectively in one word, it would be this:

Confusion.

No, not that one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm), but rather the concept as a whole.

The problem that a lot of players who are new to playing illusionists (by which I mean characters who specialise in illusion, not just specialised wizards) run into is trying to focus too narrowly on illusions. What do I mean by this?

Well, illusions are dangerous/useful when paired partially with real things, right? If you hide the secret door that you and the party ducked into with, say, a silent image of smooth stone over the seam so that the guards going up and down the hall, it's really only useful because there was a wall there in the first place for it to blend into, right? You wouldn't just cast a wall in the middle of nowhere, that would look silly.

Think of your magic as a whole like this. you don't need to conjure from whole cloth, you just need to embellish slightly on what is already there. Like when you're trying to make a master of disguise, when you're not impersonating a specific individual, but rather want a safe "adventuring face'', you always go for "minor details only" since it grants a +5 to the check.

By the same token of logic, there is often an advantage to being subtle with your illusions rather than bombastic with them. Remember the adage about special effects in movies, a contemporary example of IRL illusions: If you notice it's there, then it's failed.

First timers with illusion spells are tempted to do stuff like make dragons appear to ward off enemies with the x image spells. the shortish duration, limited range they can move around in, and their high likelihood (in most cases) to be "interacted with" in the form of attack makes them generally poor choices.

Think of illusion as an optical illusion (technically, it is anyway) and your job as supplying the enemy with what they are expecting to see rather than what they're not.

You're running down that stone hallway again away from the guard patrol. there is a T intersection at the end. Wat do? Don't make a wall, they know the halls, they'll be entitled to a save or might just open fire. make a silent image of long shadows falling in the opposite direction.

You seldom want to surprise your enemies with illusion. Quite the opposite, you want to lull them into a false sense of security. This makes it much more satisfying (and fun) when you go in for the kill, depending on your preferred method of dispatch.

What I've been talking about up till now is using illusion on its own. But, since it's more of a garnish than a main dish, and a caster can't survive on illusions alone, you'll probably be supplementing it with other kinds of spells too (whether it be through other schools as a wizard, through wands as a beguiler, or through other slots as a sorcerer or chameleon, since I don't know exactly what kind of class you're planning on)

since illusions function best by building off what's "already there" as it were, like by covering the seam for the secret door earlier on, they go really well with conjuration spells.

the consequence for believing an illusory allip is real? waste your actions for a few rounds.

the consequences for failing to believe a real allip is real? enjoy your wis drain.

If you have summoning spells in your repetoire, a great way to enhance their usefulness on the battlefield is by supplementing them with illusions via spells like minor image (especially for monsters like allips, who don't make any discernable sound) or phantom battle.

if you can summon one allip in a battle, you're a real badass, but if you can suddenly summon 2 or 3, then your enemies will be quite disheartened. assuming one makes the save against a fake, after the real one drains some wis from one of them, they won't know what to think, and that can really turn the tide in a battle that you're (in actuality) outnumbered in.

just as making things appear (with the "image" line, nightmare terrain, illusory pit, etc) is an important part of illusion, so too is making things disappear. invisibility is good for more than just getting SA dice an extra time (though it is pretty great at that)

you're running down the hallway (again) from the guard patrol. there is no T intersection or turns. no secret door either, your DM is wise to your ways. wat do? A wall won't work, he reminds you, they patrol this place regularly and know how long the hall is by exactly how many paces they take every day. not wholly unreasonable, you think.

well then, if a fake wall that they can see is out, then the inverse must also be true. wall of stone + invisibility (or invisible spell if your DM is okay with that use of it) = winning. the guards see you going down the hall plain as day and chase after to hit a stone wall. you could probably wrangle a little damage out of that (it'd hurt) and they'd certainly be confused about how to overcome a wall that they can't see (digging/pickaxing their way through would be difficult without being able to ascertain progress) and depending on the height of the ceiling, you might be able to prevent them from climbing over by sealing off your escape route entirely.

while the specifics may vary depending on exactly what kind of character you want to play, just remember:

fake things can only blend in when there's something to blend in with. either use the environment or conjure something. you always want there to be a consequence for the enemy when they disbelieve your illusions.