Swordsage dipping

[ramrod]

Hi guys, I have an unarmed swordsage at level 6 and I'm trying to decide between continuing on with swordsage or making a dip into another class.


With dips, I'm considering dipping into rogue, for extra sneak attack but don't like it due to loss of bab. So alternatively I'm wondering if I dipped into crusader, would I also gain the crusader recovery mechanic? At the moment, I do have adaptive style, which is nice but requires dropping out of combat for a round and was hoping that if I picked crusader, I might get some back randomly each round?

[Boci]

You would use seperate recovery systems for separate maneuvers. So your crusader maneuvers would be recovered randomly, whilst your swordsage maneuvres would still be recovered one by one. Both could then be recovered by adaptive style, presumably with the same action.

If your DM is using fragmented BAB from Unearthed Arcana then there would be no loss to BAB from dipping rogue. Might be worth while then, so you could ask them.

[kpumphre]

A level of Fighter would give nice bonuses and it will actually put your level higher than going straight sword sage.

That is for one level dip only

[ramrod]

Never really understood fractional bab, will look it up now. We do operate under fractional bab.

I will look at fighter, but last time I looked I couldn't see much benefit in it.

Even if the recovery mechanics are different for crusader and swordsage it should still give me 5 extra maneuvers and a stance, which should never runout, meaning I shouldn't need to drop out of combat to refresh every so often?

[Rebel7284]

What tactics is your swordsage using/planning to use? What do you focus on? You can certainly dip another TOB class and enter Master of Nine.

Altenatively, a cloisted cleric dip can be super effective with a few utility spells, and several free feats (for example, Trade some of your domains away for devotion feats and end up with Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Blind Fight from a domain.)

You could even combine all these ideas and go Swordsage 6/Cleric 1/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Mo9 5

[Boci]

Never really understood fractional bab, will look it up now. We do operate under fractional bab.

Basically ignore what the tables say and give yourself 0.75 BAB for each level in swordsage and rogue you have.

[kpumphre]

Fighter gives you higher level for your maneuvers, higher Bab, good Fort, and a feat. I did it for my 8th level unarmed sword sage. My suggestion is to take snap kick asap

[Regis_is_a_bro]

Fighter gives you higher level for your maneuvers, higher Bab, good Fort, and a feat. I did it for my 8th level unarmed sword sage. My suggestion is to take snap kick asap

Yeah, I agree, Fighter is definitely good for a one level dip. That extra feat is always nice.

[kpumphre]

I would wait till you would have the 6/1 attack bonus for better feat choices Level 8 I think

[ramrod]

What tactics is your swordsage using/planning to use? What do you focus on? You can certainly dip another TOB class and enter Master of Nine.

Altenatively, a cloisted cleric dip can be super effective with a few utility spells, and several free feats (for example, Trade some of your domains away for devotion feats and end up with Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Blind Fight from a domain.)

You could even combine all these ideas and go Swordsage 6/Cleric 1/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Mo9 5

At the moment I'm actually the party tank... Sound odd but we ended up with no tank, I do an ok job with 24 ac, 20% concealment and max hps, but I'm actually aimed at being sneaky and agile, jumping in and out of combat with the occasional flurry for double backstabbing.

Master of nine might be an option but doubt the campaign will go on that long to reach it. But having a load of extra maneuvers and a stance might be cool, aiming for master of nine in case it does come up. Alternatively, I suppose cloistered could be good for extra domain feats...

[Harlot]

Swordsage is a lot of things, and your choice should depend on you specialization.

If I understand you correctly, you are level 6, which means you actually only have accessed maneuveres up to level 3, right? (initiator level 6)
In that case, continue exploring the possiblities, as you haven't tried the coolest stuff yet. The awesome maneuvers IMO are from initiator levels 7-12. (thats where the true damage output starts.)

From what you write, you seem to be dabbling with a lot of different Martial Disciplines at the same time? Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw at least, and they kind of pull in different directions.

If you stay Swordsage, which I recommend, I believe you should carefully study what the different Martial Disciplines do, and the decide what sort of killer you want to be. Narrow down your focus to just two disciplines that work for you and then max them out, taking all stances and maneuvers from those 2, maybe 3 disciplines.

Then max out whatever skills they rely on (jump for Tiger, Concentration for Diamond mind etc) so that you hardly ever fail a maneuvre. Then raise hell!

If I misunderstood you, and you've already tried that, then again: Figure out what kind of tank you are and then look for synergies before you multiclass (I assume you dont do penalties for multiclassing in your group!?):

If you're already going Shadow Hand/Desert Wind, there's synergies with rogue, which you problably already know.(3d6 sneak attack for starters)

If you're into Tiger Claw/Setting Sun, monk makes sense (if it's just a dip!)
If you're into Diamond Mind, maybe some caster of sorts, as you already depend on high concentration checks, which the casters also need.

But as written above, to me it seems you have not yet discovered the awesome potential the Swordsage has, given a little more study on your part. I may be wrong, and if so, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post.

[Phelix-Mu]

You could dip Sneak Attack fighter variant. That would get you the extra Sneak Attack without losing the BAB. Lose a bunch of skill points, though, and pick up basically no useful class skills.

There is a PrC, Dread Commando, from Heroes of Battle, but I can't recall if it grants Sneak Attack dice. Otherwise has some interesting stealth and teamwork benefits.

[Red Fel]

Even if the recovery mechanics are different for crusader and swordsage it should still give me 5 extra maneuvers and a stance, which should never runout, meaning I shouldn't need to drop out of combat to refresh every so often?

Even with only Swordsage, you shouldn't drop out of combat to refresh. The Adaptive Style feat is practically a class tax. The official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) has confirmed that Adaptive Style not only allows you to change your readied maneuvers, but it also refreshes them. Thus, instead of dropping out of combat, you simply take your full round action, and recover all of your maneuvers - changing them only if you want to. One round, easy fix for Swordsage.

[gorfnab]

A level or two of Barbarian might be useful especially with the right ACFs.
Spirit Totem: Lion (CC)
Whirling Frenzy (UA)
City Brawler (Dragon #349)
Wolf Totem (UA)

Also, these may be of use.
Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531) Handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783)

[ramrod]

Even with only Swordsage, you shouldn't drop out of combat to refresh. The Adaptive Style feat is practically a class tax. The official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) has confirmed that Adaptive Style not only allows you to change your readied maneuvers, but it also refreshes them. Thus, instead of dropping out of combat, you simply take your full round action, and recover all of your maneuvers - changing them only if you want to. One round, easy fix for Swordsage.

The full round action is the dropping out of combat that I was talking about. It's relatively minor, but once per combat, sometimes twice, having to spend ant entire round doing nothing can be serious ass ache.

Either way, seriously considering a cleric dip. All clerics in campaign are cloistered clerics. I don't lose bab due to fractional bab and thinking that I could play a little into the knowledge devotion/domain thing and get myself some bonus to hit and damage on to of other things.

Any other big benefits of dipping cloistered cleric 1?

[Red Fel]

The primary benefits of dipping CC are (1) Domains (and the attendant feat swaps); (2) Cleric spells (or what few you get for a one-level dip); (3) Turn Undead (mostly for the ability to fuel other things); and (4) prereqs. Anything that requires/advances divine spellcasting or requires TU can be satisfied by an appropriate CC dip. (I'm looking at you, RKV.)

Of course, #1 is the main one for a single-level CC dip; the rest are very minor benefits by comparison. (TU is nice, however, because it's independent of Cleric level.)

[herrhauptmann]

Never really understood fractional bab, will look it up now. We do operate under fractional bab.

I will look at fighter, but last time I looked I couldn't see much benefit in it.

Even if the recovery mechanics are different for crusader and swordsage it should still give me 5 extra maneuvers and a stance, which should never runout, meaning I shouldn't need to drop out of combat to refresh every so often?

Fractional bab? Then dipping rogue won't hurt your bab at all.
At every level with 'medium' bab (rogue/cleric/druid/swordsage) you get .75 points of bab. Round down when calculating number of attacks.
So swordsage6/rogue1 has the same bab as rogue7, or druid1/rogue1/cleric1/swordsage1/monk1/bard1/binder1.

Fractional saves is a LITTLE more complicated.

[gorfnab]

Any other big benefits of dipping cloistered cleric 1?
There's a handbook for that. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0)

[Crake]

Fighter gives you higher level for your maneuvers, higher Bab, good Fort, and a feat. I did it for my 8th level unarmed sword sage. My suggestion is to take snap kick asap

Fighter advances initiator level at the same rate as every other non-initiator class, so compared to rogue, there's no initiator-based benefits on taking fighter, other than the bonus fighter feat which could be used to possibly get martial study or the like.

[ramrod]

I've read the cleric dipping guide but whilst awesome, it is very general. Any recommendations on domains or devotion feats?

[Kennisiou]

Turning Knowledge Domain into Knowledge Devotion is always a classic. If you have the skill points to spare and the knowledge skills as a class skill (religion, arcana, nature, and the planes are the big four with dungeoneering and local having a few important types as well) you can get a pretty sizeable increase in damage. Travel domain > travel devotion is another good one, being able to swift action move for a whole minute multiple times per day is solid. For other devotions Air Devotion, Chaos Devotion, Death Devotion, Earth Devotion, Law Devotion, and Trickery Devotion can all be really strong. Undeath domain's domain power gives you Extra Turning as a bonus feat, which is really solid if you pick a devotion feat that you'd like more uses of a day.

Animal Domain is nice since you can cast speak with animals and gain Knowledge (nature) for your knowledge devotion if you don't already have it, both pretty solid benefits. Celerity domain gives you 10 bonus movespeed as long as you're in light or lighter armor and carrying a light load (which, as a sword sage, should be always). City domain grabs Gather Information and Knowldge (local) to your class skill list, both of which are really good skills. Dream Domain just makes you outright immune to fear, which is great as long as you aren't looking to qualify for the feat Craven. Gluttony domain lets you increase your size as if by the enlarge person spell 1 round per Cleric level you possess in total time as a free action (ended also as a free action). It's not bad, but you'll want some way to trick it into thinking you have more cleric levels. Hunger domain gives you a natural weapon bite attack. Kobold domain gives you trapfinding (as the class feature), as well as adding disable device and search to your class skill list. Pestilence domain makes you immune to the effects of all diseases (although you're still a carrier for them). Renewal domain heals you for 1d8 + charisma modifier HP if you ever drop below 0 (fails to heal if you go to -10), effectively giving you an extra life once a day, but HP damage is often not going to be your biggest threat later in the game and you also are still stuck in whatever bad position dropped you that low in the first place, making this a pretty poor solution to that problem. Still, if you lack even a poor solution, renewal domain will help.

There's also a ton of bonus feat domains. The best one in general is probably Time for Improved Initiative (and the aforementioned Undeath Domain for Extra Turning), while Planning domain for Extend Spell is really useful for a number of builds involving Cleric for its casting.

So, yeah. Basically those are your main options, and some looking at the specific devotion feats or help from other people in the threads can probably help you narrow it down further.

[Ruethgar]

Sneak attack fighter gets you your sneak attack damage, higher BAB and more HP than a rogue. Less on the skills though.

[Norin]

Sneak attack fighter gets you your sneak attack damage, higher BAB and more HP than a rogue. Less on the skills though.

Srd says you can combine it with Thug Fighter. That will grant you 4+int and adds some rogue like skills to your class list.

[ramrod]

I would automatically get knowledge domain, which I would switch for knowledge devotion for the bonus to hit and damage. Is there any other synergy that will work with it?


If I recall correctly cloistered clerics automatically get all knowledges don't they?

[Adverb]

If you're going to dip a level of a class that isn't a full-IL prestige class, I recommend considering picking up two, because of how IL progression works.

If you don't want to walk away from Swordsage too hard, consider a single level of Shadow Sun Ninja. Reasons I think this is a swell idea:

* As an Unarmed Swordsage, you probably already qualify for it.
* As an Unarmed Swordsage, your unarmed damage will keep increasing. This means that Touch of the Shadow Sun becomes more and more awesome over time.
* You get a maneuver known which is from one of only two schools, but those schools are strong right now, especially Shadow Garrote and Comet Throw.
* Three good saves. (Without fractional BAB, this is good. With it, it's like free candy.)

Your maneuvers-readied lags a level behind, which is a bit sad. Also, your even Swordsage levels become awesome at the cost of your odd Swordsage levels becoming a little lame: Normally, access to new maneuver levels lines up staggers with the even-numbered level retraining option, so you get a shiny maneuver thing every level, and with a single level of a full-IL PrC these become lined up instead.

The usefulness of Touch of the Shadow Sun varies, and in hardcore high-op groups with a bucket of healing wands it may never be worth the cost of "I could have used a strike that round." But three good saves is good crunch, and being able to turn damage into healing is just cool.

Alternatively, if you just want to have an obnoxiously high number of maneuvers that you can shuffle around with Adaptive Style, take a level each of Crusader and Warblade.

[Darrin]

If I recall correctly cloistered clerics automatically get all knowledges don't they?

Not exactly. Knowledge domain gives them all knowledge skills as class skills, but if you trade the domain for the devotion, you only get the knowledge skills that clerics typically get, plus one knowledge skill chosen as part of taking the Knowledge devotion.

[ramrod]

I have checked though and conveniently cleric and swordsage actually covers virtually all of the main mobs that you would need to do knowledge checks on anyway. The only shame is that I won't have enough skill points to get the skill trick that gives plus five to all knowledge check on enemies.

I have looked at shadow ninja, but it just seems pretty weak sauce and if I recall correctly requires some odd feats for entry. Just doesn't seem worth the hassle. :(

[ramrod]

Correction on entry requirements, I was thinking of master of the nine.

[Venger]

You could dip Sneak Attack fighter variant. That would get you the extra Sneak Attack without losing the BAB. Lose a bunch of skill points, though, and pick up basically no useful class skills.

There is a PrC, Dread Commando, from Heroes of Battle, but I can't recall if it grants Sneak Attack dice. Otherwise has some interesting stealth and teamwork benefits.

dread commando actually grants the vastly inferior sudden strike ability. plus it requires dodge/mobility.

[ramrod]

Eugh... I'm just no closer to actually making a decision about this!

If I go clustered cleric and burn my skills on knowledges, I'll gain at least +1 to hit and damage from knowledge devotion, first level cleric spells (blade of blood for a swift action extra 3d6 damage...) and a few extra devotion feats. Although I know my DM will make me find a relevant deity to meet the needs, so it's not as though I'm going to be able to cherry pick devotions. I also only have 6 charisma so turn undead attempts are rather limited.

If I dip crusader, I basically get +1 to attack and damage from furious counter strike, a load of extra maneuvers which means I'll never run out, but most f the maneuvers I can pick from are less desirable anyway. Not many decent picks at initiator level 2 or below. Plus it's still only technically half initiator level as they are tracked separately.

Going straight swordsage doesn't really get me much either, but I'm going to take more levels anyway, unless I find something I want to cross into permanently.

Picking rogue, or something similar for extra sneak attack seems quite weak, a level dip for an extra d6... Although it won't be long before that's three attacks in a round for 3d6 extra...


Someone decide for me? Lol

[Sam K]

If I dip crusader, I basically get +1 to attack and damage from furious counter strike, a load of extra maneuvers which means I'll never run out, but most f the maneuvers I can pick from are less desirable anyway. Not many decent picks at initiator level 2 or below. Plus it's still only technically half initiator level as they are tracked separately.

Going straight swordsage doesn't really get me much either, but I'm going to take more levels anyway, unless I find something I want to cross into permanently.

Swordsage gets you more maneuvers... that's pretty much the main feature of martial adepts.

I would say go crusader only if/when you will get access to lvl 3 maneuvers and stances. That way, you'll be able to pick up thicket of blades (THE tank stance at low-mid levels) and white raven tactics (one of the best buffs in the game, even if your DM wont let you use it on yourself).

If you want a more offensive dip, how about warblade? A bit more bookkeeping than crusader (you have to actively recover your moves), but you can get things like punishing stance, which should be better than sneak attack in most ways (yes, you take an AC hit while using it, but the damage works on everything, unlike sneak attack), wall of blades (parry rays!) and iron heart surge.

Ofcourse, rogue with the craven feat could be pretty good damage. Sneak attack with bonus damage, throw in assassin stance, and it will add up. Hard to do if you're tanking though.

[Adverb]

Per RAW, you can only take a first-level stance with your first level of Cru/SwSa/Wrb, no matter what your IL is when you take it.

Dipping late for White Raven Tactics is a solid play, though.

[ramrod]

I already have craven and despite tanking mange to pull off sneak attack most rounds through invis, distracting ember and just being fan in my feet tumbling through enemies to maintain good position. Craven is nice, an extra 7 damage per sneak attack :)

[ramrod]

I did think about just sticking with swordsage until I can get 3rd level maneuvers with crusader.. Nothing much useful to pick up between level one and two. I was hoping that I would be able to pick up loads of counters and dip crusader so I would have always refreshing counters, effectively doubling my actions... But again, up there was only one counter to pick from and it was rubbish lol